Bow saw advice?

[Michael Ray Smith]

I've become curious about bow saws, and I just bought the Gramercy hardware to make one. For my first one, I thought I'd stick pretty close to the Gramercy plans, following the recommendation to use hickory. But first, does anyone have any tips or advice that might not be obvious? Or even if it is -- I've been known to overlook the obvious before. Is there a better choice than hickory?

Second, assuming this effort goes okay, I think I might try a larger saw with a wider blade suitable for ripping. But I'm not sure where to get a blade that would work. And I don't really relish the idea of cutting up the plate from an old handsaw ripper.

Thanks.

[eric mah]

It's a nice kit. I built one a couple years back. My only advice is not to over tighten the string. There is a lot of tension on the ends and they could break. Don't ask how I know this.

[Lloyd Robins]

You might look at Woodjoy ( http://shop.woodjoytools.com/category.sc;jsessionid=76C80869928ABE932F07E3EAD91 D08AE.qscstrfrnt02?categoryId=10 ) and Highland ( http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/bow-saw-frame-saws-blades.aspx ). Quality bow saw blades for larger bow saws seem to be few and far between right now. It is kind of like western back saws a few years ago. There are several people who will hopefully chime in with instructions on how to make your own. Bow saws are fun to work with, so good luck. (I love my Gramercy bow saw.)

[Chris Griggs]

Its a very nice kit and plan indeed. Surprisingly simple to make too. Mine is made out of pacific yew. I made another for a friend out of white oak. I've seen ones posted here in pear, in walnut, and in maple. Hickory is structurally probably the best choice, but there are any number of options.

[Adam Cherubini]

My advice:
Tho Joel vehemently defends hickory, it's atraditional and a poor choice for this application. These frames see bending (shear parallel to the long grain) and need cross grain properties. Marples made similar saws out of beech, which has fantastic x-grain properties. I think beech has the BEST x-grain properties of any domestic hardwood which makes it excellent for lots of tool related applications. Either maple or cherry would be good choices, attractive and strong. Several builders have reported cracking their finely made bow saw frames. Joel very carefully makes his and doesn't have problems. It could also be user error either in over tightening or in poor wood choice or frame shaping (removing too many long fibers).

I don't recommend using bow saws for ripping beyond tenons. 18" blades used to be available from highland hardware and may still be. I used one of these for several years as a tenon saw. They work just fine and offer a few performance advantages over back saws. Just fix the blade in the frame. I simply slit the lower arms and used a wrought nail to hold the blade.

[Tony Shea]

I've made one from this kit out of Pear wood and have had zero issue's with breakage. I don't see any obvious signs of breakage in the near future either and am happy with its' performance, in terms of the wood. My one complaint is the straight blade pins. They seem to rotate while in use too easily no matter how tight you get the tension. I think a tapered pin would be ideal for this application and believe they are offered by someone online. Just do a search if interested as I don't remember exactly where. I think this small change would make a huge difference in ease of use. But the saw is really a nice saw once you learn to deal with this issue in use.

[Michael Ray Smith]

Thank you, gentlepersons. As someone just trying to learn the basics of working wood with handtools, I'm grateful that so many experienced craftsmen and artisans are so generous with their advice. I don't take it for granted.

[Mark Dorman]

You can check out how Steve Branam did it here. http://www.closegrain.com/2010/06/building-gramercy-bow-saw.html?m=1 It's a good read with lots of tips.

[Tony Wilkins]

I'm looking forward to making one the one that Bill Anderson built on The Woodwright's Shop last season. He sells the pins and I believe he'll send the plans with them. Beautiful tool that looks well thought out. If I hadn't seen that one, I was seriously considering one from Chester Tool Works.

[Adam Cherubini]

Tony, try putting a rubber o-ring over the near pin, so that it's trapped between handle and frame to increase friction there.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

That's similar to what I did - I put a rubber washer over the pin and it helps tremendously with keeping down unwanted rotation. I can still see how the tapered pins that Bill Anderson sells would be helpful, though.

The other thing that helps is drilling your holes cleanly and sized right. I used an auger bit that drills just undersized enough that the pin fits in the hole with some friction. Another 1/4" bit I have drills a hole with more clearance, and left things a little too loose feeling.

The difference between these two holes was astounding, although eventually I'm sure the slightly tighter hole will work a bit looser, (Which again is where the tapered pins would be handy) but I'm not sure I use the saw enough for this to be a problem for a long while. I'll see. I learned the difference as I had to remake one of my arms after it cracked.

