Problems with my honing

[Gabe Shackle]

I've been trying to use the Veritas MKII honing guide for a while now and I'm consistently getting a skewed result. I've tried two different guides (amazing customer support from Veritas/Lee Valley btw) and have determined the problem is definitely due to something I'm doing wrong. The attached image shows how it looks when I hone no matter what I'm working on. The red area is where it always ends up when I begin honing. Chisels, plane blades, different brands and sizes, I always end up with that right side skew.

Any tips on how to correct this or what the cause might be?

[Terry Beadle]

The problem can be one of two causes or both. Nice to narrow it down huh! Hoot!

If it's the guide that's causing the issue, you are not getting the chisel or plane blade in the jig square. Some thing is moving the blade out of square relative to the roller. The jig does not have a really good gripping system on the blade so you have to be a bit gentle with the blade sharpening. Always check the blade after you have started the sharpening. I use a black majic marker on the cutting edge bevel to check to see if I'm square. Just a couple of lite strokes on the stone will show if you are square or not. A gentle tap on one side or the other with usually correct any movement that occurred when you tightened down the clamping screw.

The second possible cause if un-even pressure applied by you. This is a blessing and a curse. You can use extra pressure on one side or the other of a blade to be sharpened to get the cutting edge square to the side of the blade or chisel. That's the blessing. The curse is if you are not applying equal pressure on a chisel center, the sharpening process will remove more metal from the side you are putting too much or uneven pressure on.

So when you are using the jig, be aware that you have to balance the pressure to the center on a chisel. You can put more pressure and strokes on one edge or the other of a plane blade to give it a curve so that the blade won't leave plane-ing tracks on the wood. This is almost a requirement for good smoothing plane blades...(See David Charlesworth's great books and video's on this topic ).

Enjoy the shavings !

[Gary Viggers]

It looks like you've got a great camber. Unfortunately it's only on one side of the iron :(

Make sure the iron is squarely in the honing guide. Any burrs on the sliding blade-registration jig? Is it tightened correctly?

Are your stones flat?

As far as technique, with the iron in the guide (bevel down), you are probably putting more pressure on the right side of the iron. Either work on putting even pressure for a straight edge (fingers close to the corners of the iron), or put all of the pressure on the left side to get a symmetrical camber to fix the iron pictured.

[Jussi Auvinen]

I think you are clamping the blade wrong. You need to advance both of the screws equally or the blade will be skewed.

Cranking down one screw first and then the second will cause the blade to skew. Advance equally in small incraments.

[Jim Koepke]

Gabe,

Your location isn't listed in your profile. You may live near another member who would be willing to help figure out what is happening in person.

These kinds of problems are often easier to see first hand rather than via keyboard.

There are also a lot of unknowns in the mix.

What kind of sharpening system are you using?

Have you tried with the same results on different grits?

Do you have a square and caliper or other ways to check the set up of the honing guide?

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

I think you are clamping the blade wrong. You need to advance both of the screws equally or the blade will be skewed.

Cranking down one screw first and then the second will cause the blade to skew. Advance equally in small incraments.

That could be the culprit.

jtk

[Bruce Haugen]

I think you are clamping the blade wrong. You need to advance both of the screws equally or the blade will be skewed.

Cranking down one screw first and then the second will cause the blade to skew. Advance equally in small incraments.

I think Jussi has got it right, based on doing that same exact thing myself. I take care of that problem by holding the clamping bar tightly against the blade while advancing the screws until they are equally snug on both sides of the blade. Only then can you be reasonably sure that the blade is held correctly. Also make sure that the blade is tight up against the side of the angle setting device.

[Sean Hughto]

Think of the guide as maintaining the bevel angle, and you be responsible for the blade angle. Look at the scratches after a pass or two and adjust the chisel and/or your finger pressure and then take another pass or two and check again. It takes only a few seconds of effort to get a straight even removal.

[Dale Cruea]

I have a MK II also. I used to get the same result.
First, each time I insert a blase I use a .002" feeler to make sure the side is registered the same every time.

The biggest problem I found is that the LV honing guides will not stay parallel when you use the micro bevel knob.
On a 2 3/8" blade it raises the left side about .003" or a little more.
LV says I am putting too much pressure on the guide. This is a free standing measurement.
I quit using the micro bevel knob and now my blades stay flat across the cutting edge.

Check to insure that the blade is registered correctly and don't use the micro bevel knob.

[Gabe Shackle]

Great input! Looks like I have some experimenting to do. I suspect it's a combination of the tightening and finger pressure.

[Dan Hahr]

Put a drop of oil on the threads and tighten as much as you can. Sometimes i think those gripping surfaces sbould be coated with a fine abrasive or knurrled or something.

[Don Jarvie]

Suggest you you a hollow grind and freehand. It takes some practice but it will eliminate your problem.

[Jim Koepke]

Suggest you you a hollow grind and freehand. It takes some practice but it will eliminate your problem.

Having a hollow grind to start does make free handing much easier, but it also requires a grinder. Not sure if the OP has a grinder.

jtk

[Joel Goodman]

I think you are clamping the blade wrong. You need to advance both of the screws equally or the blade will be skewed.

Cranking down one screw first and then the second will cause the blade to skew. Advance equally in small incraments.

+1 -- if the tension on the clamping screws is uneven the blade will tend to skew in the guide. Make sure they're equally tight and as said above tighten each screw a little at a time, alternating between them.

[Jason Coen]

I fought the same problem. Never could figure it out, so I finally gave up and switched to an Eclipse-style guide for 99% of the times I use a guide. I now only use the Mk. II when sharpening skew blades.

[Mike Cogswell]

I think Jussi has got it right, based on doing that same exact thing myself. I take care of that problem by holding the clamping bar tightly against the blade while advancing the screws until they are equally snug on both sides of the blade. Only then can you be reasonably sure that the blade is held correctly. Also make sure that the blade is tight up against the side of the angle setting device.


Me three. The Veritas jig is pretty sensitive to unequal pressure from the clamp screws. I had the same problem at first, but quickly found that it went away if I was careful to equalize the screws. If they aren't equal you are effectively tilting the bottom of the jig to one side relative to the top, hence the skewed bevel.

I also found that some chisels' faces are not perfectly parallel to their backs, causing a skew to the bevel. In that case you need to tap the chisel handle over to get the bevel straight.

[Mike Cogswell]

<snip>
The biggest problem I found is that the LV honing guides will not stay parallel when you use the micro bevel knob.
On a 2 3/8" blade it raises the left side about .003" or a little more.
LV says I am putting too much pressure on the guide. This is a free standing measurement.
I quit using the micro bevel knob and now my blades stay flat across the cutting edge.

Check to insure that the blade is registered correctly and don't use the micro bevel knob.

I also had a problem with the micro bevel knob. Once I figured out that I had to tighten the screws equally I was consistantly getting nice square bevels - until I turned the knob to create a micro bevel. I would consistantly create the micro bevel at an angle to the primary bevel. Measuring carefully with my calipers I discovered, as you have, that the roller moved more on one side when rotated to a new knob position. Lee Valley promptly sent me a new roller which seems to have solved the problem since the bevels are now parallel in all four knob settings.

