A New Tool In My Shop

[Bill Grumbine]

Greetings all

I realize that this should be titled some sort of gloat, and under most circumstances, it would be a gloat, full of the joy of a new tool, an allegedly nice new tool. That post will come later, if at all. I am posting though, to let you all know that I have put a new tool into service, but with more headache and frustration that is warranted with a tool this expensive. Way more.

Several weeks ago my bandsaw went belly up. I had planned on replacing it later on this year anyway, with something much larger and more powerful, so instead of fixing it, we decided to sell it as is and buy the new saw now. I had my eye on a Mini Max MM20, so I called down to Mini Max to see about the show model for the show that would be in town in the next few weeks. In very short order they had a deposit, and I was gleefully counting down the days until I would really be able to do some bandsawing.

I picked the saw up two weeks ago today. The Fed Ex guy just left a few minutes ago after delivering the last part I need (I hope) to make the thing right, and I can now turn it on and start some cutting. Overall the saw looks like a good tool, but with all the garbage I have had to go through, it is going to be quite some time before I can look at it without my blood pressure rising. I am not going to go into all the sordid details, but suffice to say if someone asked me if I would do it again, the answer would be a resounding NO!

So call this an antigloat. I do not have any pictures of it installed in the shop yet, although I do have some if it being loaded into my truck. Jim Becker and Alan Turner were very helpful in that respect, pictures and loading. Thanks guys, and hopefully I will have a smile on my face by the time Five Barns rolls around.

Bill

[Martin Shupe]

Sorry to hear about your frustrations, Bill. I hope things smooth out soon.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Bill,

Hopefully this will set your saw striaght! I had similar problems with mine (Took about a month to get running). Now that it is, I wouldn't trade it for the world. Hopefully your experience is the same!

[Alan Turner]

Bill
What is the story on the table? Is it now flat, or in alignment? Did they supply a fresh one, or did you have to find a grinder? Just curious, but for me, finding a grinder, drop off, pick up, disinstall, reinstall, etc. Big pain for a new tool, even if they do cover the grinder's charges.

[Jason Tuinstra]

Hopefully I will have a smile on my face by the time Five Barns rolls around.

Bill

Until then... :D

[Jim Becker]

Geepers, Jason...that looks like Bill is throwing us all a kiss!! ;)

Bill, I hope things get resolved to your satisfaction soon.

[Jason Tuinstra]

Geepers, Jason...that looks like Bill is throwing us all a kiss!! ;)

Come on, cut me a break :p It's hard to edit a picture that is 50 pixels square. :D :)

[Andy London]

Geepers, Jason...that looks like Bill is throwing us all a kiss!! ;)

Bill, I hope things get resolved to your satisfaction soon.

Don't think so Jim, looks to me like he is chawing tobacco :rolleyes:

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi guys

Well I am cheering up a bit, but part of that might be the fact that I am done working for the day, and I am sitting here with an adult beverage close at hand.

Alan, I was given authorization to get the table ground flat. I cranked and cranked on the leveling bolts as instructed, but all I did was put a bow in the table. So now I have a super flat table, but you are right about the pain. Get it off the saw (and it ain't light by a long shot!), drive 70 miles round trip to the closest grinder, or at least the closest grinder of good repute. I was referred to the company by a friend of mine from church whose company builds machines that weigh in at 400 tons! :eek: I was also fortunate that I caught them just before a machine setup change. They got the table done in 24 hours. If I had called one day later, it would have been three to four weeks. But, it was 140 miles, and over 1/2 day of time to get it right.

Then the thing did not have all the right parts to use the smaller blades, so I had to call for them. And then call for them again after a week! And then call AGAIN when the wrong ones were sent. It appears that I now have all the right parts, and the saw is sawing as it should. I still do not have it connected to the DC yet, as I am not quite sure that where I have it is the best place for it. But that is minor.

Jason, I am impressed, but shouldn't you be working on a sermon or something? ;) I've got to work on one for Mother's Day. When Mom calls and invites me to preach on Mother's Day, how many answers can there be to that question!?!

To the rest of you, I am cheering up a bit, and not just from my adult beverage, although it is helping (...and wine that maketh glad the heart of man...). The saw cuts well, but I am dreading my next contact with a certain cretin who has some standing with the company. Hopefully it will be a loooonnnnnggg time before that comes up - like never.

You know, I got to thinking while I was up in the shop this afternoon after posting on this. My last posting on a new tool was about the Shelix cutter and all the problems I had with those folks. It was eventually resolved, but I am getting to the point where I have to wonder, am I turning into a curmudgeon? Are my expectations of competence unreasonably high? I know that everyone makes mistakes, and I am in that group myself, more often than I care to admit, but it just seems that lately I have had a run of encounters with people who do not know, do not care, and wonder why I do. Maybe I should go out and buy some more tools to test my theory, but I am not sure that my heart could take the stress!

