Don't Ever Do the Math!

[Mike Circo]

In the process of getting ready to buy a new car, I was watching fuel economy values for my old car and new options.
I did the math and went EEK!

In the past 9 years I've put 140000 miles on the minivan.
At my average MPG of 20.5, that amounts to.... 6730 gallons of fuel pumped into the van and burned! That's an entire tanker truck full of gas just for this one vehicle.

Worse still that is over $20,000 of gas burned.

No wonder the oil companies do so well.

[Ole Anderson]

Some things it is better to not know.

[David Weaver]

IF it isn't an incentive to get a vehicle with better mileage next time and rent size when you need it, then it's just needless worry.

We never got to that point, we went smaller last time we got a car. The car's cheaper, the gas is cheaper, the insurance is cheaper and I can drive down the hill to enterprise and rent a van or truck for really cheap any time I need to get one, which only ends up being about every two or three years, and it's always on the weekend if I need it where you get low rent price deals, like $100-120 for three days or something.

Consider yourself lucky, around here in combination driving, vehicles always get about their city rating unless you have a reason to get on the highway. No flat land, plenty of stoplights (which are always at the bottom of a hill, otherwise there would be blind turns at the top of a hill).

[Ben Hatcher]

Do the math for how long it would take to pay back the cost of a new vehicle with better fuel economy and you won't feel so bad.

[John Pratt]

Although those numbers are eye-opening, I think the math may have a few variables that affect the purchase of one of the new "High efficiency" or electric vehicles. What is the average life expectancy of most vehicles (nine years seems like longer than most keep their vehicles although my truck is now 13 years old)? What is the price increase for a hybrid/electric car over a standard gasoline vehicle? What is the life expectancy of batteries in electric cars and the cost to replace them? In the event that you need to rent a larger vehicle as stated above; how often and what are the total costs during the lifetime that you keep that smaller, more efficient vehicle. I'm not a hater of more efficient vehicles, but I think all the variables and costs need to be factored in before some decisions are made. I know that in the last 3.6 years (1330 days) I have spent $8,560 in total cost to fuel and maintain a truck (that includes new tires and repairs to a 9 through13 year old truck). 2898 gallons of gas was consumed at an average of 15.95 MPG. The milage isn't that great but it is awful hard to haul plywood, gravel, topsoil, and other things in a Chevy Volt which runs $23,000 more than I paid for the truck.

[glenn bradley]

If you really want to spoil the fun figure out how much gas you would have to buy to make the new more efficient vehicle pay for itself.

[Jerome Stanek]

when I was looking for a truck they where pushing the diesel over the gas but when I did the math I would have had to drive it 260000 miles to break even. Now it would be more.

[paul cottingham]

When I did the math on our latest car purchase, the fuel savings was so large that the payment wound up being essentially so low that I stopped worrying about it. Combine that with a full warranty, and it became a no brainer. If gas goes up by 1/3, the car is almost paying for itself.
Im sure my math is wrong somewhere, but I find comfort in the above thoughts.....:-/

[Kevin Bourque]

You could trade the car in for a bicycle and save tens of thousands of $$$ over your lifetime...of course it'll take you all day to pedal to the grocery store and back.

[Ed Aumiller]

You could trade the car in for a bicycle and save tens of thousands of $$$ over your lifetime...of course it'll take you all day to pedal to the grocery store and back.
But then you have to start calculating the great health benefits and reductions in medical bills ......

[Matt Day]

I'm a little deflated to hear all the negative comments about fuel efficient vehicles. There's no doubt that keeping an older car with poor gas mileage is cheaper than paying off a brand new car, and that you save a lot of money buying a used car since you don't have the drive-off-the-lot depreciation, but I hope no one is arguing that fuel efficient vehicles aren't a good thing for both your wallet and your planet (and not to mention world politics but I'm not going there!).

I think the best of both worlds is a crossover vehicle with 30+ mpg and a trailer for sheet goods and hauling. I think it's funny seeing so many people in giant pickups who never use them for utility purposes.