[Charlie Stanford]

I've been trying to use the Veritas MKII honing guide for a while now and I'm consistently getting a skewed result. I've tried two different guides (amazing customer support from Veritas/Lee Valley btw) and have determined the problem is definitely due to something I'm doing wrong. The attached image shows how it looks when I hone no matter what I'm working on. The red area is where it always ends up when I begin honing. Chisels, plane blades, different brands and sizes, I always end up with that right side skew.

Any tips on how to correct this or what the cause might be?

If you want to use a jig then simpler is better. Get a side clamping guide for 14 measly bucks and get on with your woodworking:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=jig

Jigs that clamp at top and bottom are conceptually poor designs. You need to hone square to the sides of the chisel or plane iron and then introduce whatever curvature you need for your plane irons. A side clamping guide with one, narrow wheel allows you do to both operations without any problems.

[Jason Coen]

Simpler is better. Get a side clamping guide for 14 measly bucks and get on with your woodworking:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=jig

Jigs that clamp at top and bottom are conceptually poor designs. You need to hone square to the sides of the chisel or plane iron and then introduce whatever curvature you need for your plane irons. A side clamping guide with one, narrow wheel allows you do to both operations without any problems.

I agree with Charlie.

Dogs and cats living together, story at 11:00....

:eek:

[Jim Matthews]

I've migrated to grinding, sharpening and honing freehand so please take my suggestion with a grain of salt.

I suggest you begin each session using a sandpaper on substrate method, to establish your alignment only.
The scratch pattern shown on the previous bevel will alert you to alignment problems.

Once you're satisfied that you have set things square, you can progress through the sequence of stones.

FWIW - I saw a demonstration using the same guide and a couple Shapton stones where all the honing was done on the PULL stroke.
The demonstrator watched the deposition of metal (seen as a black streak) as it appeared and made small corrections until the
black mark was the full width of the iron. It's the reverse of how I set my plane irons, but the results were plain.

It's also possible to gauge your progress using a sharpie marker on the bevel edge. I don't see well anymore, so that's less obvious to me.
If you can see the edge of your plane under a bright light, it's pretty obvious. Nothing wrong with the LV guides, it's like any other tool...

practice makes perfect.

[Kees Heiden]

Another vote against the LV Mk II jig. Beautifully made, but in use it is an overcomplicated, heavy, slow and clumsy tool. The microbevel knob didn't work on mine either. A replacement: same skewed results. And indeed it is very easy to knock the blade to be sharpened out of square, or to clamp it out of square. Putting the blade in always took too much time. And when you turn over the contraption to polish the face of the blade, it feels way too heavy and unbalanced. I sold it and used the Eclipse for a while. Now freehand honing, which is much nicer anyway.

[Robert Nease]

I have the MKII with the skew attachment, as well as the side clamping jig, modified according to the video uploaded by Deneb Puchalski on the LN You tube channel. I also have the Jet wet grinder with all of the attachments. I cannot remember the last time I used the Jet, but I consistently use both of the hand jigs. I like them both, and agree that you have to be careful with the MKII when you are clamping in the blade. I use a small square to check that the blade is in correctly, and use very little pressure on the "push", and a little more on the "pull". I'm no expert, but I get great results with both jigs, sandpaper (180 grit 3M gold, self adhesive) and a surface plate for initial honing of the primary bevel, and waterstones from 1000 grit to 8000 grit for the micro bevel. I agree with Chris Schwartz, who believes in sharpening frequently. If necessary, I finish up with .25 micron diamond paste on a strop. IMHO, the biggest problem comes from not maintaining the flatness of the stones, and the next biggest issue comes from improper clamping pressure on the MKII. And the third issue is using too much pressure on any of the guides or freehand, whatever poison you choose. If the user allows the abrasive to function, very little pressure is needed to quickly get a burr, and very little effort is required for the micro bevel and polishing. I could have saved myself a lot of bucks and just bought a few stones, a little sandpaper, and the side clamping jig. I think you get to excellent sharpening, whatever your methods, the same way you get to Carnegie Hall - practice, practice, practice. It takes a really long time to wear out a chisel or plane blade by honing.:D

[Jussi Auvinen]

Bah...I say. :rolleyes:

If he already has the MKII why swich methods? The veritas honing guide works perfectly once you learn to use it properly and understand its limitations.

Stick with what you have and learn to use it properly before jumping to another method.
If it doesnt work for you despite the practise&thought you put into it, then try something else.

[glenn bradley]

Great input! Looks like I have some experimenting to do. I suspect it's a combination of the tightening and finger pressure.

I'm betting you are on to it. In the case of the MK-II the top of the chisel blade is part of the registration point(s). Some chisels have irregular or non-parallel tops. Whatever it is the result is misaligned contact. You don't need to have a death-grip on the chisel (that could cause misalignment while in motion) when sharpening so relax a bit. Obviously a flat abrasive is also a must. Keep the faith, it will come.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Not to poo-poo the original posters problem, but how out of square is the finished honing? I doubt I have any tool in my shop that's *perfectly* square. With plane blades, as long as a tap from the hammer can get the plane cutting square, I go with it, and chisels, I usually don't worry too much as long as they're square enough to steer straight when chopping.

[David Weaver]

I agree with Charlie.

Dogs and cats living together, story at 11:00....

:eek:

I also agree with this. With a side clamper, the issue is fixed simply by putting more finger pressure on the side that's not getting enough cut. Eventually you have to rely on your own touch to hone things, if for no other reason that it opens up the world of sharpening anything by hand. Scissors, knives, mower blades, carving tools...a huge contraption like the LV guide is something to work away from not to work with.

[Jim Koepke]

Amazing how many right ways there are to sharpen. If you already have a set up and you are just getting started at sharpening, stay with what you have. Getting the bugs out of what you have will go a long way in teaching what can go wrong and how to correct it.

If you can not get a sharp edge with what you have, buying more stuff you don't know how to use will not help.

That is just one reason for my feeling that it is best to first learn how to get blades sharp before a person should jump into multiple bevels and ruler tricks. If a person hasn't mastered making a sharp edge secondary bevels or the ruler trick isn't the magic bullet to make the difference.

Reminds me of a conversation many years ago with a shop teacer about tool holders for sharpening. He told me about an evaluation of holders, not sure if the MK II was available at the time. He said the conclusion was the cheapest, Eclipse style, turned out to be judged the best overall.

My holder is a Frankenholder made from a roller and a holder from the Mk II power sharpening system. It is mostly used to quickly establish a new bevel.

For free hand sharpening a hollow grind is wonderful. Presently my grinder hasn't yet been built. So sad me has to sharpen with a flat bevel until the time comes to allow me to build a stand for my grind stone.

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

Make sure there is no oil or lubricants on the clamping surfaces. Spend some time ensuring that the blade is centered (use the scale). Carefully tighten knobs equally. Use small square to check blade squareness to jig. Wiggle the blade to make sure it doesn't move (my big issue). Take a couple strokes and check. Check frequently as you go.

The MK II is absolutely repeatable is you are fussy about checking center & square and tighten well. The eclipse-style jig is easier to get going but harder to make absolutely repeatable unless you are equally fussy about setting your depth with the jig and blade held at those exact angles while tighten. The eclipse is easier to get going if you are not trying to repeat something already done. I tend to use the eclipse for experimentation and the MK II for production and skews. The MK II is the only choice for skews.

As for the advice to go freehand: I agree but given the tremors in my hand it is one battle that I choose not to fight at this time.

