What is going on here? (DC wiring/switch)

[Ethan Melad]

So I have a Grizzly 2hp dust collector that was handed down to me. I finally have electric in the new shop and went to plug the DC in to make sure it worked - but found that along with the plug, there is another set of wires wired into the ON/OFF switch. Anyone know what these are for? Remote? Wall switch? can I just disconnect them? As it is now, the machine will not turn on...

Thanks

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[Chris Rosenberger]

My guess is that it may have been for a remote switch.

[Don Jarvie]

It looks like thats the on/off for the DC. The wires run from the DC through the switch then to the wall. Looks like its a magnetic starter.

[Ethan Melad]

yeah, it is a magnetic starter - but the starter has its own on/off buttons. and also has a wired plug. so i don't see why it would have to be wired into a disconnect also...or is it just for convenience to have a wall mounted switch?

[Rod Sheridan]

Make yourself a schematic of the starter wiring and you will discover what those wires do............Rod.

[Jamie Lynch]

I'd guess is it used to be wired into a remote switch. Definately follow the wiring and draw up a schematic before trying anything that'll burn the shop down:(

[Julie Moriarty]

I would first start with testing where the voltage is. Plug in the wall plug and with a voltage tester that will give you a voltage reading (not just a light) test each of the terminals in the magnetic starter and mark where you have voltage and what the voltage is. Then remove the wire nuts on the ends of the SO cord and test those.

With an insulated screwdriver (or some other non-conductive probe) operate the on-off switch inside the starter. Check the voltage just like above and see if there are any changes. Also remove the small wiring cover on the motor and test those terminals.

If there are changes, you know the starter is transferring voltage but not to the motor (or it would run). Make a note of the changes if there are any and where the voltage transfers to.

In the photo, it looks like a black wire and a green wire are coming from one of the SO cords taped together. Is the white wire just hidden or did someone cut it?

I'm also seeing new wires running through the take-all connector in the starter box and terminated to the starter block. It looks like 4 wires. Is that correct? If so that would make me think either a two-speed motor or 220v motor. The cord end is definitely 120v but someone could have changed that rather than installing a 220v receptacle. That two-wire cord taped to the uncapped SO cord could be for low voltage controls.



On the inside of the starter cover there should be a wiring schematic. If there is, take a clear picture of it and post it.
Do the same thing with the ID plate on the motor.
Move the SO cord out of the way and take a clear picture of the starter block showing how the wires are run and where they are terminated.
Also post your findings on testing the voltage.


Then we can take it from there.

[Mike Heidrick]

Do NOT plug this in until you know how it is wired. Test with continuity.

[Ethan Melad]

Thanks for the input everyone.

Heres the wiring diagram:

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The unknown cord has black white and green (the white is just tough to see in the picture). The black is wired to L1 and the white to terminal #13, green grounded.

An additional cord runs along with (taped to) the main cord - it is 2 wires and looks to just be grounded in the starter box.

My gut says that i can probably just remove this unknown cord since i believe the main line in goes to the appropriate terminals, but obviously i don't want to screw anything up.
I have relatively limited electrical knowledge, so i'm kind of inclined to just have an electrician look at whats going on since the diagram pretty much means nothing to me.

thanks again
ethan

[Ronald Blue]

I second what Mike said. You can chase the circuits out using continuity to determine each leg. Don't power it up until you know what is what. All things electrical have smoke manufactured in them. It's a key component and once you let the smoke out they no longer work. (That's a joke but true)

[Jamie Lynch]

The wiring has definately been jury rigged and should be looked at by a professional. I'm sure it made sense to whomever did the rewiring in the first place:p

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks for the input everyone.

Heres the wiring diagram:

251265

The unknown cord has black white and green (the white is just tough to see in the picture). The black is wired to L1 and the white to terminal #13, green grounded.

An additional cord runs along with (taped to) the main cord - it is 2 wires and looks to just be grounded in the starter box.

My gut says that i can probably just remove this unknown cord since i believe the main line in goes to the appropriate terminals, but obviously i don't want to screw anything up.
I have relatively limited electrical knowledge, so i'm kind of inclined to just have an electrician look at whats going on since the diagram pretty much means nothing to me.

thanks again
ethan

Hi Ethan, if you look at the control diagram, the extra wires are installed in place of Jumper "A".

This connection must be in place for the starter to work, either as a jumper or extended outside the starter to a normally closed switch.

This switch, when opened would stop the cyclone, my guess is that it was a full dust bin sensor, a fire shut down circuit etc. You could use it, or replace it with a jumper......Rod.

[Julie Moriarty]

My apologies to Mike (I replied in a PM to him that the OP had already plugged the DC in but after re-reading it I realized that's not what was said.) Sorry Mike!

When I first looked at it I thought "jury rigged". That's not a typical factory setup. But I've seen a lot of scary things that came from the factory over the years.

