Warping Cabinet Doors

[Jack Pinkham]

Two of the wall cabinets doors which the contractor just hung have warping.
One door is bowed in a convex shape and the other is bowed in a concave shape.
Is it likely that the warping is permanent, or might it get worse, or might it straighten out over time? I believe that the doors are cvg veneer over particle board.250927250928250929

Thanks!

[Jim Andrew]

I had some plywood doors just go completely nuts years ago when that was the style. I replaced the doors, and put the old ones in my storage shed, and after while they straightened out.

[George Bokros]

I would have him replace the doors and make it clear that if any additional warp within a year you will expect them replaced no charge.

[HANK METZ]

A warp is a warp, replacement under warranty is indicated.

- Beachside Hank
Improvise, adapt, overcome; the essence of true craftsmanship.

[Jay Jolliffe]

Like everyone else has said. You paid for new cabinets & they don't come with warped doors.

[Jack Pinkham]

I find the warped doors unacceptable, too. I believe that he stored them in my unheated garage. He might have known that they were warped and put them up last in the hopes that we wouldn't notice, or in hopes that we were just sick of him taking 110 days for a 13x15 kitchen and would want to be rid of him.

When looking on the web for "warped cabinet doors", I came across the "warped door policy" of a couple of manufacturers. They refuse to replace warped doors unless they have gone through a complete heating and cooling season. They also consider anything less than 1/4" or 3/8" to not really be warpage. Seems like they are hoping the warranty will run out, or the buyer will lose interest after a year waiting for the doors to straighten out.

Our trust for him is zero. Yesterday he claimed that the 5" cabinet pull package we put in a drawer so that he couldn't make a mistake drilling holes for it somehow transported itself into a wall cabinet in which we had put 6"
pulls. Of course, he drilled the wall cabinets for the smaller pulls. He then claimed that the pulls which were labeled
5" center to center were actually 6" in over all length, so how was he to know?

[Al Launier]

I'm sorry to hear about your dilemma. I'm sure you're hearing about this from the lady of the house as well, as this is usually the most important room in the house for the wife.

It appears that you have a legal claim against this contractor for shoddy work. Having stored the cabinets in your garage, instead of inside your home for sufficient time for them to "condition" themselves to the indoor environment prior to hanging, tells me he doesn't know what he is doing. If they had been conditioned inside, the warpage, if any, would have been noticeable & the warped pieces not used.

This, of course, is all "after the fact". However, as your trust in him is zero, and if he doesn't respond to your requests (in writing) to resolve the damage to your satisfaction, threaten to take legal action if he doesn't immediately replace the doors (and other components if also affected). If necessary, a letter from your attorney should get him off center to correct the situation.

Also, you might want to find out what his record is with the BBB and what the written & local "understanding" is for how long a contractor is obligated to stand behind his work. By the way, you did have a contract with him - right? Finally, tell him you are going to report this to the BBB and will publish this situation in the local newspaper(s) if he doesn't respond immediately. Public awareness of shoddy workmanship tends to have an impact on those that don't conduct themselves in a professional manner. It's time to get tough witht his contractor!

[Jack Pinkham]

We have a punch list of about 30 items, but we're not going to give them to him until he announces that he's done. That's because the last time I gave him a list of 5 problem areas, he became very angry and accused us of being serial complainers. If he's angry he has the potential to screw up the remaining work. He's apparently currently operating on the belief that if finishes the remaining work satisfactorily, we will forgive all the defects.

Once he refuses to correct the problems, we will start the complaint process through the state construction board. They will send out a mediator (not an arbitrator) who will have an onsite discussion with the contractor and us. The contractor has already said that a mediator would be applying "the six foot rule". If a defect can't be noticed from 6 feet away, it's not a defect! I did notice on the state web site, that no supplemental lighting is allowed when pointing out defects. This really helps out careless drywallers. Anyway, if the mediation is not fruitful, we will initiate a small claims suit. If the suit is decided in our favor, the state construction board will obtain the judgement from his surety and compensate us. We recently observed a small claims court in action. The court strongly urged litigants to arbitrate instead of using a trial.