The lesson from the cracked arm is that grain orientation really helps, particularly if you want to make the arms lighter and thinner. My original arm was closer to flatsawn wood, and cracked along the grain lines. The new arm feels stouter as I tighten things up.

I need to replace the cord on my saw at some point, and that's another place that feels like it can use some attention - I was using a fairly thick twine with a lot of wraps at first - it works well, but because of the amount of material being twisted around, dialing in the tension is tough - each full twist puts a lot of tension on the arm - with thinner cord, or less wraps, I feel like I get a little less tension with each twist. With so much tension being added with each twist, sometimes I was getting at a point where it was too loose, but adding another twist made it too taught. Not careful there, and the arm snapped.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Made out of yellow birch, before and after the arm replacement. Sort of followed Bill Andersons plans, but used the Gramercy hardware and handles. Still need to pretty it up; there's a lot of final tweaking to do to make it purty, and a fair amount of tool marks to remove. That second arm I knocked out really darn quick, though. Both times, it was a project I knocked out really quick to get back to work, and keep planning on nicing it up. Really nice easy project to put together though. Almost all of it was done with a single saw, a single gouge, and two chisels, a mortise chisel and a 40mm bench chisel.

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[Jason Coen]

I need to replace the cord on my saw at some point, and that's another place that feels like it can use some attention - I was using a fairly thick twine with a lot of wraps at first - it works well, but because of the amount of material being twisted around, dialing in the tension is tough - each full twist puts a lot of tension on the arm - with thinner cord, or less wraps, I feel like I get a little less tension with each twist. With so much tension being added with each twist, sometimes I was getting at a point where it was too loose, but adding another twist made it too taught. Not careful there, and the arm snapped.

I noticed the same thing when I originally strung my saw with thick twine. Didn't like the tension adjustment, so I re-strung it with 80 lb. test Spiderwire. Certainly not traditional in the materials selection department, but traditional enough in the sense that I used what I had on hand that best fit the application. ;)

And Bill's pins are VERY nice. Nice enough that I need to get a set from him and make another saw.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

They're actually cheaper than I thought they were, for some reason. Still more than the Gramercy pins, but I may have to pick up a pair. Of course, I'll have to figure out how to make a nice handle for those.

[Michael Ray Smith]

I noticed the same thing when I originally strung my saw with thick twine. Didn't like the tension adjustment, so I re-strung it with 80 lb. test Spiderwire. Certainly not traditional in the materials selection department, but traditional enough in the sense that I used what I had on hand that best fit the application.

I haven't started mine yet. I'm still taking into consideration all the comments here and deciding whether I'm going to join the pro-hickory or the anti-hickory camp. In meantime, I rounded up a length of hemp cord that I was going to use in the spirit of being traditional. (Of course, the Gramercy hardware and the blades aren't exactly authentic reproductions of 18th century technology anyway, so I don't know why I'm trying to be such a purist on the string!) I'm considering whether to switch to something smaller like braided fishing line or to use the hemp with fewer wrappings. Do you think you'd have the same problem with the one-more-turn-is-not-enough-two-are-too-many problem with only a couple of wrappings of thicker cord? I'm actually not so sure that I want something really strong. Ideally, I suppose, the cord would break just before the arm does.

[Michael Ray Smith]

Here's another application of a Spanish windlass. Note the caution against over-tightening. A common problem, I guess!
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/tips/the-spanish-windlass.aspx

[Bob Glenn]

ECE makes blades. Some suppliers won't sell them unless you purchase their bow saw too. Thebestthings.com sells the blades separatly for about 18 bucks a piece. I just ordered three, a turning saw blade, rip blade and cross cut blade, all 23 inches long. They also selll 27 inch blades.

I've made two bow saws, one out of cherry and the larger one out of maple. No problems so far, but they haven;t been heavily used yet. Also, I just use regular string for the windlass with about ten wraps. Just don't over tighten. Just tighten enough to make it useable. I you're having trouble getting enough tension on the blade, try using it to cut on the pull stroke, they work either way with practice. Also, after use loosen the windlass a couple turns.

[Jason Coen]

Do you think you'd have the same problem with the one-more-turn-is-not-enough-two-are-too-many problem with only a couple of wrappings of thicker cord? I'm actually not so sure that I want something really strong. Ideally, I suppose, the cord would break just before the arm does.

