Dust from HECK!

[Julie Moriarty]

I don't know exactly where this culprit is coming from but it's wreaking havoc on my life! I have allergies but never in my life have I had the reactions I've been having lately. I think the culprit might be maple. I have been using it on a number of projects.

All the power tools have dust collection on them. For tools like an RO sander or hand router I'll have them hooked up to a shop vac with a HEPA filter. After sanding there is barely any dust left on the wood so I know that's working pretty well. If I'm doing anything that creates dust for more than a few minutes, I'll wear a dust mask. I've been considering putting on the respirator mask lately. :rolleyes:

I was thinking of buying one of those air filtration systems that hang from the ceiling but I really wonder how much that would help keep the dust from being inhaled. Jet and Shop Fox get good reviews on Amazon but I'm worried about dropping ~$400 and it not helping.

Short of a space suit, any ideas?

Thanks,
Julie

[mreza Salav]

I have a home built air cleaner and it does work great! I think it will be much cheaper than commercial ones to build, works better (has more filter area), you can put better and less expensive filters in them (common furnace filters vs. $50 a piece for a small one for the commercial air cleaners).

[Mark Ashmeade]

I have a JDS 750-ER. Works well. I tend to put it on high, blow all the crap to one end of the shop (a basement one) with an air blow gun, and leave the room. I come back 30 mins later and use the vacuum cleaner to get the stuff I've blown into a corner. No matter what I do with some tools, I do get dust that doesn't go into the DC, so I do this fairly regularly. I like to have a clean shop.

Bizarrely, the best thing I found was an upright vacuum cleaner. The wife got a new Dyson, and I got the old one for the shop. It's fantastic for cleaning the stuff blown to the end of the shop. I have a RIDGID shop vac, but it doesn't get half the usage of the other one.

[Brian Kent]

Hi Julie. For the last several years I have been using the 3M 7500 half mask respirator. I had a really bad lung reaction to walnut burl and I have been using this ever since. No more allergy or lung problems. I got one that fit my face well and do not mind wearing it all of the time. I also have that Jet ceiling unit. It works, but has nothing to do with the ambient dust that doesn't make it into the dust collector. It is just for cleaning the shop air in general.

[Dan Hintz]

All the power tools have dust collection on them. For tools like an RO sander or hand router I'll have them hooked up to a shop vac with a HEPA filter. After sanding there is barely any dust left on the wood so I know that's working pretty well.

Just because it doesn't show too much dust on the project doesn't mean a boatload isn't ending up in the air... if it is the dust causing you issue, you can't rely on the vacuum system to get 100% of it. The hanging units will clear the dust out of the room eventually, but for at least 30 minutes you're going to have small stuff flying around. The mask every time you work is a must, and leave it on even when you're finished sanding for at least 30 minutes so the hanging unit can get the rest.

[Tom Ewell]

I use an old air cap (a baseball cap with forced air filter/face shield and battery pack) which doesn't seem to be available now.

But something similar to the forced air solutions listed below augment the rest of the dust mitigation solutions very well.

https://www.google.com/search?q=forced+air+respirator&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=35H4UPKBLYf-0gGm-4CABw&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAA&biw=1506&bih=925



http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/TR-2000/Trend-Airshield-Pro-Face-Mask-Kit

[scott vroom]

I have 2 doors at opposite ends of my shop. I installed a high velocity fan in one door that exhausts air. Whenever I run power tools I open the door at the opposite end of the shop which creates a constant cross draft that quickly carries ambient dust from the shop. I live in the SF bay area so winters aren't too cold, might be a challange in colder climates.

I also have the JDS ceiling mounted filter but only use it when I'm preparing to spray.....it's not designed to quickly remove dust whil I'm cutting/sanding etc. Had I to do it over again I would have saved the $400 and not purchased the JDS unit and just run my cross draft setup prior to spraying....probably installing filters on the air intake door

[Paul Cahill]

Short of a space suit, any ideas?
Thanks,
Julie

I use a Dylos particle counter whenever I am in the shop just to know what is going on in the air. I never have visible dust, but occasionally it is measurable, and if I see a spike I turn on the overhead Jet air cleaner, or turn it up if it was already on - works for me. You may be more sensitive to some particular dust, so needless to say, your experience may be different.

