Trying to figure out what I need

[Matt Mackinnon]

With some serious money invested in a OneWay 2436, and a desire to get into bowl turning, I guess it's time to start looking at getting some proper gouges. I don't want to start throwing money at a wall and hope it sticks, but I am not one to just blindly hope for the best.

Here is the rub. I gather that all gouges are not the same, and as such there is a whole load of options out there to choose from, each with a different feel when used. How can you tell what is best suited for you without buying them all and seeing what you like?

I'm a pretty big guy (6'2") and left handed if that makes any difference. I have turned pens with carbide, but it just doesn't seem to translate well to turning a bowl for me. I can easily get the P&N gouges from LeeValley and have been told that they are pretty good. But also hear good things about Thompson and the Ellsworth "Signature" by Crown. I don't have the first idea as to what is going to work best for me. I just know I need to buy something to start turning, as looking at wood and dreaming is not getting me any closer to turning an actual bowl.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Matt.

[Thom Sturgill]

Best advice - go to the AAW site and locate the nearest club and join it. Turners will generally be glad to help show you the ropes and let you 'try out' different tools (generally at THEIR shop, but not always)

[David Walser]

Matt,

There are lots of quality bowl gouges available. It's impossible for any of us to tell you which of these gouges is the ideal one for you. The selection is just to personal. Sort of like asking us to tell you which running shoe to buy. What works well for runner with flat feet might not work so well for a runner high arches. The preferences of a runner that stays on the road might not be all that relevant to a runner that prefers trails. Etc.

I suggest that you take a class, like the week long classes offered by Craft Supplies USA. (This one, with Richard Raffan, looks like it would be a blast. http://tinyurl.com/beedhvf) During the class, you'll have the opportunity to use several of the different types and grinds of bowl gouges that are available. Often, your fellow students will have brought their favorite tools to the class and will allow other students to try them out. If you cannot take a class, try asking some of the members of your local club if you can spend a day with them turning in their shop. Again, the idea is have a chance to try several bowl gouges over an extended period of time.

Good luck!

[Roger Chandler]

While some of the above is sound advice.......especially the part about getting with a club and trying a few different gouges....if I were in your shoes, I would get a gouge.......perhaps a Thompson or even a good one from Woodcraft.......my first two bowl gouges were from WC.......a 3/8" sorby [they measure by the flute, not the diameter, which is really a 1/2"] and a 5/8" pinnacle cryongenic........I still use both and have had good success with both........I have gotten some Thompsons now and even a Serious Toolworks ultimate gouge.....

My point is that you have to start somewhere........since you have gone "premium" with a Oneway 2436....getting a gouge and getting started is a very minor thing in perspective.......a 1/2" gouge is a good all around tool for bowls, and make sure you have a good sharpening setup.......the best gouge on planet earth will be of little value to you if you cannot refresh the edge when it is dull........which will be often, as wood is very abrasive.

If you are comfortable turning your own handle, you cannot go wrong with a Thompson!

[Fred Perreault]

...what Roger said

Joining a club and taking lessons are certainly a great idea. But if you want to get started I think that using the tool suggestions and recommendations frequently available on the Creek, as well as researching and understanding the variety of metal alloys available at different price points would probably get you into the quality of tools that you prefer. I have tools that vary from PSI Benjamin's Best, to Doug Thompson and other high quality tools. I even have some old Craftsman tools that I have re-ground for certain purposes. Some of the tools, even one of my Doug Thompson's, just didn't feel right for some time... tools are very personal. After some time, it has been one of my most frequently "go-to" tools. One of my least expensive bowl gouges for some reason takes an outrageously sharp edge, but it dulls quickly. I use that for a short clean cut when needed. Matt, you have selected a top quality lathe, so go get some tools and figure out where they fit in your arsenal as you gain experience. The next tool you buy will not be your last, and if you get one that you just don't like..... well, I'll give you my address and you could ship it to me..... :) :)

[Michelle Rich]

there are few bad tools out there, unless they are totally the bottom of the barrel. You can't go wrong with English, and heck even the cheaper ones from Veritas, or highland hardware work very very well. keep 'em sharp and you can do anything. the rub will be since this is new to you and you have no clue as to what you need, maybe you know nothing of sharpening your gouges..if so, less expensive ones might do, as you will grind them down, trying to learn to sharpen.

