Comcast digital conversion - Argh!

[Brian Elfert]

Comcast forced everyone who has anything more than basic cable to digital cable back in June 2010. Now, they are converting all cable TV to digital. Cable ready TVs will no longer work.

Now everybody needs a cable box or DVR to receive cable TV as I am not aware of any TV with the proper tuner built-in. Comcast originally supplied Digital Transport Adapters so cable ready TVs could still get cable TV. It is basically a mini cable box. Comcast supplied these for free initially, but starting Jan 1st they are charging $1.99 a month. My parents only have basic cable for $12 a month so they have to pay at least $2 a month more. It won't break my parents, but it is just another money grab by Comcast.

There is no longer any way to receive cable TV without paying extra to Comcast to rent a cable box of some sort. Just one more reason why people hate Comcast. Comcast had sent me one of these Digital Transport Adapters about two weeks after I switched to digital cable TV. I already have a DVR from Comcast so I stuffed the thing in a closet. All of the sudden they started charging $1.99/month for it so I will take it to one of their service centers to give it back.

[Jason Beam]

Actually - any new TVs (and any made fairly recently, i'm not sure how far back) all have digital tuners in them and they can receive the same channels as the DTAs do. I have two TVs and a video card in my media server that have no problem getting all the basic cable channels.

Doesn't help people who didn't hop on the digital wave sooner, i know, but figured the information might be useful to others.

[Steve Meliza]

This happened to us recently. Comcast started encrypting all of the analog channels so you need the little box to view those channels. But it doesn't support HD so if you wanted to watch OPB or a local channel you have to watch a fuzzy SD. The only thing our Comcast basic cable gives us that I can't pick up over the air for free is the Discovery channel. Thank goodness I discovered that if I leave the Comcast box out of the loop and leave my TV directly connected like it was before that I get the Discovery channel on 110.2203 and OPB HD still comes in fine on 10.1.

I hate where Comcast is going with this, hate the extra remotes, and how much we have to pay to get basic cable that is mainly free content to begin with so we may drop them soon. Hopefully some day we can have a service where I pay for just the channels that I want to have.

[Brian Elfert]

Actually - any new TVs (and any made fairly recently, i'm not sure how far back) all have digital tuners in them and they can receive the same channels as the DTAs do. I have two TVs and a video card in my media server that have no problem getting all the basic cable channels.


Digital over the air is different than digital cable. I'm not aware of any TV that can directly receive Comcast digital cable without some of device from Comcast. Some TVs can take Cable cards, but you still have to get them from Comcast. There is a Unit Address and a MAC address on the Comcast devices. Comcast has to enter those addresses in their system to allow you to get cable TV service. No more getting free cable because the last tenant/owner had cable and it was never disconnected. Comcast doesn't even have to physically disconnect the cable anymore. They just remove the authorizations for your Comcast devices.

I would be interested in knowing of any model of TV that can receive Comcast digital cable without a cable card or anything extra.

[Fred Perreault]

Comcast... probably the worst company in America.... fees, service, customer support

[Dennis Peacock]

Please, let's make sure we do not carry this into a company bashing thread ok? Let's keep on topic of the OP.
Thank you for your cooperation.

[jim vancampen]

Comcast is evil, however i found by not using that silly little digital converter that wrecks your signal i get full HD. So, I just deleted a paragraph off my post. I have to stop with this word; monopoly.

[Curt Fuller]

Comcast... probably the worst company in America.... fees, service, customer support

Amen!!!

I moved my mother into an assisted living facility on 12-15. On 12-18 I began my efforts to cancel her Comcast service. There is no way to cancel service online. There is also no option to cancel service when you call the technical support or any of their other numbers. So after approximately 2 hours of being on hold I finally reached a "customer satisfaction" representative to cancel her service. I was told that because the service was not in my name I could not cancel it. So I handed the phone to my 84 year old mother to authorize the cancellation. When she handed the phone back to me I was told that the service would not be cancelled until I returned the cable box and modem to their facility, 40 some miles away. I told them I would not return it, that they could send me a box and I would box it up and mail it back to them at their cost. They agreed to do that but in the process of them trying to find out a mailing address to send the box we got disconnected. Before getting disconnected I had told them to just send it to the mailing address on her bill but the rep did not have that address. I assumed it was cancelled but then received a new bill last week. So I went through the process again only this time I was told they couldn't send a box to return their equipment and it had to be returned to their store. AND because it was now after Jan 10 she would be billed for another month's service. I basically told them that I would not pay for another month's service and that if they didn't take it off the bill I would gladly throw their equipment in the garbage. It is now my intent to also cancel my service and to convince everyone I can to also cancel their service. There are too may good competitors out there to deal with such poor service and rude treatment. I agree with Fred....probably the worst company in America.