Bill

[Dev Emch]

Bill...

What kind is issues did you have in getting this saw online? Sorry if I missed this info in another post. Were parts missing or were they broken during shipping?

I have not bought any asian machines myself but have helped out with a couple of friends who have. Needless to say, we were not amused. One was a jointer, the other was a dust collector and the third was a metal lathe. in the case of both the jointer and the dust collector, items that were suposed to be precision machined simply were not machined. The lathe was a disaster and wound up having to be rebuilt, rescraped and refit to actually cut something with any degree of accuracy. An old bow back nag South Bend ready for the scraper could cut more accurately than this thing. Now, it works great but how much rework did it take on our behalf to get it there!! One reason to always try to buy the floor model as you know the kinks have already been worked out.

The following two photos are circa 1930/1940 yates Y-20 snowflake saws. The gray one belongs to a buddy and was totally stripped to its underwear and rebuilt. The green one is mine. I have been after this saw for over a year and finally got a semi decent deal worked out this its previous owner. Not bottom feeder prices but decent. The gray one was a total rust bucket, hanger queen in worse shape than mine. At least mine runs like a top for right now. Even got some extra blades thrown in including a highland hardware resaw blade and some suffolk blades. The plan is to clean it up, dial it in quickly and use it for the summer season. Then next fall when the snow comes, I will tear it totally down and rebuild it exactly as my buddy did the gray one.

[Jason Tuinstra]

Bill, since I've been in California, I've come to truly appriciate Psalm 104!

Now about your sermon - see if you can preach on father's day as well and preach on Proverbs 31 for both! The man who speaks and the woman who fulfills! In our circles, we don't usually preach sermons related to special days, but if we did, I've often wanted to preach Proverbs 31 for both.

Have fun.

[Dev Emch]

Opps, I left out the pictures. Here is my new bandsaw. Its a 1933 snowflake and it has virtually all the new saw bells and whistles including a brake.

Turns out I have already uploaded the "brand new" gray Y-20. Here is the URL to get you to that picture.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=19453

[Jim Becker]

I have not bought any asian machines myself but have helped out with a couple of friends who have. Needless to say, we were not amused.

This is not an Asian machine. It's an Italian bandsaw made by Centauro and marketed in the US by Mini Max USA (http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.html).

[Martin Shupe]

Hi guys

You know, I got to thinking while I was up in the shop this afternoon after posting on this. My last posting on a new tool was about the Shelix cutter and all the problems I had with those folks. It was eventually resolved, but I am getting to the point where I have to wonder, am I turning into a curmudgeon? Are my expectations of competence unreasonably high? I know that everyone makes mistakes, and I am in that group myself, more often than I care to admit, but it just seems that lately I have had a run of encounters with people who do not know, do not care, and wonder why I do. Maybe I should go out and buy some more tools to test my theory, but I am not sure that my heart could take the stress!

Bill

Bill,

When you pay as much as you did for the Shelix, and as much as you did for the MM20, the tools should be delivered not only on time, but in perfect condition and ready to run right out of the box. Are your expectations too high? Not unless you bought your tools from Harbor Freight, which in this case, you certainly did not.

Keep us posted regarding how you like the saw after you get over the initial setup/poor quality of the tabletop grind.

When you pay that much for a tool, the purchase should be a pleasant experience. See Per Swenson's post on his new Sawstop...I think his words were..."the saw was tuned perfectly, right out of the box", and "the saw screamed quality". That's the kind of customer satisfaction I like to see.

Hope the saw will bring you many hours of enjoyable, trouble-free work in the future.

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi Dev

The saw is not Asian, it is Italian, and the problem is not so much with the saw itself, although there were problems with parts missing and the table not being flat. No, the biggest problem was having to call THREE STINKING TIMES to get the parts that were supposed to be with the saw in the first place. The problem is calling and having to talk to a MORON who fancies himself an expert on these tools. The problem is having to deal with said moron regarding three different tools and getting a huge dose of stupidity each time. So, it is not so much the tool as the person with whom I have to do.

Bill

[Bill Grumbine]

Bill, since I've been in California, I've come to truly appriciate Psalm 104!

Now about your sermon - see if you can preach on father's day as well and preach on Proverbs 31 for both! The man who speaks and the woman who fulfills! In our circles, we don't usually preach sermons related to special days, but if we did, I've often wanted to preach Proverbs 31 for both.

Have fun.

It is a tradition Jason, and I am not yet ready to break that one, iconoclast that I am. Mother's Day, Father's Day, Christmas and Easter are pretty much the only ones. I am going to do a topical sermon, something I rarely do, and I have already planned on putting in something from Proverbs 31. I am thinking of something along the lines of obedient women, citing Moses' mother, Ruth, Mary, and then finishing up with Hebrews 12 to tie it all together. However, this is a Methodist church, so I may only have 15 minutes to talk!

