New User - Building a Hifi Rack

[Finnian Dawson]

Hi all,

This is my first post, there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum!
I am beginner woodworker, and only have basic tools and very basic woodworking knowledge.

My aim is to start woodwork as a hobby for weekends, and my first project is to build Hifi rack. I would like to keep it similar to the attached picture

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Note that this picture shows spikes under the supports, which I would prefer to exclude.

Currently I have a piece of kitchen worktop similar to the below, however it is made from rubberwood. It measures 63" length x 23" wide x 1.5" thick

I do not have a circular saw, or other type of saw that could cut this piece into the general size of the shelves, but can get this done by a friend of a friend.

What joinery method would you recommend to attach the supports to each tier? Bear in mind that this rack needs to be extremely sturdy.

Thanks!
Finnian

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[Steven Satur]

I made one years ago buy gluing up 2 layers of 3/4 MDF to end up with 1 1/2" thick. Then used 3/4 allthread with nuts and washers top and bottom to clamp the shelves for resonance control. Then used spikes just for the floor. I then painted the shelves with black granite spray paint. It is very close to the old Michael Green Clamp Rack.
I can't believe that some of those custom racks sell for $8,000-$15,000.
I think the MDF absorbs vibrations better then what you want to use.
Years ago I got bit by the highend audio bug and can tell you it is a disease.

Steve

Steve

[Finnian Dawson]

I made one years ago buy gluing up 2 layers of 3/4 MDF to end up with 1 1/2" thick. Then used 3/4 allthread with nuts and washers top and bottom to clamp the shelves for resonance control. Then used spikes just for the floor. I then painted the shelves with black granite spray paint. It is very close to the old Michael Green Clamp Rack.
I can't believe that some of those custom racks sell for $8,000-$15,000.
I think the MDF absorbs vibrations better then what you want to use.
Years ago I got bit by the highend audio bug and can tell you it is a disease.

Steve

Steve

Thanks Steve - exactly the same has happened to me in that I have been bitten by the hifi bug! Got some Naim gear I want to put on this rack.
I think I will stick with using the rubberwood, and possibly add some sorbothane where I can.

I would do what you suggested, but I do not want the allthread exposed. I would like to use wood as supports, or if not wood, then chrome pipe or something similar.

Any suggestions?

[Steven Satur]

The allthread gives you adj. for ventilation if you have tubes, plus if you ever change equip. you can then move the shelves. The alltread don't look bad painted black. I do not know how you would attach the chrome tubes. It would not be good if you built the rack then the darn thing rattles.

Steve

[Finnian Dawson]

The allthread gives you adj. for ventilation if you have tubes, plus if you ever change equip. you can then move the shelves. The alltread don't look bad painted black. I do not know how you would attach the chrome tubes. It would not be good if you built the rack then the darn thing rattles.

Steve

I guess it may look pretty ok when painted. Still would like wooden supports. Does anybody know how I could go about this? Could i put threaded inserts in the support and in the underside of each tier, and cut allthread to a suitable lenght. Then screw one end of the all thread into a support, and then screw the support / allthread assembly into the shelf above it?

[Steven Satur]

How about drilling a hole in the center of the block and run allthread from top to bottom.
Still use spikes at the floor.

Steve

[Homer Faucett]

How about cutting a dado in the wood support to surround the all thread on three sides. The open end is pointed toward the wall, so you don't see it. Then, you can still remove and adjust the all thread if you need to.

[Larry Browning]

So Steven got bit by high end audio and Finnian by Hifi. Isn't that the same thing? Or does Hifi mean something different now days?

[Finnian Dawson]

So Steven got bit by high end audio and Finnian by Hifi. Isn't that the same thing? Or does Hifi mean something different now days?

Yep, they are the same thing Larry.

I actually do not need the facility to access the threaded bar, so it can be covered for good!

[Larry Browning]

I think the idea of the all thread is a good one. It will give you flexibility for changing the spacer height later on if you choose to. Plus, it will allow you to bolt the whole assembly together making it rock solid. You can make a top cap from the same material as the shelf spacers.

[Finnian Dawson]

I think the idea of the all thread is a good one. It will give you flexibility for changing the spacer height later on if you choose to. Plus, it will allow you to bolt the whole assembly together making it rock solid. You can make a top cap from the same material as the shelf spacers.

So forgive me for such a basic question, but should I use one continuous all thread section running from top to bottom of the unit in each of the four corners?
How will I be able to run this all thread through my spacers? Again, my apologies, I really am a newcomer to woodwork.

What tools would I need to do this?

[Larry Browning]

So forgive me for such a basic question, but should I use one continuous all thread section running from top to bottom of the unit in each of the four corners?
How will I be able to run this all thread through my spacers? Again, my apologies, I really am a newcomer to woodwork.

What tools would I need to do this?
That is the way I am envisioning it. You would have to drill a hole through all the shelves and vertically through the spacers and run the all-thread through all that. You can then add a nut at the top and one at the bottom to bolt the whole assembly together. That would make it rock solid. If you could somehow find access to a drill press, it would make the job quick and easy. If not, you could probably do it by hand, drilling as straight as you can. I can do "pretty" well using some squares as visual guides. I would also use a little larger dia. drill bit to allow some wiggle room for the all-thread. Once again, a drill press is much preferred.
Tools needed:
A drill press or electric hand drill.
A drill bit long enough to drill at least half way through your longest spacer and larger in dia than the all-thread.

