Lubrication of dovetail saws?

[ian maybury]

Hi guys. John C and others have mentioned in old threads that a hint of camelia oil or candle wax on the blade of a dovetail saw prevents binding.

I've just bought a set of the Veritas saws (14 and 20 tpi dovetail, and 16 tpi cross cut) which are very nice, and have a few questions.

This isn't per se a problem (it seems it's the quid pro quo that emerges in some woods as a result of spring back and the use of minimal set to deliver straight and clean cut surfaces?), but a quick try out in 3/4 walnut seems to show a tendency for the dovetail saws to start to bind in the cut a bit after maybe 1/2in.

1. Does the use of an oil or wax as above interfere with subsequent gluing?
2. Is there any other way around this issue?

Don't think i'm causing it - i found out many years ago about the need to grip a saw lightly and let it find it's own line, but you never know....

Thanks

ian

[John Coloccia]

I've never had a problem with wax interfering with gluing, neither on saw plates or planes. I really don't know why it's not been a problem, but as long as it stays that way I won't question it....LOL. You don't use very much at all. Just a very light amount is all it takes.

Gripping the saw lightly and letting it find it's own way is pretty much it. It's cutting straight, right?

[David Weaver]

I don't think I would use oil. Paraffin or beeswax (or probably any candle) would be fine. AT least with wax, if you ever did have a problem, you'll know it didn't penetrate.

Like John, I've never had a joint fail because of it.

[Stanley Covington]

Ian

I don't recall where, but somebody did some tests and the results were that a bit of oil did not reduce glue joint strength. While I normally agree with David, I would avoid wax because it does remain on the surface and prevent glue from entering the wood's pores. But I don't have any conclusive tests results one way or the other.

BTW, the camelia oil they are selling for $10 a bottle is mineral oil with a bit of color and sometimes some scent. Real camelia oil oxidizes and hardens. But for lubing a saw or chisel or plane, real camelia oil, fake camelia oil, or almost any oil will work. If you like lemon scent, use Olde English furniture polish. Again, mineral oil, coloring and scent.

I have tried about everything, and finally settled on Mobile 1 synthetic motor oil. I took a bamboo joint, sawed it into a cup, rolled up a clean white T shirt very tightly and stuffed it into the cup very tightly so it projects 3/8", and keep it soaked with Mobile 1. Why Mobile 1? Any synthetic 5w motor oil will work. The heavier weight seems to lube better than thinner stuff. Its cheap, comes in a handy dandy easy-pour plastic bottle, it never oxidizes, gets hard, stinks, or smells at all. Regular motor oil has that smell, you know? And it lubes like a champ. One quick swipe on each side of your sawblade will do the job.

If you don't have access to big joints of bamboo, a plastic cup will work. You don't want to use a metal container because you might knick the edge with your chisels when you jab them into it when cutting mortises. I keep my oil pot in my tool box inside a cylindrical biscuit tin.

Stan

[David Weaver]

I missed that this was just for dovetail saws. I don't recall putting anything on my dovetail saws, for cut depths like that (inch or less) the need to lubricate would indicate there isn't enough set on the saw.

Thanks for the commentary about the camelia oil, I'd wondered that, too, because it is exactly the consistency of $14 a gallon veterinary or light food grade mineral oil, which has enough uses that it seems pointless to spend $10+shipping for yellow mineral oil.

One of the most useful things I have in my shop is a tub of 50/50 mineral oil and beeswax mix. Costs about $7 or $8 to make a quart of it. So glad to not be buying bottles of yellow oil, that I'd suspect retailers don't bother with because there's nothing exclusive about a bottle of mineral oil.

[Stanley Covington]

I missed that this was just for dovetail saws. I don't recall putting anything on my dovetail saws, for cut depths like that (inch or less) the need to lubricate would indicate there isn't enough set on the saw.

Thanks for the commentary about the camelia oil, I'd wondered that, too, because it is exactly the consistency of $14 a gallon veterinary or light food grade mineral oil, which has enough uses that it seems pointless to spend $10+shipping for yellow mineral oil.

One of the most useful things I have in my shop is a tub of 50/50 mineral oil and beeswax mix. Costs about $7 or $8 to make a quart of it. So glad to not be buying bottles of yellow oil, that I'd suspect retailers don't bother with because there's nothing exclusive about a bottle of mineral oil.

Good point David. If the dovetail saw is sticking at only 1/2" in dry wood, something is probably wrong with the saw.

The camelia oil scam has been going on for a long long time. I was dissappointed when Lie-Nielson started pushing it. If you want to try some real camelia oil, they sell it for treating women's hair, a very traditional thing here in Japan. Just let me know. Not good for the long term but very pleasant stuff when its new.

Min oil/beeswax: Curious minds want to know.

Stan

[Gary Hodgin]

I use beeswax during use and a light coat of oil for storage.

[Andrew Gibson]

I have been known to use paste wax on my saws and plane soles.
Though if you are experiencing binding in such a shallow cut I would believe 1. the saw has no set, or more likely 2. your sawing needs a little work. I know when sawing after a period of not. it takes me a few cuts or more to get back into the swing of things. I find myself pushing to hard and drifting, causing the saw to bind.

I have yet to have a joint or a finish fail as a result of wax contaminating the wood... I have also used oil to protect against rust and not had an issue with it contaminating wood either.

[John Coloccia]

FWIW, I'm not a fan of "camelia" oil either.

[David Weaver]

Good point David. If the dovetail saw is sticking at only 1/2" in dry wood, something is probably wrong with the saw.