Ed - where in the Valley are you from? I lived in Charlottesville for about 12 years and spent lots of time in H'burg and around the Valley. The best biking (road/mountain/gravel) is out your backdoor!

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm a little deflated to hear all the negative comments about fuel efficient vehicles. ..., but I hope no one is arguing that fuel efficient vehicles aren't a good thing for both your wallet and your planet (and not to mention world politics but I'm not going there!).

!

Personally, I prefer not to drive the lightweight cars, and tend to go to the opposite end of things. Several times, people have chosen to impale themselves on my vehicles, and they felt it more than me. I'm a safe driver, stay in my lane, leave a large distance in front of me, and everything like that, but a lot of people don't. The last time was in my pickup truck. I'm driving on the highway, minding my own business, and traffic comes to a stop. The guy in the honda behind me was not quite so attentive and got a trailer hitch through the radiator as a little reminder not to chat on the cell phone. I had a 1990's Toyota Landcruiser that absorbed more cars than I care to think about. It had the weight of a Suburban in a smaller footprint. Built like a tank.

When it's me, or my family, I want the weight and safety more than the money spent for gas. So if the other people on the planet could get themselves together, and try to pay attention to driving while they are driving, I would be delighted to drive a microcar. Until then, give me plenty of iron.

[Matt Day]

I'm not talking about microcars like a Smartcar or Fiat - I mean Subaru or Honda CR-V, along those lines. These are cars that all get stellar safety ratings and are great family cars, and get 30+ mpg. I'm not an expert, but I think that they'll hold up to a wreck pretty close to an old Landcrusher (my buddy had one that we beat the bleep out of).

The cars I mentioned are more than capable of towing a trailer loaded down with sheetgoods, tools, firewood, etc.

[paul cottingham]

I happily replaced my Subaru with a Honda. Subarus are great cars, until you have to repair them. And my fuel economy was nowhere near 30 mpg and never was. And I am getting very close to EPA with my Honda.

[Steve Meliza]

My motorcycle gets about 40 MPG in mixed driving and is cheap to maintain and insure. My truck gets about 14 MPG in mixed driving and is expensive to maintain and insure.

If all we considered was the information above it would be an easy choice to hop on the motorcycle every day to save money and the planet. And that's exactly the choice I made for about 12 years until I got a job in the city, since then the motorcycle has been parked in the garage. I could sell the truck and downsize a bit and save a lot of money, but right now I'm one of the larger vehicles on the road so I can see around me and be seen and have over 4.5 tons of steel to protect me, that's 3 times what a CR-V weighs. My only concern is that such a weight imbalance might be dangerous to idiots, like that white Prius that came out of the fog on a frosty morning last week that didn't have his lights on. Had I not been alert that morning I might have pulled out in front of him and ruined his day.

I'm not saying that we should all run out and buy the biggest gas guzzlers we can find, what I am saying is my life is worth more than a few thousand dollars a year. By all means, don't do the math on something as unimportant as gas when it comes to something as dangerous as the daily commute and something as precious as your hide.

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm not talking about microcars like a Smartcar or Fiat - I mean Subaru or Honda CR-V, along those lines. These are cars that all get stellar safety ratings and are great family cars, and get 30+ mpg. I'm not an expert, but I think that they'll hold up to a wreck pretty close to an old Landcrusher (my buddy had one that we beat the bleep out of).

The cars I mentioned are more than capable of towing a trailer loaded down with sheetgoods, tools, firewood, etc.

I'm talking about this type of landcruiser, it's heavier than it looks. About 1500 lbs heavier than a crv? They had a full frame of THICK steel. Not comparable to a crv in any way, other than they both have wheels and doors.