[Jim Koepke]

My feeling is freehand sharpening is preferred by those of us too cheap (frugal) to buy a holder or too lazy to set it up.

Before anyone gets mad at me, those are my reasons, yours may be different.

Of course, with my fingers getting a bit more temperamental from age and arthritis a better holder may soon be on order for me.

jtk

[Harold Burrell]

Amazing how many right ways there are to sharpen. If you already have a set up and you are just getting started at sharpening, stay with what you have. Getting the bugs out of what you have will go a long way in teaching what can go wrong and how to correct it.



Agreed. You can spend a LOT of money chasing down the "right method"...before you realize the problem was you.

DAMHIKT...

[bob blakeborough]

I use the Veritas MKII ever since I began sharpening and it works great for me, although I did have the same issues as you in the very beginning.

Once the blade is registered using the bevel angle attachment and properly tightened down (equal increments on each knob), I will always just take one or two quick swipes and examine how even the bevel is. If it looks slightly skewed, I just use a small hammer and tap the blade lightly one way or the other in the guide and test again. At first I fiddled with it more, but now I have a feel for it I often never need to make adjustments, and when I do, it takes just a couple light taps and I am good to go...

This guide works very well if you take just a bit of time to learn it. That's no different than any sharpening system though. I just really like the repeatability of the guide...

[Jim Matthews]

Agreed. You can spend a LOT of money chasing down the "right method"...before you realize the problem was you.

DAMHIKT...

HB, I would claim that we must be related, but you're too good looking for my side of the family tree...

I find it frustrating to see so many of us buying the next gizmo but skipping out on meaningful instruction.
I would caution anyone that sees the result of a sharpening session as unacceptable to test the edge, first.

If it cuts well, and is manageable - it's good enough.

[Derek Cohen]

I've been trying to use the Veritas MKII honing guide for a while now and I'm consistently getting a skewed result. I've tried two different guides (amazing customer support from Veritas/Lee Valley btw) and have determined the problem is definitely due to something I'm doing wrong. The attached image shows how it looks when I hone no matter what I'm working on. The red area is where it always ends up when I begin honing. Chisels, plane blades, different brands and sizes, I always end up with that right side skew.


Any tips on how to correct this or what the cause might be?


Hi Gabe


I will weigh in on this.


It is an interesting thread, with many relevant comments about honing and honing guides in general, but I am not sure whether they help you with your difficulty.


It is important to recognise the obvious from the outset - a honing guide is simply a way to hold a blade for repeatable angles. It does not replace your hands. Even with guides with wide wheels designed to prevent tilting the blade, it is possible to do so with enough downforce at one side. That is probably what you are seeing considering that you have been through two guides so far. My experience with the Mk II goes back to pre-production testing, and I have replaced the wheels once (my fault), however both set ups have worked perfectly. My preference is to freehand sharpen on a hollow grind, but I bring out the Mk II as soon as I hone a micro secondary bevel for BU plane blades.


Think of the MK II (and any guide) as an extension of your hand. Where you place your fingers for pressure holding the blade down will affect where the blade is abraded. Spread the pressure evenly for an even grind. Deliberately press down on one corner, and then the other, to add camber.


The Mk II and the Eclipse honing guides essentially do the same thing, that is, hold a blade. They do this differently, with the Mk II clamping vertically and the Eclipse from the side. There are pros and cons for each, but I shall not go into this here, save to note that the Mk II is the only guide on the market (that I am aware of) that has a built in facility for a micro secondary bevel. It is this feature that appears to be causing you the most grief.


The reason I think that Customer Support is likely correct is that honing the secondary bevel is more susceptible to finger pressure as the edge involved is considerably thinner than a primary bevel. That is, you can get away with using poorer technique when honing the primary bevel, but this will likely show up with the secondary bevel.


The good news is that all this is correctable. There are two recommendations.


The first is that you need to practice finger pressure:


Centre pressure ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/straight.jpg


Side pressure ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/camberingstraight.jpg


The second technique is really more about achieving a square edge, per se, as opposed to a square secondary bevel. This has to do with the guide holding the blade parallel to the honing medium. The Mk II requires even adjustment, as described by others, by doing up the screws a little at a time, back-and-forth between sides, rather than one side fully then the other only. Having got this far, note that adjustment is possible still.


My analogy is that the screws are like a steering wheel. You steer the blade by adjusting the tension in the screws. Begin by checking how square the edge is progressing after a few strokes. If the edge is out-of-square, loosen the side with the larger taper by a few mm, and tighten the opposing screw by the same amount. Check again after a few more strokes. Repeat if necessary.


Let us know how you get on.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

I've been trying to use the Veritas MKII honing guide for a while now and I'm consistently getting a skewed result. I've tried two different guides (amazing customer support from Veritas/Lee Valley btw) and have determined the problem is definitely due to something I'm doing wrong. The attached image shows how it looks when I hone no matter what I'm working on. The red area is where it always ends up when I begin honing. Chisels, plane blades, different brands and sizes, I always end up with that right side skew.

Any tips on how to correct this or what the cause might be?

Gabe, I'd like to reiterate points worth making more stridently: a jig should offer as a basic feature the ability to keep the cutting edge square to the sides of the item being honed. It should be mindless. Squareness should be inherent in the jig! It should take some overt and conscious action to hone out of square. It shouldn't take a lot of finesse, deftness, touch, experience, stopping to check this and that, internet pictorials, involvement in prototype design, etc. to maintain square. Otherwise, what's the point in using a jig at all? The technique being suggested by more than a few folks is more involved than simply going freehand in a grind and hone scenario. It is certainly more involved than buying a $12 side clamping jig which will eliminate the problem altogether. Rarely in woodworking does a complete about-face cost so little. I understand from your post that you literally must have shop full of skewed cutters of all ilks. This is absurd on its face. It's OK to quit banging your head against the wall. It really is. Relief is available.

[Paul McGaha]

Gabe, I'd like to reiterate points worth making more stridently: a jig should offer as a basic feature the ability to keep the cutting edge square to the sides of the item being honed. It should be mindless. Squareness should be inherent in the jig. It should take some overt and conscious action to hone out of square. It shouldn't take a lot of finesse, deftness, touch, experience, stopping to check this and that, internet pictorials, etc. to maintain square. Otherwise, what's the point in using a jig at all? The technique being suggested by more than a few folks is more involved than simply going freehand in a grind and hone scenario. It is certainly more involved than buying a $12 side clamping jig which will eliminate the problem altogether. Rarely in woodworking does a complete about-face cost so little. I understand from your post that you literally must have shop full of skewed cutters of all ilks. This is absurd on its face. It's OK to quite banging your head against the wall. It really is. Relief is available.

I agree with Charlie. I've used both the Veritas MKII and the Side Clamping Guide from Lie Nielsen, Woodcraft, etc. and I prefer the Side Clamping Guide used along with the angle setting jig suggested by Lie Nielsen. The jig is a big help in repeating the sharpening angles and the guide holds the chisels and plane irons well.

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/pdf/AngleSettingJig.pdf

Just my $.02.