[Jason Beam]

Digital over the air is different than digital cable. I'm not aware of any TV that can directly receive Comcast digital cable without some of device from Comcast. Some TVs can take Cable cards, but you still have to get them from Comcast. There is a Unit Address and a MAC address on the Comcast devices. Comcast has to enter those addresses in their system to allow you to get cable TV service. No more getting free cable because the last tenant/owner had cable and it was never disconnected. Comcast doesn't even have to physically disconnect the cable anymore. They just remove the authorizations for your Comcast devices.

I would be interested in knowing of any model of TV that can receive Comcast digital cable without a cable card or anything extra.

This is contrary to my experience. I have a Hauppage tv card in my media PC that decodes all of the lower comcast channels. At Fry's, they have told me several times that all of their TVs have digital tuners that can tune Comcast's cable signal. I misspoke earlier, I have one TV that is doing this, not two. It's a small Toshiba that we bought 2 years ago for my wife in the kitchen. I'm not sure the model number, but since it's 2 years old, I'm sure it's one of many that can tune my Comcast signal just fine without the little boxes they sent us.

[Steve Meliza]

I have two LCD TV's directly connected to Comcast cable and get all of the digital channels just fine. We have basic cable, you need a box to get the premium content because it is encrypted.

[Brian Elfert]

Comcast originally did not encrypt basic cable when they did the digital conversion. Now in my area they are going to go digital with everything including basic cable. The full conversion to digital cable is on different schedules depending on area of the country. In some areas Comcast converted everything to digital more than a year ago. I suspect if one can still get the lower channels that basic cable has yet to be converted to digital.

I am going to have to do some more research to find out if any TV really can can receive Comcast basic cable after Comcast converts to digital.

[David Weaver]

I think they went full digital here a while ago. As soon as I can find decent internet that's cheaper than comcast has it, I'm gone. I dumped expanded basic about 10 years ago after having a conversation with a representative, who informed me that a 33% rate increase was a good value because they added content....the oxygen channel and the travel channel. The reality of it at the time was probably that history, tlc, MTV and ESPN were doing a money grab and all of the semi learning channels were converting to trash programming. It was a good idea.

I still get a mailer all the time telling me how they have a special $160 a month deal. $160 a month is an ongoing budget for a medium sized car, and that's the "discount" rate until the trial period runs out, what's it after that, $200? plus whatever fees they want to add on all of that.

Hulu basic is free and netflix streaming is what? If there's not enough entertainment in there, then maybe I can find something to do with my own hands in the shop. Surely there's something around the house that could use attention, too.

No wonder everyone claims they have no money.

[Matt Meiser]

Where do you think you are going to get comparable Internet to what a cable company provides? Fact is they are the only game for over about 10-12mb in many,many areas. That said Amazon video does work well on 6. Haven't tried the others.

Also phone infrastructure is pretty bad in many many areas compared to cable. How do you think the cable companies are paying for those upgrades?

[Myk Rian]

I called Comcast last year to remind them I was paying for HD, but couldn't get it with the small box I had.
They shipped a DVR box, then added the rental on it. We called and complained. They removed the charge.

If you call and tell them AT&T U-verse is in your area, and they offer a great 2 year deal, you can get Comcast to cut their price.

[Jason Beam]

Comcast originally did not encrypt basic cable when they did the digital conversion. Now in my area they are going to go digital with everything including basic cable. The full conversion to digital cable is on different schedules depending on area of the country. In some areas Comcast converted everything to digital more than a year ago. I suspect if one can still get the lower channels that basic cable has yet to be converted to digital.