[Finnian Dawson]

That is the way I am envisioning it. You would have to drill a hole through all the shelves and vertically through the spacers and run the all-thread through all that. You can then add a nut at the top and one at the bottom to bolt the whole assembly together. That would make it rock solid. If you could somehow find access to a drill press, it would make the job quick and easy. If not, you could probably do it by hand, drilling as straight as you can. I can do "pretty" well using some squares as visual guides. I would also use a little larger dia. drill bit to allow some wiggle room for the all-thread. Once again, a drill press is much preferred.
Tools needed:
A drill press or electric hand drill.
A drill bit long enough to drill at least half way through your longest spaces and larger in dia than the all-thread.

Thanks Larry, how does the drill press make it easier?
Also, is there any way that the exposed nut on the top shelf that screws onto the top of the all-thread could be hidden?

[Steven Satur]

A drill press is the way to go, or a hand drill. But you have to make a jig so that every hole in all four corners are in the same place on the shelves. If not you will have a heck of a time getting the allthread all the was down I put a acord nut at the top, and my spikes have a 3/4 female tread for the bottom.

Steve

[Finnian Dawson]

A drill press is the way to go, or a hand drill. But you have to make a jig so that every hole in all four corners are in the same place on the shelves. If not you will have a heck of a time getting the allthread all the was down I put a acord nut at the top, and my spikes have a 3/4 female tread for the bottom.

Steve

So I would have to stack each of the four tiers, one on top of the other on a drill press, and then plunge the drill down with a very very long drill bit?
Sorry, I really would be lost without finding out the nitty gritty details!

Could I not take each tier, and for example, measure in 1 inch from each edge and drill here. And do the very same for the next tier and so on. will they not line up then?

[Steven Satur]

Mark all your posts dead center. Then drill a hole dead nut straight alittle oversized. A drill press would be best. A hand drill would be hard to keep it straight all the way thru. Then make a jig up for your corner shelf locations so every hole is in the same place. Again drill a oversized hole. If you don't oversize it the treads will get jambed up in the hole
One lenght of alltread perside from top to bottom.

Steve

[Finnian Dawson]

Augner bit maybe for this length? Or would a long forstner be better for this application?

[Steven Satur]

A auger bit would work for the posts, a forstner would do the shelves.
Do you have a drill press?
How tall are you posts? If you have a drill press you can drill half way, flip it then drill the rest.

Steve

[Steven Satur]

One question that I forgot. Why don't you want spike on all shelves? That would be best for sonics.

Steve

[Finnian Dawson]

One question that I forgot. Why don't you want spike on all shelves? That would be best for sonics.

Steve

It's just that i'm not convinced of the benefits of spiking all shelves, and they are not aesthetically appealing to me. Also, using spikes will rule out the threaded bar option

[Steven Satur]

Considering that they are about $40.00 each, they do add up. I do think the add to the sound. If I had the money I would have bought a Finite rack.

Steve

[Finnian Dawson]

Considering that they are about $40.00 each, they do add up. I do think the add to the sound. If I had the money I would have bought a Finite rack.

Steve

I have a solid state amp, dac etc, not valves/tubes so i think the spikes are much less important.

When I cut my worktop into the 4 shelves, I will not have spare material left over for all of the supports. Any suggestions on where I could source them, possibly ready made?

[Steven Satur]

I started out with solid state, but then things change over time.
I never in all my years saw rubberwood. Can you post a photo? You could always use some contrasting wood like cherry. The harder the better.

Steve

[Finnian Dawson]

I started out with solid state, but then things change over time.
I never in all my years saw rubberwood. Can you post a photo? You could always use some contrasting wood like cherry. The harder the better.

Steve

Will get a photo up Steve, no prob. Btw thanks for your responses.

[Michael Wildt]

Not sure how handy you are so forgive me if I've gone too far in the explanation.

To be able to lock it all together as one unit one threaded rod in each corner should do it. You drill holes in each corner of the shelf and the associated spacers. One thing to pay attention to is to keep the spacers same length per shelf else they wont end up being level. Depending on the distance between each shelf it may become a challenge to drill the hole for the rod through the spacer. You can get long drill bits or even extenders if needed. Just make the hole a little over size (so its a little larger than the rod you end up choosing) to accommodate in case its not drilled accurately. As long as the spacers are cut so the ends are parallel you shouldn't have issues. If you want to lock it all together at each shelf then you'll need to drill one end of the spacer so there is room for a nut/washer.

To decouple the rack from the floor drill a indention in the end of each rod, that goes towards the floor, then use some cones (with pointy side up into the indention you drilled in the rod, flat side on the floor).

Let me try to list the 'stacking order' of one corner, assuming you have 4 shelf's. Put a locking nut on the rod end where you drilled into the end for the 'cone', put that end on the floor. Put a washer on, then one of your spacers followed by a shelf. Then a spacer and a nut (here the nut could be a lock nut or a regular nut, your choice). Assemble all corners so you have one complete unit. Level the shelf by adjusting the nuts, then tighten etc. Put a spacer that has a larger hole in one end onto the rod, now the washer/nut is hidden, then add the next shelf and continue as before. When you get the top shelf on you can (assuming you want the rods exposed) end the assembly with a washer and a acorn nut. That type of nut will hide the end of the rod. If you need to cut the rods same length then put on a nut first, cut then back off the nut and then file the cut so you do not have damaged threads.

Tools wise you'll need a skill saw and a straight edge (could be a piece of mdf shelving), a drill with a long drill bit and maybe an extender. Some clamps to hold to a work table as you drill the legs. If you want the legs to be thicker than your 1.5" table top you can glue two pieces together, clamps come handy there as well. Some sandpaper and some clear coat or oil for finish. May want to draw it all out on paper first so you're sure you have enough wood. If you can get help from a friend then have him show you what to do so you can learn. Bring a six pack. If no help is available consider finding a wood working class at a community college or maybe post your location in case a creek'er is local to you.