The camelia oil scam has been going on for a long long time. I was dissappointed when Lie-Nielson started pushing it. If you want to try some real camelia oil, they sell it for treating women's hair, a very traditional thing here in Japan. Just let me know. Not good for the long term but very pleasant stuff when its new.

Min oil/beeswax: Curious minds want to know.

Stan

1 pound of beeswax, 1 pound of light mineral oil. Melt both together in a double boiler (obviously high heat with mineral oil over an oven is asking for BIG trouble), mix and pour into a container to cool. Cautious people might want to do it outside, I guess, i wouldn't want to do it over an open flame in the house.

The mineral oil just makes the beeswax a whole lot easier to move around, and the whole concoction never seems to spoil.

I saw a turner advocate it as "sanding" wax to fill pores and keep dust from flying around, but it's great on saws and as a rub on coating for any shop furniture. It's also fantastic in a tin as lip balm or a general balm for cracked fingers, razorburn (not kidding, it will just about prevent razorburn if you shave too closely, and you can't see it on your skin when you rub it on thinly), just about anything. It just feels like soft beeswax (not runny or anything), and is miles cheaper to use than over the counter balms. Using it for dry skin has been just as useful or more useful than shop uses (though it does rub onto plane bodies really easily and it doesn't dry out).

I don't know what beeswax is like over there cost-wise, but there are a couple of sellers on ebay advertising pesticide free beeswax for a little over $6 a pound shipped if you get it in quantity. I think pure beeswax from woodworking suppliers is about $15-$20 for 200 grams - a bad joke.

[Prashun Patel]

I use paraffin wax. I like a harder wax for this kind of thing; less messy.

If you don't have a cheap source for paraffin, you can use most candles.

I have the Veritas 20tpi and I have not had the same binding issue.

[Zach Dillinger]

Even though a dovetail shouldn't bind in the cut, I still wax my saws. I like to make them slide through the wood as quickly as possible and this helps. Also, I use the LN thin plate saw, so I do everything I can to minimize the chance of a grab or the plate heating up a little.

[Stanley Covington]

1 pound of beeswax, 1 pound of light mineral oil. Melt both together in a double boiler (obviously high heat with mineral oil over an oven is asking for BIG trouble), mix and pour into a container to cool. Cautious people might want to do it outside, I guess, i wouldn't want to do it over an open flame in the house.

The mineral oil just makes the beeswax a whole lot easier to move around, and the whole concoction never seems to spoil.

I saw a turner advocate it as "sanding" wax to fill pores and keep dust from flying around, but it's great on saws and as a rub on coating for any shop furniture. It's also fantastic in a tin as lip balm or a general balm for cracked fingers, razorburn (not kidding, it will just about prevent razorburn if you shave too closely, and you can't see it on your skin when you rub it on thinly), just about anything. It just feels like soft beeswax (not runny or anything), and is miles cheaper to use than over the counter balms. Using it for dry skin has been just as useful or more useful than shop uses (though it does rub onto plane bodies really easily and it doesn't dry out).

I don't know what beeswax is like over there cost-wise, but there are a couple of sellers on ebay advertising pesticide free beeswax for a little over $6 a pound shipped if you get it in quantity. I think pure beeswax from woodworking suppliers is about $15-$20 for 200 grams - a bad joke.

Very cool! I will give it a try. I have a friend who wrangles bees in Utah I can have send me a few pounds of beeswax.

Stan

[John Coloccia]

Just to reiterate, in case it's not clear, heating up mineral oil is extremely dangerous...ditto for paraffin.

[David Weaver]

It is, I think george had a story about it (oil). I wouldn't do it inside over an open flame, but on an enclosed cooktop, if you are attendant and it's done in a container that is suspended in boiling water, it should be pretty uneventful. Just take it off the heat as soon as it's melted (which will be a pretty low temperature, if it starts to change color it's too hot, but it does that even at a fairly low temperature).

Obviously the and wax and oil should be *in the container* long before it's brought to any double boiler (so that there's not oil dribbling around), I did mine in an enclosed glass jar. I'll bet it could be done in a jar outside on a sunny day just by focusing a couple of mirrors on the jar or painting the outside of the jar black and laying the lid loosely on the top.

I can't overstate just how useful the combination is in the shop and for anything where you need a moisture barrier on your skin (minor dermatitis, etc). It is far better than most OTC stuff and miles better than petroleum jelly.

[Mel Fulks]

We have an especially frugal beekeeper friend who has an old appliance metal case painted black on the inside. He melts the beeswax in a pan placed inside the solar stove with a pc of glass placed over the top. I'll tell him about the additional
safety benefit ....and he will be glad to get it.

[Adam Cruea]

Regarding oils, I can tell you, don't use Harley oil to lube up anything other than a Harley.

[Jim Koepke]

A rub on each side with a piece of candle works for me.

jtk

[Mark Denovich]

I started keeping honeybees last year. I have a pound or so of wax that was left over from the honey harvest that I've been using where possible in my woodworking projects. The best thing about using beeswax is the smell.

[glenn bradley]

I'm also low tech. Tea lights are stupid cheap. I just rub a few swipes on before and sometimes during use. So much happens between the virgin cut and the final joint fitting. I've had no ill effects.

[george wilson]

My caution involving heating oil indoors was in making varnishes,where much higher temperatures are reached. However,I have SEEN kitchen fires started by using vegetable oil to fry French fries over a non flame electric stove(in my own house,but not by me!) This was not re attempted. They do it all the time in fast food places,but they have better control over the temperature,deeper pans AND large hoods!!

I will not recommend heating oil indoors. The cost can be too great.

I do not usually wax my dovetail saws,but HAVE seen plenty of saw sticking :) with what looked like nice new saws. I'm pretty sure sawing technique,and a decently set up saw make a big difference.

