I may be over thinking this

[Jay Jolliffe]

I have to start making & installing some cabinets in a house that's 110yrs old. I took out the existing cabinets that were made in place. They weren't made to have a toe kick. The ones I'm making will. I install my cabinets on wood bases that gives me the height of the kick. The wall they're going to be on is 18' long with a stove in between some of the cabinets. Here's the problem..From one end to the other the floor is out almost 2". So that means when I install the bases level I will have a toe kick height of 3 3/4'' on one end & 1 3/4" on the other keeping everything level. So what I have to do is install the bases to the floor which isn't level, make all the cabinets to fit the place it goes with one side longer than the other so the tops are all in the line. The good thing about this is there is no drawers at the top that would show the difference. So now what I'd like to know is there any easy way to figure this out. I have made plenty of cabinets but not on a floor so far out....Also it is not an option to jack the floor up which would mean the house...

[Dave Richards]

If the top of the base is level, doesn't that eliminate any need to make the cabinet sides different? I thought that was one of the advantages of putting down a separate base.

[Jay Jolliffe]

Dave...The top of the base can't be level. If it is I will have a toe kick of 3 3/4" to 1 3/4" from one end to the other....so basically the cabinets can't be put in level if I want a even toe kick...

[Carl Beckett]

Dave...The top of the base can't be level. If it is I will have a toe kick of 3 3/4" to 1 3/4" from one end to the other....so basically the cabinets can't be put in level if I want a even toe kick...


Are you planning on keeping the drawers and doors level, or letting them tilt to accommodate the floor?

I might consider upping the toe kick by a couple inches, and letting it taper to give a level base for the cabinets.

[Dave Richards]

What Carl said. I think if you do anything different everything is going to be extremely difficult. I know the toe kick space won't be even but if you do something else, a lot of other things won't be even and I think they'd show more.

[Kevin Guarnotta]

I've run into this a few times. I work around the Boston Area - so a lot of older homes with floors way out of whack. Even my own kitchen right now has a serious belly in the middle -which made for some interesting island issues.

My recommendation is to raise your toekick, making each cabinet with slightly different length sides is way too much work-and it doesn't really gain you anything, except a toe kick that is the same height. A toe kick is like a piece of trim-designed to cover up discrpeancies. Your eye won't see the toeckick difference. Well maybe your eye will, but anyone in your kitchen won't notice it. On the other hand if you make your cabients with different size sides, the fronts are going to have to accomodate that, and everything is going to look off.

One other suggestion-if this is your own house, the kitchen is on the first floor, and the structure is accessible underneath the kitchen-then try to jack up your floor a bit. I just did this on a house that was built in the early 1800's. I was able to take just over an inch of curse off the floor. The floors were still out of whack, but 1" less.

[John Piwaron]

Are you planning on keeping the drawers and doors level, or letting them tilt to accommodate the floor?

I might consider upping the toe kick by a couple inches, and letting it taper to give a level base for the cabinets.

Ditto. Exactly what I'd do. Doing that *might* put the countertop higher than standard if you maintain the height of the cabinet doors and/or drawers below. For me, that would actually work out great since I'm tall. But it's definitely non standard and might become a problem when the house is sold and the inspector or potential buyers realize it.

[Myk Rian]

Level the floor with cleats and a new top, then install the cabinets with equal toe kicks.
I can't imagine having a floor so out of level, that I wouldn't want it fixed.

[Sam Murdoch]

Jay - I see 4 solutions -

1) Build your base to be level and accept that the house is old and out of wack - people pay for that charm :) This is what I would do and perhaps add a detail near the floor that minimizes the 2" - a color break or an additional trim piece - See # 3 below. UNLESS # 4 is acceptable to the client.

2) Build two heights of cabinets to minimize the discrepancy.

3) Build a first layer base with a level top but a bottom that follows the floor but finished to match the floor and set back to allow a toe kick. Then build a short cabinet base on top of the first layer (also as a toe kick) so that all your cabinet can be built to one dimension and the cabinet base will look normal. "Normal" is a stretch because the top base will need to be a bit shorter than normal to allow for a regular height cabinet.

I would rather have all my cabinets be one height for ease of construction unless there is a good place in the room to change the elevation. You can't do that except away from the range. The cabs need to be the same height on either side of the range.

4) Build one bank of cabinets at the far end to go directly to the floor. A 3' to 4' wide "pantry" cabinet with a toe kick but no separate base. Let this be a bit deeper than the other cabs and have them all terminate into the bigger cabinet. You can detail the front of that pantry with the shadow of the toe kick hiding the floor out of level.

[Chris Rosenberger]

Does this kitchen include a dishwasher or any other undercounter appliance? If so, you need to be sure you allow enough height for those.
Also is a slide in range in this line of cabinets? If so, you need to be sure it does not set above the counter top.

I run into this often. The the floor in the kitchen I am currently doing was close to 3" out of level. We opted to level the floor.

As others have said, the preferred way is to level the floor. That is not always an option, because of exterior doors , or floor levels of adjoining rooms.

Another option is to install a level platform toe kick first & then build the cabinets without toe kicks to set on the platform.

I normally build all of the cabinets the same height & then scribe them to fit the floor as I install them. Floors in old houses are never a constant slope & a lot of trimming & shimming will still need to be done even if you try to build them to fit the slope.

If you do not have any appliances to deal with, I would suggest splitting the difference by making one end 1" high & the other 1" low.