Maybe. Probably depends on the amount of stretch. I'd guess fewer wrappings of a stretchier material would lend itself to a finer adjustment per turn, at least until the cord became wrapped enough to stop stretching. In that instance, I'd guess it would change from a fine adjustment to a coarse one as you're twisting increasingly thick material. Or, that could be completely backwards. :)

Spiderwire has basically zero stretch, and I got noticeably better adjustment once I switched to just a couple loops. It's also a very small diameter line, and so never reached the point where it started to bunch like the much thicker twine did.

Don't over think it, though. Twine and fishing line are cheap. :D

[gorden Waldron]

This is been a good discussion. I have 4 bow saws that I have made. the blades I use are coping saw blades, 12", 24" and a 36" pruning blade. I use them all at different times. The coping saw I added a "wooden collar" that the string/cord goes around and the tensioner goes thru.There is a pin that goes thru the wooden collar that keeps the tensioner from falling out. The tensioner has a groove routed in the center of it so that it can slide back and forth now matter how tight you wind the cord. You can make half turns with it as well. I have seen a lot of bow saws but only one or two with this feature. I plan on adding it to the others ... when I get time Hum075.jpg (http://www.greatplanestrading.com/HUM1/Hum075.jpg)

[Tony Shea]

250785250786 This is my attempt at gramercy's bowsaw kit. As I said it is pear wood, which I think is my favorite working wood (maybe other than apple), and has help up wonderfully. I also recommend using the braided fishing line. I will def be grabbing a rubber o-ring to fit between the handle, surprised I never thought of that. Thanks for the idea. My next bowsaw will be using Bill Anderson's pins and probably plans as I like the idea of the windlass for a finer adjustment of tension. I also just want to try something different for the sake of interest.

[Adam Cherubini]

Michael,

The problem I've had with hemp twine and other thicker strings (including carpenter's string) is that as you twist the whole mess the outer fibers see way more strain than others and the string breaks. Sometimes it takes a while, sometimes it happens immediately. You have to wrap the string on loosely initially. Finer string does seem to work better, especially on shorter saws.

FULL DISCLOSURE: When i started woodworking in earnest, I had no skills, no habits to break. I read FWW, and everything available in the public library. I used japanese zeta saws and got pretty good with them. But I always struggled with ripping straight and quickly (read: poor skills, impossible expectations, and wrong tool for the job, plus no fleet of ww experts on the internet to help=frustration). I switched to bow saws as the solution (thanks to anthony guidice)!! I made many many including the small turning saw I still use. But they too were not the answer FOR ME.

Looking back, I sometimes feel the need to grumble at the FWW authors who wrote glowingly about saws I'm not sure they were actually using. Even Tage Frid I suspect preferred the table saw or band saw to bow saw. His advice to sharpen every saw rip is one piece of advice I'm glad I skipped. None of them knew what I was trying to do and none of them were doing the work I was.

For me, part of the fun of woodworking has always been the exploration. While it's good to be able to ask someone who has, in my case, fed his family using hand saws, I'm not sure it's what is best for you. Not chastising, not telling you not to ask, just a little brotherly advice to do your own exploration regardless of what ever I or anyone else says. I don't want you to grumble at me 20 years from now!

Adam

[Jim Belair]

... The coping saw I added a "wooden collar" that the string/cord goes around and the tensioner goes thru.There is a pin that goes thru the wooden collar that keeps the tensioner from falling out. The tensioner has a groove routed in the center of it so that it can slide back and forth now matter how tight you wind the cord. You can make half turns with it as well. I have seen a lot of bow saws but only one or two with this feature. I plan on adding it to the others ... when I get time Hum075.jpg (http://www.greatplanestrading.com/HUM1/Hum075.jpg)

Mine had a similar feature to allow half turns and fine tuning the tension, like the design shown in the second photo here

http://www.woodwrightschool.com/howarth-bow-saw-with-bill-ande/

[Charles McKinley]

There are post here on the Creek from Bob Smalser on building a bow saw. Bob posted a ton of great how to neander stuff. Search is your friend. Threads started by ......

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

250785250786 This is my attempt at gramercy's bowsaw kit. As I said it is pear wood, which I think is my favorite working wood (maybe other than apple), and has help up wonderfully. .

Purty! Seeing that saw, and the Bill Andersons in the link posted by Jim make me really want to sit down and clean up all the imperfections on mine. Going to have to make some time this afternoon. It works fine, but I feel like I'd like using it more if it looked as nice.

[Chris Griggs]

This thread really makes me want build another bowsaw. Such fun satisfying little projects.