[Sean Hughto]

Maybe Astroglide? It's water based so might raise the grain though.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe Astroglide? It's water based so might raise the grain though.

My thinking on this may be all wrong. Most of my projects are made from western pine (fir). One of the disadvantages of soft pine is it moves a lot with changes in humidity. When cutting dovetails or other joinery, it seems the wood swells as it is opened depending on the current temperatures and humidity.

Often while cutting joinery there is no problem with a saw binding. My application of a little wax on a saw usually only happens after there is an occurrence of binding in a cut.

jtk

[Sean Hughto]

I was kidding. Should have added the ;-) In my twisted mind, the idea of lubrication and not wanting to add oils or waxes to the work led me to suggest this "personal" lubricant.

[David Barbee]

You have bigger problems than lubrication here. If your saw is binding while cutting a dovetail there is an issue. Might be and issues with the saw, severely case hardened stock, or technique. When I'm teaching how to cut dovetails I demonstrate sawing with only 2 fingers on the handle after I get the saw in the cut. This is to illistrate that I'm not guiding the saw. It saw should cut a straight line on its own. If you are binding then you either have a set issue or you may have an issue with your technique. If your saw blade tends to track to the left or right then you have to much set on one side of the saw. A little wax won't solve the issue.

[David Weaver]

I was kidding. Should have added the ;-)

Yeah, it was definitely an open door.

[Curt Putnam]

For lube and rust prevention - consider mutton tallow. Available at LV

I have 2 of the 14 TPI Veritas saws and neither has bound in 3/4" or 7/8" maple, oak, poplar or African Mahogany.

Thanks, Curt

[Charlie Stanford]

You have bigger problems than lubrication here. If your saw is binding while cutting a dovetail there is an issue. Might be and issues with the saw, severely case hardened stock, or technique. When I'm teaching how to cut dovetails I demonstrate sawing with only 2 fingers on the handle after I get the saw in the cut. This is to illistrate that I'm not guiding the saw. It saw should cut a straight line on its own. If you are binding then you either have a set issue or you may have an issue with your technique. If your saw blade tends to track to the left or right then you have to much set on one side of the saw. A little wax won't solve the issue.

Mr. Barbee is right. If a bloody dovetail saw is jamming a half inch into the cut something is wrong with the saw or disastrously wrong with technique. Could be narrow kerf gone wild - too narrow - maybe hardly any set on one side.

Uber-narrow kerfs are not needed when sawing dovetails. Your best dovetail saw might just be your 10" -- 12" crosscut filed tenon saw if you aren't scared of it.

[Zach Dillinger]

Mr. Barbee is right. If a bloody dovetail saw is jamming a half inch into the cut something is wrong with the saw or disastrously wrong with technique. Could be narrow kerf gone wild - too narrow - maybe hardly any set on one side.

Uber-narrow kerfs are not needed when sawing dovetails. Your best dovetail saw might just be your 10" -- 12" crosscut filed tenon saw if you aren't scared of it.

Wait, you mean I'm not supposed bear down on my saw, swing my arm back and forth willy-nilly as fast as I can and twist my wrist to keep the saw on the line.... wow, I've been doing it sooooo wrong. :)

I thought jamming the saw was a sign of good craftsmanship... right George?

[ian maybury]

Thanks for all the info John, guys. To be fair to the saw the test piece of walnut was a rather fat 3/4in with the 14tpi saw, and looking at it again i was more like an inch deep into it. The cut seemed to start out OK, but to tighten gradually.

Trying both candle wax and so called 'camelia oil' it's amazing the difference just the tiniest hint of either made to how the saws cut - they just glided. I have a set of Japanese saws too with fragile blades which i'd been avoiding using until i had a chance to practice since they are easily broken variety, but it works very well on them too.

Even after wiping the saws with cellulose thinners there seems to be enough of a trace of lubrication left behind to make a definite difference. Given that lubrication eases the situation so much there must be scope for a saw maker to experiment with a permanent low friction coating and an optimised surface finish. It seems like a coarse ground (?)/high friction surface might not be a good idea, and also that since right now makers may have to tread a fine line between enough set to prevent binding/deliver free cutting, and not so much that the tendency is to wander/produce rough surfaces that anything that reduces the binding risk might be useful.

Maybe something like the Trend dry PTFE spray would work too - i didn't have some to test.

Testing tonight the rip saws are not quite as free cutting as the cross cut 16 tpi saw (used cross cut), but they are still perfectly fine on white oak, a reddish coloured and rather soft tropical 'hardwood' (it cut very freely) and a bit of pitch pine. The walnut is definitely a bit harder to handle - it's sawing OK now (whether it was me and/or the lube and/or something else - like maybe local tension in the wood), but it's definitely a bit tougher/draggier than the oak.

The saws are certainly cutting straight, so i think it's for me to practice for while..

One matter I'm going to have to make a call on is that the smallish handle (and my very large hand) is forcing me to grip the Veritas with my wrist tilted back more and higher relative to the line of the teeth than has been been the case with the dozuki i've used occasionally for years - it feels a little odd. The Veritas is probably that way for a reason, as the higher grip (by applying a little more downward pressure on the blade) does seem to damp any slight tendency for the teeth to 'bounce' in the cut in the first stroke or two.

Practice.....

ian

[John Coloccia]

Funny...I settled on the Veritas because it felt to me like the roomiest handle out there. Cosman's saw might be a touch bigger, but I never tried it. The LN felt positively cramped, and I don't have large hands, but I'm a musician and they're pretty flexible so maybe I just didn't like them being crowded together.

