Grizzly G0490 Modifications/Improvements?

[Bill Space]

Hi,

I received a new Grizzly G4090X jointer last week and made a couple modifications which are (in my mind anyway :) ) improvements which I thought I would share.

Perhaps others have also done something they might add to this thread.

When reading reviews posted on line by others who purchased this jointer I noticed some complaints about the way the control panel red light operates,

First thing I did is a simple modification that causes the Red Lamp that is in the Stop PB to come on when the stop PB is released. This way the light indicates that the circuit is energized and motor is ready to start. (The red light being on when the motor starter circuit is DE-energized is counter-intuitive to my brain). The fix was simply lifting one wire off one terminal and putting it on a different terminal on the back of start PB contact block.

I will try to attach a photo showing what was done. Not having much luck this morning, having lost what I typed here for the second time this morning!

Anyway, as it sits now both lights on the control panel stay out until I release the stop PB. At that time the red light comes on. When I push the start PB the green light comes on and the motor runs. When I push the stop PB both lights go out until I release the stop PB when I want to start the motor the next time.

I think having the red lamp on when the motor is running might help me find it more quickly if I have an emergency need...I will try to attach a picture:

(I will also try to see how to recover what is saved after "auto save" flag appears)

Looks like I managed to add the image.

Bill


250847

[Bill Space]

Hi again,

The other thing I did was add a simple adjustment feature to make motor positioning and belt tensioning an easier task. I will try to post some pictures this evening or sooner if I can.

Bill

[Dick Holt]

I have the Shop Fox W1741 which is the same as the Griz.
The dust collection was terrible until I took a piece of sheet metal and closed off the top of the dust chute with it. Works great now. I also replaced the stock blades with Dispoz-a-blade system. Makes blade changes a snap.
Dick

[Wade Lippman]

I have the Shop Fox W1741 which is the same as the Griz.
The dust collection was terrible until I took a piece of sheet metal and closed off the top of the dust chute with it. Works great now. I also replaced the stock blades with Dispoz-a-blade system. Makes blade changes a snap.
Dick
Have they fixed that? I am right now assembling a 0490X and the top of the dust chute looks to be closed. Or am I not understanding the issue?

BTW: they require a lift truck to put the table on the base. I don't have a lift truck. I don't think I could even get one in my basement. What to do?

No, that's not it... my wife and son are as good as a lift truck. My real issue is two set screws left over after assembly. There were two in the box with the pulleys and another two in the hardware bag. I don't see any use for the second two. Did I not do something?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

IIRC...the early G0490's required the DC modifications.....the later ones and the G0490X have already had the change installed.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

It may be a matter of personal preference but I would suggest the factory wiring where the red light comes on when the OFF switch is depressed will indicate why the On switch/button isn't having any effect. It's in the Red or Stop mode.

Bill,

A little research led me to the NFPA 79 regulations for industrial equipments which according to the source, requires that lighted switches must have a red light indication for "Off"......and a Green light for an "On or start" condition. I worked with large scale electronics for over 40 years and knew the standard I saw was red is off and green is on and wondered if it was a requirement. Apparently it is.

[Bill Space]

Ken,

Like you say it may be a matter of personal preference. I am not up to date on the NFPA regulations/recommendations. I have worked in in heavy industry on the electrical side for about thirty years. For example, in power distribution, RED means a circuit breaker is closed, and GREEN means it is open. Also when no lights are used, Red buttons are STOP buttons and Green are START buttons. So from my background experience, a light going out when a circuit is set to be energized seems backwards. Gut feeling if nothing else. But like you said, to each his own, at least in the home shop.

The other undesirable thing for me with the Grizzly setup is that the red lamp was lit all the time the power plug was plugged in. I don't know about others, but I don't unplug all the tools in my shop each time I leave... I have read comments from others who felt the light going out when the machine is set to start seemed backwards to them as well. In any event, for anyone who prefers the red light to come on when the machine is set to start, and to go out when the machine is in more of a safe mode, it is not difficult to make this happen. Just wanted to point this out to others who might like to make this change since it is accomplished so simply.

Actually, I think the modification I suggested does do what you indicate the NFPA suggests, that is, the red light does come on when the machine is stopped and ready to start. The thing that does not happen is that the red light does not go out when the machine is running (both lights being on). It would be a more difficult circuit change to make the red light go out. There could be a unused contact in the starter portion of the control that could make that happen, but I have not looked at it and will not bother, as I can see an advantage to having the lighted red PB in the event I need to find it quickly (at least no disadvantage).