[Matt Mackinnon]

I am a member of a local turning guild, and they are running some tool training sessions, but sadly i am pretty far down on the list to start. (3-4 months from now). I had priced out taking a course from some of the schools, but not of the collages offer anything, and it's close to $1000 for a weekend with the smaller independent schools. For that sort of cash I can buy quite a few tools and just "fake-it it I make-it" trial and error.

I have spoken with several of the members in the guild, and they have offered for me to come over and give me some pointers, and I will take them up on that and give it a try. The worst part of trying something new is not knowing what you don't know. If buying something, even wrong is better than not buying anything, then that's the side I will have to take. As Michelle has said there are few bad tools out there, then it doesn't hurt just to get something then I can atleast have a starting point to say what it is that I don't like or could be better.

Thanks for the help.

Matt.

[Fred Perreault]

Matt..... a journey of 1000 miles begins with the first step

...... and a good convenient sharpening system is paramount.

the lathe might be the least expensive part of your "hobby" :) :)

[Brian Kent]

Matt, I think meeting with a turner or two is a great idea. Just a couple of hours of training helped me a lot and gave me a few pointers on how to not hurt myself. I have a nice little Delta 46-460 and know I have to be careful - catches, exploding bowls and such. Starting on an ultimate machine like yours feels to me like learning to ride a bike on a Harley Davidson. Lots of power to overpower knowledge :eek:.

Having said that, Doug Thompson over at Thompson Lathe Tools is really nice and will talk to you by phone or e-mail. He recommended two tools for me to start with and advised me on the tools that his specialized metals were not needed. I bough a 3/8" spindle gouge and a 1/2" V Bowl gouge and made my handles, but he can advise for your big set-up.

This is just my novice's 2 cents. In case of a tie, follow everybody else's advise.

[Reed Gray]

There are a number of design options. Mostly in flute design. Some are more open, as in C shaped, and some are more closed as in V shaped. Of course, there are a host of them in between. For brands, I prefer Thompson or D Way. You are buying from the guy who makes them, not after a couple of middle men have gotten their cut. They have the highest quality steel, and though different, I don't see any 'cutting' advantages from either. The Thompson V is a more shallow type V rather than a really pointy type, which I feel are almost unusable. It is probably my most used gouge. There are 'parabolic' curves, which are not cut on an arc of a circle, and tend to be kind of open. You will need 2 at least. One a fingernail grind or swept back design with about a 40 to 45 degree bevel, and the other one of the 'bottom feeder' types. Just about any gouge can do nice clean finish cuts on the outside of a bowl. For the inside, you need a specialized one to get through the transition and across the bottom of the bowl. Having a couple of good solid scrapers is necessary, at least to me.

Do find a local club. Mentors are priceless.

I do have a couple of bowl turning clips up on You Tube if you type in robo hippy.

Did you see the 'Bowl gouge size' thread down below?

robo hippy

[Mike Cruz]

Matt, not sure where you are, but finding someone local to you from here, the Creek, to help you out (personally), will be invaluable...if you can get that lucky. I was, and am forever greatful to my mentor. Yes, I also took a class (which I highly recommend doing...you'll likely be able to find a mentor easier if he knows he doesn't have to start from "this is a gouge"), but there is nothing like having someone there AFTER the class to help all that info sink in.

As for gouges, I have found that I love Doug's. I've heard nothing but great stuff from D-Way, too. So, like Reed, those would be my first two choices if I were you. Best of luck in your journey.

[Justin Stephen]

To get started fast, I would just recommend the following:

1. A 1/2" bowl gouge.
2. A bowl scraper
3. A small skew (or comparable)
4. A sharpening system

If you have a Woodcraft or Rockler nearby, stop by and pick up a quality 1/2" gouge. One solid choice is the Robert Sorby 3/8" fingernail grind bowl gouge. As explained above, the Sorby "3/8" is actually a 1/2". Sorby tools are 95% as good as anything on the market (at least) in terms of quality and the tool will serve you well. Later on, once you develop your own tastes and preferences, you can pick up more gouges from Thompson, D-Way, etc. You can do 98% of the work on making a bowl with this tool.