We also intend to hand the contractor a request from Angie's List for our rating of him, along with a blank rating form. We'll ask him if he wants to correct any of the problems before we write the review.

[Jim Foster]

I've never seen the cabinet backs of a cabinet exposed. Is this the way they are supposed to be assembled? Sorry if this question is off-track.

[Jack Pinkham]

I've never seen the cabinet backs of a cabinet exposed. Is this the way they are supposed to be assembled? Sorry if this question is off-track.

That is another sore point. He intends to put a trim piece there. In fact, he will bend it (or if I'm nice to him, he will scribe it) to follow the new drywall which covers the removed soffits, and which he had a contractor replace. The replaced drywall is 1/2" thick and the existing walls are 3/4" lath and plaster. Instead of telling his subcontractor to fur out the replacement drywall, he is satisfied with a transition from thick to thin sheetrock, ("the eye will never notice it"). Well, my eyes did notice it and it's on my punch list.

We assumed that, as the master craftsman he claimed to be, he would not have exposed particle board backs, yet he did this on all his cabinets.

[J.R. Rutter]

When looking on the web for "warped cabinet doors", I came across the "warped door policy" of a couple of manufacturers. They refuse to replace warped doors unless they have gone through a complete heating and cooling season. They also consider anything less than 1/4" or 3/8" to not really be warpage. Seems like they are hoping the warranty will run out, or the buyer will lose interest after a year waiting for the doors to straighten out.

The problem is that wood does move. I had a customer last year who shipped cabinets from WA to Alaska where they sat in the unfinished house in February/March before installation. Surprise! I get a call that all of the doors are 1/16" too small and that some are warping and cracking. I did replace the broken doors at no charge, despite the fact that these did not meet the criteria for storage in climate controlled conditions. They wanted all of the doors replaced, citing the size discrepancy. I made them wait until summer when the sizes got re-checked. Magically, everything is now the correct size. Humidity and temperature really do cause problems, which is why that language is written into warranty contracts.

If the doors just got installed after storage in unheated space, give them a bit of time before demanding replacement. If they are still bowed in a week or two, get them replaced. I'm not making excuses for the contractor - he seems like a real piece of work - but just trying to be real.

[Richard Coers]

How long have the doors been up? Are both side veneered with the same veneer? Do both sides have the same amount of finish on them? When panels warp, one side is changing faster than the other side. Less finish and different veneer species can absorb or release moisture faster. Then you get the bowing. I would never use particle board for a door substrate, maybe they are MDF? I'd open those doors up a little at night to help the air see both sides and see if they stabilize.

[Jack Pinkham]

How long have the doors been up? Are both side veneered with the same veneer? Do both sides have the same amount of finish on them? When panels warp, one side is changing faster than the other side. Less finish and different veneer species can absorb or release moisture faster. Then you get the bowing. I would never use particle board for a door substrate, maybe they are MDF? I'd open those doors up a little at night to help the air see both sides and see if they stabilize.

Both sides have the same veneer. I can't detect a different amount of finish on each side. They have been up a few days. They might be MDF, I'm not sure.

[John TenEyck]

I agree with JR, wood moves and it could be that they will straighten out in a few days if you leave them open. If they don't and the contractor won't replace them, can you swap them with other cabinets where they would be less noticeable? And I assume you haven't paid him completely yet, so you can always deduct the price of new doors and whatever else is left undone or not in accordance with the contract, from what you still owe him. As long as you are still in control you should be able to resolve the problems you are having with this guy.

John

[Lee Schierer]

Both sides have the same veneer. I can't detect a different amount of finish on each side. They have been up a few days. They might be MDF, I'm not sure.

Leave the doors open overnight for a few days. This will allow air circulation on the inside surfaces, which may help equalize the moisture content and correct the warp.

[Richard McComas]

If you take this guy to court over warped doors you may be disappointed with the results. No cabinet door company I know of warrants Cabinet doors to stay perfectly flat. Most warrant within certain tolerances. No cabinet company I know of will ever warrant doors 42'' or taller. Below are a couple of links to cabinet door companies warranties . I believe most door companies will have similar warranties. If the contractor presents these warranties to a judge as the norm in the door business I doubt he's going to rule in your favor.