Bill

[Bill Grumbine]

Bill,

When you pay that much for a tool, the purchase should be a pleasant experience. See Per Swenson's post on his new Sawstop...I think his words were..."the saw was tuned perfectly, right out of the box", and "the saw screamed quality". That's the kind of customer satisfaction I like to see.


Well, everyone was smiling and joking around, and having a good ole time at the time of purchase, and of course I was very excited to be upgrading from my Jet 14" machine. You are right Martin, it should have been trouble free, and while that is not always the case, it is followup that really counts, and in this case the followup has been abysmal. Other people (plural intended) have spoken very highly of the person who has given me so much grief, so I have to wonder if is might be personal. Maybe I got on the wrong side of him or something, but that should not matter. Until someone can prove otherwise, I have to consider that he is an idiot, and based on many more than one experience, I do not mind saying so publicly.

Bill

[George Summers]

Bill -

Not to try to start something but I have to ask. You said you got it from a show at, I presume, a decent show demo discount. From what I have seen, I don't think that show machines (at least the static displays) are set up much better than some of the machines on the Harbor Freight showroom floor. Could the missing parts have been missing at the show (thrown out by the reps when they half assembled it)? Or, could it have even been to one or two shows before this one and had poor transport between shows? When one does buy a show demo unit, do they automatically agree to take it as-is, where-is? Like I say, I don't know the full story and I'm not trying to start anything, just pondering and asking.

George

[Juan Rivera]

Bill,

I agree 100% with Martin to the fact that when you pay this much money for a tool you should get everything up to exact or close to exact spaecifications. I honestly believe the folks at Minimax will take care of everything for you, but who wants to deal these inconveniences after spending so much money?

I just recently picked up my new MM16 and I'll be working on setup and start-up this weekend. I to have a few questions and concerns but thats another post.
Could you tell me how far out of flat was your table, how much did it cost to fix and how are you getting refunded?

[Dev Emch]

Hi Bill....

Out of Italy! I did not know that. You learn something everyday.

Done that, been there. I love my shaper but I am not legally allowed to discuss some of the issues I had with it. Nothing with the machine. It is perfect but with the US dealer. (Hint. Think about LT bandsaws). I have had dealings with martin as I have an old martin table saw. The parts are no longer available. When I needed a dado expansion kit for the arbor to allow me to run dado blades, I was told that they could not help me. That the part was no longer available. But what they did do was fax me the engineering drawing and even made some careful notes regarding certain dimensions that vary between the US and the german versions. They were very helpful in assisting me to make one of these parts. They could have told me to pound sand and tuff nuggies. They did not. You will learn that when you deal with most technical germans, they have no sense of humor. They answer every question in hyper accurate solutions and even give you unwanted tips on how not to bugger up the machine. They take extreme pride in what they do and in making sure you are both happy and your problems resolved. I have found this true with many various german companies or german speaking companies such as GKS/Techimpex, Martin, Hofmann, Felder, Suvamatic, etc. Felder is austrian and Suvamatic is swiss.

[Bill Grumbine]

Bill -

Not to try to start something but I have to ask. You said you got it from a show at, I presume, a decent show demo discount. From what I have seen, I don't think that show machines (at least the static displays) are set up much better than some of the machines on the Harbor Freight showroom floor. Could the missing parts have been missing at the show (thrown out by the reps when they half assembled it)? Or, could it have even been to one or two shows before this one and had poor transport between shows? When one does buy a show demo unit, do they automatically agree to take it as-is, where-is? Like I say, I don't know the full story and I'm not trying to start anything, just pondering and asking.

George

Hi George

No worries about starting anything, I am fully aware of the conditions of buying a show machine. This machine was to its first show, and show machine means that it might have a few dings, and might be missing a few parts. Even though it is a show machine, they guarantee it with the full warranty, and they promise that if all the parts are not there, they will be provided after the show is over via mail.

It should not have a warped table. I understand that that could happen to any machine and the company says they will take care of it. I paid for it and am waiting to be reimbursed. Missing parts I understand as well. What I do not understand is having to call three times to get those parts, get the runaound along with some poorly conceived lies about why they were not sent in the first place. I do not understand being told that the part is there, even when it obviously isn't. After all, I am the one who is on the scene, and the person telling me what I am really seeing is thousands of mile away. If the guy is going to lie to me, it should at least be a good lie. Not all good lies are even believable, but are civil conventions. The person with whom I was dealing was lying on the fly, blaming another person who has demonstrated competence and reliability on several occasions, and then contradicting himself in his very next sentence!