PHM

[Derek Cohen]

Gabe, I'd like to reiterate points worth making more stridently: a jig should offer as a basic feature the ability to keep the cutting edge square to the sides of the item being honed. It should be mindless. Squareness should be inherent in the jig. It should take some overt and conscious action to hone out of square. It shouldn't take a lot of finesse, deftness, touch, experience, stopping to check this and that, internet pictorials, etc. to maintain square. Otherwise, what's the point in using a jig at all? The technique being suggested by more than a few folks is more involved than simply going freehand in a grind and hone scenario. It is certainly more involved than buying a $12 side clamping jig which will eliminate the problem altogether. Rarely in woodworking does a complete about-face cost so little. I understand from your post that you literally must have shop full of skewed cutters of all ilks. This is absurd on its face. It's OK to quite banging your head against the wall. It really is. Relief is available.

Charlie

You are preaching again rather than teaching.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

"My analogy is that the screws are like a steering wheel. You steer the blade by adjusting the tension in the screws. Begin by checking how square the edge is progressing after a few strokes. If the edge is out-of-square, loosen the side with the larger taper by a few mm, and tighten the opposing screw by the same amount. Check again after a few more strokes. Repeat if necessary."

My gosh. Two years with this jig and I never realized that was my problem. I have this issue about 10% of the time I use the jig. Thanks for the tip.

[Charlie Stanford]

Charlie

You are preaching again rather than teaching.

Regards from Perth

Derek

And you're becoming the reliable apologist for everything Lee Valley. That jig is a trainwreck. Plaintiff's Exhibit A in the case against dude ranch, Rube Goldberg woodworking. Loosening and retightening and readjusting, rechecking, loosening, tightening, readjusting. Are you serious? Doesn't pass the smell test, brother. Really doesn't.

[Derek Cohen]

Charlie

"Apologist"? Where was the apology? Informant ... educationalist ... teacher ... You should try this some time. :)

Want a lesson on the Eclipse? I could do that as well, but the Mk II was the topic here, specifically trouble shooting.

See me after class.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

Derek, the precise point is that it doesn't (the Eclipse) really need a lesson. I'm sure you could figure out a way to star in one though.

It is just such an elegant and classic design that any questions are answered by looking at the bleeding thing.

[Derek Cohen]

But Charles, Gabe was not asking about the Eclipse.

Try to stay focussed ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

No, but Gabe was provided with a $12 solution to a bad design and a shop full of unusable tools and I feel really, really good about it. Hell, he can contact me offline and I'll buy him one myself. Gabe?

[Derek Cohen]

Let me ask you a question Charles. How many steps does it take to do a secondary bevel on the Eclipse having used it to hone/grind the primary bevel?

And what is required on the Mk II?

Oh .. that's two questions. I hope you don't mind.

Oh, one more thing, for your essay offering "a jig should offer as a basic feature the ability to keep the cutting edge square to the sides of the item being honed. It should be mindless.", you get 1/10. The correct answer is that a jig (guide) should ensure repeatability of the bevel angle. Nothing more.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Fournier]

I have a LV bench grinder rest on both sides of my grinder, one is 20 years old one is 2 years old. LV part #05D13.02. This fixture is about as uncomplicated as LV gets these days and it works. If you use this rest to hollow grind your chisels and plane irons you are well on your way to a sharp tool. Once you have a square hollow grind on your chosen cutting tool you have a surface that will reference itself to the honing stones, the hollow grind will only touch the stones at the front and back of the bevel. Don't even attempt to hone the freshly ground tool, just put it on the stone using both of your hands and FEEL the bevel on the stone. Lift the bevel off the stone at the front and the back and on your way in between FEEL the bevel when it is resting both front and back - that's the sweet spot. Develop this muscle memory or touch and you are almost ready to freehand hone. First make sure that your honing stones are properly prepared and well wetted (assuming water stones). Now set your freshly ground bevel on the stone, register the front and back contact points and slowly move the cutter up and down your stone while maintaining the two contact points. You will ultimately learn to present your bevel to the stone in a figure 8 pattern but save that for later. After several strokes, stop, wipe off the bevel and look at it. Take note of the freshly honed surfaces and if you are pushing too hard on one corner etc. adjust your pressure for the next round. All the while you are ensuring that the front and back of the bevel are both contacting the stones. Once you have honed the entire cutting edge, and I mean as soon as you have the entire edge honed, move onto the next finer stone. Take the time to ensure that you have a good slippery slurry so that the tool doesn't drag or chatter and this freehand honing will quickly make sense to you. If you have ground with a guide, your bevel can now act as your honing guide. Learning to touch and feel what you are doing is so critical to any craft. I would consider a honing guide to be like training wheels on a bicycle, the intent is to lose the training wheels and learn to balance - true freedom! As you do more honing you will realise that less is more and you will end up with sharper tools in less time.

Now back to the Derek the sage and Charlie the soap box preacher saga...

[Harold Burrell]

That jig is a trainwreck.

Personally...I like mine.

[Charlie Stanford]

Let me ask you a question Charles. How many steps does it take to do a secondary bevel on the Eclipse having used it to hone/grind the primary bevel?

And what is required on the Mk II?

Oh .. that's two questions. I hope you don't mind.

Oh, one more thing, for your essay offering "a jig should offer as a basic feature the ability to keep the cutting edge square to the sides of the item being honed. It should be mindless.", you get 1/10. The correct answer is that a jig (guide) should ensure repeatability of the bevel angle. Nothing more.

Regards from Perth

Derek



Robin Lee to Derek: Check (tools?) in the mail. Thanks.

It takes two seconds to reset a cutter in an Eclipse jig to hone at a higher angle. Loosen one screw, run cutter against guide board. Tighten screw. The MK whatever apparently throws the cutter out of skew when you flip the little doo-hickey according to other users' posts in this thread. I'll grant that, on paper, the Veritas jig is a quicker change for a microbevel (if you even need one but that's another matter).

As to the only requirement being able to repeat a bevel angle I think the OP would vehemently disagree with you. Or, have you lost your focus?

[bob blakeborough]

Personally...I like mine.Meeeee too!

[Derek Cohen]

Robin Lee to Derek: Check (tools?) in the mail. Thanks.

It takes two seconds to reset a cutter in an Eclipse jig to hone at a higher angle. Loosen one screw, run cutter against guide board. Tighten screw. The MK whatever apparently throws the cutter out of skew when you flip the little doo-hickey according to other users' posts in this thread. I'll grant that, on paper, the Veritas jig is a quicker change for a microbevel (if you even need one but that's another matter).

As to the only requirement being able to repeat a bevel angle I think the OP would vehemently disagree with you. Or, have you lost your focus?

Don't be insulting Charles ... or if you really want to, try at least to be clever about it.

Now pay attention. As you describe, the Eclipse requires the blade being removed and the entire setup redone. That is one of the weaknesses of the Eclipse. Want to try for another?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

It takes two seconds to reset a cutter in an Eclipse jig to hone at a higher angle. Loosen one screw, run cutter against guide board. Tighten screw.

If you use the eclipse jig for a while, you can use it without tightening the screw so much that the iron can't be moved in it with a bump. As in, make your stop reasonably strong and push the guide forward without loosening anything. I don't use mine for anything but a finish smoother once in a while, but it only needs to be on moderately tight if the user is putting pressure in the right place and not halfway between the edge of the iron and the top of the jig.

Lots of people love the LV jig, there must be something to it. I like it when everyone loves something I don't love so much, it eases the exit pain in $$ and time terms.