Maybe it's just me, but I look at people driving along, blocking their view and head motion with the cell phone while listening to loud music, and I want some steel. Don't believe me, next time you see a car that's been in a fender bender, feel how flexible the metal is. You could total one of the newer cars just by karate chopping it. The metal is very thin to get the mpgs up. Plus, what they don't tell you about the crash ratings is that the ratings are compared to similar sized cars. They leave out of the rating the fact that the big car wins in a collision.

http://www.marlincrawler.com/sites/all/marlin/files/rockslider_001.jpg

[Brian Elfert]

I'm single with no kids and I still own a mini-van. During the warmer months I need the extra hauling/towing capacity at least once a week. Where I live renting a larger vehicle is neither convenient nor inexpensive. I used to borrow my parent's minivan from time to time, but it was a hassle and I didn't like to do it. The mini-van I bought gets pretty decent mileage in the warm months, but the mileage has dropped a lot in the winter months now.

For me personally, I prefer a modest sized vehicle with all the latest safety innovations. Some of the larger vehicles tend to transmit more of the impact to the passengers. I haven't had an issue with being hit by other cars.

[Keith Outten]

You can purchase a diesel Mercedes Sprinter Van for thousands of dollars less than a Ford or Chevy, mine was about 38K. My Sprinter gets 24 mpg whether it is empty or loaded. A little better on the highway but the milage doesn't vary as much as other vehicles. The Sprinter has more power than any vehicle I have ever owned, the torque is just unbelievable. The diesel is as quiet as a gas engine and there is zero odor.

Its BIG, I can stand straight up in the van and it will haul 12 foot long lumber in the center, eleven foot long stuff anywhere in the cargo area.

When driving you are way up in the air, you can look down into other people's cars and trucks and watch them texting on their cell phones. You would not believe the stories I could tell since I bought my Sprinter. I've seen grown women texting at 55 mph with a newborn baby in a car seat following them for over 15 miles. I've seen people of all ages reading newspapers, writing in the notebooks, putting on makeup and shaving while looking in the rear view mirror. Texting while driving is near epidemic proportions and it scares me to death.

Last week a woman in a Ford Explorer hit me in the rear while I was stopped at a red light. She misjudged the distance because she was reading a text message. Her steel bumper hit the hitch on the back of my van so there wasn't any damage just a really loud bang. Had I been driving my Solstice it probably would have been totaled.

I really like my Sprinter Van, all of our other vehicles are American made but I try to drive the Sprinter if I am expecting to be in rush hour traffic when the ratio of people who drive to the number of stupid people is at its worst :(

[Joe Angrisani]

I'm a little deflated to hear all the negative comments about fuel efficient vehicles. There's no doubt that keeping an older car with poor gas mileage is cheaper than paying off a brand new car, and that you save a lot of money buying a used car since you don't have the drive-off-the-lot depreciation, but I hope no one is arguing that fuel efficient vehicles aren't a good thing for both your wallet and your planet....

I'll argue that. I get a little deflated when people try to justify a new car by playing the "Green" card.

The true cost to "your planet" is not based solely on the fuel economy. You need to figure in all the cost of materials, all the transportation costs for materials and the finished car, as well as disposal costs and wasted materials from the old car.

I have a 1998 Jetta that's my everyday car. Runs clean as Day One out the tailpipe. Gets 28mpg overall. Care to do a true cost analysis on that car versus your "crossover vehicle with 30+ mpg"? No matter how you look at it, moving into your new CR-V puts a MUCH larger load on the planet than I'll ever do getting another 10-15 years out of the existing Jetta.

[Stephen Cherry]

I'll argue that. I get a little deflated when people try to justify a new car by playing the "Green" card.

The true cost to "your planet" is not based solely on the fuel economy. You need to figure in all the cost of materials, all the transportation costs for materials and the finished car, as well as disposal costs and wasted materials from the old car.

I have a 1998 Jetta that's my everyday car. Runs clean as Day One out the tailpipe. Gets 28mpg overall. Care to do a true cost analysis on that car versus your "crossover vehicle with 30+ mpg"? No matter how you look at it, moving into your new CR-V puts a MUCH larger load on the planet than I'll ever do getting another 10-15 years out of the existing Jetta.

I've never been able to understand buying a new car every few years; but if you can't fix things yourself, it may make great sense. Car repairs, even for simple things like a brake job, are super expensive. Plus, the assumption is that the car you trade in will go to a new owner for many happy miles to come and someones junker goes to scrap. The cash for clunkers program bypassed this because it required the trade-ins to be destroyed. I'm in the drive them til they drop crowd also, but I can fix most of the normal problems.