A lot of my grief comes from this being my third Mini Max machine and getting the same BS on every one from the very same person! Maybe I am at fault for buying the second and third machines, and truth be told, I am wondering about that myself at this point. When I call technical support with a question about a machine, I should get a knowledgable answer in a reasonable amount of time. I should not get the runaround for weeks on end (that really happened), I should not get BS stories that have no basis in fact, and most of all, I should not have to call repeatedly to get an answer, any answer, out of the person responsible for knowing the basic facts about these machines.

But sadly, that has been the case with every single one of them. With one machine I was jerked around for three weeks before the other tech took pity on me and hooked me up with a tech from SCMI, who solved my problem in about 30 seconds. On another machine, I was told that people did not do what I wanted to do (cut a full sheet of plywood in half) and that I would have to perform a procedure that would take close to half an hour to remove and reinstall a guard each time I wanted to do that. On that one, after a little bit of study on my own, I discovered how the machine had been designed to move the guard by removing another part in a procedure that literally took seconds to accomplish. So, this last one is just the last one in a progression of problems, or as they say, a comedy of errors. Only problem is, I am not laughing, and I am wondering why I keep buying from these guys. As far as any complaining goes, people are asking me for details, so I am providing them.

Bill

[Bill Grumbine]

Could you tell me how far out of flat was your table, how much did it cost to fix and how are you getting refunded?

Hi Juan

It is hard to say exactly how far the table was out, as it was torqued down pretty hard when I got it. On the advice of the owner of the company, I loosened all the bolts and let it relax, but that did not fix the problem. I managed to get it pretty close to the point where the two "flaps" on the sides of the blade slot were even, but then the table was warped significantly. When the talble was flat, the flaps were out by 1/32". I paid $180.00 to have it reground and sent the invoice in. I am supposed to be getting a check in the mail.

Bill

[Chuck Wintle]

Hi Dev

The saw is not Asian, it is Italian, and the problem is not so much with the saw itself, although there were problems with parts missing and the table not being flat. No, the biggest problem was having to call THREE STINKING TIMES to get the parts that were supposed to be with the saw in the first place. The problem is calling and having to talk to a MORON who fancies himself an expert on these tools. The problem is having to deal with said moron regarding three different tools and getting a huge dose of stupidity each time. So, it is not so much the tool as the person with whom I have to do.

Bill
If companies only realized how negative bad word of mouth can be for sales figures. All customers should be dealt with in a positive manner and not left to rue their purchases. I am surprised that you had to run around to get the table ground flat..they should have shipped a new one right away.

[Terry Hatfield]

Bill said...."I paid for it and am waiting to be reimbursed."

You have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You got a machine with a warped table and you had to pay for a replacement and wait to get reimbursed??????? Unbelieveable!!!

Hope it works out in the end.

t

[John Shuk]

Bill,
I feel for you. I bought a Laguna bandsaw and had plenty of problems. I still have issues but have never gotten them satisfied. I also had a serious problem with the "customer service expert" they hired. I get ogida every time I go near the machine. I hope to get past it someday. Good luck with the machine.

[Frank Pellow]

Bill...
...
I have not bought any asian machines myself but have helped out with a couple of friends who have.
Dev, Bill's machine is made in Italy, not Asia. And, Mini Max has a good reputation so Bill seems to be one of few unlucky ones.


Bill, sorry to hear that you are having problems with the machine. I hope that things get staightened out for you soon.

[Dev Emch]

Sorry Frank...

Based on the warp issues and missing parts and my experience.... I jumped to a false and incorrect conclusion. Sorry about that. Often its difficult to know where this stuff was made. Its like Max oscillationg spindle sanders. Did you know that some of these very same model sanders were made by tannewitz et al in the US and the later ones were made overseas but sold through tanni's max division?

[Barry Londrigan]

Bill

I thought about sending a private message to you to ask you the questions that I have but then I felt that all could benefit from them. I am simply "freaking out"! I have a MM20 that I have not been able to do any real scrutinizing on as of yet because I am consumed with just beginning to set up shop and have not been able to devote the time to my new purchase so there it sits...and now I am worried. I am new to woodworking. I fear my ignorance on many levels may cause me to accept substandard quality. I just went out with a 12" straightedge and tested my saw top for flatness. It was nowhere close according to the steel rule. I am seriosly dismayed. I am hoping to hear that I need a machinist square or something like that but I feel that won't be the case. I am afraid that I too have a top like you have experienced and like other posts here that I have read. I do have some specific questions...like how did you determine that it was not flat? I can see daylight under a steel rule...easily! The parts that were missing? What were they...there is a parts manual (which I feel is very poor...one manual is diffeerent from another) so maybe you can be specific. Question to all: What is the best way for me to determine the flatness of my MM20 top? Should I accept anything less than flat? I paid the big money in hopes of avoiding this sort of thing but now find myself "freaking about it"! I have encountered rust problems with the guide post lowering mech. but got past that...I have since been working on my shop construction and "set the MM20 aside" but do not want to let this issue rest if I too have a bad table top! What do you think?