I own a couple of big, heavy bowl scrapers, but the one I use most often by a long shot is a lightweight Sorby 3/4" scraper (this one: http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2000408/2050/sorby-scraper-curved.aspx) that I bought a couple of years ago. It is too small to hog out wood on anything bigger than a small bowl or box, but I don't use it for that. I use it for refining interior curves (such as a transition from side to bottom) or fixing small imperfections. It also works for gently refining/shaping/rounding the lip of a bowl.

Lastly, I still use a small skew that was originally part of a super-cheap set of lathe tools I once picked up at Harbor Freight. I don't use it as a skew, but as a scraper, allowing me to shape my dovetail on a tenon or to make a sharp transition that is too tight for a gouge. You can also use the point of the skew for some embellishments as needed/desired. In many ways, a skew used as a scraper is more versatile than a square-sipped scraper or a bedan. Woodcraft sells inexpensive Wood River skews for $35 or so.

The sharpening system is critical if you don't already have it.

With these four things and a chuck, you can easily get started cranking out some bowls. You will probably buy many more tools as time goes on, but these will get you started.

[Erik Johanson]

I guess I am the outsider here, because I would suggest buying an inexpensive set first. Since most of your experiance has been with carbide you have not had to sharpen your tools and that can determine the quality of cut as much as the material the gouge is made from. If your not good at getting a repeatable sharpened edge you will struggle with your turning. Personally I know I would hate to to buy a really nice gouge only to muck it up trying to learn how to sharpen it. If you do get some quality tools to start with buy some el cheapo's too. They can serve as practice on the sharpener and also alow you to play with bevel angle till you find the one you like. Just my 2 cents.

[Jamie Donaldson]

Matt- you haven't posted info about your location, but you are a perfect example of the value to be had by attending a week long turning class at the Campbell Folk School in NC. It is a relaxed but total immersion in turning, and selecting the proper instructor will give you a short-cut to learn more in a week than most turners can learn in years on their own, and much safer as well! Your spouse might also find an interesting class and treat it as a vacation, just as my wife and I did for many years. Camp for adults, but with great food!

[Peter Lamb]

Matt
Find some one to give you some help. Go to you tube watch bobham5
For the new turners interested in bowls take a look at PennState Industries for Benjamin’s Best for an inexpensive beginner set.
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LCBT4.html (http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LCBT4.html)
Go to wood craft for an 8" slow speed grinder
Good luck

[Lee Koepke]

Maybe I pick things up quick? But I took a one day course at Highland Woodworking - "Basic Bowl Turning", and with a cheap starter set of Benjamin Best's and a Rikon Mini Lathe, I was turning bowls the next week.

After getting a feel for it, I opted for a Thompson Bowl Gouge and thats worked great for me. As I learn more, I will probably add to it. To pick up pointers along the way, I ran across a fellow creeker near me and he helped me with a large bowl and taught me some basics.

Hands on help is invaluable, and it doesnt take long at all to get basics.

[Wally Dickerman]

Matt, IMO the most important thing you can do to get started is to take a one day class. Check with your local woodworking store. Woodcraft stores hold one day classes on a regular basis. I taught at one for several years. A good instructor will suggest the right tools for you and will teach you how to sharpen them.

You've started out by buying a top of the line lathe so I suggest that you buy top quality tools also.

As has been suggested, find out from the Woodworking store if there is a local turning club and attend a meeting. You'll enjoy it and rubbing shoulders with other turners is part of the fun of woodturning.

[Darryl Hansen]

If you can't get to a club get the Ellsworth DVD. You can't go wrong with either the Ellsworth gouge or the Thompson's "V" gouges. You will only need one of that shape to do most all you want on a bowl. Ellsworth's book "Ellsworth Woodturning" is an excellent book and covers all you need to know in order to turn bowls the easy way. I like his stuff.

[Mike Cruz]

Matt, the advice you've been given over and over is to take a/some lessons, join/go to a woodturning club (or two), and get either Thompson or D-Way gouges (you can't go wrong with either). In a nutshell, this is the most sound advice you'll get that answers the specific question you asked.