Hope that information is of help to whoever might like to make that change.

When I get to my other computer I will post that other "improvement" I made that allows adjustment of motor position and belt tension without much grief...sure beats using a bottle jack to hold up the motor!

Bill

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bill,

The regulation as I read it says that a red switch is used to turn off devices and if the it is a lighted indicator switch the red light indicates power is off.

As I read it, a green switch is used to turn power on and if it is a lighted indicator switch a green light indicates it is ready to start OR is ON.

All manufacturers have to meet NFPA regulations to sell equipment. I assure you that switch is wired to meet NFPA regulations. It's not an arbitrary thing.

The Off switch isn't a momentary switch so that if you shut power off using that switch, it can't come back on accidentally. The red light indicates the off switch is engaged. The light is lit and you know power is applied to the jointer. This is an added safety measure. If you don't want to see red light, rotate the switch button to disengage it. The light is out and the machine still isn't on.

I don't see any advantage to rewiring the switch but it's your jointer, you can do what you want.

[Bill Space]

The regulation as I read it says that a red switch is used to turn off devices and if the it is a lighted indicator switch the red light indicates power is off.



Ken, I think that is the point I am trying to make. Before starting the jointer, the illuminated red stop PB must be turned to release the PB. When this is done, the red light goes out. The green light is also out because the machine has not been started yet. So the machine is sitting there ready to start, with the red light out. Nothing changed except power has been applied to the control circuit. Power is not applied to the motor.

At this point, by your interpretation of the NFPA, in this state the red light should be on (machine is not running, so power must be off). Your interpretation makes sense to me (but does it mean off and ready to start, or just off ?). The G4090 indicator light as it comes from the factory only indicates that power is available to the machine. When the machine is in the state to be started, the red light is out. So the red light may not be doing what the NFPA says it should do, that is, tell you the machine is stopped (and able to start). An unknowing person could come to the machine, think there was no power available, and push the start button and get a big surprise.

I am not sure if you have this model jointer yourself, so you may not be aware of how the stop PB works on this machine.

It is like this:

Machine stopped and red PB pushed in and lock in, RED Light is ON

Red Stop PB is twisted to release it, RED light goes out (No lights on, but machine is set to start)

Green PB is pushed and the machine starts and the Green light goes ON.

Red Stop PB is pushed and the machine stops. The red PB locks in the pushed position, and the red light comes on.

As the machine comes from Grizzly the only time the jointer motor will start is when the Red Light is OFF. At that point one cannot know if power is available to start the machine or not.

So I guess the question is: By the NFPA, RED ON means power is off to What? To the Motor? Or two the control circuit? Or to the machine itself? The Grizzly set up tells you there is power to the machine, not that the motor is set to start or that the motor is running. The way I rewired mine, the red light tells you there is power to the control circuit and that the motor WILL start if the green PB is pushed. Generally one needs to know when a potential danger exists, I.E., that if start PB is pushed the motor is going to start. I think that may be the intent of the NFPA regulation. My suspicion is that Grizzly may not have gotten it right, just like they did not get the power cord right, when they used a white and black wire for the hook up to 220 VAC (should be black-black or black-red).

In any event, it is nice to talk through these things. Whatever makes the most sense to each individual in the home shop is probably best, if it helps that person avoid an unexpected machine start up.

I believe to make the indicator lights work properly according the the NFPA, the red light should be on to indicate the machine is ready to start, and that when started the green light should be on and the red light should go out. Like I mentioned in the previous post, I did not feel that in my case the red light being on when the machine is running would be a detriment to me personally...For me, I gained by making this simple circuit change...I would not change it back, but would make the red light go out when the motor is running if I thought that would benefit me.

Bill

[Chris Barnett]

The set screws might be for the motor pulley. I had terrible vibration [shudder] problems with mine when I pushed stop; Grizzly CS said the set screws might be loose. They cautioned me that they are stacked, one on top of the other, to lock the inner screws in place.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bill,


Manufacturers have to meet the NFPA regulations to legally sell equipment in this country.

The way I read the chart, an off or Emergency off switch has to be red and if equiped with an indicator light, the light must be red in color indicating the machine is not operating.

To me it read that the on switch button was green and if equiped with an indicator light, green indicated ready to start or On.

Personally, I think it's safer as it arrived from Grizzly. The red light tells me the machine is off, the cutterhead isn't moving and yet power still applied to the machine and it's controls circuits. The same light serves as a visual reminder why the machine doesn't start when I push the Green "On" button. I use the reminder more I often than I care to admit.