[Michael Wildt]

I see that you may not have enough wood for the spacers. Just skip them, use the threaded rod for now. Get it all together and see how it works out. Then when you know the distance you can source some wood or some electrical conduit or copper pipe to cover the rods.

[Joe Mioux]

I made one years ago buy gluing up 2 layers of 3/4 MDF to end up with 1 1/2" thick. Then used 3/4 allthread with nuts and washers top and bottom to clamp the shelves for resonance control. Then used spikes just for the floor. I then painted the shelves with black granite spray paint. It is very close to the old Michael Green Clamp Rack.
I can't believe that some of those custom racks sell for $8,000-$15,000.
I think the MDF absorbs vibrations better then what you want to use.
Years ago I got bit by the highend audio bug and can tell you it is a disease.

Steve

Steve
Yea it's a disease all right!

makes acquiring woodworking tools seem inexpensive

[Finnian Dawson]

Yea it's a disease all right!

makes acquiring woodworking tools seem inexpensive

I feel the same. What the heck, I'll go ahead and buy that brand new deWalt router I've had my eye on, after all it's cheaper than my speaker cable!

[Finnian Dawson]

Not sure how handy you are so forgive me if I've gone too far in the explanation.

To be able to lock it all together as one unit one threaded rod in each corner should do it. You drill holes in each corner of the shelf and the associated spacers. One thing to pay attention to is to keep the spacers same length per shelf else they wont end up being level. Depending on the distance between each shelf it may become a challenge to drill the hole for the rod through the spacer. You can get long drill bits or even extenders if needed. Just make the hole a little over size (so its a little larger than the rod you end up choosing) to accommodate in case its not drilled accurately. As long as the spacers are cut so the ends are parallel you shouldn't have issues. If you want to lock it all together at each shelf then you'll need to drill one end of the spacer so there is room for a nut/washer.

To decouple the rack from the floor drill a indention in the end of each rod, that goes towards the floor, then use some cones (with pointy side up into the indention you drilled in the rod, flat side on the floor).

Let me try to list the 'stacking order' of one corner, assuming you have 4 shelf's. Put a locking nut on the rod end where you drilled into the end for the 'cone', put that end on the floor. Put a washer on, then one of your spacers followed by a shelf. Then a spacer and a nut (here the nut could be a lock nut or a regular nut, your choice). Assemble all corners so you have one complete unit. Level the shelf by adjusting the nuts, then tighten etc. Put a spacer that has a larger hole in one end onto the rod, now the washer/nut is hidden, then add the next shelf and continue as before. When you get the top shelf on you can (assuming you want the rods exposed) end the assembly with a washer and a acorn nut. That type of nut will hide the end of the rod. If you need to cut the rods same length then put on a nut first, cut then back off the nut and then file the cut so you do not have damaged threads.

Tools wise you'll need a skill saw and a straight edge (could be a piece of mdf shelving), a drill with a long drill bit and maybe an extender. Some clamps to hold to a work table as you drill the legs. If you want the legs to be thicker than your 1.5" table top you can glue two pieces together, clamps come handy there as well. Some sandpaper and some clear coat or oil for finish. May want to draw it all out on paper first so you're sure you have enough wood. If you can get help from a friend then have him show you what to do so you can learn. Bring a six pack. If no help is available consider finding a wood working class at a community college or maybe post your location in case a creek'er is local to you.

That's fantastic Michael, the detail certainly is needed, I appreciate that.

Finnian

[Bill ThompsonNM]

A good source for spacers would be to look for something like 2" square turning wood. Lots of suppliers

[Steven Satur]

I feel the same. What the heck, I'll go ahead and buy that brand new deWalt router I've had my eye on, after all it's cheaper than my speaker cable!

Or interconnects that cost more then a Sawstop ICS

Steve

[Jim O'Dell]

Finnian, you don't say where you are located, but if you have a home improvement center, Home Depot, Lowes, Menard, etc around, they will have turned wooden legs for tables available. You could use those, painted or stained close to you shelving you are using as the supports between the shelves. If you still want to use all-thread, drilling the supports could be an added headache, but could be done. Again, jigs and a drill press would be your best option for this. But if you ever decided you wanted to change the distance between shelves, you would have to get new supports the right length. Same thing if you used any other method to cover the all-thread. If you want to use the wooden legs and no all-thread, you would still need to drill holes in the shelves, and shallow holes in the ends of each support and put some dowel rod in so the legs drop into place into the shelve to keep them from moving yet still be able to take it apart if need be. And there are lots of other ways to secure the supports to each self to stabilize the unit. Some are hidden, some would show. Just some random thoughts to get your design juices flowing!! Jim.

[Finnian Dawson]

Finnian, you don't say where you are located, but if you have a home improvement center, Home Depot, Lowes, Menard, etc around, they will have turned wooden legs for tables available. You could use those, painted or stained close to you shelving you are using as the supports between the shelves. If you still want to use all-thread, drilling the supports could be an added headache, but could be done. Again, jigs and a drill press would be your best option for this. But if you ever decided you wanted to change the distance between shelves, you would have to get new supports the right length. Same thing if you used any other method to cover the all-thread. If you want to use the wooden legs and no all-thread, you would still need to drill holes in the shelves, and shallow holes in the ends of each support and put some dowel rod in so the legs drop into place into the shelve to keep them from moving yet still be able to take it apart if need be. And there are lots of other ways to secure the supports to each self to stabilize the unit. Some are hidden, some would show. Just some random thoughts to get your design juices flowing!! Jim.