Paul

[Alan Melbourne]

i have a jet air filter.
its a great tool for long term air cleaning but not for colecting dust
if you are getting a small bit of dust on the wood then its in the air.
i have a festool ro150 and a ct22 vac
there is zero dust on the piece when i sand . maybe a sander vac set up like that would be valuble with your condition.
i have asthma and really notice dust in the air and i never need to wear a mask with the festtol sander

also just because the vac is hepa doesnt mean your safe.
check to see if the vac is reconmended for rrr work with lead etc. those vacs have hepa filters and it is better sealed to stop the dust going around the filter. (i opened my air filter and was shocked to see lines of dust in the 4 corners of the box where air and dust was able to go around the filter, a bit of sealent solved it)

also what kind of dc system are you runing . a lot of them are only dust circulaters . you should upgrade t a top of the line pleated filter or vant outside.


just remember you dont get a second chance with your health

[Wade Lippman]

http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/TR-2000/Trend-Airshield-Pro-Face-Mask-Kit

I have one of those. I only ocassionally use it when sanding or blowing out the garage.
It works well, but isn't overly comfortable or quiet.
And I surely didn't spend $400 for it; I bought it used for about $100.

[Jamie Lynch]

I have had allergy problems with birch, pine and oak. I have a a Jet AFS1000b overhead filter and wear a 3m 7500 series mask. The mask has been the single most helpful item in fighting the allergies.

[david brum]

+2 on the 7500 mask. It's the most comfortable I've tried.

[Darius Ferlas]

another one for 3M 7500

[Jim Foster]

If your not doing so yet, you may want to monitor the relative humidity in your shop with a cheap digital unit(~$5) from Home Depot, etc... If the relative humidity gets low, somewhere around 20%, health deteriorates. I know I have a more issues with dust and allergies in the winter with low humidity than during other times of the year. I would think the dust that's bothering you may be more bothersome if the humidity is also low.

[Richard Coers]

Removing dust at the source is always the best. Filters and masks are good, but one of the cheapest and relatively effective methods is to run any kind of fan near the floor. It sets up an air flow that will settle the fine stuff out of the air quicker than waiting for it to settle out. Add a furnace filter to the back of the fan, and you'll trap some it as well.

[James Nugnes]

I have to admit that while I have not to date discovered a wood type that causes me issues, I have almost gotten to the point I am not certain anything but a mask really does much more than kid me that I am really doing anything from a practical perspective. Taking that one step farther if I am going to wear a mask what the heck am I wasting my time and money with all this other stuff for.

Since the OP does have an allergy issue I am inclined to recommend the mask to him as well. Does not take much to get allergies going and I just do not think there is a room or a tool based system that will save an allergy sufferer.

[ian maybury]

I'm no expert on dust sensitivity Julie (it's a matter for a professional so don't take any of this as reliable), but understand from working in industry that it broadly goes like this. Pardon the length.

Some of us will respond in an allergic manner to certain compounds our system doesn't like right from the start - whether as a result of skin contact, inhalation or whatever. The result can be quite minor - reddening of the skin, watery eyes, runny and itchy nose or whatever - or anything up to more severe responses involving bumps, large scale swelling and so on.

Continued regular exposures can equally cause no obvious difficulty for a long time, but can in some cases where there has been some immune reaction cause moderate but gradually worsening responses. Or the response may after having been quite mild for maybe an extended period suddenly become more severe, or maybe even life threatening.

Continued exposures anyway bring an increasing risk of sensitisation - that is of the creation of a situation where our immune system starts to recognise and respond much more aggressively to a specific compound or compounds. The allergic reaction in this situation is more likely to occur again - and with increasing severity. With the risk of ramping up gradually or immediately, or anywhere in between to the point where it becomes dangerous.

