Warning! The Shelix head may not be what you want on jointers.

[Dev Emch]

There has been quite a bit of talk about putting a ITCH or Shelix head on a jointer. ITCH is an oliver acro meaning Independent Tooth Carbide Head. I always wonderd if it shouldnt be ICTH or Independent Carbide Tooth Head.

At any rate, many jointers have always been equipped with rebate ledgers to allow them to cut rebates or rabbits. Although many woodworkers never use this feature, its still there. A key aspect to this is to allow the edge of the knife to function as a spur nicker and cut a clean corner. The shelix type head does not have dedicted nickers on the front side of the cylinder. Therefore, it cannot cut the clean, sharpe edge you all wish to see in the rebate or rabbit application. If you dont use this feature, no problem. Go out and install a shelix in your machine.

The shelix is also good at cutting down some of the noise. O.K. Fine. Not enough of an issue for me to go out and buy one. It also does an excellent job on pagen grain hardwoods. Now you have my attention!!!!! Burl and Curl. If this is your thing, this feature may be a good idea as well.

Many folks often wonder why we need jointers that have 12 inch to 30 inch widths. Well, these are surfaceing machines or surfacers in addition to being jointers. But there is also one more aspect. By running a board at an angle, also known as shear cutting, I can improve the quaiity of the cut and reduce or eliminate blow out. By keeping the wood moist and running it through at a shear angle, I can get excellent cuts on pagen grain.

So instead of running an 8 inch jointer with a shelix, I have found I can get better performance out of running a 20 inch jointer with straight steel knives. By the time I buy a good 8 inch jointer and the shelix heads and the inserts and the torque wrench, I could have bought a 1950s or 1960s oliver or porter or newman in 12 inch, 16 inch or 20 inch widths for the same money or less and be getting the same performance ore more.

Just food for thought as there are always 9 ways to skin the kittie.

[Alan Turner]

I have the Shelix on my 12", and it was expensive, but to me has so far been worth it. It was specially made as mine is older. As to the rebate function, Byrd askem me if my jointer had the ledge, which it does, and then made it to work for that ledge. I don't rabbet that way, so not sure it matters.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

If I buy the Shelix, it will be for ease of use. Setting jointer knives is a pain, with the Shelix you don't have to get them all at an equal height.

[Steven Wilson]

If I buy the Shelix, it will be for ease of use. Setting jointer knives is a pain, with the Shelix you don't have to get them all at an equal height.

There are other ways to skin that cat. I can change the knives on my Tersa cutterhead in a minute or two; much quicker than spining all the carbide cutters on a Shelix or changing and aligning knives on a normal cutterhead.

[JayStPeter]

So instead of running an 8 inch jointer with a shelix, I have found I can get better performance out of running a 20 inch jointer with straight steel knives. By the time I buy a good 8 inch jointer and the shelix heads and the inserts and the torque wrench, I could have bought a 1950s or 1960s oliver or porter or newman in 12 inch, 16 inch or 20 inch widths for the same money or less and be getting the same performance ore more.

Just food for thought as there are always 9 ways to skin the kittie.

I have $800 in my 8" + helical cutterhead. I sure haven't seen any 12-20" jointers go for that price around here (and I've been looking). Well ... OK ... I've seen some really (and I mean really) rusty old 12" and 16" ers go for less than a grand. But, add a new motor and/or phase converter, machine shop work (these were in bad shape, so it's likely), bearings, etc. and you've blown way over. I've refurbed a machine before and may do it again someday, but for now I'd like to spend my shop time woodworking.

I haven't tried the rabbeting ledge with my helical cutterhead, so I don't know if it works or not. But the rabbeting ledge is the worst way I've ever cut a rabbet, so I don't care.

I totally agree that wider is better. For the cost and space constraints most of us have, the helical cutterhead is a darn good choice. Plus, I don't have to set any more knives :D .