I am going to have to do some more research to find out if any TV really can can receive Comcast basic cable after Comcast converts to digital.

Pretty sure we were converted at least a year ago - i think more. They sent us two of those little boxes and I have them on my older TVs. But I bought the other two since then (the tv card and the other tv) and they get all the same channels as the two other TVs with the little boxes. So I suspect your understanding may be either outdated or regional.

For me, I can go down and pickup any new TV and get the lower Comcast Digital channels. I don't think any further changes are coming since they sent out those boxes already. I don't think I have the letter that came with those boxes anymore, but I vaguely recall something about them mentioning new televisions not requiring the box. It's possible they said something like "If you have a TV purchased prior to 200(something), you will need the converter box." or something to that effect. Fuzzy memory, but these newer devices I have work fine without the converter boxes.

[Myk Rian]

Where do you think you are going to get comparable Internet to what a cable company provides? Fact is they are the only game for over about 10-12mb in many,many areas.
I can get 20m U/D with my 4g phone. Now, if I really wanted to go through all that trouble.....:confused:
Comcast really is the way to go, and they know it.

[Matt Meiser]

I can get 20m U/D with my 4g phone. Now, if I really wanted to go through all that trouble.....:confused:
Comcast really is the way to go, and they know it.

Yeah but only so many gigs worth and you probably won't get that consistently day in/day out. Ive seen 4g on my Jetpack vary from 1mb to 15mb real world in my travels. 5 is typical. Watch a lot of streaming video and real quick you'll find out what a great deal Comcast is. Plus with Verizon(unless you get their HomeFusion service) you have a private IP which means things like an IP thermostat might not be accessible. HomeFusion is $120/mo for 30gb--not enough for regular streaming use. The base plan only gets you 10gb. Like you said, Comcast is the way to go. Partly because they are investing in all that technology.

[Steve Peterson]

Comcast... probably the worst company in America.... fees, service, customer support

I think it is a close tie with the cellular phone companies. All of them have a way of sucking about $100 per month from you with very little given in return.

Steve

[Matt Meiser]

Yep, building, maintaining and upgrading 100's of thousands of cell phone towers is practically free.

[Fred Perreault]

Matt, they build and maintain telecom infrastructure all across the world, as well as radio and television. The U.S. is behind almost all industrialized countries in terms of speed, service quality, customer service, competition, pricing and availability to the masses. Ours is a big country, so pervasive availability might not be a fair shot to take, but our regulatory agencies haven't shown themselves to be consumer oriented. I don't think most of us are looking for a free handout.... It is what it is, but there is major room for improvement I believe. :)

[Matt Meiser]

Improvement that takes money. Since our government isn't giving it to them, it has to come from somewhere.

[Jim Becker]

Virtually all "cable" providers have moved or are completing their move to all-digital distribution because it's more efficient. In most cases, a modern TV with a QAM tuner will be capable of tuning in the basic channels (generally locals) without a rental box from the provider. (There may be exceptions in some areas) These channels would typically be the same channels you could get OTA in your area. This is not something new...it's been going on for quite a few years now. I'm actually surprised there are still areas where analog signals are still on the cable...

Jim
SMC Member

----

That said, I'll reinforce Dennis's earlier comments. Please keep this discussion civil.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Brian Elfert]

I think it is a close tie with the cellular phone companies. All of them have a way of sucking about $100 per month from you with very little given in return.


If you don't think you're getting $100 worth of service from you cell phone company then why are you a customer with them? You obviously felt their service would be useful for you or you would not have signed up.

I have read various reports on the Internet of wireless phone companies making margins around 40%, but I don't believe the two big wireless companies report the amount of money they make from just wireless. They are part of larger companies where the rest of the company doesn't make as much money.

[Brian Elfert]

I'll have to check to see if QAM will really work with Comcast basic digital cable. I had heard that QAM would work with the old analog basic cable to get the local broadcast channels in HD, but I wasn't aware it would still work after the digital conversion.

[Curt Harms]

I think it is a close tie with the cellular phone companies. All of them have a way of sucking about $100 per month from you with very little given in return.