[Jim Neeley]

I would like to offer up, for the consideration of all, that the amount of set required on a saw is at least partly dependent upon how "green" it is, or isn't in that you can usually get away with very little set on stable kiln-dried wood where greener stuff will bind it up.

My dovetail saw has a small (couple thou, if that) on each side and I have no problem in the kiln-dried hardwoods I use yet I'd never use it in fresh non-kilned dried "construction lumber", even if it'd been ripped thin... DAMHIK!! :-)

YMMV..

[ian maybury]

The hand size issue John seems to be mostly because my tendency is to hold the saw a little lower down the handle. There's more room than that, but to avail of it requires tipping my wrist back more than i've been used to, and gripping the handle a little higher up. i.e. its basically a personal thing. It's possible to persevere with the lower grip (which more closely mimics the grip on the dozuki), but it'd require re-shaping the handles a little.

My experience with a 'proper' dovetail saw is minimal Jim, but for sure the different pieces of wood behave quite differently. The walnut is probably a little wet (around 17%), as it had been in the local shop that gave it to me as a sample for years and would have well and truly acclimatised...

ian

[Jim Matthews]

Yeah, it was definitely an open door.

I don't think it's an open door, you probably have to spring for dinner and a movie first.

[Jim Matthews]

I think you may have put your finger on the problem - your attack angle.

The saw should travel in as near a straight line from your elbow, relaxed at your side, as possible.
If the saw is binding, you may be applying more force that is necessary.

That puts my cutting height around 40" off the floor. Higher, and I wander off-line, lower and I bear down too much which leaves a rough cut.

When I get my backsaws properly sharpened, there are no marks on the cut face that show the stroke count.
Each progressive pass shears off the ridge left by the last stroke.

I aim for no more than the weight of my hand holding the saw to be riding on the kerf.
It's more a "whisking" sound than the sound of each tooth engaging (like an old synchro-mesh transmission).

I'm looking for the saw to track straight, and if I apply pressure it always cuts toward me.

[Jim Koepke]

I was kidding. Should have added the ;-) In my twisted mind, the idea of lubrication and not wanting to add oils or waxes to the work led me to suggest this "personal" lubricant.

I was not aware of the product's purpose before a few minutes ago.

jtk

[ian maybury]

;) I'm staying out of the 'personal' discussion. Next it'll be that it needs scented oil.....

Think the straight line from the elbow is pretty good Jim, but will have another play tomorrow.

One step forward since the last anyway - resting the saw even more lightly than the usual on the work (actually taking some of its weight) seems to be one way of avoiding it rattling in the cut for the first few strokes..

ian

[Charlie Stanford]

Thanks for all the info John, guys. To be fair to the saw the test piece of walnut was a rather fat 3/4in with the 14tpi saw, and looking at it again i was more like an inch deep into it. The cut seemed to start out OK, but to tighten gradually.

Trying both candle wax and so called 'camelia oil' it's amazing the difference just the tiniest hint of either made to how the saws cut - they just glided. I have a set of Japanese saws too with fragile blades which i'd been avoiding using until i had a chance to practice since they are easily broken variety, but it works very well on them too.

Even after wiping the saws with cellulose thinners there seems to be enough of a trace of lubrication left behind to make a definite difference. Given that lubrication eases the situation so much there must be scope for a saw maker to experiment with a permanent low friction coating and an optimised surface finish. It seems like a coarse ground (?)/high friction surface might not be a good idea, and also that since right now makers may have to tread a fine line between enough set to prevent binding/deliver free cutting, and not so much that the tendency is to wander/produce rough surfaces that anything that reduces the binding risk might be useful.

Maybe something like the Trend dry PTFE spray would work too - i didn't have some to test.

Testing tonight the rip saws are not quite as free cutting as the cross cut 16 tpi saw (used cross cut), but they are still perfectly fine on white oak, a reddish coloured and rather soft tropical 'hardwood' (it cut very freely) and a bit of pitch pine. The walnut is definitely a bit harder to handle - it's sawing OK now (whether it was me and/or the lube and/or something else - like maybe local tension in the wood), but it's definitely a bit tougher/draggier than the oak.

The saws are certainly cutting straight, so i think it's for me to practice for while..

One matter I'm going to have to make a call on is that the smallish handle (and my very large hand) is forcing me to grip the Veritas with my wrist tilted back more and higher relative to the line of the teeth than has been been the case with the dozuki i've used occasionally for years - it feels a little odd. The Veritas is probably that way for a reason, as the higher grip (by applying a little more downward pressure on the blade) does seem to damp any slight tendency for the teeth to 'bounce' in the cut in the first stroke or two.

Practice.....

ian

Ian, none of your joinery saws should need lubrication of any sort at any time. Joinery saws are called on to produce the surface that is to be glued - tenons fitting straight off the saw, dovetails, etc. Do not lube these saws for this reason, even with hard wax.

[george wilson]

I have never found it necessary to lubricate a saw. just keep the saw sharp and properly set.

[Tony Wilkins]

Wish I'd seen this thread earlier, my first bottle of camelia oil arrived today. Got it mostly for rust prevention. Next time mutton tallow I guess.

[Dan Roman]

Hello Ian (and everyone else here, this may be my first post here). I had the same problem with the Veritas 14 tpi dovetail saw so I sent it back. It bound in the kerf and I didn't think I should have to mess with a brand new $65 saw. This was to replace the saw I've been using for about seven years, a $15 crown gents saw I bought at Woodcraft. I tapped some of the set out of that saw and sharpened it like a proper rip saw. It cut beautifully... until it dulled after a few projects. I sharpened it again and it cut nicely. Eventually, the set wore down both from use and sharpening it, it started to bind as a poorly-set saw will do. More recently, I ordered a regular Lie Nielsen dovetail saw. It was sharp and nicely set right out of the box. After a few projects, however, it too is beginning to bind a bit. This is normal. Saws need some maintenance to cut properly. Anyway, this has been my experience, good luck to you.