Jay

[Bill Simmeth]

I have the Shelix on my 12", and it was expensive, but to me has so far been worth it. It was specially made as mine is older. As to the rebate function, Byrd askem me if my jointer had the ledge, which it does, and then made it to work for that ledge. I don't rabbet that way, so not sure it matters.
Alan, that's interesting that Byrd was able to accomodate the rabbet ledge. Can you elaborate on how that is done on the head? (Hey, it'll be your 1000th post!)

Thanks...

[John Miliunas]

Dev, you bring some good arguments to the table, but you'd be really, REALLY hard-pressed to talk me out of my Shelix!:D Faster, cleaner and quieter cuts in ALL kinds of wood flavors, including the highly figured. My shop is bigger than many, but still NOT big enough to support the huge 16 or 20 (or more) inch jointers. Nor, in case of the older ones, do I have the $$$ necessary to first purchase one of them, more than likely have it shipped, then the motor conversion and we haven't even touched the need(s) to refurb the rest of it!:( Plus, besides the points mentioned by the other guys, I also find the feeding material through on my jointer with the Shelix (DJ20) is easier and less fatiguing than with the regular blades. Not sure that I'd ever go back to anything but the Shelix.:) :cool:

[Dev Emch]

All good points. And when it comes to pagen grain hardwoods, you will be hard pressed to beat the shelix. What the shelix needs is a set of edge nickers on the front face.

The cost of the shelix varies. On jointers like a 12 inch northfield, your talking about 3500 or so dollars. On a 12 inch oliver, they have these in the 1200 dollar range. I was looking for a generic 6 inch. I am restoring a very very old wallace jointer more for its looks than engineering. It has a 3 knife clam shell head which is a pain. I would really like a modern head like a 3 knife gib head or a byrd or a tersa.

I also agree that using a jointer to cut rabbets is not a good idea. My shaper can do it much faster and with more accuracy. I was just surprised that these heads cannt do rabbets.

Lastly, you guys need to go to more auctions. Clearly, some of you have not been! You will be pleasantly surprised most of the time.

[Bart Leetch]

Me neither I've just small a shop & am regular hobbyist I haven't the room or the bank account for either the big jointer or the shelix head. But it sure is fun reading the information offered here for & against such tools. :)

[lou sansone]

I tend to agree with dev on this one. You guys know that I have the nimitz as a jointer so skewing cuts are not a problem. I guess I would really have to try a shelix head to see how I liked it before really could say thumbs up or down with any type of reason. If I was processing teak then the insert tooling would really be a necessity.
lou

[Nick Mitchell]

I said this before on another thread but if you can only afford the ShelixHelixFelixthecat cutterhead on either your jointer or your planer, why wouldn't it be the planer? Isn't the planer the last stop before sanding? :confused:

[Dev Emch]

Good point Nick....

Planers are great but they have one flaw or characteristic depending on now you look at it. Normally your bed rollers are wee bit above the actual bed and your feed rollers are also putting pressure on the stock at it goes through. Thus, the actual distance between infeed roller and outfeed roller is rather small and broken by the contact with the bed rollers. The cutter cuts between these two. So what actually happens is that the cutter parallels the bottom surface rather well and with more detail than i wish to know about.

In english, your making a nice smooth potatoe chip of even tickness. It is very important to "face" stock before putting it into the planer. This is what a jointer excells at. Now you can build a special sled for your wood and use the planer to first flatten one side and then, without the aide of the sled, plane the other side down. A true pain and lots of extra work.

So Nick, there is no real answer to this dilema. If your working pagen grain and rely upon the shelix to resolve this, then you will need shelix heads in both your planer and jointer. If you had to put a shelix into only one machine, I would say put it into the planer and here is why.

You can face joint rough stock and live with the blow out you get using regular blades and kit. Then flip the board over so the flat side with blow out is facing down against the planer bed. Now plane the top surface until you get it just smooth and nice. Then flip the boad over and using this new surface as a reference, you can replane the jointed face to remove the original blow out.

The shelix head is an insert head that provides a shear cut. In fact that is where the name comes from... Shear Helical Insert Head. So whats the difference between running the board through straight and forcing the cutter head to perform a shearing cut or running the board through at an angle with a straight knife head and doing the shearing cut yourself?