[Peter Quinn]

I'd use a break at an appliance or sink or create a break front along that 18' run to change elevations. That much run of cabinets in a straight line is monotanous anyway. You could go from just under 4" kick to what ever it lands at the break, then start over again at close to the beginning of the run in elevation and drop to the final elevation. It won't be even, but it won't be as obvious, and it's a lot cheaper than fixing the house. Fixing the house is always an option, just not often one they want to pay for. Fixing the floor is cheaper but then you have a big step down if doorways are involved, most people don't like tripping hazards built into their homes. My own home is 100+ years old and the kitchen floor drops almost 2 3/4" over 16', so my kicks start at 4" and go to under 2". I'm planning to "terrace" the kicks when I get to replacing the cabs, jacking the house is a problem for chimneys, tile in the bathroom, and plaster walls.

[Jay Jolliffe]

Peter....Any chance of a pic of your tapering kick & what did you mean a terraced kick ?

[phil harold]

fix the floor or foundation...

[glenn bradley]

Floor or foundation repair not being an option I would disguise the difference through design (tiered kick, base designs, profiles) as others have suggested. If not, I would tolerate the expanding toe-kick height. I would never install cabinets at a tilt; that way leads madness.

[Phil Thien]

I'd use a break at an appliance or sink or create a break front along that 18' run to change elevations. That much run of cabinets in a straight line is monotanous anyway. You could go from just under 4" kick to what ever it lands at the break, then start over again at close to the beginning of the run in elevation and drop to the final elevation. It won't be even, but it won't be as obvious, and it's a lot cheaper than fixing the house. Fixing the house is always an option, just not often one they want to pay for. Fixing the floor is cheaper but then you have a big step down if doorways are involved, most people don't like tripping hazards built into their homes. My own home is 100+ years old and the kitchen floor drops almost 2 3/4" over 16', so my kicks start at 4" and go to under 2". I'm planning to "terrace" the kicks when I get to replacing the cabs, jacking the house is a problem for chimneys, tile in the bathroom, and plaster walls.

^^^ This is your answer.

[phil harold]

jacking the house is a problem for chimneys, tile in the bathroom, and plaster walls.

Matters how fast you jack the house
1/4 to 1/2 a turn per week on the lolly columns over 3 months and more will straighten plaster house up without cracking or popping. Chimneys are a problem because of their mass and usually settle more than the house, that is why you don’t connect framing to a masonry fireplace and if it has been they can be disconnected Lots of work admittedly but sometimes can be simply done

Look at it this way if you can take half of the distance (1") then you only have to fudge 1 inch in 18' so you could start with 4" and go to 3"

Make sure that where your appliances (stove DW compactor) are you have a minimum of 36"
Since I am a taller person I will usually will shim up than trim down and remember the vacuum cleaner need to fit in the toe kick

Old houses take a lot of fudging, splitting difference and making it look right
And you could possibly not install the counter level in 18' direction (always level or a little high front to back)
If your floors are out the ceiling could be too, and then when the client complains that the mixer does not fit under uppers on one side but does on the other...

If the cabinets are level and nothing else is, will it look good?
Maybe the original poster is not over-thinking this and a set of custom cabinets with a tapered height is the best solution!

Sometime it is best distance ourselves from technical obsessions when overall aesthetics are involved

[Peter Quinn]

Peter....Any chance of a pic of your tapering kick & what did you mean a terraced kick ?


It does require multiple sized boxes, but you can design that in and stick to two, maybe three different sizes on a run that length, scribe the ladder kicks in stages around logical breaks like a farmhouse sink, a range or even a dishwasher. Here is a jpeg of possible elevations. Thats an 18' run with a sink in the middle, a 3" elevation change over the distance. Its not invisible, but less so than a giant wedge from 4" to nothing, and it maintains usable toe space over the entire run.

[Sam Murdoch]

It does require multiple sized boxes, but you can design that in and stick to two, maybe three different sizes on a run that length, scribe the ladder kicks in stages around logical breaks like a farmhouse sink, a range or even a dishwasher. Here is a jpeg of possible elevations. Thats an 18' run with a sink in the middle, a 3" elevation change over the distance. Its not invisible, but less so than a giant wedge from 4" to nothing, and it maintains usable toe space over the entire run.

I like this solution too. Running the stiles to the floor in logical groups is a subtle and effective solution. Good call Peter.

[johnny means]

You're not going to hide a 2" change in elevation, so don't try. Matching the floors slope with the cabinets will only accentuate and repeat the offending line. Hang your cabinets level and straight. Your floors will still look sloped, but your cabinets will look great.

[Michael Moscicki]

Why not just level the floor under the cabinets and match the raised part with what is on the floor?

Currently leveling a kitchen with my dad. We removed the offending planks. Replaced them with plywood and are pouring cement to level the floor. Luckily we just have to level it to match the part of the kitchen that adjoins the next room.

[phil harold]

Your floors will still look sloped, but your cabinets will look great.
So overall the kitchen will look not look good?!?!?

[Mark Wooden]

Get the floor straightened up first; then see what you can do in terms of the kick space taper. I agree that when over an 1" out of level, the platform method works easiest. Peters suggestion is a good one, especially when working off a level platform.
What about the cieling above?

[Michael Mayo]

We had the same problem in our old house when we re-did the kitchen. Nothing was level or square anymore since the house was built in 1929. We just removed the existing cabinets and refinished them and when we were ready to re-install them we just installed them as normal. There was a significant difference at the bottom of the cabinets from end to end but the difference was just hidden by the base moulding we put over the toe kicks. Just cut the base moulding to conform to the uneven gap. I wanted level counters and didn't care about the bottom's of the cabinets and if they were level or consistent gap wise. You never even notice it frankly. But maybe I am not completely understanding your particular situation. I do know that working on an old house is not one of my favorite things after working on the money pit.