That said, I'm not sure what happens to the hybrids as the batteries finally give out. I think most of the new buyers of those cars definitely do trade them in befor they are old.

[Brian Elfert]

If nobody bought new cars there wouldn't be any used cars for others to buy. Most of the time when someone switches to another vehicle their former vehicle goes to another owner.

I know a number of people who got rid of a gas guzzler for a fuel sipper and save enough on gas to cover the cost of their replacement vehicle. Of course, you have to drive a lot of miles every month to make this work out.

[paul cottingham]

If nobody bought new cars there wouldn't be any used cars for others to buy. Most of the time when someone switches to another vehicle their former vehicle goes to another owner.

I know a number of people who got rid of a gas guzzler for a fuel sipper and save enough on gas to cover the cost of their replacement vehicle. Of course, you have to drive a lot of miles every month to make this work out.
And I'm one of them. Never would have believed it, until it happened to us. Mind you, we put "taxi cab mileage" on our car, as one mechanic put it.

[Darius Ferlas]

Personally, I prefer not to drive the lightweight cars, and tend to go to the opposite end of things. Several times, people have chosen to impale themselves on my vehicles, and they felt it more than me. I'm a safe driver, stay in my lane, leave a large distance in front of me, and everything like that, but a lot of people don't. The last time was in my pickup truck. I'm driving on the highway, minding my own business, and traffic comes to a stop. The guy in the honda behind me was not quite so attentive and got a trailer hitch through the radiator as a little reminder not to chat on the cell phone. I had a 1990's Toyota Landcruiser that absorbed more cars than I care to think about. It had the weight of a Suburban in a smaller footprint. Built like a tank.

When it's me, or my family, I want the weight and safety more than the money spent for gas. So if the other people on the planet could get themselves together, and try to pay attention to driving while they are driving, I would be delighted to drive a microcar. Until then, give me plenty of iron.

I'm with you on the family safety, but my completely non scientific observations over a period of 8 years on the very same around 25 mile long road, show that bigger doesn't necessarily mean safer. I have not seen even on single medium to small car accident, or one in the ditch. Most were pickup trucks, and SUVs of various sizes. There was tractor trailer too. Perhaps this has to do with a degree of false sense of security by the large vehicle drivers who tend to forget that injury in an accident doesn't always happen as a result of collision with another vehicle.

As I sad, these are just my amateurish observations so I looked for some hard stats, and here they are:



Driver deaths per million registered passenger vehicles 1-3 years old, 2007. Source: IIHS



Vehicle Size


Rate




Car — Small


96




Car — Midsize


62




Car — Large


64




Car — Very Large


35




Pickup — Small


104




Pickup — Large


90




Pickup — Very Large


86




SUV — Small


48




SUV — Midsize


41




SUV — Large


43




SUV — Very Large


47



Looks like pickup trucks don't fare much better than small cars, and they are not as safe as midsize cars, but you still pay extra for the gas.

source (http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/are-smaller-cars-as-safe-as-large-cars.html)

I commute to work in a 1.8 liter Vibe. My gasoline usage went down from a weekly $50 a fill-up (for a V6 Sebring) to $32, and I am not even factoring the gas prices increase since the time I bought the Vibe.

Also, when you compare the US car accident stats to those of Germany, France, Scandinavian countries, UK etc, it turn out that the American safety record is a bit behind, even though EU drivers by almost exclusively small and very small cars.

[Mike Cruz]

Mike, if it makes you feel any better, going out and getting a vehicle that gets 30 mpg will save you less than $7K over that span. Could I use $7K? SURE! But I don't need to go out and spend $20K to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes: Sounds more like a $14K loss to me. Never ceased to amaze me when I hear someone say that they bought a vehicle because it got better gas milage than what they were driving currently, or that they bought a second car with spectacular milage to save money. DO THE MATH, people... If you drive 20,000 miles a year and get 20 mpg, that is 1000 gallons of gas. At $4 per gallon, you spend $4000 per year on gas. Same 20,000 miles a year with 30 mpg is 667 gallons of gas. At $4 per gallon, you spend $2,666. Same 20,000 miles per year, 40 mpg is 500 gallons at $4 per gallon is $2000 a year on gas. So, even going up to 40 mpg, you are saving $2000 a year. How much are you paying for insurance for that extra car? What are your payments? I'm SURE you are paying more than $2000 a year...no savings there.