[Charlie Stanford]

If you use the eclipse jig for a while, you can use it without tightening the screw so much that the iron can't be moved in it with a bump. As in, make your stop reasonably strong and push the guide forward without loosening anything. I don't use mine for anything but a finish smoother once in a while, but it only needs to be on moderately tight if the user is putting pressure in the right place and not halfway between the edge of the iron and the top of the jig.

Lots of people love the LV jig, there must be something to it. I like it when everyone loves something I don't love so much, it eases the exit pain in $$ and time terms.

Agree. Thanks.

[Charlie Stanford]

It does not require that the blade be removed and you already know this. Or should, I should say, since you've offered to provide us with a tutorial in its use. May we assume that no such tutorial will be forthcoming? Sure hope so. Sounds like you don't know how to use one. Could be Lee Valley Fever scrambling your brain. Quick, get to a hospital before you're a goner.

Meanwhile the OP still has skewed cutters? Hopefully not. Even if he has to pop a sideways wheelie whilst simultaneously twirling the microbeveling knob (is this how it goes Derek?), I hope he gets this worked out.

[Gabe Shackle]

Yowza! Didn't expect so much action on this one. Anyways, I ended up taking about 2 steps back and one to the side. After some searching for the issue on the web I came across the Deneb Puchalski video on a few simple modifications you can do the Eclipse style guides to make them work better. I spent about 15 minutes filing off the humps in the middle and was able to get near-perfect results right off the bat. I think for now I'll stick with the Eclipse as I'm not sharpening anything skewed or extremely high-angle. It would be awesome if someone made a higher-quality version of the Eclipse that combined the angle setting jig of the MKII with the side grip style of holding the blades (paging Mr Lee!).

[David Weaver]

That'll pretty much take away the trick I mentioned. The guide doesn't need to hold an iron or chisel like a vise, it's only holding the angle for you and if you focus your pressure at the edge of the blade, you'll get the assistance you need from it and get a concept for feel/touch when sharpening. One first angle and a quick bump against something set for a microbevel and you can make it so that it barely takes more than total freehand sharpening in time.

I think in the long term, especially if you hollow grind, you'll learn to keep your skewed tools in good shape just by noticing which side of the edge needs just a fraction more work than the other to have the iron showing dead on when it's projecting.

You'll probably also find that using skewed tools only when you need them is good policy. What solves one problem can also create others.

[Charlie Stanford]

Yowza! Didn't expect so much action on this one. Anyways, I ended up taking about 2 steps back and one to the side. After some searching for the issue on the web I came across the Deneb Puchalski video on a few simple modifications you can do the Eclipse style guides to make them work better. I spent about 15 minutes filing off the humps in the middle and was able to get near-perfect results right off the bat. I think for now I'll stick with the Eclipse as I'm not sharpening anything skewed or extremely high-angle. It would be awesome if someone made a higher-quality version of the Eclipse that combined the angle setting jig of the MKII with the side grip style of holding the blades (paging Mr Lee!).

Gabe, glad to know you've worked it all out.

[Jason Coen]

Yowza! Didn't expect so much action on this one. Anyways, I ended up taking about 2 steps back and one to the side. After some searching for the issue on the web I came across the Deneb Puchalski video on a few simple modifications you can do the Eclipse style guides to make them work better. I spent about 15 minutes filing off the humps in the middle and was able to get near-perfect results right off the bat. I think for now I'll stick with the Eclipse as I'm not sharpening anything skewed or extremely high-angle. It would be awesome if someone made a higher-quality version of the Eclipse that combined the angle setting jig of the MKII with the side grip style of holding the blades (paging Mr Lee!).

I think Woodpeckers is or was working on an updated Eclipse-style guide.

[Jim Koepke]

I think Woodpeckers is or was working on an updated Eclipse-style guide.

There is the Pinnacle Guide on their site. That doesn't look as simple as an eclipse.

There was also a video of how to tune the eclipse found in the search. Looks similar to what Denab did in a LN video.

jtk

[Harold Burrell]

After some searching for the issue on the web I came across the Deneb Puchalski video...

OK...I can't find it...

Help a brother out here. :D

[Jim Koepke]

OK...I can't find it...

Help a brother out here. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojzzCXq5ook

jtk

[Gabe Shackle]

OK...I can't find it...

Help a brother out here. :D

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojzzCXq5ook

[Jason Coen]

There is the Pinnacle Guide on their site. That doesn't look as simple as an eclipse.

There was also a video of how to tune the eclipse found in the search. Looks similar to what Denab did in a LN video.

jtk

The one from WP's looked like an Eclipse with better materials and machining.

Here it is on the YewToobs: http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=e2Jvu7jIq38&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3De2Jvu7jIq38

[Harold Burrell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojzzCXq5ook

jtk


Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojzzCXq5ook

Thank you kindly. :)

[Derek Cohen]

If you use the eclipse jig for a while, you can use it without tightening the screw so much that the iron can't be moved in it with a bump. As in, make your stop reasonably strong and push the guide forward without loosening anything. I don't use mine for anything but a finish smoother once in a while, but it only needs to be on moderately tight if the user is putting pressure in the right place and not halfway between the edge of the iron and the top of the jig.

Lots of people love the LV jig, there must be something to it. I like it when everyone loves something I don't love so much, it eases the exit pain in $$ and time terms.

Hi David

There are positive features in the Eclipse, but resetting it for a secondary bevel is not one of them. Yes it can be done, but not with the ease of either the LV Mk I and Mk II.

Note that I am not knocking the Eclipse - I have two of them, and they get used for specific tasks. I am simply drawing attention to the strengths and weaknesses of each of these two honing guides.

I like the side clamping feature of the Eclipse as it is quick to lock up, and in fact I actually rarely use the secondary adjustment on the Mk II (since I only require one micro secondary bevel - this hones quickly on low micron media). However many do, and the Mk II guide caters for them, as well as offers other features that the Eclipse cannot approach (such as skew blades). The person who buys the Mk II is investing is a possible future broader honing system as well.

My use of honing guides is largely reserved for the high angle blades of BU planes. Otherwise I prefer to freehand sharpen (chisels and BD plane blades). Setting this secondary bevel is more critical, as a result, and the final cutting angle can vary wildly if done on an Eclipse in a "casual" manner.

It is important to keep in mind that the OP owns the Mk II, and what he needs is to learn how to use it correctly (my earlier post). Charles just enjoys stirring and being oppositional. It can be fun for a while :) However the bantering does not help the OP deal with his query. Going out and purchasing another guide is avoiding the issues that were reported at the outset, that is, there is a skill set that needs to be developed, as well as confusing the issues and costing extra.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Charles just enjoys stirring and being oppositional.

Yeah, I will not ever carry water for charles. At the risk of sounding like warren, a user with a little bit of touch can easily refresh an edge and pop a microbevel on something without taking an iron out or even loosening the iron, as long as it's not too tight to start. I don't have stops like most people have stops. Maybe I'll take a picture of my stops quickly and post it here. be right back with it...

[Derek Cohen]

At the risk of sounding like warren ...

Warren probably has forgotten more than you and I together have learned. He is one to emulate. However - and I write this hoping that Warren will read this point - he does not describe techniques in a way that helps us follow in his footsteps. The chip breaker is a case in point. He expoused his Stanley #3 on interlocked grain for years, but it was not until you began writing about it that most of us realised what he had been referring to all those years! More effort on teaching, Warren! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

OK...here's what I do, I use these things only for smoother irons. It doesn't matter that they're dirty, the iron never touches them after the 1k stone.