I remember when Tony posted his. It really is one of the nicest I've seen. That curly pear is gorgeous and the shaping is impeccably clean - especially the finger notches that transition into the bottom where the pins are held. That was the one part on mine that I didn't get as criper as I would have liked. I used a rasp to carve those out, it was the last part of the shaping I did and I think I rushed it. Tony did you use a gouge? I imagine that might yield crisper results in that area?

Here's mine in pacific yew, I've posted it before, but what the heck other folks are reposting pics so I will too.... Maybe we need a "Show us your bowsaw" thread. A LOT of people have made these so it would be really cool to have one place where all the variations could be seen at once.
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Josh your's looks pretty nice from the pics. What do you need to "fix" on it?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Some of the curves need a bit of fairing, on the stretcher there's a little uneven dip in the transition from the curve to the straight part. Mostly though, there's a just a lot of tool marks in places. I just need to sharpen up one of my knives or large chisel and smooth things through, or hit it with the sandpaper or scraper and smooth it out. Just to get that nice glossy smooth look you folks have. I think I might make a new stretcher. and play with the bevels like yours has.

[Chris Griggs]

Some of the curves need a bit of fairing, on the stretcher there's a little uneven dip in the transition from the curve to the straight part. Mostly though, there's a just a lot of tool marks in places. I just need to sharpen up one of my knives or large chisel and smooth things through, or hit it with the sandpaper or scraper and smooth it out. Just to get that nice glossy smooth look you folks have. I think I might make a new stretcher. and play with the bevels like yours has.

Just sanding the flat areas with a backed piece of sandpaper and then sanding the rounded areas with sandpaper on a dowel will probably make a big difference in doing that. As I'm sure you know, if your careful with the sanding you'll end up with some nice crisp transitions. As far as the glossy look...oil and shellac my friend.... oil and shellac. That's all I finish anything with anymore.

[Michael Ray Smith]

My advice:
Tho Joel vehemently defends hickory, it's atraditional and a poor choice for this application. These frames see bending (shear parallel to the long grain) and need cross grain properties. Marples made similar saws out of beech, which has fantastic x-grain properties. I think beech has the BEST x-grain properties of any domestic hardwood which makes it excellent for lots of tool related applications. Either maple or cherry would be good choices, attractive and strong. Several builders have reported cracking their finely made bow saw frames. Joel very carefully makes his and doesn't have problems. It could also be user error either in over tightening or in poor wood choice or frame shaping (removing too many long fibers).

Looking back at old threads on bow saws, I see that wood selection has been discussed from time to time. (See for example Chris's thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?178538-Wood-Species-for-Gramercy-Bow-Saw-Kit)from a little over a year ago.) This might be a more general question that deserves its own thread, but I'll ask it here anyway: What quantitative properties might one consider in selecting a species for the arms and the stretcher of a bow saw? The two pieces, of course, see very different forces, with the arms subject to bending and the stretcher subject to compression. I found one source -- here (http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/3_Wood_Strength/3_Wood_Strength.htm)-- of fairly simple property comparisons that seems to indicate that hickory should be a very good choice for the arms, unless maybe it's too stiff (is a bit of flexing actually a good thing?) or too heavy. It looks as if yellow birch (which some others have mentioned) would be good choice for making it a bit lighter without losing too much in the way of strength. For the stretcher, which seems unlikely to fail, weight might be the key property . . . and cherry might be a good choice. Here's another source (http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_05.pdf)with so much data it causes my eyes to glaze over; I don't even know where to begin with that much information. Comments?

[Steve Branam]

Thanks, Mark!

I haven't had any problems with cracking, but I did manage to break the 60lb-test braided fishing line due to over-tightening. The problem was that the corners over which the string ran were a little too sharp, so I relieved them a bit with a rasp when I replaced the string. By the way, when the string fails, the whole just kind of explodes in your hands!

[Tony Shea]

Thanks Chris and Joshua. And yes the finger notch was roughed out with a gouge. I did refine the notch with rasps and files. I actually refined all the chamfers and roundings with files and then with 400grit paper. But working pear wood really is a whole different animal than most other woods. It comes off my tools so clean that I have to do very little cleanup. Steve using rosewood on his must've been a battle. I am currently finishing up a dovetailed jewelry box made from Honduran rosewood and the stuff tried my patience the whole way. The one thing I did learn from Steve using rosewood is that a scraper really is about the best cutting tool for the stuff. Since he pointed that out in his bow saw build I don't touch the rosewood with any paper at all.