Sometimes we can contact a potentially allergenic material regularly for many years, and genuinely experience no reaction whatsoever. Until that is the day when it gets past our defences, into contact with the immune system and triggers a reaction - through a cut, by inhalation, by ingestion, through an eye or whatever. Which again can be more or less severe, and may or may not lead to sensitisation.

We can become sensitised to very ordinary materials - it doesn't have to be anything that we might regard as more likely to cause a response. Ordinary soaps, woods and foodstuffs for example. It does seem however that exposure to more allergenic compounds e.g. epoxies and the like brings an increased risk of more severe reactions.

The chances of this happening seem to be influenced as well by our overall health situation. I for example suffered chronic fatigue for many years as a result of an under performing thyroid (the result is that the metabolism slows down, and many of our normal bodily processes can - but may not - end up compromised), and ended up with some food allergies and a sensitivity to breathing wood dust too. In my own case the situation eventually became fairly stable. (but not until after surgery for a chronic sinus infection, and i go to quite a lot of trouble to minimise my exposure to wood dust) It has actually improved a bit with my general health as a result of the thyroid problem (eventually after many years) being diagnosed and my starting to take extra hormone)

The risk with sensitisation is that it can lead to a situation so severe that even very minor contacts with the compound in question can kick off major allergic reactions involving anaphylactic shock and the like. People having been stung and had a reaction once or twice before can very occasionally end up dying from for example the effects of a bee sting.

Or for example very occasionally end up so they can't get into a car or enter a house because the problem compound has been used in the manufacture of something and the tiny amounts resulting from physical contact and/or outgassing into the air can trigger reactions. In more severe cases it can become necessary to ensure that the compound is simply not present in the living environment - no easy matter in some cases.

Just about the one fairly solid presumption that can be relied upon is that if a material is producing even a moderate reaction it's unwise to keep on coming in contact with it - which is why good dust systems, use of lab gloves, overalls, barrier creams, air fed masks and so on are advisable.

Given time sensitisation can subside, but often does not. There may be treatments that can help in this regard, but it seems to be far from an exact science.

Sensitisation is not the same thing at all as the other health issues we often talk about in connection with wood dust and dust systems. That's stuff like the inhalation of fine dust which physically may get lodged in the lungs, or may even pass through the tissues into the blood and be carried around the body.

That opens up the possibility of a whole range of other effects which may or may not involve sensitisation as well. The consequence may be strictly physical, or may involve sensitisation, or both. Sensitisation and continued exposure can progress into auto immune diseases. Physical consequences may include loss of lung capacity to absorb oxygen, carcinogenic effects and so on.

Sorry to be a bearer of potentially worrying news - even if it is seemingly rare to experience severe reactions. The more severe seem nevertheless to be a possibility, especially if you have had a fairly strong one before. It's equally always got to be a personal judgement call as to what lengths we go to to play the game safely on these things - many go on for years experiencing mild reactions like sore eyes and a runny nose and thinking nothing of them. Presuming no immediately severe response or unusual trigger my suspicion is that most of us most of the time get adequate warning that the body doesn't like something - that it's pressing on regardless that steps up the risk of more serious responses.

In the case of a person having had a previous fairly severe allergic reaction (e.g. one involving swelling which could progress into breathing difficulty or anaphylactic shock) doctors and hospitals will often issue an allergy syringe containing adrenaline or a similar hormone - to be self administered to head off the effects of a severe reaction.

ian

[James Nugnes]

I have a home built air cleaner and it does work great! I think it will be much cheaper than commercial ones to build, works better (has more filter area), you can put better and less expensive filters in them (common furnace filters vs. $50 a piece for a small one for the commercial air cleaners).

For this poster...is there a set of design drawings or dimensions for your home made system? I have often been frustrated by the amount that these systems increase in price just because they are noted as dust collectors when the premium hardly seems justified. As I stated earlier I am inclined to a mask just because I really don't trust much else from a cost to performance perspective. But I might like to try to build a system myself if I had a set of plans.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Julie, I too have allergy issues, and although this is completely based on my experiences I have to agree with what Ian said. In my experience though, I had an "allergic" reaction that actually turned out to have something more serious at the root. Fixable, but the allergy symptoms were just an indicator. It really may not be a bad idea to see the doc if simple measures don't help.

I seem to remember you looking into a Festool vac, is that what you are using for dust collection?

[Jim Neeley]

As a side comment, allergies are on reason why some shift from power to hand tools and techniques such as "finishing with a hand plane rather than a sander". On the rare occasion when sanding may be necessary, it should be very limited (i.e. a little hand-sanding) and for that period, a respirator worn.

I'm fortunate to not have any allergies (at least not yet) but still have switched to predominantly hand saws, planes, etc. even with a CV, HEPA shop vac, Jet room air filter, and a full suite of power tools. I'll wear a respirator when needed, but I sure don't like it and I don't want to press my luck!!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

As a side comment, allergies are on reason why some shift from power to hand tools and techniques such as "finishing with a hand plane rather than a sander". On the rare occasion when sanding may be necessary, it should be very limited (i.e. a little hand-sanding) and for that period, a respirator worn.

I'm fortunate to not have any allergies (at least not yet) but still have switched to predominantly hand saws, planes, etc. even with a CV, HEPA shop vac, Jet room air filter, and a full suite of power tools. I'll wear a respirator when needed, but I sure don't like it and I don't want to press my luck!!

+1, plane beats a sander any day in my book.

[Roger Rayburn]

I'm in the respirator camp, Julie. I've read a lot about collectors and filters. I am of the opinion that If you've got the bucks you buy the collector that delivers the best extraction at the source of the dust, the best filter for clearing the air that the collector misses and the best respirator to protect your lungs from the dust the filter misses. I don't have those bucks because if I spend all of my money on dust control I couldn't afford to buy material to create sawdust. The respirator is the last line of defense and will at least give you protection until you can fund the next step. Go to Bill Pentz's page and get an education: http://billpentz.com/Woodworking/Cyclone/Muffler.cfm

[mreza Salav]

For this poster...is there a set of design drawings or dimensions for your home made system? I have often been frustrated by the amount that these systems increase in price just because they are noted as dust collectors when the premium hardly seems justified. As I stated earlier I am inclined to a mask just because I really don't trust much else from a cost to performance perspective. But I might like to try to build a system myself if I had a set of plans.

Sorry I don't have a plan or drawing as it was very simple thing to build (on the fly). It's a big box that houses the motor and a squirrel cage blower; has two 16x20 filters on both sides (see here): http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103512-Home-made-air-cleaner&highlight=

I have added on more layer (so each side has two layers of filters). The inner ones are better/more expensive and I don't have to change frequently (I have changed only once) as almost all the dust are captured by the outer filters. It quickly cleans the air in the shop. Using one of those air quality monitors I have tested the air quality and usually it's very good if I keep this running.

I could take a few more photos later if you want (showing inside).

[James Nugnes]

I could take a few more photos later if you want (showing inside).

I would really appreciate whatever you could provide on the inside detail. I am going to try to build one of these things as it seems to practical to let it go by.

One thing that prompts me to do this is the relative cost of the commercially available versions compared to their reviews. That is what I was referring to earlier commenting about the premium the commercial models seem to command. It is like a relatively inexpensive grouping of components ends up at a premium price because those components rolled up into a "dust collector" or an "air filtration system". Rather build one myself.

[Fred Belknap]

I would suggest a system like Trend Pro or 3M which blows filtered air over your face. It is the only thing that I found would work for me.

[Jim Andrew]

I had a cold earlier this winter, and now I don't seem to be able to tolerate ANY dust. Cleaning up is especially a problem. Instead of sweeping now, have been using my vac. And don't want to sand at all. So right now I'm just putting things together and holding off on the sanding.

[Steve Milito]

You need to wear a mask, or find a new hobby, if it is a true allergy. Your immune system can get more and more sensitive to each exposure once you develop an allergy. At some point in time, it is possible to have a life threatening reaction to the allergen.

[Julie Moriarty]

Holy $**t! I had no idea so many woodworkers had the same problem. Just reading the replies was making me sneeze!

I started working construction (electrician) in 1974. No one cared about minor safety precautions back then. I wore leather gloves but that was okay because, "You're a girl." But they guys all had to tough it out. It wasn't until the mid 90's that contractors started insisting on better safety measures but you'd still see guys drilling concrete overhead without any breathing protection and their faces would be white when they were done. Who knows how much junk I've inhaled over the years.

Lots of great ideas and suggestions here. I have a respirator I've used to spray paint the house and I have new filters for it. That will be my go-to until I figure out where to go with this issue. My doctor has given up on prescribing meds and tells me to find another hobby. I probably have over $20K in tools and stock so that advice won't be taken anytime soon. I also make some fun money on things I sell and enjoy giving gifts I made.

But I think the first thing I have to do is thoroughly clean up the shop. It's probably been over a year. Plus it's more conducive to productivity when it's clean. The fan blowing over the work seems like another quick fix. As for using a plane and other hand tools, I have been making that move but really gnarly woods don't take well to edge tools. I have two planes that seem to be okay, a #62 low angle jack plane and a #112 block plane. The jack plane has an adjustable mouth that I have to set paper thin when working figured woods and the blade has to be razor sharp. Still, it's amazing how big the shavings pile grows. Imagine that reduced to dust! :eek:

BTW, the DC is a cyclone and sends particulates to the outside. The shop vac though is an old Craftsman but has a HEPA filter in it. I've been looking at Festool but it's SOOOO expensive! Bosch makes a shop vac that's rated as good as Festool but even that is around $500.

[Erik Christensen]

+1 on the recommendation to spend time on Bill Penz's site - he has the best set of pages re dust collection that i have seen I learned a lot from that site

one thing I got is the dust that is the biggest biological hazard is dust you can't see - particles that down in the micron size range - so the fact that I can't "see" any dust after sanding or cutting does NOT mean my shop air is healthy

I am lucky that, so far, all the wood that I am currently using I am OK with - the exception being Ipe/ironwood - sanding that even with a festool sander/vac is nasty and makes me feel like crap.

[Andrew Joiner]

The simplest solution is to wear a good dust mask. The most comfortable and effective mask I've found is the 3M 7500. I hate it cause it drips condensation and moves my eyeglasses up, but I hate breathing dust more. I made a drip catcher for it that works great,but after an hour I need to take it off and wipe it down.

I was researching dust collector efficiency a while back and found that Bill Pentz recommended wearing a mask, even with the best dust collection.

[Harry Hagan]

This topic hasn’t come up in a while so I’ll say it one more time: It’s the particles that are too small to see that are the most harmful because they penetrate deeper into your lungs. They are still circulating after you shut down the dust collector and remove that mask thinking the air is clear and safe to breathe.

We use air-supplied respirators in my shop and add a hood when spraying.


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[mreza Salav]

I would really appreciate whatever you could provide on the inside detail. I am going to try to build one of these things as it seems to practical to let it go by.

One thing that prompts me to do this is the relative cost of the commercially available versions compared to their reviews. That is what I was referring to earlier commenting about the premium the commercial models seem to command. It is like a relatively inexpensive grouping of components ends up at a premium price because those components rolled up into a "dust collector" or an "air filtration system". Rather build one myself.

Here are some, the outer filters are added after I realized how quickly the filters need to be changed, they are held in place with a couple of rubber bands are very easy to change or clean.

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[Ole Anderson]

The Jet and others are a two stage filter, the outer filter being a quality furnace type 1" pre-filter, the inner one being a micron bag style filter. I have a 4" extendable hose for my dust collector which I use it to clean the pre-filter in-place. Seems to work well. I have had my Dust-Right for 2 years and haven't changed the filters. Still blowing plenty of clean air.

[Richard Coers]

This topic hasn’t come up in a while so I’ll say it one more time: It’s the particles that are too small to see that are the most harmful because they penetrate deeper into your lungs. They are still circulating after you shut down the dust collector and remove that mask thinking the air is clear and safe to breathe.

We use air-supplied respirators in my shop and add a hood when spraying.



251555

Not only deep into your lungs, but into the bloodstream as well. That's when the immune system goes on high alert. http://www.epa.gov/pm/health.htm

[Jim Andrew]

Mreza, did you build that yourself? Been thinking of doing that myself.

[mreza Salav]

Yes, I built it out of a furnace fan + motor (bought for $20), a solid wood frame to which BB ply is attached.

[Julie Moriarty]

This topic hasn’t come up in a while so I’ll say it one more time: It’s the particles that are too small to see that are the most harmful because they penetrate deeper into your lungs. They are still circulating after you shut down the dust collector and remove that mask thinking the air is clear and safe to breathe.

251555

That look is exactly what I don't want. I hate hard hats and I know wearing anything that straps around your face will eventually become so uncomfortable that you'll avoid doing whatever requires it. And still, even with that kind of protection, stuff can get into your ears and eyes. But yes, I know, there has to be some concessions made or just give up woodworking altogether.

I started a thorough cleaning of the shop today, wearing a 3M respirator. It needs it. So that's not a bad thing.

I'm looking at making a MERV 13 (Min. particle size: 0.3–1.0 μm - Typical controlled contaminant: Bacteria, droplet nuclei, cooking oil, most smoke and insecticide dust, most face powder, most paint pigments - Typical Application: hospital & general surgery) HEPA air filtration system that will move air in the shop, lessen the amount of dust that settles and trap whatever dust is floating around. Any sanding will require wearing the respirator.

I think I'll also staple visqueen over the trusses to seal off the workroom. That may reduce the dust in the house too.

But if things get so bad I have to suit up like her, I'm selling my house and all the large power tools and buying a sailboat. I'll let Mother Nature be my air filter. This Swan 391 should do just fine... Though I may have to do something about that yellow/orange thing. :D
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/resize/1/92/17/4169217_20121217090410_1_LARGE.jpg

[Ole Anderson]

Julie, not a boat gloat:rolleyes:

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, not a boat gloat:rolleyes:

If I owned something like that, definitely a gloat. For now it's just an ever occurring dream, something like 40-year-long dream. :p


Here are some, the outer filters are added after I realized how quickly the filters need to be changed, they are held in place with a couple of rubber bands are very easy to change or clean.

While what I've got planned won't move air nearly as well as that furnace fan in your pics, the part about "the outer filters are added after I realized how quickly the filters need to be changed" speaks volumes about how much dust is floating around a wood shop.

Once, in the mid-80's, I was called into to change some lighting in an auto body shop. I was impressed with how spotless the place was. The owner was proud of how clean he kept his shop.

I took a man lift up to the ceiling to scope out the work and saw black dust over an inch thick sitting on every bar joist, angle iron, light fixture, and every other flat surface. You couldn't see any of it from the floor. And they had been there less than a year.

While cleaning up the shop yesterday I saw dust everywhere, even places I thought were clean. It was a fine dust and I had to be careful not to kick it back up into the air. About an hour after I had cleaned one section, I returned to the shop to do a little fix-up work in the newly cleaned area. I didn't wear a mask because there was no sanding, only hand planing. By the time I went to bed I was coughing big time. I must have inhaled whatever was still floating around the shop and didn't even know it.

I think I have a new religion - wood dust capturing. The sailboat is looking better every moment.