That being said, I believe you have some legitimate on some of the other deficiencies and workmanship.



http://www.advantagecabinetdoors.com/product-warranty/

http://cabinetdoorstore.com/ecom.asp?pg=warranty

[Jack Pinkham]

After a few days, some of the warp has resolved. It's still noticeable, but perhaps with more time the doors will flatten. The doors are plywood with cvg fir veneer front and back.

[Brett Bobo]

That is another sore point. He intends to put a trim piece there. In fact, he will bend it (or if I'm nice to him, he will scribe it) to follow the new drywall which covers the removed soffits, and which he had a contractor replace. The replaced drywall is 1/2" thick and the existing walls are 3/4" lath and plaster. Instead of telling his subcontractor to fur out the replacement drywall, he is satisfied with a transition from thick to thin sheetrock, ("the eye will never notice it"). Well, my eyes did notice it and it's on my punch list.

We assumed that, as the master craftsman he claimed to be, he would not have exposed particle board backs, yet he did this on all his cabinets.

Sorry for all of your frustrations thus far. Regarding the exposed backs, I'm trying to understand what exactly happened because it now appears that you have the original back of the cabinet, which is now a false back and seen on the interior of the cabinet, and an additional back that is acting as a filler due to the difference in drywall thickness of ~1/4". If that's correct, did he start the run of cabinets from the adjacent (to the window) walls on each side and work towards the window wall? Was the 1/2" drywall not installed when he started the cabinet runs? It seems like he worked backwards, instead of from the window wall out, or at least wait until he had finished walls before hanging cabinets.

[Jack Pinkham]

Sorry for all of your frustrations thus far. Regarding the exposed backs, I'm trying to understand what exactly happened because it now appears that you have the original back of the cabinet, which is now a false back and seen on the interior of the cabinet, and an additional back that is acting as a filler due to the difference in drywall thickness of ~1/4". If that's correct, did he start the run of cabinets from the adjacent (to the window) walls on each side and work towards the window wall? Was the 1/2" drywall not installed when he started the cabinet runs? It seems like he worked backwards, instead of from the window wall out, or at least wait until he had finished walls before hanging cabinets.

I didn't explain this clearly. Two of the wall cabinets are installed
where soffits were removed. The drywall subcontractor put 1/2" sheetrock where the soffits were removed. The rest of the wall is 3/4" thick lath and plaster. Instead of putting 1/4" furring under the new 1/2" sheetrock, the contractor "transitioned" from new 1/2" to existing 3/4". Some of this transition is behind the new wall cabinets.
In other words, there is a gap behind the wall cabinet that goes from zero near the bottom to 1/4" at the top.
To hide this gap, he will install a trim piece on the side of the wall cabinet that will hide the particle board edge and
hide the gap. The gap should never have been there, but he should at least scribe the trim piece so that it is plumb on one edge and touching the wall on the other edge. He previously tried to bend trim at the ceiling instead of scribing, so that is what my remark was about,

[Jeff Duncan]

After a few days, some of the warp has resolved. It's still noticeable, but perhaps with more time the doors will flatten. The doors are plywood with cvg fir veneer front and back.

I personally would not use modern plywood for that type of door unless it was some type of specialty situation. MDF is a much more stable material and when veneered properly and using the correct hardware, will generally be stable and stay flat. Unfortunately based on your threads about this project I believe this person is just not capable of quality work. There are almost always several ways to accomplish a given task in woodworking and cabinetmaking. However there are also ways which should be avoided, and knowledge and experience win out over the guy who seems like he learned from watching HGTV shows!

I wish you luck and hope you eventually get it all sorted out in the end, but unfortunately I think your likely to keep finding problems as time passes:(

good luck,
JeffD

[George Gyulatyan]

I personally would not use modern plywood for that type of door unless it was some type of specialty situation. MDF is a much more stable material and when veneered properly and using the correct hardware, will generally be stable and stay flat.

Yup. Even particle board would've been a better substrate. There is no excuse for that kind of warpage on properly constructed veneered slab doors.

And the backs? ay ay ay!