Thanks Jim, I'm in Ireland, but we would have similar DIY stores here that I could take a trip to for turned wooden legs such as Woodies, B&Q etc. It's great to have this forum as a resource as there are no community woodworking courses locally!

I am leaning towards using covered (by wood or metal tubing) threaded bar at the moment, due to the added stability that I think it would bring and that I will not be disassembling this. Also, I dont find threaded bar visually appealing.

So I could buy turned legs and drill through these, or possibly an easier solution - buy some copper tubing to cover the threaded bar as already suggested. How would I face the ends of the copper supports to the shelves?

I am open to any other ideas in terms of joinery, or even in terms of design, and what would look best, e.g different types/colours/material of supports etc.

Thanks again guys
Finnian

[Eric DeSilva]

Just out of curiousity, why would you eliminate the spikes?

If you just want a rack to put things on, so be it--skip the spikes, skip the threaded rod, and just dowel the feet into place. Remember, the feet are being compressed vertically--all you need to do is prevent shear forces from knocking everything over.

But the point of those spikes is to address vibration, same with the threaded rod in the Michael Green racks. But, the threaded rod only serves any purpose in that design if you are sandwiching each component between the wooden plates and tightening down. You will also find people that will advocate isolation--use of rubber or springs or something with give to prevent vibrations from one component (or the floor) from reaching other components by allowing things to move independently. As a turntable guy, I've never thought much of that theory--there's enough airborne vibration with things turned up to mess with my turntable if it is left to freely vibrate in isolation. The theory with spikes, on the other hand, is to couple objects together. Since vibration is energy, coupling the mass of an object to something really big (like the Earth) means that the small amounts of energy have to move a much greater mass, and there is less movement overall.

I'll give you an example. The first high end speakers I ever owned were ProAc Response 2s--front ported design based around a really heavy Seas or Scanspeak 6.5" driver and a 1.5" tweeter. The company's recommendation was to blu-tack them to some sand filled stands--each stand had four 3" x 3" thick wall steel supports with 1/4" steel plates on the top and bottom (bloody things cost $700 and had to be special ordered from a company in England). Since I got the speakers before the stands arrived, I just put them on the floor and fired them up... and they sounded like crap. Mind you that these guys weigh about 30 lbs each, so they aren't small. But even so, the small displacements caused by the large driver were enough to seriously distort the sound. Once the stands arrived, the speakers were unbelievably good. That's because the stands, each of which weighed about 75 lbs empty and more than that full of sand, increased the effective mass that was being displaced by the driver--in other words, the speakers didn't move any more. No more distorted sound. (Having stubbed my bare toes on those stands on more than one occasion, I can attest that they require a lot of effort to move.)

Long story short, the reason high end racks are expensive is because they try to address vibration. I can't do the Michael Green thing--besides the fact that I don't know how to use one of those things with a turntable, the aesthetics aren't what I'm looking for; they kind of remind me of some medieval torture device. I use Series 6 racks from solidsteel.it, bought back in the day when I cared more about this stuff (and had ears that were better) so I'm firmly in the spikes camp.

[Steven Satur]

I could not agree with you more. Spikes do make a difference.

Steve

[Pat Barry]

My first thought came to mind was just to glue the leg in place or even glue in place with a dowel. Then I thought maybe just the dowel, but I would want the legs to be attached to each respective top so use something called a hangar bolt to attache each leg to its respective top. Questions, of course relate to how permanent this is to be. The top of each plate could have a shallow countersunk hole for the legs to be located in. Again, you could use dowels or other devices (maybe even a pan head screw to give you some adjustability). I think the solutions are endless. Personally, I would not want to have all these shelves bolted together with the all thread idea because what I think is cool about the concept you show in the picture is that its stackable and you can change it easily.

[Finnian Dawson]

Hmmm, to spike or not to spike.

Spikes (as opposed to threaded bar)
Pros - Sonics, Easier build, modular units
Cons - More expensive, Less structurally stable unit (?), Look (subjective, may change my mind on this one!)

Think I will go with spikes. So now the questions are:

1. The best way to install each leg into it's corner of the table
2. The best way to install the spike (may be there is only one way)
3. How to accept the spike from above on the upper surface of the table underneath.

[Jim O'Dell]

Finnian, I think if you use something like the copper tubing, you would need to use nuts and washers for the actual support, at least from underneath each shelf. The only issue there, is that the tubing would not cover up the nut and washer. You might be able to find brass washers and nuts that would work, if so some brass tubing instead of copper. Copper is going to turn green after a while anyway unless you are able to seal it with something.
To everyone: I'm a little confused with the spikes. I understand the use of them under speakers to cut down on vibrations that can make surrounding items in the room resonate and thus interfere with the "music" the speakers are producing. Are you saying the vibrations also affect how the electrical components are reproducing the signals that the speakers turn into sound? I can understand that for turntables and how those should be isolated with damping materials as much as possible. But non-tube electronics? Do you build anechoic chambers to listen to music in? Can you hear anything in an anechoic chamber anyway? I'm poking some fun here. I agree with trying to get the most realistic sound you can from your audio system. (I use a set of Yamaha NS1000M speakers that were pretty expensive 34 years ago, especially to a recently married college couple.) But at what point do you reach the point of diminished return for your efforts? Is it something you can truly hear the difference with? Or just measure the difference? Just curious. Jim.