I do what charlesworth prescribed with my smoothers, because if I can help it, I plane last, no scrape, no sand - I need to have precise control over my camber because I don't want to leave any marks and I also don't want to be planing a 1/2" wide strip, if you know what I mean. This method drives larry nuts, but it makes for a very strong edge that fails only by wear and only after a very long time.

Anyway, I start with a picture of the stops. I freehand the primary bevel if I am too lazy to step over to the grinder, and sometimes I grind it. If the iron is thin, I just freehand it around 25 degrees. The stop on the left is 32 degrees, the stop on the right is 35.

252087

So, I put my iron in and turn the screw finger tight and then just a tiny tick of additional tightness with the screwdriver. You can see the iron is tight against the stop.

252088

20 seconds on the shapton 1k, and I'll have a secondary bevel and worked camber precisely.

And I'll come back to these things and put the iron in the second stop. see the space, my thumb is underside just above the wheel at the back of the guide.
252089

A little bit of firm pressure and the guide slips right up the iron and I have this. Note the difference, no space under the stop.

252090

Another 20 seconds or so on a shapton 15k and I'm done. The guide isn't on so lose that it'll move easily or fall off, but it's also not on so tight that I need to use a screwdriver to loosen it, I can lever it off by hand or tap it on the bench twice and it'll loosen and come off.

I have to locate and use the screwdriver only one time, I like that better than picking things up and putting them down a lot.

I did have the MKII guide, I couldn't use it nearly as fast. I can go from a non-cutting plane iron to a finished plane iron off the shapton 15k in about 2 minutes.

[Jason Coen]

Hi David

There are positive features in the Eclipse, but resetting it for a secondary bevel is not one of them. Yes it can be done, but not with the ease of either the LV Mk I and Mk II.

How often does one actually change from sharpening the primary bevel to a secondary? Once the primary has been established, for me it doesn't get touched again until it needs to be chased back to speed honing the secondary. Thus, I usually hone the secondary maybe a half-dozen times before going back to the primary. So over the course of honing the secondary bevel six times or so, the Eclipse may add about ten more seconds to the total time spent honing. Hardly a difference worth considering in my regimen.

I think that extra ten seconds more than accounts for the times I spent chasing back a primary bevel only to realize the roller hd been adjusted to the secondary bevel position and I had been spending my time making my secondary bevel the primary. :(

[David Weaver]

At the risk of sounding like warren ...

Warren probably has forgotten more than you and I together have learned. He is one to emulate. However - and I write this hoping that Warren will read this point - he does not describe techniques in a way that helps us follow in his footsteps. The chip breaker is a case in point. He expoused his Stanley #3 on interlocked grain for years, but it was not until you began writing about it that most of us realised what he had been referring to all those years! More effort on teaching, Warren! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Yeah, I know. I'll never know as much as warren (I know that's not the way you meant it, but I'm reiterating it). I knew if I said "with a little bit of touch, you can....". That stuff always drives me nuts if I can't figure it out right way.

Thus the pictures. I can't remember what the discussion was that made me make these stops, but they are scrap poplar left from something, drawers, I can't remember...

I drew a line on them with a cheap angle gauge and just quickly cut them with a ryoba and glued them with thin CA. I figured if I liked the way they worked, the CA joint would split/fail shortly and I'd make decent ones. It's probably 3 years+ later now, and they still haven't let go.

They wouldn't work well with chisels, but I never put chisels in a guide.

If someone had to do chisels, they could make the guides more squat, like 1 1/2 inches of length on the diagonal. As these are, they work great for a smoother iron. My sharpening area is a complete slop...I love it, I never worry about what's below it, and it doesn't get on my good bench or anything else. Since I still have an inexpensive starter bench and have for years, I just put an extra 100 pounds in its base and butt it up against the machinist bench in this picture.

These eclipse guides go on sale locally here or online retailers from time to time for like 6 bucks. Every time they do, I buy one. If I meet someone who can't sharpen something, I just show them out to use them and give them mine. I still have 4 of them, I think.

[Jason Coen]

OK...here's what I do, I use these things only for smoother irons. It doesn't matter that they're dirty, the iron never touches them after the 1k stone.

I do what charlesworth prescribed with my smoothers, because if I can help it, I plane last, no scrape, no sand - I need to have precise control over my camber because I don't want to leave any marks and I also don't want to be planing a 1/2" wide strip, if you know what I mean. This method drives larry nuts, but it makes for a very strong edge that fails only by wear and only after a very long time.

Anyway, I start with a picture of the stops. I freehand the primary bevel if I am too lazy to step over to the grinder, and sometimes I grind it. If the iron is thin, I just freehand it around 25 degrees. The stop on the left is 32 degrees, the stop on the right is 35.

252087

So, I put my iron in and turn the screw finger tight and then just a tiny tick of additional tightness with the screwdriver. You can see the iron is tight against the stop.

252088

20 seconds on the shapton 1k, and I'll have a secondary bevel and worked camber precisely.

And I'll come back to these things and put the iron in the second stop. see the space, my thumb is underside just above the wheel at the back of the guide.
252089

A little bit of firm pressure and the guide slips right up the iron and I have this. Note the difference, no space under the stop.

252090

Another 20 seconds or so on a shapton 15k and I'm done. The guide isn't on so lose that it'll move easily or fall off, but it's also not on so tight that I need to use a screwdriver to loosen it, I can lever it off by hand or tap it on the bench twice and it'll loosen and come off.

I have to locate and use the screwdriver only one time, I like that better than picking things up and putting them down a lot.

I did have the MKII guide, I couldn't use it nearly as fast. I can go from a non-cutting plane iron to a finished plane iron off the shapton 15k in about 2 minutes.

Interesting stops and method. Pretty close to what I do, except I use a board similar to what Deneb shows in his video. I may add a 32° stop to extend the time between chasing the primary back down.

[David Weaver]

Now I can remember why I made these instead of the stops...the iron thickness doesn't matter, you get 35 degrees no matter what, and you don't have to measure anything.

In reality, it matters very little with different thicknesses of irons, but it bugged me at the time for some reason.

[Derek Cohen]

How often does one actually change from sharpening the primary bevel to a secondary? Once the primary has been established, for me it doesn't get touched again until it needs to be chased back to speed honing the secondary. Thus, I usually hone the secondary maybe a half-dozen times before going back to the primary. So over the course of honing the secondary bevel six times or so, the Eclipse may add about ten more seconds to the total time spent honing. Hardly a difference worth considering in my regimen.

I think that extra ten seconds more than accounts for the times I spent chasing back a primary bevel only to realize the roller hd been adjusted to the secondary bevel position and I had been spending my time making my secondary bevel the primary. :(

Hi Jason

Most honing guides are designed with secondary bevels in mind. The only exception that comes to mind is the Sharp Skate (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate.html ), which tries to replicate freehand sharpening, and is really designed with Japanese chisels in mind. The traditional way one hones a Japanese blade is to do the full face of the bevel.

Japanese laminated blades aside, honing the full face is unusual on a honing guide. It requires very careful positioning of the blade, otherwise each time you hone it is like starting afresh. Freehand honing the full bevel face of a laminated blade generally takes into account that the softer backing abrades easily. It is much harder work on a full face of hard tool steel.