Steve

There are less expensive options out there for those with modest needs. They just don't pay for glossy magazine ads or Super Bowl commercials. I'm paying $3.34/month :).

[Brian Elfert]

There are less expensive options out there for those with modest needs. They just don't pay for glossy magazine ads or Super Bowl commercials. I'm paying $3.34/month :).

It is all in what one wants out of a wireless phone. For $3.34 a month you almost certainly don't have a smart phone and your phone probably has very few minutes and you carry it mostly for emergencies. I assume anyone paying $100 a month probably has a smart phone with data and a few number of voice minutes.

There are prepaid options for less than $50 a month that include unlimited data, unlimited texts, and unlimited minutes. I don't like prepaid plans simply because they offer no roaming in rural areas like is offered with Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, or Sprint. The times I need my phone the most are generally when I am rural areas. For most people a prepaid phone will work just fine.

I just have a simple flip phone with 200 or 250 minutes a month.

[Ole Anderson]

I have had Comcast for probably 25 years. Sure there have been frustrations at one time or another with lack of alternates, quality and speed, and price. But now I have what I consider a robust digital vendor meeting all of my in home digital needs. Cheap? No. I am at about $160 per month and I get stellar home phone service with the ability to link messages to my email, 20 mbps Internet speed, great email service, a HD digital DVR and hundreds of channels to choose from. Would I like to get all of that for $5 a month, of course. I was disappointed that it took them so long to finally install an RG13 drop to the house, but once they did, all of my quality problems went away. They do respond by dropping the rates a bit if you call them yearly threatening to go to Dish or what other alternates you have.

[Brian Elfert]

I'm happy with Comcast other than the price. I don't recall ever having an outage since going to digital cable and my Internet has worked flawlessly in the year I have had it.

One of the biggest costs for Comcast is programming. ESPN alone costs $55 a year or about $4.50 per customer per month.

[Greg Portland]

This happened to us recently. Comcast started encrypting all of the analog channels so you need the little box to view those channels.
The reason they did this was because you could order cable internet with no TV package and you'd get the analog channels for free (they had no way of turning off that feed).

[David Weaver]

Well, here they did an end around on that by making internet without basic cable the same price as internet with basic cable. $57 without, $45 with. Guess how much basic cable was .....$12.

[Steve Peterson]

It is all in what one wants out of a wireless phone. For $3.34 a month you almost certainly don't have a smart phone and your phone probably has very few minutes and you carry it mostly for emergencies. I assume anyone paying $100 a month probably has a smart phone with data and a few number of voice minutes.

I pay about $100 per year for a pre-paid plan on an old phone that I use mostly for emergencies. I see many people around me that have pland starting around $40 per month. The required data plan adds $30. Unlimited texting adds another $10. Add in taxes plus a few other features and it is approaching $100 per month.

Steve

[Brian Elfert]

The reason they did this was because you could order cable internet with no TV package and you'd get the analog channels for free (they had no way of turning off that feed).

The real reason Comcast is going digital is because analog channels take more bandwidth on the system. They can fit more digital channels in the same bandwidth. After Comcast upgraded our system to digital for the channels other than basic service they added a whole slew of HD channels with the extra bandwidth.

[Curt Harms]

It is all in what one wants out of a wireless phone. For $3.34 a month you almost certainly don't have a smart phone and your phone probably has very few minutes and you carry it mostly for emergencies. I assume anyone paying $100 a month probably has a smart phone with data and a few number of voice minutes.

There are prepaid options for less than $50 a month that include unlimited data, unlimited texts, and unlimited minutes. I don't like prepaid plans simply because they offer no roaming in rural areas like is offered with Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, or Sprint. The times I need my phone the most are generally when I am rural areas. For most people a prepaid phone will work just fine.

I just have a simple flip phone with 200 or 250 minutes a month.

I get 100 minutes for $10. I don't have coverage issues but I'm in a populated area. I've been in S.W. Wisconsin and coverage was indeed spotty, they use AT&T s gophone (prepaid) network. And right now I don't need a smart phone. The company I use does offer sms and data plans but I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it.