[Steven Satur]

Absolutely, spikes and cones do work. I have Polycrystal cones under my CD player, spikes on the rack at the floor, and spikes on the speakers. Believe it or not sound vibrations affect all electronic equiptment. If everything is isolated the sound is improved. There are some snake oil things out there however.
If you keep tweeking things then its not just listening to music, its like they are in front of you playing.

Steve

[Eric DeSilva]

I understand the use of them under speakers to cut down on vibrations that can make surrounding items in the room resonate and thus interfere with the "music" the speakers are producing.

It's more than that. I noted that cones in the drivers in my speakers can actually move--very slightly--the actual speaker cabinets unless they are bonded or spiked to something solid. By making 30 lb speakers into (in effect) 120 lbs speakers, you don't have the actual speaker itself vibrating. Since the goal of the cone is to displace air to create sound waves, if the cabinets are displacing the opposite direction, essentially you are damping (poorly) the wave produced--distortion. So it isn't just preventing the speaker from vibrating other things.


Are you saying the vibrations also affect how the electrical components are reproducing the signals that the speakers turn into sound? I can understand that for turntables and how those should be isolated with damping materials as much as possible. But non-tube electronics? Do you build anechoic chambers to listen to music in?

Since I actually do use tube power amps, a tubed preamp, and a tube phono step up amp, the answer is clearly yes for me. But vibration is also something that can clearly affect other things, like CD players. There are also those that maintain vibration can affect the sonics of solid state gear--or possibly that they want to isolate vibrations coming from solid state gear. There are also people that believe you need to have all your cables crossing at 90 degrees, and that Armor-all'ing your CDs improves the sound (do NOT do that, BTW). High end audio nerds are a strange community and, yes, they invest a lot in room treatments--bass traps to absorb bass frequencies in corners, acoustic absorbers to limit reflections at key points, analyzing room harmonics, building rooms to limit standing waves, LEDE rooms, the lists go on and on.


I agree with trying to get the most realistic sound you can from your audio system. (I use a set of Yamaha NS1000M speakers that were pretty expensive 34 years ago, especially to a recently married college couple.)

If you've had 'em 34 years, might want to have them rebuilt--or at least have the woofers refoamed. The rubber surrounds break down after time and with use.


But at what point do you reach the point of diminished return for your efforts? Is it something you can truly hear the difference with? Or just measure the difference? Just curious. Jim.

You reach the point of diminishing returns with the second dollar you spend. Pretend you can measure it and you can get 90% performance for each 10x you spend. So you spend $100 and have 90% perfect audio reproduction. And $1000 system is 99% true. And a $10,000 system is 99.9% perfect. There are people that are willing to spend $90,000 on that 0.01% improvement... That's where the audiophile thing starts being a bit of a disease--chasing perfection. But, at the end of the day, $90,000 has a different meaning to Bill Gates than it does to me. And someone else might spend $90,000 on a car because they are chasing a different kind of high.

One thing I noticed in my audiophile days was that you train your ears. On my stereo, I can reliably tell the difference between an MP3 variable bit rate encoded at using the hydrogen audio "alt preset extreme" settings and a native CD. Most people can't tell the difference, and on many mid-fi systems, there probably isn't a difference. But the reason I can tell them apart isn't because my ears perform better and I'm some genetically gifted listener, it's because I've spend a lot of time paying attention to small differences in audio and being able to identify those differences. I know people who are happy listening 128 kbps MP3s and that is music to them. To me, those sound horrible because they are dynamically limited and the compression kills the life of the sound. Interestingly, if I let those MP3 people listen to my stereo, and tell them what to listen for, they will invariably tell me it is richer experience. Who's better off? Hard to say. But I quit being an audiophile once I figured out that I was spending more time listening to what was wrong with things rather than just enjoying them.

[Finnian Dawson]

I started out with solid state, but then things change over time.
I never in all my years saw rubberwood. Can you post a photo? You could always use some contrasting wood like cherry. The harder the better.

Steve

Here it is Steve, unstained. Will stain it, so i guess this will make it slightly darker. What contrasting wood would you recommend for the supports? Edit that, my speakers are rosewood veneer, so would like to get supports to match the speaker veneer.

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[Greg Portland]

Just out of curiousity, why would you eliminate the spikes?

If you just want a rack to put things on, so be it--skip the spikes, skip the threaded rod, and just dowel the feet into place. Remember, the feet are being compressed vertically--all you need to do is prevent shear forces from knocking everything over.

But the point of those spikes is to address vibration, same with the threaded rod in the Michael Green racks.
First, I'd like to thank you for understanding that spikes are NOT for isolation. I see these claims all the time and it drives me nuts :-).

As for actual isolation (floating platforms, air bags, etc.) I've had practical results with cheap isolation. Certain types of music would make my CD player actually skip (due to vibration). If I stuck the player on some postal air bag packaging it would fix the problem. I could see that for vinyl or maybe reel to reel that an isolation platform could provide -some- benefit if extreme vibration is present in the room (shaking of the floor isn't shaking the record relative to the stylus, etc.). However, the tradeoff would be a loss of coupling during normal vibration levels.