A little more specifically, WHICH gouges within those brands should you get. This is where a mentor or teacher can help you. Honestly, a 5/8" V gouge from Thompson is a great start. You'll be able to do a LOT with it. Could/will you use a 1/2" and a 3/8"? Sure. Do you need them right away? No. Given the size of your lathe, I doubt you're gonna be turning a lot of 6" bowls.

That answers your gouge question. Now, there are other "basic necessity" tools like scrapers and parting tools that you will pretty much need/find very handy. Do you need 5 gouges, 10 scrapers, and 4 parting tools? No. Will you eventually get them? :D What do YOU think?....;)

[Justin Stephen]

I guess I am the outsider here, because I would suggest buying an inexpensive set first.

I would agree except for the gouge. My experiences with two types of cheap gouges is that neither of them would hold a decent edge very well at all compared to their more expensive brethren. One of the cheap gouges I was very disappointed with was the oft-recommended "Benjamin's Best" from PSI. I just cannot recommend them. As I said above, I still use a couple of tools that I originally purchased as part of a super-cheap Harbor Freight lathe tool set so I have no problem with cheap tools. If they do the job, great. Heck, it has only been in the past 6 months that I stopped using a spindle gouge from that set and I still use the roughing gouge and one of the skews.

But the bowl gouge is what he is going to be using 95% of the time when turning bowls. I recommend splurging a little and getting something of high quality.

[Justin Stephen]

Also, Matt, if you happen to be anywhere near Baltimore, I can make a good local recommendation for a one-day bowl-turning class.

[Matt Mackinnon]

I managed to get out to a local members shop over the weekend and gave a bunch of gouges a try. I did like the Thompson V gouge and tried out some of the Oneway u gouges as well. The fellow wood turner took 2 hours out of his day to not only show me how to use my current spindle gouges, but also how to sharpen on my grinding wheel. And at the end, he sent me home with Marples gouge to practice both the turning and sharpening on. I can feel the difference now between how a sharp tool and one going dull is. And I have a better idea of what I am going to purchase in a few months, once the weather warms up.

Being that it's -25 outside, and I don't have very good heating in my shop yet, I figure I'll wait to make a big purchase until the spring as my tolerance for turning in well below freezing weather is not all that good. And I think at the same time, I'll look into getting heating for the shop as well so i am prepared for next winter.

[Reed Gray]

Matt,
That reminds me of a demonstrator some years back at our club. He was at a symposium, and a man stopped by and told him how much he appreciated how he took 2 hours of his time to talk to the wife about turning. His comment was, "Heck, he didn't know that I talk to every one for 2 hours about turning." Personally, I find the mentoring as much fun as the actual creation of turning things.

robo hippy

[George Guadiane]

Here is the rub. I gather that all gouges are not the same, and as such there is a whole load of options out there to choose from, each with a different feel when used. How can you tell what is best suited for you without buying them all and seeing what you like?

Matt.

Matt, lots of good advice, let me offer you an additional set of questions:
What gouges do you use?
HAVE you bought more from the same manufacturer?
Would you recommend them to others?
Why?
Are there any that you would just plain stay away from?
Why?

There are LOTS of good tools and the degrees of value (to me) are:
Ease of use
Price/cost to value
Customer service

I replaced a P&N roughing gouge that my friend Joel Nucefor lent me - I like his older one better, but this one gets a lot of use.
I have LOTS of Thompson gouges. They are well made, reasonably priced and the customer service has shown to be beyond reproach.
I have several Benjamin's Best bowl gouges that I sharpen all at once and use for roughing from time to time, I recommend those if price is an issue, they are certainly useable, but they are not my favorites.
The Sorby gouges I have are also good tools.

[Lloyd Butler]

Matt,

Give me a call and I'll drop down by for a few hour on a weekend or in the evening and couple of nights if you have heat in your shop. If not, you can come over and we can work on my Nova.

The tools are a start, but knowing when and how to sharpen them will make your second hour of turning so much better. I have a bunch of rough out we can play on, and I can likely dig up a blank or 2 to start from the beginning.