[Martin Shupe]

Bill

I thought about sending a private message to you to ask you the questions that I have but then I felt that all could benefit from them. I am simply "freaking out"! I have a MM20 that I have not been able to do any real scrutinizing on as of yet because I am consumed with just beginning to set up shop and have not been able to devote the time to my new purchase so there it sits...and now I am worried. I am new to woodworking. I fear my ignorance on many levels may cause me to accept substandard quality. I just went out with a 12" straightedge and tested my saw top for flatness. It was nowhere close according to the steel rule. I am seriosly dismayed. I am hoping to hear that I need a machinist square or something like that but I feel that won't be the case. I am afraid that I too have a top like you have experienced and like other posts here that I have read. I do have some specific questions...like how did you determine that it was not flat? I can see daylight under a steel rule...easily! The parts that were missing? What were they...there is a parts manual (which I feel is very poor...one manual is diffeerent from another) so maybe you can be specific. Question to all: What is the best way for me to determine the flatness of my MM20 top? Should I accept anything less than flat? I paid the big money in hopes of avoiding this sort of thing but now find myself "freaking about it"! I have encountered rust problems with the guide post lowering mech. but got past that...I have since been working on my shop construction and "set the MM20 aside" but do not want to let this issue rest if I too have a bad table top! What do you think?

Barry...

A steel ruler may or may not be "straight". Either borrow a straight edge from a friend, or I believe Lee Valley sells a reasonably priced straight edge that would be suitable for checking your table for flatness.

[Alan Turner]

Bill's was out of flat right at the slot where the blade is installed. You could feel it with your finger and needed no straightedge. I don't know if it was unflat elsewhere also.

[lou sansone]

Bill


Sorry to hear of your problems. Here are a few thoughts
1. First, let me say that I hope you do get this resolved one way or another. I think that is somewhat hard for some people to be impartial on this particualr issue if they own MM tools ( although I do applaud your honesty and objectivity).

2. From this post and others that I have read it seems that MM has a quality control issue, as well as a customer service problem. From an engineering perspective I would say that they have some management issues. Not wanting to spread urban legends, but I had heard that this was an issue with them.

3. Since as others have said MM does not actually make the saw, only imports the saw ( centurao actually makes the saw ), one could assume that the problems go all the way back to the mfg on the quality control issue. That does not let MM off the hook though, because they should be insisting on 100% quality.

4. I am sort of new at SMC, but when I came here I was struck by a couple of things. First of all it seemed that MM bad saws were on top and all others were in a distant 2nd. That supprised me for a number of reasons that I really do not want to take time to go into. The second thing that I found interesting was how many folks simply had to have carbide tipped resaw blades for their saws. In short, I was left with the impression that the only viable BS setup was a mm-16 and a carbide tipped blade.

5. I have used neither and have had excellent results for many years. This is not the place to say what I do use in my shop.

6. I think that these forums are usefull when, as you have done, folks can be more objective ( you did do a little ranting by your own admission ) about their tools. After this and other posts would I NOT buy a mm? It would cause me to take a very good look at their tools and not just follow the crowd.

best wishes
respectfully
lou

[Gary Max]

Bill
I went through the same battle with my bandsaw--Laguna HD16. This lasted for over a year and I just gave up fighting with them. I talked to the owner and everyone eles I could find trying to get my saw squared away---never happened. Maybe it's just me--I wanted the saw to be as close to perfect as possible. I sat here for months waiting on FREE parts.
The decals fell off the saw---so customers do not see any name on it--which is good. I almost painted it green--really that mad.
If they ask about it---I just tell them it's from Italy.
So for me it comes down to a point of where in the heck can I buy a good machine at--that I can get service????????
Oh I did stop buying from them after just one machine.

[John Hart]

I don't know why companies these days think that they are immune to the effects of lousy customer service. What..do they think we don't notice? Or is it the arrogance to think that we can't go anywhere else?

What I like to do is make them pay. I start calling them a lot with lots of questions and complaints so that their time is consumed. Then I figure out quick little emails that makes them do hours of research. It may not solve anything but it sure makes me feel better about them skimping on customer service to improve their bottom line. :p

[Bill Grumbine]

Bill said...."I paid for it and am waiting to be reimbursed."

You have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You got a machine with a warped table and you had to pay for a replacement and wait to get reimbursed??????? Unbelieveable!!!

Hope it works out in the end.

t

Hi Terry

Hopefully it is not all that bad. On the authority of the tech guy, I paid to have the table reground locally, and then submitted the invoice to the company. They did not make me pay for a new table. Truth be told, I was happier getting the one I have ground flat, since there would be no guarantee that a replacement would be any better.