[george wilson]

Zach: you are really out of line to disparage the experts.:)

[Zach Dillinger]

Zach: you are really out of line to disparage the experts.:)Yup, and I feel just awful about it... :)

[Stanley Covington]

Ian, none of your joinery saws should need lubrication of any sort at any time. Joinery saws are called on to produce the surface that is to be glued - tenons fitting straight off the saw, dovetails, etc. Do not lube these saws for this reason, even with hard wax.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Charlie, with the exception of deep cuts in resinous woods like sugar pine, ponderosa pine, keruing, or other resinous tropical hardwoods. The oil helps keep the blade on track. But those are not, of course, made with a dovetail saw, but with a back saw, handsaw, or other variety of larger saw.

Although I use Mobile 1 nowadays, I was taught to use vegetable oil, including camelia oil (the real thing not the phony stuff they sell as tool and sword oil), as a saw and chisel lube. I assume natural oil affects glue bond less than mineral oil, but I don't know. I have put drops of glue on wood touched lightly with oil and the bond seems quite strong.

I would never use wax though. As you know, wax is used as a mold release specifically because glues and paints and polyesters, etc. will not stick to it. I am in the habit of waxing the edges and perimeter tongues of panels to be glued into frame in panel and frame construction to prevent glue from locking the panel in place and perhaps inducing shrinkage cracks. I'm especially glad I waxed the 12 floating panels on the tool chest I built in Guam earlier this year in 85% humidity of my nonairconditioned workshop because the panels have shrunk greatly since coming to the cold/warm/dry indoor environment here in Tokyo, and if they had become inadvertently glued into their grooves they would have split by now. So I am very confident that wax will prevent glue from bonding.

I know guys who use "personal lubricants" of the sort Sean mentioned to oil their M16's/M4's/AR's. Even Vagisil is said to be popular among some professional shooters. I kid you not. Nothing wrong with a bit of experimentation; your saw won't get an STD! :D

[Stanley Covington]

Wish I'd seen this thread earlier, my first bottle of camelia oil arrived today. Got it mostly for rust prevention. Next time mutton tallow I guess.

Tony:

Don't feel bad. The mineral oil marketed as camelia oil for tools nowadays works fine as either a lubricant or rust preventative. There are better products, I believe, but nothing wrong with mineral oil for short term corrosion protection. If they are using the food grade mineral oil, it is entirely non-toxic, which is a big plus, IMO. Safer, no doubt, than the motor oil I use as a lubricant. And the mineral oil won't go bad or get gummy or oxidize like real camelia oil. Besides, your saw and chisel don't need "emollients, antioxidants, or fatty acids, or Omega 3's" does it? On the other hand, a dovetail saw with dry skin could be irritable....

An interesting quote from Wikipedia: "Camellia oil is also used as rust protection for swords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_sword) and woodworking hand tools, such as axes.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_seed_oil#cite_note-2) Owing to the cost of genuine camellia oil, many oils sold for this purpose are actually fish oils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_oil), with an added scent."

But I know from experience that professionals that deal with swords in Japan do not treat their valuable swords with real camelia oil.

[ian maybury]

There's no arguing but that oils and waxes by their nature tend inhibit bonding (actually the wetting by the glue that's needed to achieve a bond), but since they are fairly widely used it seems like the effects are not instantly catastrophic. The heavy use of wax in some of the hand plane videos is pretty scary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awLNuslxud0 - it seems incredible that it doesn't pop up later to cause gluing or finishing problems.

This piece by Chris Schwartz seems pretty definitive though - while fairly ad hoc it suggests no problem with finishes applied directly over the waxes etc he tested: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/doesnt-that-interfere-with-finishing

It seems that even microscopic amounts of lubricant help sawing, so maybe it doesn't need to be overdone/can be polished off. That said the use of liberal amounts of tallow (not exactly an adhesion promoter either) has a long history in woodworking too.

Whether or not all glue types respond in the same may be another matter..

Having like many had some experience of how badly even a molecule or two of a silicone floating on the breeze can screw up a paint finish that is one lubricant i'd be very cautious of. Even in trace amounts. It's common in most household and automotive polishes - my inclination is to steer clear unless a product is specifically labelled as being silicone free. (a) its use on a saw is probably looking for trouble, and (b) it's probably safer to never let the stuff inside a workshop.

:) Starting to think after doing a lot of digging as well as reading here that while there are basics (like a properly set up saw, properly located and held work, light grip, no forcing etc) that:

(1) 'Running in' may be a factor on these saws.
(2) There's not much consensus on the fine detail of dovetail saws/sawing/that it's quite a lot to do with preferences, specifics (e.g. saw, wood type) and heaven knows what else.
(3) It's a case of doing the work to get to a comfortable modus operandi in your own situation - that there's aspects of the task that are down to developing a 'touch'.

Thanks again for all the input, its's been great to get a feeling for the issues in play....

ian

[Charlie Stanford]

:) Starting to think after doing a lot of digging as well as reading here that while there are basics (like a properly set up saw, properly located and held work, light grip, no forcing etc) that:

(1) 'Running in' may be a factor on these saws.
(2) There's not much consensus on the fine detail of dovetail saws/sawing/that it's quite a lot to do with preferences, specifics (e.g. saw, wood type) and heaven knows what else.
(3) It's a case of doing the work to get to a comfortable modus operandi in your own situation - that there's aspects of the task that are down to developing a 'touch'.