[John Miliunas]

Dev & Nick, while I am NOT an expert, by any stretch of the imagination, here are my thought and reasoning for going the direction I went. First, while maximum width jointers and planers (16 or 20+")would be super to have, I am missing three key components of that particular process: 1) Money. 2) Space 3) Money. I suppose there could be a fourth: See #1!:) That same #1 reason is partially why I went for the Shelix on my DJ20. Byrd (to the best of my knowledge) does not make a Shelix for my jointer, which is only a 13" Dewalt lunchbox planer. I would like to end up with a 15 or 20" planer somewhere down the road, but even for the 15", the Shelix is double or more the price than the 8" jointer head was.:eek: Now, given the space and financial situation, I still end up with a cutterhead capable of flattening some of the gnarliest stuff I have. :) Will my planer, even at 1/2 feed speed do the same? Why heck no! But I get down to within about a 32nd, making sure I have consistent thickness and then swing back over to the Shelix-equipped jointer for a couple quick passes. That gets me down to within a 1/64th or so. While the Shelix does a wonderful job of flattening and doing so without tearout, there is still the issue of machine marks. That last 64th or so leaves me the latitude necessary to finish smoothing the surface(s) with hand planes.:) If money were not an object, I'd have a planer equipped with the same Shelix head. If money AND space were not issues, I'd have either much, much larger capacity jointer & planer or somewhat larger units each equipped with a Shelix. Basically, I tried to make the best out of the space and funds I had available. Personally, someone can tell me it's the dumbest thing I've ever done (I'd have to argue with THAT on numerous levels!:D ), but I'm quite happy with the results.:) :cool:

[Dev Emch]

John....

The solution you outlined is not one of the dumbest things someone can do... rather its one of the smartest things you can do. Its one reason I was looking into putting the shelix onto this tiny 6 inch jointer I am restoring. ITs yet another way to solve this problem. You also brought up the point about machine marks. They happen. Period. So you should be prepared to use some alternate finish method to get rid of them. Be that sanding, planing or using a scraper.

[David Merzel]

I'm looking at a new planer and saw the Shelix head for the first time. I was intrigued but have no experience with it. I assume the knives/cutters get rotated when they are dull. When they are used up (turned 3X), are they sharpened or replaced as a set? What does that cost?
Thanks,
Dave

[Ben Cadotte]

You replace just the ones you need to replace. Griz sells them in sets of 10. Not sure about other places.

[Steve knight]

There are other ways to skin that cat. I can change the knives on my Tersa cutterhead in a minute or two; much quicker than spining all the carbide cutters on a Shelix or changing and aligning knives on a normal cutterhead.
faster then changing them say 24 times? thats about how many times you would need to change them compared to how often I have to rotate cutters. how much would that cost?

[Joe Jensen]

There has been quite a bit of talk about putting a ITCH or Shelix head on a jointer. ITCH is an oliver acro meaning Independent Tooth Carbide Head. I always wonderd if it shouldnt be ICTH or Independent Carbide Tooth Head.

At any rate, many jointers have always been equipped with rebate ledgers to allow them to cut rebates or rabbits. Although many woodworkers never use this feature, its still there. A key aspect to this is to allow the edge of the knife to function as a spur nicker and cut a clean corner. The shelix type head does not have dedicted nickers on the front side of the cylinder. Therefore, it cannot cut the clean, sharpe edge you all wish to see in the rebate or rabbit application. If you dont use this feature, no problem. Go out and install a shelix in your machine.

The shelix is also good at cutting down some of the noise. O.K. Fine. Not enough of an issue for me to go out and buy one. It also does an excellent job on pagen grain hardwoods. Now you have my attention!!!!! Burl and Curl. If this is your thing, this feature may be a good idea as well.