Now, if you want to do it for the environment, or because you need a new car anyway, more power to you. But again, the difference between 20 mpg and 30 mpg is $1333 a year. If you take out a 5 year loan, that is just under a $7 difference. No sense (unless as stated earlier) to spend more than $7K just to get a vehicle with better gas milage...if your intention is to save money on gas... Not to mention, since, on a loan, you will pay interest off before principal, that will likely be more like $8K that you would spend for that car with better milage...

Anyway, my point is...sometimes doing the math will save you. Though I've had my diesel Chevy truck for 9 years now and have gone 160,000 miles in it at 20 mpg. I've used my tanker full of fuel...:o

[Charlie Velasquez]

. . . Perhaps this has to do with a degree of false sense of security by the large vehicle drivers who tend to forget that injury in an accident doesn't always happen as a result of collision with another vehicle.. . . .

Looks like pickup trucks don't fare much better than small cars, and they are not as safe as midsize cars, but you still pay extra for the gas.

Not necessarily. Correlation is not necessarily causation.

As you pointed out yourself, the type of vehicle chosen by the buyer may be indicative of certain traits that influence the number and/or the type of accidents. Truck owners are more likely to be towing something, maybe more likely to be travelling with a payload in the bed, maybe more likely to be driving on gravel roads. Truck owners may be more likely to be involved in work that requires a truck, with loading and unloading activities and more physically exhausted when coming home from work??. Truck owners may do more off-roading, have more adventurous personalities and be willing to take greater risks.

On the other hand, if I had a wife and a couple of pre-schoolers, I would be more inclined to buy a mid-sized to large car, or maybe a SUV. I would also be less likely to be speeding or texting while driving. ...
On the other hand, driving with a couple of kids in the back fighting over who's looking at who the wrong way could be pretty distracting.

Just saying...

[Mike Cruz]

So, Darius, when the car (pick one) comes blazing by me in the right lane, cuts me off, then slams on his brakes (because of the car that WAS in front of me, but is now in front of him) making me swerve off the road to avoid a collision... (in my pick up) leaving me in a ditch dead, I suppose that puts me on the stats chart as "my truck is not as safe as a car". Um, no. Stats are just that. stats. They don't take into consideration the circumstances. In any accident, WHAT you were driving may or may not have made a difference as to whether or not you survived. Heck, in many of these stat cases above, IF someone had been driving a vehicle other than the one in the catagory they were driving, they may have survived. Though, there are many people that were in accidents at the time these stats were pulled that didn't die, yet had they been driving something in a different catagory, they may have. And by that I mean someone that got in an accident that was in a pick up that got T-boned survived, but had he been in a large car, would have been lower to the ground and wouldn't have made it. It also doesn't take into consideration what the other people in the accident were driving, if there were other vehicles involved. Or if it was an accident caused by that driver or another driver. Heck, I'll take my chances with hitting a deer at 50 mph with my pick up (large) ANY day over beinng in a passenger vehicle. Hit a deer square on in a passenger vehicle and guess where it can VERY likely end up...in your lap. In my truck, being much higher up, that is less likely. And around here (just an hour outside of DC beltway), I'm actually often more concerned about hitting deer at night than worried about other drivers...at least other drivers are "supposed" to know the rules of the road. Deer don't... Do the stats take into consideration whether or not seat belts were worn? Alcohol use? Work or not work related? The driver's driving record? I simply can't hold the payload or haul a horse trailer that I do with my truck in a car.


I'm not saying trucks are the be all and end all. I'm not saying they are any more or less safe. Bottom line, is that people are people, and if ONE person were driving all these vehicles in all these instances, THEN I think you can make a correlation between the vehicles. The human factor screws it all up.