Bill

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Bill,

It truely amazes me that these highly expesive, "high quality" tool makers do not provide the service to back up the tool! Go to Laguna.com and look at the message board. There are many unhappy people. Search on the web and you will be able to find more than just this account of MM not having great service.

These really are great tools, but the service on them seems to be slipping.

[Bill Grumbine]

Bill

...I have since been working on my shop construction and "set the MM20 aside" but do not want to let this issue rest if I too have a bad table top! What do you think?

Hi Barry

First of all let me tell you that if you are having problems, you should attend to them as soon as possible. I believe that they will make good on them, but if you have to go through the same guy I did, be prepared to be persistent. There are a lot of good guys working there, who really know their stuff. Marco in parts is a good example. I have dealt with him on several occasions, and he is knowledgeable, reliable, and efficient. Sam and Michael in sales have both been very good to me, following up on things that I have called to ask about, etc. Apart from the physical issues of the saw itself, it is just this one guy who just can't seem to do his job. The story I got was that he was in fact very competent, but that he is overworked due to them being down one employee right now, but that wasn't the case with my first encounters with him. I am pretty patient and easygoing, but if I happened to meet up with this guy in person, I might end up breathing a little fire.

This ain't no hobby for me, it is my business, and I have people waiting on me to deliver. Even more importantly, I teach woodturning, and my bandsaw is an integral part of that. When people spend big bucks to come here, and many people come from all over the country, I cannot afford to tell them we can't saw out a bowl blank because I am waiting for parts on my bandsaw.

But back to your saw. I had some rust on mine too. It came on a boat from Italy, so I am not surprised, although I have to wonder what they do to protect them besides dipping them in cosmoline. As long as it is not pitted or damaged structurally, I am not going to squawk about that.

The table should be flat. There is no excuse or reason for a table on a saw of this caliber not being flat. There are four leveling bolts underneath the saw, and I was told to use them to make the thing flat. My understanding is that the intended use of these bolts is to get it level and square to the blade, but apparently they are also used for pulling slight defects out of the table. I spent about four hours on mine before I decided that it was not going to be possible to get it flat and square using that method.

The parts that were missing were not a lot - two to be exact. According to the person with whom I spoke, there is supposed to be a long collar and a bolt for the purpose of reversing the lower blade guide bracket. They were not there, and I had to overcome his incredulity that they weren't. He was simply amazed that they were not there. What really blew my stack was when they were supposed to be sent out, and after a whole week went by, I discovered that they were sitting on a desk in TX. Then, to mollify me and make up for the problem, they were sent out overnight. When the wrong bolt arrived, it just made things worse. Now, when I say wrong bolt, I mean a bolt that was very obviously too fat to fit through the collar, and too short even if it did! How hard is it to get this right? And then he blamed another person who I already know is competent in doing his job.

But if you persist, and talk to the right people you will get it resolved. Good luck with it.

Bill

[Terry Hatfield]

Hi Terry

Hopefully it is not all that bad. On the authority of the tech guy, I paid to have the table reground locally, and then submitted the invoice to the company. They did not make me pay for a new table. Truth be told, I was happier getting the one I have ground flat, since there would be no guarantee that a replacement would be any better.

Bill

Ah....I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

This will probably get me in trouble but personally, I'll stick to Grizzly.

Hope everything works out for you.

t

[Bill Grumbine]

6. I think that these forums are usefull when, as you have done, folks can be more objective ( you did do a little ranting by your own admission ) about their tools. After this and other posts would I NOT buy a mm? It would cause me to take a very good look at their tools and not just follow the crowd.

best wishes
respectfully
lou

Hi Lou

I have three Mini Max machines based on the opinions of people who have owned them and are using them who I know personally, not just recommendations from the web. Opinions on customer service vary widely among that group, but the overall assessment of the machines themselves was that they are very high quality machines, and I tend to agree with that. But, a machine is only as good as the service behind it, and that has been wildly erratic in my case. In another post here, I cite some very competent people at MM by name. These are good guys who know their job and have done very well. The one I have had trouble with, I have had trouble with since December of last year, and on multiple occasions. I discussed these issues privately with the owner via email and in person. It does not seem to have helped any.

I bought this particular saw because I am a turner, and I do a lot of sawing of big rough bowl blanks. I have many students coming to my shop from all over the US, and I wanted a saw that would perform reliably. If somone hops on a plane to come and see me, they are spending a lot of money to do so, and I cannot be sitting here with no saw because someone let me down at the source. I do not expect instant or magic fixes, but I do expect people to do what they say. I even expect that there will be times when they fail to do what they say through circumstances beyond their control, misunderstanding, or just plain stupidity. I am in that category myself sometimes. I do not expect that failure to be more often than not though, and I certainly do not expect that satisfactory performance should be something of a rarity on the part of a particular person. This is not the government here.