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks Eric. Good information. I personally don't like MP3s. They sound hollow to me. Some of the vocal only music I'm currently listening to, that's the only way I can get it, so I live with it.
My apologies Finnian for abducting your thread. After cutting the wood to the sizes you need, will you have a strip left over? You could play with different stains and finishes to at least complement the rosewood speakers knowing that you won't likely be able to match it. Maybe a contrasting color or even stain it black. Black goes with everything!!!;) Can you order some Rosewood veneer? You could cover spacers made from wood easily enough to try to match, again if you can get the stain close. Might be worth a try. Or see if there is a rosewood peel and stick vinyl that is close and cover whatever type of pipe you want to use to cover the all-thread. Some of the speaker building supply companies might have something like that. Jim.

edit: Just looked. Partsexpress(dot)com doesn't have it in rosewood, but they do have oak, cherry, walnut and black ash peel and stick vinyl. Maybe rosewood does exist???
2nd edit: Try this place: http://www.customautotrim.com/vinyl/wood_grain_vinyl.htm#woodgrain
and this: http://www.topvinylfilms.com/products/3M_Di_NOC_Rosewood_Wood_Grain_Wrap_Vinyl-1937-0.html Maybe that will give you something to shoot for.

[Pat Barry]

I guess I didn't understand the purpose of the spikes so I did some quick reading about spikes and they have to be a gimmick, right? So what that they increase the pressure of the hi-fi component on its mounting location? This is really snake oil selling at its best.

[Pat Barry]

Here are some FAQ related to spikes. Really????

Question 1: Why use spikes ?
Answer: Spikes stop accoustic feedback. When you are playing music, floors, walls, shelves, inventory etc. start to make small movements that are transferred back to the equipment and have effects on the sound produced. By putting equipment on spikes you will have an enourmous weight on a little square area. As you know, it is much more difficult to set a heavy object into movement. The result is much better sound with a more tight bass and a clearer middle.

Question 2: What load can the spike handle ?
Answer: The spike has been tested with loads up to 400 kg on one spike. This results in a deformation in the steel part of the base plate of 0.02 mm which is about the same as nothing. The spike itself does not get any change at all at this load. This enourmous strength is achieved by making the spike itself with a ball tip in hardened steel and the crater in the base plate with a flat bottom. In this way we have got the maximum strength and minimum contact area. You can safely load the spikes with the most heavy speakers or hifi equipment.

Question 3: Why are there only three selfadhesive spikes in a package ?
Answer: Three spikes give a much more stable connection to the ground when they are not separately adjustable. It's very seldom that equipment is not steady enough with three spikes. For 98% of the Hi-Fi equipment supplied with spikes three spikes is the best. For the rest 2% they have to buy one extra package.

Question 4: How long does a superspike last ?
Answer: The superspike is made of steel in the bearing parts and much zinc. Zinc is an inhert, liquid material that stops resonances very effectively. Steel is close to being a static material but zinc will change over time. The superspikes have been through tests that simulate normal use in a ten year period. After this there have been no measurable changes to the materials. The lifetime will be at least 20 years and the spikes will make your hifi equipment sound better all this time.

Question 5: Can Soundcare Superspikes make my marriage better ?
Answer: Well, hopefully not, but there have been customers thanked us for a good product and told us that this will save his marriage. Now the speakers can be moved around without making scratches.

Question 6: Can Soundcare Superspikes make a better situation between me and my neighbour ?
Answer: Well, maybe. By use of spikes under your speakers you stop much of the vibrations in the speaker from transfering to the floor and this results in much less noise to be transferred to other rooms.

Question 7: Is Soundcare Superspikes a sexy product ?
Answer: Well, it depends upon how you look at it. But its certain that the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) is much higher than with ordinary spikes. Your equipment will look better, and even if that's not the main function its OK to get as addon.

Question 8: Do Soundcare Superspikes sound better than ordinary spikes ?
Answer: One thing for fact is that spikes sound better than any other thing you put under your HiFi equipment. Ordinary spikes and Soundcare Superspikes have basically the same function, but some customer and HiFi freaks have told us that they can hear that their equipment has become even better with Soundcare Superspikes than with ordinary spikes. There have also been tests that have given this result. This can be explained by use of much zinc that stops the resonances in the spike itself. The difference will only be mariginal.

[Eric DeSilva]

While there is plenty of snake oil in hi-fi, I'm not sure what is leading you to conclude that spikes aren't useful to couple two masses together. The physics of this can be gimmicked up, and reading the drivel written by hi-fi marketing people generally makes me want to hurl, but generally the idea of using a limited number of small contact points to ensure a solid connection isn't insane. If I put my speakers on piece of plywood, I can slide them across my floor easily--weight is distributed across a broad area. If I put them on spikes, I can't. Works for me. (They also punch through carpet to more solid surfaces nicely).

[Pat Barry]

I see the point that the speakers won't slide around, but what I fail to see is how that actually benefits audible performance and for that matter, why are your speakers sliding around? If you are saying its because you pump so much power into them that they vibrate around the room then you wold be better to turn down the volume and preserve your hearing. Lets take the speaker manufacturers - do they sell their speakers with spikes? If they did, then I would trust that the spikes are important to the speaker performance. If they don't then I would be highly inclined to believe that they know what they are doing and the spikes don't add value.

[Steven Satur]

I think this is getting to be a thread where people that don't understand or ever heard what difference it makes is hopeless.
To all the folks that doubt it, go to a high end audio store and listen, and look at evry piece of equiptment is spikes or on a isolation platform that is spiked to the floor, then go home and listen to your setup.

Steve

[Eric DeSilva]

Actually, most of the speakers I've owned over the years came with spikes, or were intended to be placed on stands with spikes. I think most, if not all, high end speaker manufacturers recommend spikes and most, if not all, high end speaker stand manufacturers equip their racks with spikes.