There is a wide variety of flute shapes and they will play a role on your tool selection. With 2 or three different style flutes, you will likely find yourself using one more often than the other as it just feels more comfortable to you as you start out. Then once you start to develop a better feel for the cutting edge and tool presentation, the others will find a place, they will not go bad in your tool rack.

Lloyd

[Matt Mackinnon]

I went out to the Hamilton Wood Show this past friday and stopped by the Lee Valley booth to get some toys. I ordered the P&N 1/2" & 5/8" bowl gouges as well as a Crown Pro 1/2 bowl gouge. From what I understand, the Crown 1/2" is the same as a NorthAmerican 5/8" gouge. I figured since I can't see them in person as they didn't have any turning tools at the show, I'd let them ship them to me and I'd take a look.

From a practical side, the Crown 1/2" bowl is about the same cost shipped to me as a Thompson 5/8". I can't say what the quality is like as I haven't used either, but I might as well start somewhere.

Lloyd.. thanks for the offer. My shop is still around the -10 totally frozen temperature, and I am coming down with some sort of head cold, so I will get back to you when I am feeling better. I am sure that you don't want a nasty cold as a gift for being kind and having me over to figure out gouges.

Matt.

[Thomas Canfield]

Matt,

You have a lot of lathe and that will take some larger tools to utilize the larger diameter capacity. I recently bouht a 3/4" U Thompson bowl gouge because the reach over my straight tool rests was too much for the 5/8" gouges. Another option (and about same or less money) would have been to buy a cuved tool rest to have more support inside large deeper bowls. Your initial turning on bowls should probably be in the 12 to 16"D on upper end, but you can really learn the basics and refine your control on bowls of 8"D or less and use the 3/8" and 1/2" bowl gouges. That will also give you time to practice your sharpening skills with cheaper gouges and not grind down a $100 gouge when you can do the pactice on a $40 or less gouge. You don't learn to drive a car practicing in a new Lexus, so why go to best to start here. Get good tools in the smaller size and work up, you will need the smaller tools in any case.

[Mike Cruz]

Thomas, with all due respect, while I COMPLETELY understand your analogy, Matt (to me) doesn't seemed as concerned with the money so much as the process. What I mean be that is that he doesn't seem (to me) to care about getting a $100 gouge that he grinds down in 6 months so much as he doesn't want to go through 4 gouges to find the right one. He can always order another of the same of what he likes. Just sayin'...

That said, I 100% agree with you about curved rests. At a demo at a turning club once, I asked the demonstrater why he used straight rests as opposed to curved ones. His reply was that a rest with a predetermined curve will likely make you keep making the same curve. While I understood where he was coming from, I know that, for me, that isn't neccessarily true. The curved rest merely allows me to minimize a lot of overhang...something I despise.

[Bob Hamilton]

The 5/8" P&N and the 1/2" Crown will likely be fairly close to the same size, if the Crown is sized using the British system. The 1/2" P&N is actually noticeably smaller than a North American 1/2" gouge, like a Thompson or Oneway. P&N uses metric sizes and what they call their 1/2" is more like 7/16". That is unless they have changed things since I bought mine. It is a useful size and might fall in with Thomas' suggestion of smaller sizes. Just a heads up in case you think they shipped you the wrong size. :)

BTW, nice kilt! :)

Bob

[Matt Mackinnon]

Thomas, with all due respect, while I COMPLETELY understand your analogy, Matt (to me) doesn't seemed as concerned with the money so much as the process. What I mean be that is that he doesn't seem (to me) to care about getting a $100 gouge that he grinds down in 6 months so much as he doesn't want to go through 4 gouges to find the right one. He can always order another of the same of what he likes. Just sayin'...

If I manage to grind down a $100 gouge in 6 months, then I'd expect that I have turned a few hundred bowls in the process, or I am doing something seriously wrong with sharpening. I know from past experience in metal working and sharpening carbide pieces for class in collage that it's a light touch with a grinder. let the wheel do it's work, not you forcing it to try and make it cut faster.

And I do have several curved tool rests that came with the lathe when i bought it. I have gathered that my spending on this hobby was not going to be limited to just buying the lathe. I know that having a hobby is not a cheep endeavour. But I look forward to making some of beautiful turnings like I see all the time posted here on the forum. Desired, perseverance and persistence will be my guide.

Matt