[Eric DeSilva]

Fred, your conclusions are highly debatable. I would make the following observations: (i) the US has a lower HHI for mobile services than any other OECD country, which means the market is less concentrated here and more competitive; (ii) we are leading in LTE deployment, which means--if you are willing to pay--you have access to the highest speed and quality services available; (iii) in many other countries, wireless services are government subsidized, and here services are provided through private investment (I realize that there was a $2B broadband stimulus fund, but major carriers didn't even apply for that money); (iv) in most other countries, subscribers pay the full cost of handsets, whereas here they are subsidized or even free based on signing a contract; and (v) most other countries subscriber to a "calling party pays" model, which means that mobile users do not pay for incoming calls. I would also note that the US has a mobile penetration rate that is pretty high, although not the highest--countries with really poor landline infrastructure tend to lead there, but that isn't necessarily a good thing.

[Jim Becker]

I'll have to check to see if QAM will really work with Comcast basic digital cable. I had heard that QAM would work with the old analog basic cable to get the local broadcast channels in HD, but I wasn't aware it would still work after the digital conversion.

QAM "is" digital...

[Jason Roehl]

I don't know how my wife does it, but she does it. Our first bill of the year arrived from Comcast with several rate increases, including a change from free to $1.99/mo for each of our two DTA converters we got several years ago because Comcast switched to all-digital, and we still had two analog TVs (in addition to one HD screen which had an HD/DVR box). Well, a couple years ago, we upgraded one of our analog TVs to a small LCD, so we got another HD/DVR box for it as well, meaning one of the little DTA boxes just sat unused. So my wife hauled that box down to the local office to return it. Apparently, she was far from the first by a long shot. Then, not only did they remove the charge for it, they knocked off $20/mo for a year, and took off the rental fee for the second DVR for 6 months.

But, I'm with Matt--overall, I've been happy with the service I've gotten from Comcast--it's been reliable, and the internet has been FAST. The speed tests I run occasionally typically come back in the 16-17 Mbps range.

I haven't tried to hook a digital TV directly to the cable to see what I can get. I may have to do that. I have heard that there is a portion of the signal that is unscrambled (basic cable), so a standard digital tuner (QAM) will pick it up. The OTA tuner for digital signals is the ATSC standard, and the old OTA signal standard is known as NTSC in the U.S.

[Brian Elfert]

QAM "is" digital...

Yes, but digital cable and digital TV are not necessarily the same thing. There are indications Comcast may not be encrypting the basic channels, but they certainly are for the non-basic channels. Comcast has to authorize the equipment in their system in order to get the full digital cable package. Digital cable equipment has both a unit address and a MAC address. I'm not sure which they use for authorization.

I bought basic cable when I moved into my house in 2001. I figured out about 4 years later that Comcast never installed a filter on the line so I could get all of the cable channels. When Comcast did the digital conversion in 2010 I purchased the Digital Starter package from Comcast to keep the extra channels. It is much more difficult to steal cable TV now since you need to have equipment that is authorized with Comcast. When I was in college the dorm adviser had cable TV in her apartment in the dorm and the cable ran outside. That cable had so many splitters on it I am surprised anyone got decent reception. A bunch of the rooms had coax cable running in through windows. I was surprised the college didn't put a stop to it.

[Jim Becker]

QAM is the "standard" that most cable providers (plus VZ FiOS) use for digital channels on their systems. Some put two channels on a single QAM; some put three, depending on whether or not HD is involved and if they are compressing. (Comcast tends to compress HD, AFAIK) Encryption (scrambling) is a different issue and as you certainly know, you need "the box" to deal with that. But if QAM channels are not encrypted, a current generation receiver that supports QAM should be able to tune them in. The biggest hassle with using QAM tuners to get these signals is that the providers occasionally move things around which then requires you to re-scan for available channels...

[Brian Elfert]

I may have access to a TV in the next few months that has a QAM tuner. It will be interesting to see if it works with Comcast basic cable with no box.

Comcast already has a screwy channel numbering system if one has a cable ready TV with the old analog basic cable.

[Eric DeSilva]

Boxee (an over-the-top set top box) objected when cable companies started encrypting the basic tier--the resolution is described below...