On another topic, if I may. I really like my G0490X! It's worked well for me. One thing you might consider as you set it up. Remove the set screws on the motor pulleys, cutterhead pulleys etc...use a little small thread blue loctite type thread locker (removeable locktite) and reinstall the set screws. While there are a lot of happy G0490X users here, some have had problems with set screws loosening up and backing out shortly after being pressed into use. I took the time while I set mine up and I haven't had a problem yet. I suspect vibration during shipment causes these to loosen.

I really don't want to be confrontational

It's your jointer, do what you want.

[Bill Space]

Chris,

I had a bit of vibration problem too. But that was on shutdown, when the centrifugal switch dropped out I think. Actually while running too, but it reduced a lot after running the machine a couple hours unloaded, just spinning the cutter head in the air (under the guard, naturally).

Also had some set in the serpentine belt that I think was causing some vibration, but not much now that I set the belt tension better. Also, putting the adjusting feet lower, at the end where the foot lift thing is located helped a lot. Low enough that the drop when the that foot lift thing is released is not a bang, but just a little bump. I still sense a little vibration, but can put four nickles on the tables, one at each end and one on each side of the cutter head, and for the most part they will stay upright from start to stop. Must be careful when pushing the stop PB though, or doing so will cause them to fall...

I found that I was unable to adjust belt tension properly, and installed a simple adjustment mechanism (sounds complicated - mechanism - but it is not). I will post details and pictures in this thread probably tomorrow at this rate... )

While it is probably not advisable, I carefully increased and decreased belt tension while the motor was running to find a sweet spot. I could only do this because I could put a wrench on an adjustment nut and keep my fingers and other body parts well clear of the belt.

I was surprised that the significant shudder on shutdown reduced to merely a click. And the vibration while running reduced as well.

Bill

[Bill Space]

I don't mean to be debating this...but just to be clear...

"The red light tells me the machine is off, the cutterhead isn't moving and yet power still applied to the machine and it's controls circuits. The same light serves as a visual reminder why the machine doesn't start when I push the Green "On" button. I use the reminder more I often than I care to admit."

How does the red light tell you this?

As shipped, when the G4090 red light is on power is NOT applied to the control circuits. It is only applied to one side of the Stop PB. Power is applied to the control circuitry when the stop PB is released and the red light goes out. I do see what you are saying, but as rewired my red light is ON when the machine is not running too. But I see the red light as saying "DANGER" while you may see the red light as saying "Turn the power on".

But like you said previously, whatever works for the individual (and makes operation of the machine as safe as possible for that person) is what is best. I am not promoting anyone change anything. But did want to point out this simple change to those who, like me, do not intuitively see Grizzly's scheme as the best way to accomplish the goal. I had read others comments about this before purchasing my machine, and I guess that planted the seed... Having the red light go out when the control circuitry is energized does not work in my mind or agree with my 30 plus years experience in heavy industry, working both as an electrician and an engineer.

In the end, what works best to keep us aware of our surroundings, and dangers present, is what is important. I am sure we can both agree on that (and probably most other things too).

Bill

PS..Ken, I too really like this jointer and think it is a REALLY good value. I got the spiral cutter head and really am impressed with it. After a little adjustment to the tables it cuts smooth and flat. Actually, I get a little suction under the board on the exit table. Someone had mentioned this and I forgot about it. I was surprised when I experienced it. Sure beats my old 6" Craftsman! The fence on the Grizzly is the same length as the whole old jointer... What a difference!!!!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bill,

If the light is lit, obviously there is power applied to the control circuits Sir. The lamp is part of the control circuit. It is meant to indicate the machine is not running and also indicates power is applied to it.

I refer you to this Sir to this site for an explanation of indicator light colors with respect to switches used on industrial equipment. http://www.iprocessmart.com/techsmart/lightcodes.htm

Red indicates an master off or emergency off switch has power turned off. Green indicates start or on of one or more motors or start of energization of machine elements.

In the case of the Emergency Off as on our G0490X's the machine emergency off shall not depend on illumination of it's light (if a bulb burns out, it still has to work!). The NFPA 79 also requires that Emergency stops have to be reset before power can be reapplied to the machine. That's why you have to rotate the red button CW to release and reset the Emergency Off switch. The light goes out and then pushing the Green start/on switch will turn on power to the motor.

From what I read, apparently at one time, a red light did indicate a motor was on and a green light indicated that a motor was off or de-energized.