As to your other question about whether the effects are audible, think about what the driver inside a speaker does--the cone is thrust out, driven by an electromagnet--at a very high velocity, very many times a second. Put your hand on a speaker cabinet and you will typically feel that vibration. Now, pretend the speaker is sitting on a frictionless surface. When the cone goes out, it is generating a force because: (i) it is moving, and the center of mass of the speaker needs to stay in the same place; and (ii) it is compressing the air in front of it, and therefore meeting resistance. Those forces will cause the cabinet to move some amount backwards. Now think about the compression wave that is generated--it has been damped by the cabinet moving the opposite direction from the driver--compare that to the theoretical compression wave you would get if you could prevent the cabinet from moving at all. Now, move to a world where things are not frictionless--the same forces apply, but to a lesser degree because friction damps these effects--but to a variable degree that isn't always consistent. The fact that this happens is also unrelated to volume--the damping may be affected slightly by the degree the cabinet moves, but it can happen whether the volume is low or high. With high quality sources and high quality speakers and electronics, these things are quite audible to a discerning listener.

Reading your comment, I note that I probably do listen to my music at a volume higher than most people. The funny thing is that most people would not perceive the volume to be higher if they actually listened with me. If you have good electronics, what you find is that less distortion is created, and distortion is a lot of what people find contributes to their perception of "loudness." With a good stereo, turning up the volume to more realistic levels--as if a string quartet were actually playing in your living room--doesn't feel particularly loud. It actually sounds good--part of what audiophiles are seeking is a recreation of the live event, in fact. (That said, I do not typically try to achieve live rock concert volumes when listening to the Clash).

[Jim O'Dell]

I think this is getting to be a thread where people that don't understand or ever heard what difference it makes is hopeless.
To all the folks that doubt it, go to a high end audio store and listen, and look at evry piece of equiptment is spikes or on a isolation platform that is spiked to the floor, then go home and listen to your setup.

Steve

Now don't anyone make this more than I intend it to be. My tongue is fairly firmly planted in my cheek. And this is not at all directed at you Steve, but more with the idea. With that said....

Yeah, but they make money selling the spikes. :D I understand and totally agree with spiking speakers. I understand bass traps and absorbing sound that is bounced around the room, though usually the carpet, if the room has it, and the seating material, pictures on the wall, and people in the room will break up most of that. (Don't tell Dr. Bose I said that!) I even understand raising the subwoofer off the ground and filling that void with acoustic absorbing material to deaden it and then decouple it from the floor with spikes because of the movement it should be doing and the vibration that results because of that. I understand that we want our speakers to be heavy to help stop unwanted movement. We want the wood to be dense, thus one of the reasons for the prevalent use of MDF for speaker cabinetry. (is there an HDF? A version of MDF that is even more dense? I know there is a lighter version.) I understand that different materials vibrate at different frequencies. Heck, that's why every 5, or was it 10, feet of the shuttle was made out of a different material so it wouldn't disintegrate on launch. I agree with isolating the turntable so that vibrations don't affect the sound. Anyone who ever watched a tone arm being thrown sliding across the LP of a direct to disc 1812 Overture on the cannon shots would instantly understand that. (Took a very special turntable to even play that disc!!) What I don't understand is spikes for the electronics. If the vibrations are that destructive to the sound, then the electronics need to be in a different room that is acoustically isolated from the listening room, and everything controlled by remote. Now for the people that want to invest to the nth degree to make sure they don't lose that last 1000th of a percentage mark, that's fine. Truly it is. I don't have a problem with that. Lord knows with woodworking and dog showing as my hobbies, I throw away a lot of money for no reason other than it makes me happy. I just don't see the minimum amount of difference that it might make as being that critical for me to enjoy the music I listen to. Jim.

[Greg Portland]

I guess I didn't understand the purpose of the spikes so I did some quick reading about spikes and they have to be a gimmick, right? So what that they increase the pressure of the hi-fi component on its mounting location? This is really snake oil selling at its best.
I'm assuming that you're talking about non-mechanical components. For mechanical components there are visual and auditory reasons (tone arm bouncing, subwoofer moving across the floor, etc.). IMO, there is no need for pricey parts; you can get cheap spikes from PartsExpress that work very well.


From faq -- By putting equipment on spikes you will have an enourmous weight on a little square area. As you know, it is much more difficult to set a heavy object into movementOh boy. Physics 101 will teach you that friction is independent of surface area. HOWEVER, that is not what actually happens in the real world. There are microscopic imperfections that essentially cold-weld the two surfaces together. Thus, there can be some variation in the pulling force based on contact area. With speaker spikes, you are (slightly) poking the spike into the floor or carpet... this is greatly increasing the coefficient of friction. Some folks use spike "caps" (little metal discs) or pennies under their spikes so they do not damage their floor. Assuming the speaker & floor is wood, you are changing the coefficient of friction if you use metal or rubber feet (rubber to increase, steel to decrease). The size and shape of these feet will have a minor impact due to the microscopic imperfections in the surface. In summary:

- steel spikes will couple objects to the floor
- caps or flat feet can either couple or decouple objects from the floor depending on material composition

[Pat Barry]

I agree that you don't want your turntable vibrating and bouncing around. Anyone could make sense of that, but I would like to see real data on the benefit and not just perception..

[Steven Satur]

http://www.starsoundtechnologies.com/coulomb.html

Steve

[John M Wilson]

Not having a dog in this hunt, I have really been resisting the urge to jump in...

But this last little bit of info tipped the scales -- the article from Star Sound Technologies.

As a high school physics teacher (and former mechanical engineer), I have had to wade through a lot of pseudo-physics in my career.