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/14/fcc-to-allow-encryption-of-basic-cable-with-a-few-strings-that/

[Brian Elfert]

I read that Engadget article. You gotta love the people complaining that they can't get their basic cable on their SEVEN televisions. How much money have these people spent on buying TVs? I have ONE television in my house. I live alone, but I couldn't see having seven televisions even with a large family.

[Eric DeSilva]

Eh, I just saw one of those HGTV rooms-of-the-rich-and-shameless where a guy was showing off his $6M home theater. It's all relative.

[Kevin W Johnson]

The real reason Comcast is going digital is because analog channels take more bandwidth on the system. They can fit more digital channels in the same bandwidth. After Comcast upgraded our system to digital for the channels other than basic service they added a whole slew of HD channels with the extra bandwidth.

Nope. They could change the signals to digital to allow more bandwidth without encrypting those signals. They encrypted them because for years Comcast has been too lazy to actually disconnect service to houses and apartments when someone moves out. The next person moves in and has cable, so they never call and "connect" service. Comcast claims these people have been "stealing" service. Nope again, they are not stealing something that comcast gave them by not turning it off.

I switched to DirecTV after Comcast did their "upgrade" in my area. Want your HD channels back that your already paying for? Ok, that'll be 16.95 per month, per tv. Prior to their "upgrade", I had three DVR's (one a lifetime sub TIVO), and two tuner cards in PC's. All of that was rendered useless. Worse yet, the set-top boxes that they sent people, the one that would atleast show you your HD channels in SD form, 90% of them (of the people i know) were bad out of the box. The dino's they replaced them with wouldn't even show you the HD channels in SD anymore.

The local Comcast offices were swamped for weeks with people turning in equipment and cancelling service.

[Matt Meiser]

Nope again, they are not stealing something that comcast gave them by not turning it off.

So then I assume you wouldn't mind me taking your grill off your deck. After all, you didn't put it away so its not stealing.

[Kevin W Johnson]

So then I assume you wouldn't mind me taking your grill off your deck. After all, you didn't put it away so its not stealing.

Two totally different things. If Comcast is too lazy to turn the service off to a location, the people moving in aren't stealing anything.

Just like if I move out, and don't take my grill with me, the people moving in didn't steal it, did they?

[Brian Elfert]

So, if I run an extension cord to your house and plug it into your outside outlet I'm not stealing electricity? You didn't have it locked, so I guess it was free for me to use.

There are many examples of neighbors splitting one cable feed to feed more than house or apartment. This is clearly stealing and the new digital system stops this. I suppose the neighbors could just pay for an extra cable box, but at least Comcast gets some revenue. Even if it was simple laziness on Comcast's part by not disconnecting cable feeds now they don't have to physically disconnect lines to shut off service. Not everyone who got service for "free" would pay for cable, but I'm sure a significant number will.

[Kevin W Johnson]

You guys, your analogies are flawed, plain and simple.

If YOU run and extension cord, YOU'RE connecting yourself. If you split your neighbors feed, you're connecting yourself. If you run a line out to the corner and tap in, you're connecting yourself. In those cases, yes you are stealing. If comcast doesn't disconnect the feed, it's on them, at that point they are giving it to you. Call the power company and turn off service, your lights are going out. Call and turn off the water, and see if you can still take a shower the next day.

[Matt Meiser]

It doesn't matter how you argue it its theft plain and simple.

[Kevin W Johnson]

It doesn't matter how you argue it its theft plain and simple.


Look at it how you wish. EVERY other "utility" or service that I'm aware of actually comes to the site to turn off a disconnected service. You can't just leave a service connected and then claim the new tenants/owners are stealing it.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, I personally don't care as I pay for mine. But for Comcast to claim people are stealing service that they are too lazy to turn off is wrong as well.

[Brian Elfert]

It essentially costs Comcast nothing to have a non-paying user on the system unless that user would otherwise pay for the service. One would assume Comcast only pays ESPN and other content providers based on the number of paying customers. Comcast doesn't pay those independent contractors much so it wouldn't cost them much to physically disconnect service.

Other utilities have real costs if they don't disconnect services due to non-payment. Power and water to a house typically aren't turned off when it is sold. The billing is simply transferred to the new owner.