Thanks again for all the input, its's been great to get a feeling for the issues in play....

ian

Let somebody else try the saw. If it doesn't jam then it's probably your technique. If it jams for another user, somebody reasonably skilled, then it probably needs a sharpening and resetting.

In the meantime, and for wood at half inch or thicker you ought to just try a 10" tenon saw, filed crosscut, and maybe a touch 'dull' too. The purists will surely see this as blasphemy. I bet you'll love it. Forget what the tool catalogs tell you that you must have. They want you to sell you tools.

[ian maybury]

That's good advice Charley, although i know of nobody local.

That said i'm pretty certain judging by the rate that the cutting improved last night that the saws are fine. They certainly cut straight, and the binding was only coming on progressively towards the bottom of a deep cut. Also that they necessarily sail close to the wind by running minimal set which (by the testing done already) makes them more sensitive to wood type, condition and dimensions than i'd previously realised too.

I will need a tenon saw fairly soon anyway, so i'll probably take you up on that. I've only done a little saw sharpening over the years, but it's a skill set that should free a person from needing to worry too much about which saw they buy as long as it's comfortable, well made and from a decent bit of steel.

One 'truth' that seems pretty clear is that viewed objectively (and setting advertising aside/as in much about quality woodworking tools) there's people posting in various places of being happy with examples of any of the 'respectable' dovetail saws....

ian

[lowell holmes]

Frank Klausz sets fine saw teeth with a screwdriver. You insert the small screwdriver between every other teeth and twist, setting both teeth at once. He shows this in his video about hand tools.

Be gentle and you get a uniform set. The procedure is easy. The results will often take a saw from binding to aggressive performance.

You will nit damage the saw if careful.

[Charlie Stanford]

That's good advice Charley, although i know of nobody local.

That said i'm pretty certain judging by the rate that the cutting improved last night that the saws are fine. They certainly cut straight, and the binding was only coming on progressively towards the bottom of a deep cut. Also that they necessarily sail close to the wind by running minimal set which (by the testing done already) makes them more sensitive to wood type, condition and dimensions than i'd previously realised too.

I will need a tenon saw fairly soon anyway, so i'll probably take you up on that. I've only done a little saw sharpening over the years, but it's a skill set that should free a person from needing to worry too much about which saw they buy as long as it's comfortable, well made and from a decent bit of steel.

One 'truth' that seems pretty clear is that viewed objectively (and setting advertising aside/as in much about quality woodworking tools) there's people posting in various places of being happy with examples of any of the 'respectable' dovetail saws....

ian

Backed saws should be viewed on a continuum, not as having discrete functionality by some certain name, this is the actual tradition.

The thinner the material, the smaller the saw used. A "tenon" saw (I need to remember to always put it in quotation marks) will cut dovetails. A "dovetail" saw will also cut tenons on small workpieces. Crosscut is universal - you can rip with any crosscut saw, large, medium, or small. It's up to you whether or not to duplicate all of your joinery saws in both crosscut and rip patterns. Tool manufacturers and their well-heeled patrons (secret shills receiving free tools?) will encourage you to do so. It is by no means necessary. IMO, it's a waste of money. Crosscut saws start more easily and the notion that they won't track a line on a rip joinery cut, of any kind, is frankly preposterous. A rip saw, of any size, also has more tendency to push material out the exit side of the cut, to the detriment of cosmetics, since the material can pile up in front of the chisel shaped teeth rather than be sliced to dust by crosscut teeth. All this said, owning some rip filed joinery saws is a valid option though, again, not an absolute necessity.

Cutting dovetails in thick, hard material (3/4"++) with a very thin plate, narrow kerf, relatively short, fine toothed saw is valid example of torture. You can put yourself through this all in the name of properness or whatever but know this - it's likely a misunderstanding of history. It is for certain a mismatch of tool to task.

People may trot out scans of old tool catalogs as 'proof' of what was de rigueur in a busy woodworking shop of the period. That was about as valid then as such a silly exercise would be now. Don't buy into this absurdity. The competition back then would take one's breath away. The L-N/LV little battles back and forth now would make those old guys laugh. Tool catalogs don't prove much at all. They are as full of sales puffery as those of today though I'll grant it's hard to imagine given some of the ad copy I've read recently.

[george wilson]

As a professional woodworker for many decades,I have never seen it necessary to lubricate a saw blade. I must be doing something wrong!!

[John Coloccia]

I don't think anyone ever said it's necessary. It's not necessary to lube a jointer/planer/tablesaw bed either. It just makes everything work more easily. A little wax right on the teeth just reduces the effort a bit. Have you ever tried a little paraffin just right on the teeth, George? I don't do it all the time, but when I do it's like magic.

Charlie, I have the same exact saws the Ian does and I have no problems whatsoever cutting through whatever I care to cut through. I also don't understand the suggestion to rip with a crosscut saw. Why would you want to do that? Without shearing away the fibers, the saw plate just gets jammed up against uncut fibers and it makes the whole experience so much more difficult than it needs to be. This is just simple physics, and anyone can go into the shop and test for themselves how much better a rip saw rips. I wouldn't put too much stock in what "craftsman" of days gone by used to do. Ever walk through an antique store? By and large, the tools where abused by hacks....even the tools boxes are falling apart, obviously assembled by a hack, with nails holding the bottoms on and other nonsense. The vast majority of the furniture is GARBAGE, and this is the stuff that survived. Most of it fell apart ages ago on it's own, with no help required from Ikea at all.

Just because you use hand tools doesn't mean it's time to stop learning.

[David Weaver]

I don't do it all the time, but when I do it's like magic.