As far as following the crowd, most people at my level of turning have a Oneway. I have a Poolewood, just because I didn't want to follow the crowd. As I am sitting here writing this, I am thinking of my business associate and friend who produced my turning DVD. He just upgraded his bandsaw too, to a big Grizzly. He spent a lot less money than I did, but I justified my expense based on past experience with Grizzly in the customer service department, reasoning that I was paying extra so I wouldn't be jerked around if I had a problem. The saw seems to be right as of now, but I don't need the stress and the aggravation of having to be a pest to get it that way. At least with Grizzly I am in driving distance to get in someone's face personally if need be, and when I get in someone's face, it is an experience they remember for a very long time, even when I am polite about it (and of course I am always polite!).

I think you are right, there are two issues here, QC in Italy and management in TX. I do not have any answers for either - well, I do, but no one is going to listen to me. ;)

Bill

[Chris Rosenberger]

Lou

I have stayed on the side lines of this thread, other than sending some PM's.
I own a Mini Max Bandsaw. I have had it 1 month. I purchased it before I found this site. Before this years Indy Woodworking Show I had not seen or read about a Mini Max bandsaw, that I could remember. After seeing the MM & comparing it to other saws at this show & other shows, it was clear to me it was the heaviest built & safest saw I had seen. Before I saw the MM I had been leaning toward the Laguna. I had spent alot of time at this years show talking with the Laguna rep. I had not seen the MM until the second day.
I had been thinking about getting a larger bandsaw for several years.I had spent hours watching demos at woodworking shows. I just could not justify the cost. After all I was getting by with my 2hp 14" Delta with a riser & 3/4" blade for resawing. It did what I asked it to do, even though some jobs were pushing it's capabilities. Then one day a friend brought in an 8ft long piece of 6x6 cedar that he wanted cut into boards. I the process of cutting it we just about upset the saw. I decided that day I had to get a bigger saw for safety. I got on the internet & started looking at saws. I spent hours looking at saws & calling about them. I kept comming back to the MM because of the way it was built & the safety features.
The blade guard on the MM completely covers the blade between the saw case & the upper guides. It has saftey switches on both doors, that do not allow the saw to run with the doors open. There is also a safety switch on the brake pedal, that turns the saw off if the pedal is pushed. It also has a 15" + resaw capacity.
The saw was delivered 5 days after I ordered it. I had the same problem with the lower guides as Bill did. My problem was handled much better. I sent an email to my salesman Sam Blasco on a Saturday, he replied on Sunday & I had parts by the end of next week. My table is not perfectly flat, but not as bad as Bill's & it does not effect the cut.
I had never thought of using a carbide tipped blade on a bandsaw before I got this saw. If the carbide blade had not come with the saw, I still would not be using one. After making the first resaw cut with the carbide blade I decided I would never go back to a steel blade, just as I would not go back to a steel blade on a tablesaw.
I am sorry this is so long. I just wanted to show that not everyone follows the leader & not everyone has problems with Mini Max customer service.

Chris

[Jay Knepper]

My Laguna LT16 bandsaw saw was woefully inadequite as delivered. It was really a kit, and one without the correct pieces. But after initial complaints that got me proper parts and some guidance the saw was working OK. Not great, but OK. (It vibrated too much). Ultimately the company called me over a year after purchase to check up on my satisfaction. They ended up sending me a balanced top wheel which pretty much solved the last significant problem with the saw. (But I sweated bullets getting the old wheel off and the new one on.)

It's as if these companies have bipolar personalities or corporate mood swings. You can find people who are fully delighted with Laguna and MiniMax, others that hate them, and some like me who have seen both ends of the same outfit.
One thing that is clear is that there is nobody the quality of, say, Lee Valley Tools marketing larger bandsaws.

[John Shuk]

My Laguna LT16 bandsaw saw was woefully inadequite as delivered. It was really a kit, and one without the correct pieces. But after initial complaints that got me proper parts and some guidance the saw was working OK. Not great, but OK. (It vibrated too much). Ultimately the company called me over a year after purchase to check up on my satisfaction. They ended up sending me a balanced top wheel which pretty much solved the last significant problem with the saw. (But I sweated bullets getting the old wheel off and the new one on.)