Sorry, Darius, this wasn't an attack on you. Rather me just ranting. I know your tone wasn't necessarily an anti truck one...

[David Weaver]

I'll argue that. I get a little deflated when people try to justify a new car by playing the "Green" card.

The true cost to "your planet" is not based solely on the fuel economy. You need to figure in all the cost of materials, all the transportation costs for materials and the finished car, as well as disposal costs and wasted materials from the old car.

I have a 1998 Jetta that's my everyday car. Runs clean as Day One out the tailpipe. Gets 28mpg overall. Care to do a true cost analysis on that car versus your "crossover vehicle with 30+ mpg"? No matter how you look at it, moving into your new CR-V puts a MUCH larger load on the planet than I'll ever do getting another 10-15 years out of the existing Jetta.

I choose this, also. Wish the target car would've been a toyota instead of a volkswagen, though! Joe, the mechanics I know from home have chosen your route, also. If I could fix everything easily on a car, I would, too.

[Darius Ferlas]

Wow! I sure got a mouthful, didn't I :D

I agree with all the remarks about the associated conditions that might decide as to why passengers of particular vehicle types are more or less likely to get in serious trouble, but the final statistical results are not without merit either, are they? The underlying message is very simple - driving a larger vehicle doesn't ensure safety. This is only the inconclusive bottom line and a good starting point to beginning splitting hairs.

Btw. I will be replacing my little Vibe with some kind of an SUV this year.

[Steve Meliza]

when the car (pick one) comes blazing by me in the right lane, cuts me off, then slams on his brakes (because of the car that WAS in front of me, but is now in front of him) making me swerve off the road to avoid a collision... (in my pick up) leaving me in a ditch dead, I suppose that puts me on the stats chart as "my truck is not as safe as a car".

In my experience the car pulling in front of me like that has just passed up a 20+ car-length gap behind me, probably because they assume a truck is slow. It plays out the same time and time again, I slam on my brakes, wasting fuel, and when the traffic opens up so that I can return to my normal traveling speed I have to pass them. When I drove my Mustang or motorcycle I never had these problems and people would always fall in behind me.

If you want to save the planet without spending a penny then don't cut off or pull out in front of a large truck or other low MPG vehicle. I once followed a guy in a hybrid to work that broke several traffic laws along the way and the only reason I could see why is that he never had to stop which probably raised his MPG enough to print a smiley face on his dashboard. Meanwhile those around him wasted more gas as a result of his actions than he saved by driving like that.

I do believe that a large car is safer than a truck or SUV due to the lower center of gravity and no compromises made to haul cargo and fewer compromises to safety made to maximize fuel efficiency. Some people around here value their life so low as to drive a "smart for two" vehicle that looks like a golf cart wrapped in a beer can. I bet you could hide 4 of them in the blind spots of your average sedan.

[Mike Cruz]

Hehe, Steve, my truck (and my wife's as well...we have two the same) which you've seen (a Chevy Crew Cab...full four doors...and eight foot bed with diesel engine) weighs 7,500 with the tank full and me in it. I average about 19 mpg per tank. I can get 24+ on a long trip just highway. I've had 3700+ lbs in the bed alone (full of mulch). I pull a 3 horse gooseneck trailer that, with horses, weighs 10,000 lbs.

I can't do any of that with a CRV.

My truck has 160,000 miles and is 9 years old. My wife's has 150,000 miles and is 10 years old. Yeah, at 20 mpg, we aren't the top gas milage vehicles on the road. But we also aren't buying and disposing of vehicles every 2-5 years like some/most. So, what we consume more in (fuel), we conserve more in (resources that cars are MADE of).