The male plug is 120v 15A (from what I can see in the pic.) The starter is for 3 phase or single phase and has terminals for a remote control or H-O-A switch. That's probably what the two-wire conductor taped to the SO cord was used for. My guess is in the old setup there were one or more remote switches so you could turn on the DC from several locations in the workshop.

I'd still like to see the ID plate on the motor. Look at the plate on the motor and let us know what the voltage, amperage, and/or wattage readings are. If you can take a picture and post it, better yet.

1/16/13 - After taking a better look with a well rested mind, I noticed that, in the center diagram of the "Remote Control" schematics, someone had labeled "B" for L1, "R" for terminal 3 and "W" for terminal 2. So rather than installing a simple On-Off switch or a Hand-Off-Auto controller they opted for a Stop-Start switch. Normally "B" represents the black wire, "R" the red and "W" the white.

The SO cord that has the taped cord attached to it has a black, white and green. Ethan, you said the taped cord is grounded. They may have used the green wire on the SO cord as the red but I would do a continuity test from the green wire to the case ground before assuming that. If I was tracing this out, I'd still do what I said in my first post because I want to see everything in operation but I would first make sure everything is clear before plugging it in and that means a continuity test from each prong on the plug to ground and between each open wire and plug prong. But even doing that you may not get a full understanding of what's going on here because without power, the coil in the starter won't engage.

[Ethan Melad]

thanks rod, that makes sense. if its a jumper, does that mean i should be able to close the circuit by connecting black and white?
haven't taken a picture yet, but it does have a 220v plug, not 120. if i remember, its like 10A @ 240 (20A 120V).

in any case, i've got an electrician coming to finish wiring my phase converter today (assuming the snow we got last night doesn't slow him down...) so hopefully he can take a look while he's here.

thanks again

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ethan, you have to connect the white and black wires together, and push the start button to start the cyclone.

Opening the wires will stop the cyclone.

If you don't need that feature, remove the wires and add jumper A as shown on the diagram.........Rod.

[Ethan Melad]

Julie,

I think you're right - the green is going into T4 and the extra taped 2-wire is grounded. so does this mean that i should still be able to connect black and white for an "always-on" and use the switch on the starter? what would happen to the green (red) then? or does it mean that i can remove this whole on/off connection and the starter will be back to its original state? or, will i be forced to use an additional on/off switch?

again, im asking all this for my own knowledge - ill probably have it looked at regardless.

thanks for the help.

EDIT: Just looked again, and theres a little red jumper wire sitting unused in the bottom of the box! looks like ill just easily be able to remove the extra wires and put the jumper back in per the diagram - that would be going from L1>#13, right?

[Ethan Melad]

UPDATE:
by removing the added wires and replacing the jumper, i was able to get the DC to start. unfortunately, i now see why the additional on/off switch was added - theres something funky going on with the switch buttons on the starter and they get stuck or dont always work. also the motor has a pretty nasty squeal...

guess ill go out and get a simple 3-wire on/off.
does anyone know if these motors need lubrication or anything?

ethan

[Julie Moriarty]

So rather than replacing the starter the former owner jury rigged up some new wiring scheme?

Without actually being there and seeing the thing first hand I can't tell you exactly what to do. If I had this sitting in front of me I would trace out all the wiring and draw a schematic to see how this thing was formerly working. Then I'd take the info from the motor ID plate, the wiring diagram on the starter and any other wiring information there may be and figure out what's the right way to make the thing work.

Magnetic starters are usually required only on large motors. If you have a 120V 15A motor I don't see why you need a magnetic starter. Someone may have just used it in place of a simple On-Off switch. I installed 3-way and 4-way switches all around my shop to operate the DC that's installed in the corner. They are just standard toggle switches typically used for lighting control. But I can't tell you to simply remove the magnetic starter unless I know more about the motor.

In the first picture you posted it looks like the SO cord with the plug end runs behind the "Y" fitting then into the starter housing. The wiring from the motor goes directly into the same side of the starter housing as the SO cord with the plug end. If you remove the guts from the starter housing (cuz it sounds like the buttons or coil don't work properly) and just insert a standard switch (must be rated for the motor, both voltage and amperage), you should be good to go. But it would be easier to buy a 1900 box, single switch Garvin cover and the toggle switch and bypass the starter and its housing completely. You can reuse the take-all connectors from the starter housing.

If that works, you might want to look into a remote control to operate the DC. Rockler sells this one for about $80:
http://images.rockler.com/rockler/images/43959-01-200.jpg

[Ethan Melad]

I still don't have a picture of the motor, but its a 2HP 10a 220v. it looks like new versions of this DC come with a paddle switch, and they're super cheap. I think it might be easiest to get a new basic switch and go from there. Thanks.

[Don Jarvie]

If the motor has a reset button you don't need a starter. A simple 20 amp switch will do it.

[Ethan Melad]

don, if the motor does not have a reset button do i need a starter? or would it just be safer to use a starter?