Many folks often wonder why we need jointers that have 12 inch to 30 inch widths. Well, these are surfaceing machines or surfacers in addition to being jointers. But there is also one more aspect. By running a board at an angle, also known as shear cutting, I can improve the quaiity of the cut and reduce or eliminate blow out. By keeping the wood moist and running it through at a shear angle, I can get excellent cuts on pagen grain.

So instead of running an 8 inch jointer with a shelix, I have found I can get better performance out of running a 20 inch jointer with straight steel knives. By the time I buy a good 8 inch jointer and the shelix heads and the inserts and the torque wrench, I could have bought a 1950s or 1960s oliver or porter or newman in 12 inch, 16 inch or 20 inch widths for the same money or less and be getting the same performance ore more.

Just food for thought as there are always 9 ways to skin the kittie.

Great plan if you have gobs of space, and you live in a part of the country where 20" jointers exist. Sadly here in Phoenix I've never seen more than a 12" on Craig's list. :( I've used jointers for 30 years and I've only used the rabbiting ledge a few times. The times I did, I ended up with terrible tearout on the bottom of the board. I'd much rather use the TS or a router. With the Byrd head I'll never again align knives, and I get ZERO tearout with the figured woods I like to use :p

[Dave MacArthur]

(cough) 3 year old thread...

[Per Swenson]

Yup,

But whatever happened to Dev?

Dev?.......... Dev?........Bueller?

Per

[George Summers]

Many folks often wonder why we need jointers that have 12 inch to 30 inch widths. Well, these are surfaceing machines or surfacers in addition to being jointers. But there is also one more aspect. By running a board at an angle, also known as shear cutting, I can improve the quaiity of the cut and reduce or eliminate blow out. By keeping the wood moist and running it through at a shear angle, I can get excellent cuts on pagen grain.

Interesting comment. Some years ago there was a thread on one of the forums about the Harbor Freight jointer (I'm not going to get into the fit/finish or engineering debate) and one poster said that the fence was no good because it anchored at the front and the back end would deflect. I said then, that this might be a good thing. As the back deflected, it let the workpiece go past the knives at an angle which gave a shear cut. I was roundly boo'ed and told that I knew not of what I was speaking and a jointer fence had, must, could not be otherwise, to be square to the knives.

George

[Jeff Duncan]

Hmmm, interesting post, the only thing I'd add is I believe the Oliver ITCH head is different than what most of us know as insert cutterheads. It's my understanding that the original Oliver design had separate short knives staggered around the cutterhead, and that once you got all the knives set you then ground them all one at a time on the cutterhead. They are supposed to be pretty impressive machines, but sharpening the knives would be quite a time consuming process I think. Also I believe they were mostly for planers, I don't believe I've ever heard of one being used on a jointer?
Also if you can find a decent Oliver or Porter 16 - 20" Jointer for less than $3k you've done very well. The last 16" Oly I went to look at was going for $4500 and it sold within a day. Not to mention you'll need a very large shop as the tables are over 9' in length on some of them, and the direct drives are close to 4' in depth. Then there's the issue of 3 phase power, yup not really an option for many of the guys reading these posts I would guess. I really wanted on myself, but couldn't really fit it in my shop, and I have about 2k sq. ft..
Just another way of looking at it.
JeffD

[Frank Drew]

I was roundly boo'ed and told that I knew not of what I was speaking and a jointer fence had, must, could not be otherwise, to be square to the knives.

George

As you knew, and I guess the others didn't, the fence can be square to the beds and knives and still be angled in relation to the length of the cutterhead.

[Greg Cole]

Yup,

But whatever happened to Dev?

Dev?.......... Dev?........Bueller?

Per

Per
He's off looking for one of the remaining long lost Gameboys.:D Rumor has it one was spotted and he's been looking for it for a few years....

Greg

[Bruce Page]

Yup,

But whatever happened to Dev?

Dev?.......... Dev?........Bueller?

Per
I saw the post and hoped Dev had returned. :(
Too bad, the guy had a wealth of knowledge.

[Chris Padilla]

His location says, "Anywhere it snows..." so he could be, uh, pretty much anywhere! :D