Steve, I know you, too, value the longevity of a good vehicle. What year is that Ferrari you drive? :D

[Jerry Thompson]

My adult children want me to unload our 1986 BMW 535i because it has 410,000 miles on it. The paint is shot and the interior looks seedy.
Most of the repair I can do and I do all of the maintainence. I bought it used 11 years ago for $2,700. Yes I have put a lot of money in it but nothing like car payments. It gets 21 mpg @ 75 mph on the highway.
My wife and I have not had a car payment since 1976 and I don't think I could deal with one now without having a heart attack.
I am not pushing BMW. I have had two I could not get rid of fast enough

[Brian Elfert]

My truck has 160,000 miles and is 9 years old. My wife's has 150,000 miles and is 10 years old. Yeah, at 20 mpg, we aren't the top gas milage vehicles on the road. But we also aren't buying and disposing of vehicles every 2-5 years like some/most. So, what we consume more in (fuel), we conserve more in (resources that cars are MADE of).


If someone buys a car and only keeps it 2 to 5 years it isn't like that car gets scrapped when sold. Someone else buys that car and eventually it gets totalled or scrapped out when it can no longer be economically repaired. Environmentally, it isn't any worse than someone who keeps a car for 10 to 15 years. A car is going to have the same general lifespan no matter if it has multiple owners or one owner during its life.

Economically it doesn't make sense to buy a car every few years unless you're putting on 50,000 miles a year or something. (I recently saw a two year old mini-van for sale with over 100,000 miles on it already.)

[Mike Cruz]

Brian, if I bought a new truck every 3 years, that would mean I would have put 3 vehicles on the road ("out there") in the last nine years. Since I've held onto only one, that is two less vehicles "in the market". It isn't like there aren't enough used vehicles out there. If someone bought one of my used vehicles, that would mean there was some other vehicle that didn't get bought...and gone to scrap. If we each bought vehicles less often, there would be fewer vehicles...simple. Now, that said, I am not saying that people shouldn't do it if they want. That is their choice. I'm just saying that it is more enviornmentally concious to hold onto a vehicle longer (keeping it running well and clean) than buying a new vehicle every 2-5 years. And THAT said, for a period in my life, I DID buy a new car every 5 years. But that was because the cars became unreliable after 5 years. Our Chevy trucks have been great (except for the brake lines...infuriating, but another story...), have remained reliable, and we have no reason right now to look for new ones.

[Darius Ferlas]

The issue is not what is bigger but what is more practical for an individual circumstance. Why would, for instance, a secretary commuting to a busy downtown office need a 4 door extended cab truck and pay half of her wages on gas? That would be silly, wouldn't it?

I see no reason to get a large truck for myself, and for practical purposes a C-RV is a little more than I really need for an occasional haul of some material. If lived in the country I'd look into something bigger and I'm sure I'd start looking for a tractor too. But I don't and I would look silly starting up all those 8 cylinders to go to a corner store to pick up a bottle of milk that is nowhere near 3500 pounds.

I think there is some confusion about needs and wants and the discussions seems to be heading in the the macho direction of "bigger is better". Well, all those pickup trucks may seem large but there is always a bigger boy on the road (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpojGfKCrAc) that makes you look like a sissy. You want to haul anything they throw at you and do it safely? Then don't buy those puny Chevy Crew Cabs. Get a Tatra (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoG2Inl5PEg) and go grocery shopping in style. If your style is not an issue then get what really works, especially for those who like to get their own rough lumber home (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDJYHDVw83c&playnext=1&list=PL6038025C10B48545&feature=results_main).

[Mike Cruz]

Darius, without clicking on ONE of your links, I know just what they are. ;) :D I've seen those truck on roids. And 9 times out of 10, they are overkill...even for those that DO get them.

You did hit the nail on the head about use per person. And while it may be silly for you to get a 3/4 ton pickup, I really hope you don't think people that pull up to the store to pick up some milk in them look silly...it is just that our trucks allow us to haul 10,000 lbs AND get milk...a CRV won't do both. Now, you may not need to haul that much, so, of course, a 2500 is not the right vehicle for you.

I got into this thread, not because of the macho thing, but rather because of the math thing. Buying a new car that gets better gas milage to save money, does not, in most circumstances, save you money. It would use less fuel. You will pay less money in gas. But it will/may not save you money. It may/may not (depending on how you look at it) be more "green". And for those knuckleheads out there (not pointing a finger at anyone in particular here...just in the general "out there" sense) that buy a SECOND vehicle that gets great gas milage to save money and be green, you need your head examined. The cost of car payments (or cash out if you pay for it all at once), insurance, and maintenance will far outweigh the money saved on gas. AND the fact that you are putting another car on the road means you are contributing to inevitable waste for the planet, soooooooo, not green there, either.