The text from Star Sound Technologies is OK for the first few pages (I have a hunch it was patterned after a college physics text). It uses mathematical terms to describe "Coulomb Friction", more commonly known as Coulomb damping. In my opinion, it uses an overly-obtuse method of explaining the concept, but the concept itself can be found in many off-the-shelf college textbooks. (By the way, this concept was developed by the same Charles-Augstin de Coulomb that did great pioneering work in electricity. This principle, however, is purely mechanical).

On page 6, finally, the author puts away the college text and deviates into pure speculation (or fantasy):

"This form of resonant energy is indirectly introduced into the system and will cause interference with the signal pathway (being that of the whole) at one or more points in the audio/visual reproduction process. If not addressed, these resonance patterns will propagate forming inefficiencies thus limiting the product's function and affecting the overall sound and/or visual quality."


Isn't it odd that there are 5 pages of equations and graphs for the underlying explanation of a mechanical phenomenon first detailed in 1781, but absolutely no details on the "inefficiencies" causing actual, measurable differences in the output "sound and/or visual quality"?

Claims of increased sonic (and lately visual) fidelity can quickly fall into "Emperor's New Clothes" territory: Only people with highly refined senses can detect the difference. But we do not have to rely on diverse human senses -- Electrical and acoustic engineers have developed fantastically sensitive measuring devices which can detect infinitesimal differences in electrical signals, sound, and video.

In this document, Star Sound Technologies makes a claim, but does not back it up.

"In science, the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded." -- Marcello Truzzi



It's a free, capitalistic country, meaning folks are free to spend their money on whatever floats their boat, or makes them happy. I just wish they would say "...because I think it sounds better..." rather than trying to justify it using pseudo-science and mis-applied physics.

[Steven Satur]

Maybe not the best source, I have been out of this for awhile. But there is plenty out there.
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t65-mga-cones

Steve

[Finnian Dawson]

Not sure how handy you are so forgive me if I've gone too far in the explanation.

To be able to lock it all together as one unit one threaded rod in each corner should do it. You drill holes in each corner of the shelf and the associated spacers. One thing to pay attention to is to keep the spacers same length per shelf else they wont end up being level. Depending on the distance between each shelf it may become a challenge to drill the hole for the rod through the spacer. You can get long drill bits or even extenders if needed. Just make the hole a little over size (so its a little larger than the rod you end up choosing) to accommodate in case its not drilled accurately. As long as the spacers are cut so the ends are parallel you shouldn't have issues. If you want to lock it all together at each shelf then you'll need to drill one end of the spacer so there is room for a nut/washer.

To decouple the rack from the floor drill a indention in the end of each rod, that goes towards the floor, then use some cones (with pointy side up into the indention you drilled in the rod, flat side on the floor).

Let me try to list the 'stacking order' of one corner, assuming you have 4 shelf's. Put a locking nut on the rod end where you drilled into the end for the 'cone', put that end on the floor. Put a washer on, then one of your spacers followed by a shelf. Then a spacer and a nut (here the nut could be a lock nut or a regular nut, your choice). Assemble all corners so you have one complete unit. Level the shelf by adjusting the nuts, then tighten etc. Put a spacer that has a larger hole in one end onto the rod, now the washer/nut is hidden, then add the next shelf and continue as before. When you get the top shelf on you can (assuming you want the rods exposed) end the assembly with a washer and a acorn nut. That type of nut will hide the end of the rod. If you need to cut the rods same length then put on a nut first, cut then back off the nut and then file the cut so you do not have damaged threads.

Tools wise you'll need a skill saw and a straight edge (could be a piece of mdf shelving), a drill with a long drill bit and maybe an extender. Some clamps to hold to a work table as you drill the legs. If you want the legs to be thicker than your 1.5" table top you can glue two pieces together, clamps come handy there as well. Some sandpaper and some clear coat or oil for finish. May want to draw it all out on paper first so you're sure you have enough wood. If you can get help from a friend then have him show you what to do so you can learn. Bring a six pack. If no help is available consider finding a wood working class at a community college or maybe post your location in case a creek'er is local to you.

I have managed to get my piece cut into the 4 shelves, with the help of a local carpenter! He also helped me with some routing. I would like to the rest of my project by myself, with the advice from the great contributors here of course!

251740

Also, my carpenter told me that this was White Oak, and not rubberwood!

So, I know have 5/8" diameter allthread, and I need to buy some white oak legs - what size oak legs would you recommend I get, that would look good in between these shelves? BTW, here is a rough skechtup model, which is open to critique / design change suggestions!:

251741

Also, I think my old diy tools need changing, and I probably need to add some new tools for this project.
If you could suggest suitable drill bits, I really appreciate it. Also, I may be able to afford a second hand drill press (bench model). Are there any other tools i'll need for this project? Currently, I have a good spanner / socket set, spirit level, hammer, handsaw, hack saw, hand held screw drivers etc!! All the basics I guess!

Thanks
Finnian

[Steven Satur]

Well that was a big help. I would use 2" squares for the posts. If you can get the drill press next that will be a big help drilling the holes to keep the square to the shelf. Doing it by hand is hard. I would drill 3/4 holes in the posts and shelves for play means you are going to use the wood blocks. If you don't, getting this thing put together you risk splitting the wood. Maybe you can talk the carpenter into drilling the holes for you.
Just don't glue this up because if you ever upgrade your equiptment (which you will) you might need more height in between the shelves. If you are sure that you will keep what you have, then just dowel the pieces. It will save you alot of hassel.

Steve

[Pat Barry]

How can I say this without offending - I think the word that comes to mind is bogus. Sorry, I'm not buying it, literally or figuratively.