So secondary bevels are intended to reduce the honing area, which speeds up sharpening.

Some, such as David Charlesworth, recommend using at least 2 secondary micro bevels. For example, on a 25 degree primary bevel one may use a 1000 stone at 27 degrees and a 8000 stone at 29 degrees. The LV Mk I and II dial these in with a turn of knob. The Eclipse is more complicated, but doable.

If you are honing full faces on a honing guide, I recommend that you try out the above alternative. If you mean that you do use the same secondary bevel angle for all grits, as long as it is small you are being efficient.

Regards from Perth (struggling with a cold - back to work in 2 days!)

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

Your stops remind me of the angle setter for the Mk I. I don't doubt it works well for you.

Is this your regime with all blades, planes and chisels alike (just different angles)?

Regards from Perth

Derek (heading off to the shop now ..)

[David Weaver]

Smoother planes only, and even at that, only when they are the smoother irons meant for a final cut. From time to time, I'll do a straight across jointer iron with it.

Everything else is freehand one way or another.

I had the MK 1 jig, too, but the stop on it would've been better if it was 4 times as tall. It was too short and fiddly. These bigger stops are physical and intuitive, you don't have to look at anything to check it - if you put it against the stop, it is exact.

[Jason Coen]

If you mean that you do use the same secondary bevel angle for all grits, as long as it is small you are being efficient.

Regards from Perth (struggling with a cold - back to work in 2 days!)

Derek

Oops, sorry for the confusion. :o For a "normal" touch-up honing, my finishing stone (Sig 13k or Cho 10k) is the only thing that touches the secondary bevel. If the edge has been nicked, I'll drop down to 1k to remove it and then proceed to honing. When the secondary grows large, I drop back to 1k to chase the secondary back to within .003 or so of the edge, and then go to back to the finish stone on the secondary bevel.

Get well and be glad you didn't get the flu that's running around. My son got it a couple of weeks ago and then had an allergic reaction to Augmentin (penicillin). Hoo boy, fun times.

[michael osadchuk]

I have both the LV mk. 1 and mk. 2 honing guides, like them for some features but sometimes my inability to lock down a hand plane blade perfectly/inability to apply the right finger pressure at the correct area of blade while honing causes the the blade to skew and when that happens, I don't keep banging my head against the wall and will revert to the elipse/vice grip honing guide for that session.

The strong point of the elipse - apart from cheap (in Canada at Busy Bee it's $7 til the end of March) - is that it securely keep the blade edge 90degrees to the honing media (with the proviso that the hand plane blade/chisel sides are parallel).
Among the the strong points of the LV mk. 2 is the "built in" angle setting guide and micro bevel adjustment but doesn't have same degree of "user proof" ability to attain and keep a 90degree setting to the honing media.

good luck

michael

[Jason Coen]

Now I can remember why I made these instead of the stops...the iron thickness doesn't matter, you get 35 degrees no matter what, and you don't have to measure anything.

In reality, it matters very little with different thicknesses of irons, but it bugged me at the time for some reason.

I was betting that was the reason, as I OCD'd over the same issue. The idea that consistency was more important than an exact degree coupled with my inherent laziness got me past the idea of doing anything more than using the stops.

[John Coloccia]

re: microbevel on eclipse jig
When I used a jig, I had a little shim....maybe 1/16" or 1/8"....that I put between the blade and the "stop" to get a micro bevel. I didn't see that anyone mentioned doing that yet, but it made doing a repeatable micro bevel trivial without having to make more stops.

[Paul McGaha]

re: microbevel on eclipse jig
When I used a jig, I had a little shim....maybe 1/16" or 1/8"....that I put between the blade and the "stop" to get a micro bevel. I didn't see that anyone mentioned doing that yet, but it made doing a repeatable micro bevel trivial without having to make more stops.

That's what I do John. I imagine that's what a lot of us do. It's per the Lie Nielsen's sharpening videos and too easy to do to get a secondary bevel. Lie Nielsen recommends an 1/8" shim.

PHM

[Charlie Stanford]

Hi David

There are positive features in the Eclipse, but resetting it for a secondary bevel is not one of them. Yes it can be done, but not with the ease of either the LV Mk I and Mk II.

Note that I am not knocking the Eclipse - I have two of them, and they get used for specific tasks. I am simply drawing attention to the strengths and weaknesses of each of these two honing guides.

I like the side clamping feature of the Eclipse as it is quick to lock up, and in fact I actually rarely use the secondary adjustment on the Mk II (since I only require one micro secondary bevel - this hones quickly on low micron media). However many do, and the Mk II guide caters for them, as well as offers other features that the Eclipse cannot approach (such as skew blades). The person who buys the Mk II is investing is a possible future broader honing system as well.

My use of honing guides is largely reserved for the high angle blades of BU planes. Otherwise I prefer to freehand sharpen (chisels and BD plane blades). Setting this secondary bevel is more critical, as a result, and the final cutting angle can vary wildly if done on an Eclipse in a "casual" manner.

It is important to keep in mind that the OP owns the Mk II, and what he needs is to learn how to use it correctly (my earlier post). Charles just enjoys stirring and being oppositional. It can be fun for a while :) However the bantering does not help the OP deal with his query. Going out and purchasing another guide is avoiding the issues that were reported at the outset, that is, there is a skill set that needs to be developed, as well as confusing the issues and costing extra.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It did help the OP, he started using an Eclipse and got 'near perfect results.'

I'm understanding that you have two Eclipse jigs and a MK II. Any others like Richard Kell, shop-made, etc.? Why all of these guides?

You state that "going out and purchasing another guide is avoiding the issues." Well, this is really rich since it seems ok when you own multiples but somehow it is not alright for somebody else to do so. You acquired all of these because you needed them? You were solving some sort of workshop problem? But the OP in doing the same is just "avoiding issues?"

I guess if we were all as enlightened, equipped, and discriminating as you we'd need, and apparently continue to use, three honing guides too.

[Derek Cohen]

Sorry Charles - can't play now. I'm off to bed with a streaming cold. Feel like Hell. I'll come back and tease you again later. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Belair]

I had the MK 1 jig, too, but the stop on it would've been better if it was 4 times as tall. It was too short and fiddly. These bigger stops are physical and intuitive, you don't have to look at anything to check it - if you put it against the stop, it is exact.

+1

I never use the stop jig from my Mk 1 but will make a set like yours. Thanks for the idea.

Jim B

[Charlie Stanford]

Sorry Charles - can't play now. I'm off to bed with a streaming cold. Feel like Hell. I'll come back and tease you again later. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Whatever, dude.

[John Coloccia]

Charlie et al.

Can you guys take the personal stuff offline? Thread after thread seems to get derailed with this nonsense lately.

[Jim Koepke]

Charlie et al.

Can you guys take the personal stuff offline? Thread after thread seems to get derailed with this nonsense lately.

+1 on that.

Just because there are multiple items of the same purpose in my shop doesn't mean my advise to others is to do the same.

Do we really need or want the proverbial brown object floating in our punchbowl?

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

The one from WP's looked like an Eclipse with better materials and machining.

