Oil stones and Japanese chisels?

[Bryan Ericson]

I'm currently using two sharpening systems. The first is the one detailed on the Tools for Working Wood website: hollow grinding (if needed) followed by a medium india stone followed by a fine arkansas followed by stropping. The second is the one that George recommends using the black/white Spyderco ceramic stones. Both work well for me. I use the same freehand technique on all the stones and get good results, so I don't want to change my sharpening setup.

I'm also interested in giving Japanese chisels a try. However, since the chisels were made to be sharpened with waterstones, I'm concerned that my current stones won't be very effective on the harder steel in the chisels. Hollow grinding doesn't seem to be recommended for Japanese chisels, and I'm concerned that sharpening the wide bevel of the chisels would take too much time.

Does anyone have any information about sharpening Japanese chisels using oil or ceramic stones? I think I'd go with white steel chisels if I decide to make the purchase, because blue steel would be harder still to sharpen.

Thanks!

[Stanley Covington]

I'm also interested in giving Japanese chisels a try. However, since the chisels were made to be sharpened with waterstones, I'm concerned that my current stones won't be very effective on the harder steel in the chisels. Hollow grinding doesn't seem to be recommended for Japanese chisels, and I'm concerned that sharpening the wide bevel of the chisels would take too much time.

Does anyone have any information about sharpening Japanese chisels using oil or ceramic stones? I think I'd go with white steel chisels if I decide to make the purchase, because blue steel would be harder still to sharpen.

Thanks!

Bryan:

If you are married to oilstones you may find some Japanese chisels frustrating. Interesting priorities.

[Bryan Ericson]

Interesting priorities.

Not necessarily. I don't feel like I absolutely need some Japanese chisels, I just hear so much positive things said about them that I thought I'd investigate. I wouldn't buy a whole set to start, just one or two to see how I like them. If it turns out they're not for me, then I can sell it and chalk it up to a lesson learned.

[David Weaver]

I'm currently using two sharpening systems. The first is the one detailed on the Tools for Working Wood website: hollow grinding (if needed) followed by a medium india stone followed by a fine arkansas followed by stropping. The second is the one that George recommends using the black/white Spyderco ceramic stones. Both work well for me. I use the same freehand technique on all the stones and get good results, so I don't want to change my sharpening setup.

I'm also interested in giving Japanese chisels a try. However, since the chisels were made to be sharpened with waterstones, I'm concerned that my current stones won't be very effective on the harder steel in the chisels. Hollow grinding doesn't seem to be recommended for Japanese chisels, and I'm concerned that sharpening the wide bevel of the chisels would take too much time.

Does anyone have any information about sharpening Japanese chisels using oil or ceramic stones? I think I'd go with white steel chisels if I decide to make the purchase, because blue steel would be harder still to sharpen.

Thanks!

If you get something simple (like white #2) with a reasonably soft back, they will sharpen on either. A lot of the white #2 chisels made now in the mid price range (like $40 or $50 a chisel) really aren't a lot harder than some of the very vintage chisels you'll find. If you step up to something like a koyama-ichi chisel, still white #2, then it will be as hard as you'd expect it to be but you could still sharpen it.

If you have a lot of work to do because of a nick, if you abrade the surface of a medium india, it will cut a japanese chisel very quickly...faster than any waterstone that's medium grit - it's the same basic abrasive and more coarse.

I don't know what your fine arkansas is, but chances are you could lift the handle of the chisel a little on it a degree or two and come up with a very fine edge on japanese white steel (similar to the edge quality you can get on a vintage plain steel chisel).

The spydercos would also work, maybe better.

Option #2 would be one of the chisels that can be ground (yxr-7 steel, iyoroi or stu stocks a brand of them, maybe there's others too), but that have very tough steel and would be sharpenable on the medium india but not on an arkansas (novaculite stone). They would also be OK with the spydercos, but you could offset that by keeping the hollow fresh. I'm not aware of anywhere to get the iyoroi version that is english speaking (you'd have to go to fujibato- http://www.330mate.com/product/193 ) but they are *cheap* as far as that type of chisel goes (relative term, they're still about $35-$50 depending on size).

What's your budget? We can probably help you avoid spending mid range dollars to get a tool that isn't as good as a mid-range dollar tool would be.

[David Weaver]

Not necessarily. I don't feel like I absolutely need some Japanese chisels, I just hear so much positive things said about them that I thought I'd investigate. I wouldn't buy a whole set to start, just one or two to see how I like them. If it turns out they're not for me, then I can sell it and chalk it up to a lesson learned.

Maybe pick your two favorite sizes. like 6 or 9mm and 18mm or 21mm, something like that. It's wise to not buy a set. I think of the 10 that came in my set, maybe 3 or 4 would get used on a regular basis if I didn't have other chisels.

[Bryan Ericson]

What's your budget? We can probably help you avoid spending mid range dollars to get a tool that isn't as good as a mid-range dollar tool would be.

Thanks for the info, David. My "budget" is to get something as cheaply as I can and yet not say "I wish I'd spent more" later on :). Sorry, that's not very helpful. I was looking at the Fujikawa Yasaku bench chisels at Stu's website. Note that I haven't contacted Stu yet - this is my initial "toe in the water" post to see if it's possible to use a Japanese chisel without having to buy new sharpening equipment. Based on Stu's description, they seem like a good quality chisel at a price I wouldn't feel buyer's remorse over. Plus, Stu's reputation here leads me to believe his descriptions are accurate.

[David Weaver]

You could get one (from stu) and try it on the spydercos. They would cut it, as would the india stone if it was kept fresh on the surface. It shouldn't require much maintenance, though.

You can trust that if you read a description on stu's site, that's what you'll get.

[Chris Griggs]

You could get one (from stu) and try it on the spydercos. They would cut it, as would the india stone if it was kept fresh on the surface. It shouldn't require much maintenance, though.

You can trust that if you read a description on stu's site, that's what you'll get.

Won't the Sypdercos cut just about anything as long is the surface is periodically "refreshed"?

[David Weaver]

Yes. They take well to having loose abrasive on their surface, too. It's a double benefit - it keeps the surface from getting totally stale and it speeds up the cut if the surface is stale. A stale surface has its own merits (very very fine edge), but is an awfully large jump from a medium stone.

[Kevin Adams]

Bryan, fwiw, I use oil stones for my Japanese chisels (white steel) and they work fine. As others have said, if you want to try them, buy one or two and give it a go. The ceramic would definitely work anyway.

Thanks, Kevin

[george wilson]

Spyderco ceramic stones will cut the hardest steel out there. I start with a diamond bench stone(unless grinding was needed). The ceramic stones just won't wear out. They need a little cleaning with scouring powder(at least the white one does. No issues with the black one needing cleaning.

I can EASILY re grind broken Arkansas slip stones into other,special shapes with blue belts on my belt grinder. You WILL NOT touch a Spyderco on those belts. Probably just wear out the belt. The belts are ceramic,too.

I resharpen my ceramic kitchen knives on a horizontal/vertical 6" wheel diamond grinder,using different grit wheels. Ceramic is so durable,a ceramic wheels offered to put loose diamond compound on.Not as hard as diamond,but the most durable thing out there!! I don't have one at home since the ceramic wheels are over $200.00($250.00,I think). Had one at work. I can get by with metal lapping wheels,and just make new ones.

[Bryan Ericson]

I've been giving my ceramic stones a quick clean up with a diamond stone as you've suggested, George. I knew the ceramic stones were hard, but I guess I didn't realize just how hard and durable they really are.

Thanks for the information, everyone. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience.