Order of Operations in Case Work

[Chris Griggs]

I'm working on a small-medium sized cabinet at the moment (about 40" tall by 20" wide). I've got the stock prepped for the case, and in thinking about moving forward am struggling with the same VERY basic thing that I struggle with more than anything else in handtool work. That is figuring out what the best order to do things in is.

For this particular case, the are 4 types of joints to potentially be completed in any order.

- The top of the case will be joined to the sides with half blind dovetails (Don't worry Zach and Dave, the pins are on top and will hide the endgrain of the tails, and the tails are on the side so that endgrain will hide behind moldings)

- The bottom shelf (which is also more or less the bottom of the main case will be joined the sides with a sliding dovetail

- The other 3 shelves will sit in shallow dados

- I need to cut rabbets on the back of the top and sides of the case for the back to eventually rest in.


What I've done in the past is using the back edges as my reference surfaces layout all the critical interior joinery on both case sides a the same time: the shoulders for the dados/sliding dovetail, the baselines for the dovetails, and the also the rabbet before I do any cutting. I then cut the rabbet, followed by the dados, and end with the dovetails/sliding dovetails. I do the dovetails/sliding dovetails last because as soon as those are fit I want to glueup the case. My thinking being that if I do them first and the then the rest of the interior, I run the risk of having to refit them later and/or having to assemble/disassemble them more times then is ideal.

I am curious how other folks would order their operations on a project like this (or any casework) in terms of both layout and actual execution of the joinery. Any reasoning for you order of operations or for an alternative to my order of operations mentioned above would also be appreciated. This is the kind that rarely covered in books/mags and no matter how much I build (which isn't all that much) its the one thing I lack the most confidence in. I feel like I'm just always figuring it out as I go....

I look forward to a discussion as lively as the recent chipbreaker threads :D

[Bob Jones]

I think I did basically what you described. I would add one thing that I thought was good. Before laying anything out I clamped my two sides together and planed all 4 edges to be exactly the same all the way around. Then i marked all the middle joints at the same time. I figured that at least everything should line up if not perfectly square.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for responding Bob! I was getting worried I'd only get crickets on this. Glad to here that my order of ops is what someone else is doing as well. I actually mark out the center to. I don't do the clamping of everything together, but I marked and plane my pieces all to the same the same width. What I focus on is making sure my 3 reference faces (one face, one edge, and one end) are true and square. As long as everything is aligned and marked out from those it ensures alignment even if other aspects are imperfect.

Anyone else have an opinion here? Come on folks! I know many of you are better woodworkers than I...I've seen your work. This is actually a furniture making question. Would it help if I asked what plane I should by next;)?

Beuller, Bueller, Bueller?

[Zach Dillinger]

+1 to Bob's message. I'd go about it in the same way. I'm curious, though, why you would need a sliding dovetail on the bottom board. Is there not a true bottom, or is the shelf itself the bottom? If the shelf itself is the bottom, you could use through dovetails and cover it up with a molding. This is classic case construction.

[David Weaver]

I would do the joinery on the outside and then mark the shelves afterward, though for something like shelves I don't know that it matters that much.

If I was working with power tools, I would lay everything out at the outset. If we were smart, we'd put it together with handtools and sneak the groove in the back with a router. What are you putting in the back?

It's funny that you're building something this size. I am mid-process in a similar piece, but it's just supposed to be a functional bookcase for my daughter, it's turned out to be about 44x28 (horizontal), and I will hide the HBDT at the top with mouldings also (through dovetails at the bottom sitting in rabbeted base to hide those, too), but I haven't yet decided what they'll look like or how I'll attach them to the back of the case if they are glued on in the front (my case will be deep, almost 13" to the back rabbet - the mouldings will be something substantial). In my case, the shape was dictated by the wife and rather than segment the thing into four parts (because of the length of the shelf) I think I'm just going to put top 3/4ths depth dividers top and bottom in stopped dados. Then maybe they won't look so garish once the thing is full of books.

I would so much rather build tools! I'm dumb as a doornail with furniture, but I just don't enjoy it very much - maybe that's why.

I'm sure there's accepted practice for steps, but I'll never build the same thing a second time so it's not like we're going to build a routine. The nice thing about working with hand tools is the work more or less stays in front of you and it turns up the way you visualize it turning up, as opposed to marking a whole bunch of stuff with measurements at the beginning, cutting everything and then hoping it all fits and that you didn't have a bum mark.

It's nice to cut the HBDTs knowing that they'll be covered by mouldings. It looks better AND it's so much nicer to bang those out than it is to fiddle at them.

[Jim Stewart]

I am kind of lost here on the bottom shelf as well. If it is the bottom of the case it would have been joined by half blind dovetails as well. I like the thought of aligning all sides and planing them true before laying out the dovetail joints.

[Chris Griggs]

+1 to Bob's message. I'd go about it in the same way. I'm curious, though, why you would need a sliding dovetail on the bottom board. Is there not a true bottom, or is the shelf itself the bottom? If the shelf itself is the bottom, you could use through dovetails and cover it up with a molding. This is classic case construction.

Honestly the main reason is just to get some practice with sliding dovetails where they will be hidden any (as a molded base with feet will cover it). In the past I've done what you described and then attached backing to the underside to support and attach the base too. I just kinda wanted to try something different. Also, because the side will extend an inch or so past the sliding dovetailed bottom, I can attached the base to the side rather then having to build in an additional structure underneath.

I certainly could do what you describe, again, mostly just wanted to try something new. I try to throw some basic skill building into most my projects.

Not sure if any of that is clear. Given the the case will sit on a base it doesn't really matter how the bottom shelf is joined. Each method would need to address wood movement slightly different in how I attached the base, but other than that I don't think it really matters. I have no aversion to doing it the classical way, and its not too late to change my mind. Again just wanted to experiment with something different.

[Zach Dillinger]

I certainly could do what you describe, again, mostly just wanted to try something new. I try to throw some basic skill building into most my projects.

And that's a great reason to do it. I was just curious! Good luck!

[Chris Griggs]

Dave, my impression is that what you described, completing the outside joinery first is what most people would do. I guess as long as the wood is square, ones layout is good and one sticks with ther layout when cutting the joints, it may not matter either way.

My main reasons for the order I've used is really just to minimize having to take apart and put back together the dovetails (not that that's that big a deal.

I agree it is fun to to just whiz through the dovetails when they will be covered up.

I like the sound of your case. Making the dados stopped is a good idea. My shelves will be in stopped dados too, and also, rabbeted/lipped to cover up the dado joint - my case will have doors, so that's overkill, but I prefer that look. I haven't quite figured out my moldings yet either, other then that they'll be 1 1/4" high (as it fits the scale of the cabinet). For the moldings on the side I usually just glue the first few inches drive a brad nails down the res to the way. I've seen other ways to attached moulding with sliding dovetails, but the nails are so quick and easy and once I fill the holed with glue and sawdust they are barely noticeable. This current case is sized to hold DVDs so its only like 7" deep and therefore I can probably get away with gluing them all the way down.

Zach, I'd be curious to here your preferred method (which I assume is historical) for attaching moldings (I've become a Zach Dillinger fan boy)

[Zach Dillinger]

Chris, when the molding is cross grain to the case, like a side piece of crown or base, I glue the mitered ends to each other, glue an inch or two on the cross grain piece back from the miter, then nail the piece down the rest of the way. On the with-the-grain piece, i.e. a front piece of crown or base, I'll just glue it down the whole way and only use nails if I can't get the piece clamped down enough to hold it until the glue dries. My preferred method for clamping such molding if not using hot hide glue is anything but historical... I like to use clear packing tape to "clamp" down the molding. It's easy to do and comes off clean.

[David Weaver]

Zach, I'd be curious to here your preferred method (which I assume is historical) for attaching moldings (I've become a Zach Dillinger fan boy)

I'm curious, too, especially for mouldings that run a foot or so with grain perpendicular to whatever they're attached.

Why do the work of learning if Zach can just tell us :)

[Zach Dillinger]

Why do the work of learning if Zach can just tell us :)

Well, if that's the attitude, I'm just not going to post ever again! :)

[Chris Griggs]

Okay, that's exactly what I do to attach the moldings as well, Zach. Good to know I'm doing a few things right. The one thing I do differently is when I clamp the moldings I use molding offcuts and flip them up side down facing the moldings on the case so that the shapes complement each other and give me a flat surface to clamp against. This wouldn't work with all molding profiles, but it works when you have a decent sized cove in the molding.



Why do the work of learning if Zach can just tell us :)


I agree. One more question. What is the right way to spell molding?

Is it "molding or moulding" (I say only half kidding). Maybe if your cases have rebates and housings its moulding, but if your cases have rabbets and dados its molding.

[David Weaver]

We could call them "dug out grooves and router profile shaped thingies"

[Chris Griggs]

We could call them "dug out grooves and router profile shaped thingies"

That would be the politically correct name.

[Adam Cherubini]

Hi Chris
We're practically neighbors!

When I do carcases, I plane the boards, usually heartside out. To maintain the flatness of the sides, I think it's advantageous to have the tails on the top board. There is very little force pulling the top off. But what you are doing in certainly not unknown. Just need a good quality glue joint.

Never use the back of the piece as the reference face. The back may not be parallel to the front and all your shelves could be crooked. What I do is layout my drawer dividers/shelves on one board, then transfer the marks to the second with the boards face to face. Both boards have penciled layout lines. Then I introduce a straight edge across both boards. I line up everything I can. Because the (front) reference faces are touching, the squared lines should be straight (make sense?) becuase the reference faces are touching.