It's kind of nice to do once the saw's already a little warm - it just zips right on with no fuss, especially if you just have cut to finish on a rip saw that's providing a little more resistance than you want.

[John Coloccia]

It's kind of nice to do once the saw's already a little warm - it just zips right on with no fuss, especially if you just have cut to finish on a rip saw that's providing a little more resistance than you want.

What I do most now is after the cut, I grip the teeth lightly with my fingers and pull forward, removing any sawdust that's packed in there, but also (I think) maybe putting a little bit of oil on the teeth from my skin. That seems to work nearly as well as a touch of wax.

[george wilson]

I have rubbed dry paraffin on a plane bottom,but not on saws. Of course,I was not a furniture maker,doing a lot of sawing through thick stock.

I,for 1,would never rub greasy stuff like tallow on my saw or plane,though there's evidence it was done. Done by whom,though? uneducated work a day workmen,or also at the higher levels of workmanship?

I really do not want to leave any sticky wax,oils,or whatever on the finished surfaces of my work,to be rewarded with cratering when I apply the finish,or poor adhesion of that finish even if cratering is avoided. Yet,it does depend upon the TYPE of finish being applied. Oils or oil base finishes will go over contaminated surfaces more readily than water(milk paint),alcohol based,or lacquer based finishes. The answer becomes complicated.

I never spray silicone based stuff on my machine tables,for sure!

By the time I carved,scraped,or sanded the surfaces,the paraffin,being quite "dry" by nature,was gone. Some of these other products might not be so easily eliminated.

On the contrary, John,it seems to have been the better furniture that seems mostly to have survived. Lesser was delegated to the kid's rooms,servant's quarters,etc.,because it wasn't valuable or fashionable enough to take better care of.

Later,in the machine age,things changed. I take it you were not referring to 18th.C. junk furniture surviving?

[John Coloccia]

I have rubbed dry paraffin on a plane bottom,but not on saws. Of course,I was not a furniture maker,doing a lot of sawing through thick stock.

I,for 1,would never rub greasy stuff like tallow on my saw or plane,though there's evidence it was done. Done by whom,though? uneducated work a day workmen,or also at the higher levels of workmanship?

I really do not want to leave any sticky wax,oils,or whatever on the finished surfaces of my work,to be rewarded with cratering when I apply the finish,or poor adhesion of that finish even if cratering is avoided. Yet,it does depend upon the TYPE of finish being applied. Oils or oil base finishes will go over contaminated surfaces more readily than water(milk paint),alcohol based,or lacquer based finishes. The answer becomes complicated.

I never spray silicone based stuff on my machine tables,for sure!

By the time I carved,scraped,or sanded the surfaces,the paraffin,being quite "dry" by nature,was gone. Some of these other products might not be so easily eliminated.

On the contrary, John,it seems to have been the better furniture that seems mostly to have survived. Lesser was delegated to the kid's rooms,servant's quarters,etc.,because it wasn't valuable or fashionable enough to take better care of.

Later,in the machine age,things changed. I take it you were not referring to 18th.C. junk furniture surviving?

I was referring to 18th, 19th and early 20th century furniture surviving. There are so few example of anything left that haven't completely fallen apart, and much of what's left was poorly made to begin with and survived by accident....probably forgotten in an attic or unused in a guest bedroom and it comes out for the estate sale. There are nice examples that are extremely well made and have held up well, but it seems like most of it was as disposable as much of the cheap furniture we're making today that so many of us dislike. That was my only point. Then, like now, it probably doesn't make sense to look at what 90% of the people are doing. It makes sense to look at what the craftsman whos work we wish to emulate were doing.

Re: silicone
It's not even allowed in the house. I now use a gun oil from Lucas for my firearms because it's one of the few I can find that works well and DOESN'T have silicone or teflon in it.

[george wilson]

I agree completely. Junk is not worth emulating!!!:) Except for my aberration with Gretsch guitars,which were either junk or decent instruments,with not much in between. I'm a Chet fan,what can I do?:) It's likely they didn't send him guitars with tops glued on 1/2"off center! I have one like that!!

[Charlie Stanford]

I don't think anyone ever said it's necessary. It's not necessary to lube a jointer/planer/tablesaw bed either. It just makes everything work more easily. A little wax right on the teeth just reduces the effort a bit. Have you ever tried a little paraffin just right on the teeth, George? I don't do it all the time, but when I do it's like magic.

Charlie, I have the same exact saws the Ian does and I have no problems whatsoever cutting through whatever I care to cut through. I also don't understand the suggestion to rip with a crosscut saw. Why would you want to do that? Without shearing away the fibers, the saw plate just gets jammed up against uncut fibers and it makes the whole experience so much more difficult than it needs to be. This is just simple physics, and anyone can go into the shop and test for themselves how much better a rip saw rips. I wouldn't put too much stock in what "craftsman" of days gone by used to do. Ever walk through an antique store? By and large, the tools where abused by hacks....even the tools boxes are falling apart, obviously assembled by a hack, with nails holding the bottoms on and other nonsense. The vast majority of the furniture is GARBAGE, and this is the stuff that survived. Most of it fell apart ages ago on it's own, with no help required from Ikea at all.

Just because you use hand tools doesn't mean it's time to stop learning.

1. Crosscut saws start easier (said it in my post). Crosscut saws can rip. Turnabout not necessarily so. I still presented rip saws as a valid option.

2. I don't equate the average corner 'antique' store with, well, anything. I'm surprised that you're surprised you found junk in a junk store. Nor would I draw any sort of conclusion, inference, or anything else from what might be found in one at any given moment.

3. Continuing to learn and continuing to buy are two completely different things. You sure you aren't confusing the two?

[John Coloccia]

1. Crosscut saws start easier (said it in my post). Crosscut saws can rip. Turnabout not necessarily so. I still presented rip saws as a valid option.