[Bill Space]

Well it has taken me longer than I expected, but if all goes well several pictures will be attached to this post.

I made simple brackets which on the pulley side of the motor provide down pressure for belt tightening, and on the fan side of the motor hold it in an adjustable position. When making adjustments to the motor position (angular and horizontal position, all four motor mounting rail bolts need to be loose. The belt holds the pulley end of the motor, but the fan end wants to fall unless supported by something. I used a bottle jack to do this but found it cumbersome. I was not able to easily adjust the belt tension so I came up with this idea. Works really well!

Here goes my attempt to attach pictures. I hope the pictures will be clear enough. I did add some notes to them...

Oh, almost forgot. How do you guys align your pulleys? I made a simple tool that worked well for me. I checked the flatness of the edge that contacts the pulleys, using the jointer table, then cut a slot in the melamine covered particle board so it could slip over the edge of the motor base...

Bill251149251150251151

[Bill Space]

Ken,

I enjoy friendly discussions of details such as this (not sure if anyone else is interested) and only have limited time this evening, but would like to mention one thing...

If the light is lit, obviously there is power applied to the control circuits Sir. The lamp is part of the control circuit. It is meant to indicate the machine is not running and also indicates power is applied to it.

Actually, as shipped from Grizzly, the red lamp is not really part of the control circuit, because it is tied to the voltage that comes from the power mains, through a contact on the push-button contact-block assembly that does nothing other than control the light. It really only tells you that the jointer is plugged in. You could cut that wire feeding the light and the control circuit would function normally. The only thing that would not work would be the lamp that illuminates the red push button. The control circuit is not enabled until the E-Stop function of the red PB is released by turning the push button clockwise.

In the circuit, as I modified it, the lamp could be considered part of the control circuit, because it is connected in the circuit after the stop PB contacts and before the start PB contacts. It would indicate power is applied to the control circuit, which IS meaningful information.

The major shortcoming with the G0490 jointer, in my estimation, is that should one approach the jointer, as shipped by Grizzly, and see no lights illuminated, he could assume that the jointer was unplugged. But the reality could be that the control circuitry would be energized and read to start the motor if the start PB was accidentally pushed.

The circuit as I modified it eliminates the possibility for this confusion to occur (provided that the light which illuminates the red PG is not burnt out) because the red light comes ON when the control circuit is energized, and remains out when the control circuit is DE-energized. So if someone approaches my jointer, and no push buttons are illuminated, the potential for injury is reduced, because if he accidentally pushes the start button the motor will not start.

And, if for some reason the red PB were released on my jointer, the red PB would be illuminated, giving some warning, a warning which does not exist with the jointer as delivered by Grizzly.

I did review the chart you referenced in your previous post. I also got interested and reviewed the NFPA document that this chart is based on. Have to wait to comment on that as time at the keyboard has run out for me this evening.

Bill

[Bill Space]

I think it is fixed. On mine, which I just received a week or so ago, I could find nothing but little slits that could be sealed but probably make no difference.

Also, test cuts dump the shavings on the floor very nicely. Dust collector not hooked up yet. So I guess there is no problem now...

In case this post is not inserted after the one I am replying to, it refers to ducting for dust collection in the G0490 jointer...

Bill

[Bill Space]

Sorry, somehow I got the images mixed in with the text! :eek:

This may be a double post, but I think the original got lost because I replied deep in a sub thread. This info could be of interest to those bored by the sub thread...so here it goes a second time. Moderator please delete the other one if you think it should be deleted. Being new here I don't know how things go...251182251183251184
Well it has taken me longer than I expected, but if all goes well several pictures will be attached to this post.

I made simple brackets which on the pulley side of the motor provide down pressure for belt tightening, and on the fan side of the motor hold it in an adjustable position. When making adjustments to the motor position (angular and horizontal position, all four motor mounting rail bolts need to be loose. The belt holds the pulley end of the motor, but the fan end wants to fall unless supported by something. I used a bottle jack to do this but found it cumbersome. I was not able to easily adjust the belt tension so I came up with this idea. Works really well!

Here goes my attempt to attach pictures. I hope the pictures will be clear enough. I did add some notes to them...

Oh, almost forgot. How do you guys align your pulleys? I made a simple tool that worked well for me. I checked the flatness of the edge that contacts the pulleys, using the jointer table, then cut a slot in the melamine covered particle board so it could slip over the edge of the motor base...

[Todd Brewer]

Mine shutters like crazy when I shut it down. Don't recall any extra parts, but good to know it's not just my machine. I will try some of the suggestions. Thanks.