I just think people don't do the math sometimes...well, a lot!

[Steve Meliza]

Steve, I know you, too, value the longevity of a good vehicle. What year is that Ferrari you drive? :D It's a 2006 F-350 diesel with 130k miles. I've not had any trouble in the 2.5 years I've had it till recently when the EGR valve started sticking which was about a $500 repair. Warren Buffett was on CBS this morning driving a 5 year old Caddy because he didn't get rich by throwing his money away on new cars.

A few times I've done the math on buying a cheap, used, commuter car and every time it ends up costing me more money. The only "better for me" solution would be to sell the truck and get a large sedan and rent a truck when needed, but the money saved isn't that much. Each time I get in the truck and hear that diesel engine roar to life it puts a smile on my face. I'll move closer to my work to cut my fuel consumption in half before I'll give it up for something with twice the MPG that doesn't return the favor when I turn it on.

[Darius Ferlas]

Mike,

I think I may have a bit harsh writing about the macho and milk stuff. That may have been my uncontrollable reaction to the usual "tree hugger" comments that are inevitable during chats like this.

This indeed bothers me - the automatic association of fuel efficient vehicles with tree hugging. While I don't mind clean nature I also don't consider myself a tree hugger. Just greedy. I have so many ideas to spend money in places better than a gas station that I like spending less rather than more on fuel.

So the next time you see a person driving a Smart Car try to think: "what a greedy *****!!!" and suddenly economy car owners seem more human and friendly :)

As for the savings, many comments are right on the dot - it would be pointless to get rid of a perfectly good gas guzzler and buy a $40K battery thing when it's clear you'll never get your money's worth. Not yet anyway. For the bottom line to change we'd have to see gas prices to notch even higher.

[Mike Cruz]

Hehe, that's great, Steve. My diesel gives me the same feeling. Though, I have to admit, I was talking about Steve Cherry! :D He lives not too far from me, has been here a couple of times, and therefore knows my truck(s). His "ride" isn't a Ferrari, but a nice car none the less... ;)

[Brian Elfert]

If I had a lot of money I would probably be driving either a diesel pickup or a diesel Sprinter van. Both of them are expensive new or used. Not having a ton of money I ended up with a Dodge Caravan stripped down model without the fancy power doors and such. I would be driving a diesel vehicle today if there was any diesel vehicle between a VW Jetta and a full sized van or pickup in size.

[Ed Aumiller]

Bought a hybrid for the boss who puts a lot of miles on a car.... at $3.50 a gallon, it will break even at about 100-120,000 miles versus a similar size normal car... anything over that is gravy... (we drive our cars into the ground)....
Kept the old car for me... and keep an old pickup that is only used for hauling and towing...
Did a lot of calculating on prices, mileage, etc to determine best options and needed reliability, etc

Matt Day... live in mountains near Edinburg, Va... if you get in area, stop in and say hi...

[paul cottingham]

At 4.35 per US gallon, (and that's cheap!) going from 23 mpg (ca) to 35 mpg (ca) city made a significant improvement in our bottom line. We drive around 25000 km or more a year, so a new car made sense. Drives me nuts, I'm the kind of guy who buys beaters, drives them into the ground, then buys another. But cooler heads prevailed.
new car didn't need $ 4500 in repairs, either.

[Stephen Cherry]

Hehe, that's great, Steve. My diesel gives me the same feeling. Though, I have to admit, I was talking about Steve Cherry! :D He lives not too far from me, has been here a couple of times, and therefore knows my truck(s). His "ride" isn't a Ferrari, but a nice car none the less... ;)

2003 bmw 540, v8, six speed manual. 140k miles, 24 mpg. Maximum commute speed- XXX mph. This car has saved my buttocks on numerous occaisions.