2. I don't equate the average corner 'antique' store with, well, anything. I'm surprised that you're surprised you found junk in a junk store. Nor would I draw any sort of conclusion, inference, or anything else from what might be found in one at any given moment.

3. Continuing to learn and continuing to buy are two completely different things. You sure you aren't confusing the two?

I've been selling off all of my tools, not buying. I'm not a tool hoarder. I don't even enjoy buying tools anymore. I do this full time and the last thing I need is a shop full of tools that either don't work or are redundant.

[Charlie Stanford]

I've been selling off all of my tools, not buying. I'm not a tool hoarder. I don't even enjoy buying tools anymore. I do this full time and the last thing I need is a shop full of tools that either don't work or are redundant.

Hard to argue with success!!

[Curt Putnam]

Ian, I would encourage you to listen to the saw as it cuts. When a saw is running properly, it makes a sweet, easy, "saw" sound. When something is not right the saw will to groan, grunch, gronk, crank and in general sound wrong. Grab a board and start a cut and just let the saw run where it will, as easy as you can. Once you have the good sound down, you will instantly hear from the saw when you are starting to screw up. Learned that from Kevin Glen-Drake at an LN hand tool event.

[John Coloccia]

Hard to argue with success!!

Yeah, you know I was a sharpening junkie. I had every method of sharpening known to man, and I'm pretty sure some known only to aliens and devils. The thing is, when you find what works for you, it's easy to say so but I had to try a lot of things for myself to get it. Things were different when we had proper apprenticeships. You learned what the master taught and that was that. Now, you can practice something the WRONG way for 10 years and never get it right. We're in the golden age of hand tools, for sure, and maybe even the golden age of woodworking....so much new work today is mind blowing. Have you seen the "Old Money" thread? That's incredible work. On the other hand, so many are in the dark because there's a huge gulf between reading about it on the internet and actually seeing it done in person. Oen session in person is probably worth a year of reading.

[Charlie Stanford]

Yeah, you know I was a sharpening junkie. I had every method of sharpening known to man, and I'm pretty sure some known only to aliens and devils. The thing is, when you find what works for you, it's easy to say so but I had to try a lot of things for myself to get it. Things were different when we had proper apprenticeships. You learned what the master taught and that was that. Now, you can practice something the WRONG way for 10 years and never get it right. We're in the golden age of hand tools, for sure, and maybe even the golden age of woodworking....so much new work today is mind blowing. Have you seen the "Old Money" thread? That's incredible work. On the other hand, so many are in the dark because there's a huge gulf between reading about it on the internet and actually seeing it done in person. Oen session in person is probably worth a year of reading.

I'll check that thread out... thanks.

[ian maybury]

Must say i think the devil in a lot of this stuff is the way mystique creeps in - about people, traditions and tools. There's stuff that works, and stuff that doesn't - and it helps a lot if we can draw on advice to avoid always having to learn the hard way - but in the end (having done your homework as carefully as you can) there's not much alternative to getting stuck in on a hands on basis to drive it down to experience and realities to truly find out.

In the case of saws that probably means being clear about what you need to achieve right now, buying a saw that's a decent platform to go forward with, and after that working on both sharpening and technique to evolve a solution that works for you...

This isn't taking a tilt and is wholly general, but +1 on some of the points already made in the same vein - there's such a fine line between passing on sound information, and passing on untested hearsay. That's long before it gets to bias and the like.

On Charlie's point about continuum. That really is the point isn't it? They get designated as dovetail saws or whatever, but in the end it grinds down to being about capability vs. needs. Lee Valley just mark their saws as rip or crosscut of whatever TPI. Beyond that what works works.

You mention not liking PTFE John. Have you had problems with it? It has struck me that a dry aerosol PTFE lube like that sold by e.g. Trend for cutting tools and the like might be worth trying on saws...

ian

[David Weaver]

I'll check that thread out... thanks.

Oh my...... I can't believe nobody has directed you to that yet.

[John Coloccia]

You mention not liking PTFE John. Have you had problems with it? It has struck me that a dry aerosol PTFE lube like that sold by e.g. Trend for cutting tools and the like might be worth trying on saws...

ian

I don't have anything against PTFE, per se. My only problem with it is that normal solvents don't dissolve it, so there's no practical way to clean it up. Like silicone, you can smear it around but it's very difficult to actually get rid of. I'm not even sure that teflon causes any adhesion problems, but woodworking is hard enough that I'd rather just avoid it. That said, I use Bostick TopCote on my cast iron surfaces (jointer, bandsaw, etc) and it works great....and I read somewhere that it contains PTFE but I don't know that for a fact. I do know they claim it doesn't interfere with finishes, and that I will attest to. Until I read somewhere that PTFE causes zero problems (and I can't seem to find any authoritative information about this one way or another), I'll continue to avoid it.

If someone knows for sure, that would be great information to have. Sheldon, are you out there? :D

[George Gyulatyan]

Regarding oils, I can tell you, don't use Harley oil to lube up anything other than a Harley.
Unless you want your tools to start leaking as well :p

[Charlie Stanford]

Unless you want your tools to start leaking as well :p

Funny,,, thanks for the laugh. And they'd get loud too....

[ian maybury]

The 'Old Money' thread John. New to me too. Incredible!

Not just in terms of the technical skills, but in the way each piece assumes the character and '-isness' of what it's supposed to be. The pieces are not just realistic looking, they in some way are 'super real' - like they trigger a seeing that goes to a deeper level than what we ourselves can manage, or at least normally pay enough attention to connect with....

ian