I don't remember when the red light lights and when it doesn't, all I know is if the machine is running and I want it to stop I press the red button, lit or not. :)

[glenn bradley]

I don't mean to be debating this...but just to be clear...


Bill,

If the light is lit, obviously there is power applied to the control circuits

Hmmm, this discussion is not likely to see an end as Bill's logic is reversed from industry standard. I know people, who after years, still feel that they ought to have their fence on the left side of the blade for "regular" use of their tablesaw. Some people mount their router table extensions in a way that make them feed material in the opposite direction of the tablesaw to which it is mounted. Some folks just see things differently. Its like the hidden picture that one person can find instantly while another struggles and finally gives up. What looks or feels 'right' is different than the crowd, no harm no foul. If Bill wants his "circuit energized" indicator wired in reverse, rock on. Just don't expect the majority of the people to see or think about things that way ;).

[Bill Space]

Glenn,


Rather than opinion, could you kindly supply a reference showing that “Bill’s logic is reversed from industry standard”?


I know this is a dead horse that we don’t want to beat much longer.


I have pointed out about how the Indicator light scheme on the G0490 as shipped offers potential for confusion and possible injury, and how the circuit modification I suggested helps avoid such confusion. There has been no dispute of that statement.



I did not get a chance to refer to NFPA 79 specifics previously, but will now give some specifics regarding industry standards for anyone who may be interested. .


The Chart that Ken referred to is a summary of NFPA Rules found in NFPA 79 Chapter 10, Operator Interface and Control Devices. I went to the “horse’s mouth” to view the document directly.


Table 10.3.2 addresses Indicator Lights and Icons used for three purposes: Safety of Persons or Environment, Condition of Process, and State of Equipment.


A RED light is to indicate either DANGER, EMERGENCY or FAULTY condition of equipment. The Grizzly RED light indicates that power is applied to the jointer unit, and it goes out when the e-stop is released. It DOES NOT follow NFFPA 79 standards.


A GREEN light is to indicate either: SAFE, NORMAL, or NORMAL state of Equipment. The Grizzly GREEN light DOES NOT follow NFPA 79 because it comes on when the motor is running, which is not a SAFE state.


Paragraph 10.4, Illuminated Pushbuttons, specifically calls for illuminated pushbuttons to follow the color coding specified in Table 10.3.2 cited above.

I agree that we may use whatever lighting scheme we want with our jointers. But I would advise others to follow NFPA 79 standards. Read them for yourself rather than trust the opinion of others, myself included!


Ken, after checking the NFPA 79, I believe your interpretation is in error. I believe the summary chart you referred us to essentially says some of what the specific NFPA 79 document says, but not in as much detail.


I made it a point to check out indicator lights when passing through different parts of out plant yesterday and today. Green lamps were on when equipment was stopped but ready to start. Red lamps were on (and green out) when the equipment was running, both as the NFPA 79 states.


So what’s the result of this discussion for me? I will probably change the lighting scheme on my jointer further, to follow NFPA 79. That is:



* No lamps will be illuminated when the machine is plugged in and the ESTOP button is locked

* When the E-Stop BP is released the Green lamp will turn on

* When the motor is started, the green light will go out and the red light will come on.


I am not sure if accomplishing this will require adding an additional relay to the circuit or not.


I will be sure to post an update if I do make these modifications!


(JUST JOKING about the future post)

We beat this dead horse enough, now time to bury it… I will give the last word to whomever may wish to use it...


Bill

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bill,

While you claim to find the original configuration confusing, many other owners don't , but rather recognize it for it's intended design purpose and don't feel the need to redesign it.

It is convenient of you to casually disregard the summary to I which I referred as it quite plainly and simply points out the error in your opinion.

I think your interpretation is grossly incorrect.

I would recommend to any reader that you contact the manufacturer if you have any questions about how something should be wired. Manufacturers have to meet nationally and internationally recognized standards and while they do occasionally make mistakes, it is not as often as some would like believe.

In my humble opinion it is imprudent to publicly recommend unauthorized, non-certified wiring changes to a machine especially during a warranty period.

I would also caution readers about making unauthorized modifications to machines during warranty periods as it could give manufacturers reason to make consumer warranty claims much more difficult.

This debate really has devalued this thread and I would suggest Bill that any further comments be taken off line. I am sure a lot of readers are sitting here laughing at the two of us, eating popcorn and asking "when will the gasoline and matches come out?"

Bill, let's just agree, that we won't agree on this subject.