Then you apply the dadoes. Nailed on battens, then go for it. The reason to do dadoes first is that the exit of the dado will probably spelch fibers. But no matter, the rabbet will take away any mess you make. It's also easy to clamp boards with a pipe clamp if you have to when there isn't a rabbet (or even a finished edge).

When you go to assemble, you want to support the SIDES. So, I often do tails on top and bottom boards to hold the sides straight and together. Also easier to mark this way if you cut tails first as I do. Then the backers would all run side to side to hold the sides toegther in the back, then sliding dovetails on every divider to hold the sides together in the front. This was a hard won lesson. I have piece in my house that I didn't do this to and they are having problems.

Good idea to do dts last.

Obviously there are many ways to skin this cat. And note that there are different valid methods of construction. I'm assuming this is not boarded construction (due to discussion of dovetails).

BUT: (full disclosure) I looked at old pieces and copied what was done. Where I departed from that with my "spirit of innovation" (aka ignorance), I typically discovered why it was done the other way (lesson learned the hard way).

[Zach Dillinger]

Okay, that's exactly what I do to attach the moldings as well, Zach. Good to know I'm doing a few things right. The one thing I do differently is when I clamp the moldings I use molding offcuts and flip them up side down facing the moldings on the case so that the shapes complement each other and give me a flat surface to clamp against. This wouldn't work with all molding profiles, but it works when you have a decent sized cove in the molding.




I agree. One more question. What is the right way to spell molding?

Is it "molding or moulding" (I say only half kidding). Maybe if your cases have rebates and housings its moulding, but if your cases have rabbets and dados its molding.

Dunno re: spelling of molding. I never add the extra "u", as I am not British (not for the last 250 years or so anyway). I also say aluminum, not aluminium. But that's a whole different story...

I've done the offcut molding clamp technique as well. My problem with it is that I try to make as little molding as possible, since it takes a lot of work to make them. Plus, since my moldings are hand made and vary along the length, it is important to try to cut adjoining sections (i.e. mitered corners) of the molding with as little waste between the pieces as possible. This allows you to have moldings that aren't exactly the same, but that still line up at the miter. So I simply don't produce enough offcuts to make efficient use of that technique. So, nails and packing tape work for me.

[Chris Griggs]

Adam, I didn't realize you were less than 30 minutes from me. Do you ever teach classes in the area or give lessons?

Okay so everything you said makes sense to me with one exception. I don't understand why it matters whether the back edge or the front edge is your reference edge. Either way if the opposite edges are a touch out of parallel you need to do some flushing up. What am I missing?

I will say I'm glade you addressed this as I was wondering if it was better to use the back or front edges as a reference. I've been using the back just because somewhere I got the idea in my head that the reference side was typically the one that is not the show side. I guess that applies more for faces than edges, since joinery is cut on the inside. Anyway, one reason I was thinking of using the front instead of the back edge is because once I cut my rabbet I loose my back reference face to some extent, but like I said, in terms of the out of parallel issue, I'm not quite following you yet. Either way I'll use my front edges as references this time, whether or not I fully understand why, I can see some advantages and I trust that you know what your talking about,

As far as the layout and transferring marks that's pretty close to what I've been doing, but because I've been using my back edges as references I have those touching when I transfer the marks from one board to the other and when I scribe the line.

The reason I've been cutting the dados before the rabbets is exactly the reason you do it the other way around. I was thinking that the rabbet plane might spelch out the edges of the dado when I cut across them, but what you said makes perfect sense too.

I also see what you mean about putting the tail board on top. I was going to do this originally and use a double lap dovetail to keep the tails blind, but than got to feeling that it would just be quicker and easier just to use HBDT and put the pines on top. Maybe I'll go back to my original plan. I haven't use double lap dovetails in a project yet so that would be a good excercise.

Thanks for the detailed response Adam. Very helpful.

[Chris Griggs]

Dunno re: spelling of molding. I never add the extra "u", as I am not British (not for the last 250 years or so anyway). I also say aluminum, not aluminium. But that's a whole different story...

Same here, for some reason that's a word that I frequently see spelled both ways in the US (unlike colour or aluminium)

[Chris Griggs]

Hi Chris

BUT: (full disclosure) I looked at old pieces and copied what was done. Where I departed from that with my "spirit of innovation" (aka ignorance), I typically discovered why it was done the other way (lesson learned the hard way).


Sound advice! I've had the experience as well. Just about anytime I depart greatly from what the standard I quickly see why things are done a certain way much of the time

[David Weaver]

Well, if that's the attitude, I'm just not going to post ever again! :)

Hey, man...let me copy your homework!!

[Zach Dillinger]

Hey, man...let me copy your homework!!

No, we'll get in trouble!

[Chris Griggs]

No, we'll get in trouble!

Well at least let us have peek inside your spice chest!

[Zach Dillinger]

Well at least let us have peek inside your spice chest!

All in good time, my friend, all in good time :)