Here it is on the YewToobs: http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=e2Jvu...%3De2Jvu7jIq38

For some reason that didn't work for me. Found this by searching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Jvu7jIq38

Looks like an improvement, but didn't see anything that looked like it would adjust for secondary bevels.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Someone will write the Boss Crunk chronicles one day, and we'll all be in it. It won't be interesting, anyway.

Until then, as they said on star trek, live long and sharpen (and use the ignore function if you'd like).

[John Coloccia]

For some reason that didn't work for me. Found this by searching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Jvu7jIq38

Looks like an improvement, but didn't see anything that looked like it would adjust for secondary bevels.

jtk

I think one of the advantages to the Eclipse jig is that you're teetering on a small wheel. If you're a bit out of square, it doesn't really matter that much because it's mostly determined by the pressure on the blade, not the jig itself. The other one may be machined a bit better, but I'm not sure the Eclipse would really benefit from better machining because it's really not all that critical that you're square.

[Christian Thompson]

I think one of the advantages to the Eclipse jig is that you're teetering on a small wheel. If you're a bit out of square, it doesn't really matter that much because it's mostly determined by the pressure on the blade, not the jig itself. The other one may be machined a bit better, but I'm not sure the Eclipse would really benefit from better machining because it's really not all that critical that you're square.

I have the Veritas jig and bought the "camber roller" attachment to do cambered blades. I ended up using it for everything for the same reason - it's easier to adjust for slightly out of square by using pressure on the blade.

[Harold Burrell]

I had the MK 1 jig, too, but the stop on it would've been better if it was 4 times as tall. It was too short and fiddly.

Agreed....

[Jim Koepke]

I think one of the advantages to the Eclipse jig is that you're teetering on a small wheel.

With this and the low cost of an Eclipse guide in mind, couldn't one make the roller on an Eclipse a bit rounded with a file and then use it to camber blades?

Just a thought...

jtk

[David Weaver]

It's narrow enough to camber blades as it is without having a feeling that it's fighting you....

...or are you thinking of rounding the rolloer on the LV gauge?

[Jason Coen]

Looks like an improvement, but didn't see anything that looked like it would adjust for secondary bevels.

jtk

Good. I don't want anything extra.

[Jason Coen]

I think one of the advantages to the Eclipse jig is that you're teetering on a small wheel. If you're a bit out of square, it doesn't really matter that much because it's mostly determined by the pressure on the blade, not the jig itself. The other one may be machined a bit better, but I'm not sure the Eclipse would really benefit from better machining because it's really not all that critical that you're square.

Agreed.

I like the idea of one that's nicely machined, but really I'm not sure what value that would actually add. It would be nice to make it completely tool less so you could tighten the guide without needing a screwdriver for that last little tiny bit.

[Bruce Haugen]

Agreed.

I like the idea of one that's nicely machined, but really I'm not sure what value that would actually add. It would be nice to make it completely tool less so you could tighten the guide without needing a screwdriver for that last little tiny bit.

I always tightened it with the edge of a cap iron. Since I don't use a jig for sharpening chisels, there's always a cap iron handy.

[John Coloccia]

It's narrow enough to camber blades as it is without having a feeling that it's fighting you....

...or are you thinking of rounding the rolloer on the LV gauge?


With this and the low cost of an Eclipse guide in mind, couldn't one make the roller on an Eclipse a bit rounded with a file and then use it to camber blades?

Just a thought...

jtk

Ja ja, no problem at all cambering blades. That's one of the advantages. In practice, you can actually camber a blade a LITTLE bit on the LV without the curved roller. Just enough for something like a smoother where you just want to knock off the edges. Ultimately, everything flexes a little bit if you push hard enough....that's an advantage or a disadvantage depending how you look at things :)

[Derek Cohen]

This discussion has turned more to honing guides than the OP honing with the Mk II. Some observations ...

I have several different types of honing guides (Veritas Mk I and Mk II, Eclipse, Kell #1, and Sharp Skate) and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. There is no perfect honing guide. There are features that will maximise specific aspects of clamping or honing, but in every case there are swings and roundabouts (for my US friends (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/it's+swings+and+roundabouts)). I do not plan to go into a comparison at this stage since the issue is what one might learn from this.

Why so many honing guides when I mainly freehand sharpen? Partly curiosity and partly they get used in the sharpening workshops I run at times.

The fact that I mainly freehand is relevant when using honing guides. What one does is learn to manipulate the blade on the sharpening medium. Honing is not a passive activity. It is active and interactive, a relationship between the blade and the medium. If one views the honing guide as an automaton, then you place all responsibility on the guide, and none on yourself. For example, using the flat roller on the Veritas it is possible to create a camber if the downforce is not centralised. My earlier message to the OP was that his finger pressure needed to be looked at.

My intent here is not to discuss the Veritas or Eclipse, but to hopefully introduce a little objectivity into this topic.

There is another side to sharpening. It is about getting a edge that gets you working wood. It is not about getting the most perfect looking edge. It is just about the edge.

I think that there is a danger when using honing guides that one begins to examine the result as though it should be machine-perfect. Hey, it would be great if the result was so, but there are too many reasons why guides will fail. If you take the automaton approach and the microbevel is slightly out-of-align, tell yourself it does not matter, and get on with it. Alternately, use the guide as an extension of your hand and adjust the abrasion pattern accordingly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

This discussion has turned more to honing guides than the OP honing with the Mk II. Some observations ...

I have several different types of honing guides (Veritas Mk I and Mk II, Eclipse, Kell #1, and Sharp Skate) and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. There is no perfect honing guide. There are features that will maximise specific aspects of clamping or honing, but in every case there are swings and roundabouts (for my US friends (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/it's+swings+and+roundabouts)). I do not plan to go into a comparison at this stage since the issue is what one might learn from this.

Why so many honing guides when I mainly freehand sharpen? Partly curiosity and partly they get used in the sharpening workshops I run at times.

The fact that I mainly freehand is relevant when using honing guides. What one does is learn to manipulate the blade on the sharpening medium. Honing is not a passive activity. It is active and interactive, a relationship between the blade and the medium. If one views the honing guide as an automaton, then you place all responsibility on the guide, and none on yourself. For example, using the flat roller on the Veritas it is possible to create a camber if the downforce is not centralised. My earlier message to the OP was that his finger pressure needed to be looked at.

My intent here is not to discuss the Veritas or Eclipse, but to hopefully introduce a little objectivity into this topic.

There is another side to sharpening. It is about getting a edge that gets you working wood. It is not about getting the most perfect looking edge. It is just about the edge.

I think that there is a danger when using honing guides that one begins to examine the result as though it should be machine-perfect. Hey, it would be great if the result was so, but there are too many reasons why guides will fail. If you take the automaton approach and the microbevel is slightly out-of-align, tell yourself it does not matter, and get on with it. Alternately, use the guide as an extension of your hand and adjust the abrasion pattern accordingly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Oh yes I had almost forgotten the side-sharpening thingy. I do remember when it was all the rage for a couple of weeks.

[John Coloccia]

I don't understand why he uses inline wheels instead of bearings. Then you could sharpen any which way you pleased and he would sell an awful lot more of those jigs.

[Charlie Stanford]

I don't understand why he uses inline wheels instead of bearings. Then you could sharpen any which way you pleased and he would sell an awful lot more of those jigs.

Good point. I do know that the old Record ball bearing jig was prone to seizing up with gunk if maintenance was deferred. And it only had the one bearing. Problem might be multiplied with several, small bearings.