It's as if these companies have bipolar personalities or corporate mood swings. You can find people who are fully delighted with Laguna and MiniMax, others that hate them, and some like me who have seen both ends of the same outfit.
One thing that is clear is that there is nobody the quality of, say, Lee Valley Tools marketing larger bandsaws.
Jay,
I agree with the bipolar reference. They know I'm unhappy I've spoken to alot of the reps there and voiced my problems. The tech support guys DO NOT follow through. I've called and tried to get Torben on the phone to no avail. They had someone else call me back. They called me and complained when I stated mmy case on their message board though. They never said I wasn't being honest or fair they just asked me to keep my issues private. I have a Laguna bandsaw and when asked I most often recommend the Big Delta these days. That should speak for itself. Sorry Bill. I know this is your thread but now I'm hopping mad again since I got to thinking about this thing. I think this sort of leads me to say that I will never buy a Laguna or Mini-Max or similarly marketed tool. Not because people can't get good quality tools but because if there is an issue I want a local guy whose doorstep I can show up at.

[lou sansone]

gentleman

IRT some of the responses that I have gotten from my post, I think that you have misunderstood me. Without being wordy, let me make the following points

1. I think that frank discussion about problems with a tool are good for the consumer. That is what I believe is happening here. I applaud your honesty. .

2. There are problems with both MM and Laguna IRT service after the sale in SOME cases. Not all, but some cases. But I think that is true for many things we buy and so it is just part of the world we live in.

3. I was not trying to imply that those here @ SMC are just following the crowd. It was not worded very well. I am sorry for any offence. What I intended to say, is that since at least 3 of you have indicated you have had almost identical problems with your saws and a couple have also had "service after the sale" problems, I personally would really have to take a look at their tools without smuggling in other peoples opinons ( either good or bad ). I say this with the thought that reputations are not made overnight and I would have to think that in general the MM line of saws has a very good reputation. The problems here may simply be an isolated case due to one production run of castings and nothing more. In the case of poor service, that may also work its self out by having that particular individual shown the door.

best wishes
lou

[Richard Wolf]

Bill, I'm just wondering why this discussion is not also posted on th MM forum?

Richard

[Bill Grumbine]

Bill, I'm just wondering why this discussion is not also posted on th MM forum?

Richard

Hi Richard

I am thinking about it, but I do not know that it will do anything but sic the sycophants on me - i.e. those who thing that MM has never done wrong, does no wrong, will do no wrong. I posted here mainly because there were some SMC members present when I took delivery of the saw and I wanted to say something about it. I had an email exchange and a long conversation with Jim Strain earlier about the person who is making my life miserable, and was assured that it was all cleared up, it would never happen again, blah blah blah. As far as I am concerned, this guy should be kicked right off the planet, but I don't think it is going to happen. Additionally, I have had SO many problems with one particular individual that I am concerned that it will look like I've got it out for him. I don't, but it is getting harder and harder to write that with each episode of stupidity. I keep hearing about how he is a real whiz when it comes to these machines, but I have yet to see any evidence.

Bill

[John Hart]

Because the discussions on SMC are so civil and engaging, maybe it would be a good idea to send a link of this thread to the Sales Staff or Marketing Manager of MM? The Sales people would be the most interested because problems interfere with their ability to sell. Maybe the word would get around within the organization.

...then again...maybe not :confused:

[Richard Wolf]

Hi Richard

I am thinking about it, but I do not know that it will do anything but sic the sycophants on me - i.e. those who thing that MM has never done wrong, does no wrong, will do no wrong.

Bill

Bill, I know just what you mean. I feel bad that you are having such a difficult time with machinery purchases and dealing with incompendence lately. I honestly believe that as the economy rises and unemployment falls more people have jobs that they shouldn't have. This is how all the ugly words like incompendence, arrogance, rudeness, poor workmanship, poor customer relations and all the rest that makes for unpleasant experiences.
I own two MM machines and have had good experiences with them and find it hard to understand that Jim Strain has let this situation get to this point. Why would he not let you deal with someone else? There was a tread on the MM forum of someone else picking up a bandsaw at a show and had a situation of alot of rust hidden on the machine and while he stopped posting on the forum I do think he had a hard time getting the results he want also. I hope this is not a indication of the future direction of MM, because I for one will have alot of egg on my face for singing high praises for them.

I wish you luck with all of this and while I personally don't know you, I have admired you from afar in the way you seem to run your life and your business. I have a perceptive eye for reading into people's post, web sites and treads and am sure this run of bad luck is not warrented.

Richard

[glenn bradley]

"I have to wonder, am I turning into a curmudgeon? Are my expectations of competence unreasonably high? "

I sure hope not. Some tools you just buy and use and they're just as they should be. I, like you do not understand why the companies that make these tools can't make them right or package them right or support them correctly with a degree of consistency. One post is that (insert manufacturer here) rocks, the next that they stink.

I'd feel better if you could just trust the quality of a product based on the maker but, that is of a time gone by. Here again is another value of this forum and the selfless participants. We share our joy and pain in tool purchases and hopefully take a hit and share so our fellow Creekers won't have to. ;-)

[Jason Roehl]

It's AAAALLLIIIIIIVVVVVE....

A little bit of thread resurrection here, eh? :D