Another Plane Blade Sharpening Question

[Rich Seifert]

Hello friends. Some of you may recall that I posted the topic, "End Grain Tearout Woes on the Shooting Board" a few weeks ago, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?195787-End-Grain-Tearout-Woes-on-the-Shooting-Board
and many of you provided your expert advice, which I truly appreciate. It turned out that my problem was (and still is) my sharpening. Shaving hair is clearly not a proper test of sharpness, so now I have a few questions about sharpening. In that previous post, John Coloccia asked:

... why do you have so many bevels in your blade? Most people would just grind it at 25* (I'm assuming a hollow grind) and then ride that bevel and hone it. You're sort of defeating the purpose of the hollow grind...

This great question got me thinking. I have a WorkSharp for the initial Grinding Angle (it's a flat grind vs. a hollow-grind). I also use the Veritas Mk II Honing Guide for use with the WorkSharp and the stones. I also have a mirror-back on all of my blades, flattened initially on the WS, progressively through every sandpaper grit up to 1500, then final-polished on the 13000 stone, which I flattened with the Atoma diamond plate after every ~20 or so strokes of sharpening.

Here's where I need help with my sharpening routine:
1. Am I wasting time with an unnecessary grind, as John questioned? Should I just do an initial Grinding Angle on the WorkSharp, followed by a primary angle cutting on the stones and be done with it? So this would mean,


Set Grinding Angle on Mk II Jig, grind on Worksharp with 80-grit at 25 degree Grind Angle (for example)
Then add a 1 or 2 degree microbevel, with turn of thumbscrew
Switch to stones: PS II 1200 to for primary cutting angle ... 4 to 5 swipes or until wire edge detected (leave wire edge there)
Switch to PS 6000 stone ... 4 to 5 swipes with high finger pressure (wire edge still there)
Switch to PS13000 stone ... about 10 very soft swipes for polishing
Remove blade, flip over, use Charlesworth's ruler trick, on and off 13000 stone, to remove wire edge

When too time consuming (more than 10 swipes on PS II 1200, then re-grind on the workSharp with 80-grit and re-start the process above. This would be faster and more simple than what I'm doing now.

2. OR ... should I keep doing the 1 or 2 degree micro bevel on the blade?


Set Grinding Angle on Mk II Jig, grind on Worksharp with 80-grit at 25 degree Grind Angle (for example)
Then set blade in jig to Primary Cutting Angle (example 30 degrees)
PS II 1200 for primary cutting angle ... 4 to 5 swipes or until wire edge detected (leave wire edge there)
Then add the 1 or 2 degree Microbevel Angle, do a few more passes on the 1200 stone (with the microbevel dialed in)
Then switch to PS 6000 stone ... 4 to 5 swipes with high finger pressure (wire edge still there)
Then the PS13000 stone ... about 10 very soft swipes for polishing
Remove blade, flip, ruler trick, on and off 13000 stone, to remove wire edge
When too time consuming to sharpen (more than 10 swipes on PS II 1200, then re-grind on the WorkSharp with 80-grit and re-start the process above.


3. Then what should I do for intermediate sharpenings while working? (a) All of step 2 above (1200, 6000, and 13000)? (b) Or just the 6000 then 13000 on the final micro-bevel only? (c) Or just the 13000 on the final micro-bevel only?

Sorry about the long post... Thank you again for your time!

Sincerely,
Rich

[Curt Putnam]

Here's what I would do (I, too, have & use a WKS 3000 with MKII honing guide.) Grind the primary bevel on the machine - run the grits up to about 1500 and then follow your 1st procedure. If your WKS 3000 is dialed in so that the table & wheel are perfectly coplanar (bevels on stones and machine match exactly) then use the leather wheel with green compound for your touchups. When you start feeling as though you need more than a power strop go to the 1000 stone and then upwards. If you don't have a leather wheel, then a few strokes on the 6000 and then a few on the 13000 will do the deed. I am very much impressed with both stones.

Right now, my factory table and wheel are not coplanar and I not seem to be able to make them so. Will have to make my own table with fine thread mounting bolts for adjustment. That will take more time than I have at the moment so I either use stones or machine but not both. I still grind main bevels with machine.

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Rich,

Here's what I do.

Get the blade set up in the honing guide. 25°-30°, doesn't really matter. Work on the #1200, applying pressure to the bevel only, as little pressure as possible on the wheel. Add water as needed when the stone slows down in it's cutting. Not much, just enough to get things moving again. A squirt from your water bottle is enough.

Keep going until you have a slight burr on the back that will catch a fingernail. No need for a big, fat burr, just enough that there is a distinct resistance when you run a nail across that edge. Wash off everything with water.

Take out the #6000 stone, splash some water on it and get to work on that bevel before the water dries. As the slurry dries out (the stone will soak up the water) back off the pressure. Occasionally inspect the bevel, and when the scratches from the #1200 are gone, you're done. At this point, there may or may not be a slight burr on the back. It matters not either way, so long as the bevel is clean right at the edge.

Adjust for a microbevel, take out the #13000 stone, splash some water on it and do the same as for the #6000 stone. Light pressure should be more than enough, and again inspect the edge occasionally looking for a clean, smooth and likely polished edge. If there is no polish, chances are there is more water on the stone than is needed. So long as the edge is smooth, polish matters not.

Take the blade out of the honing guide, and use the ruler on the stone and rub the back at the edge across the stone maybe 5-10 times. No need to actually count, just so long as you can see a smooth, clean and maybe polished area on the back that is visible across the full width.

Take the blade, make sure it's washed off and then wipe the blade across your palm, dragging the bevel and back to 'wipe off' anything at the edge. Make sure your hands are clean of course.

Use the blade. It should be sharp. If in doubt, take a piece of writing/printer paper in one hand, and gently try to let the blade drop through the paper. If the blade edge is both smooth and sharp, it will slice through the paper under it's own weight easily. If it catches, the blade is either not sharp or the edge is not smooth.

There is no need to flatten any of the stones at any time during this process. There is no need to count strokes. There is no need to manage water or soak the stones. Once you get it sorted out, this should take no more than 2 minutes of your time, once the blade is in the honing guide.

(Yes, I am telling you to use all stones splashed. While the #1200 really starts working hard when it's soaked, I don't think that your blades need that much work. They should be in reasonable enough shape as they are, right now.)

Key points are to make sure you get that slight burr on the back from the #1200. Make sure your bevel is smooth and consistent at the edge and there are no big scratches sticking out. Make sure that any wire edge you do produce is visibly abraded/polished off from the stones. There might still be some remnant of it, but so long as it's not visible to the naked eye, it shouldn't pose any problems.

Don't flatten too much and don't over think it. Sharpening is supposed to be easy, and especially so if you're using a guide as the guide makes it a 'follow the steps' kind of thing and it should be a purely mechanical process to get the blade sharp, no finesse required.

I'm working on a video to help you guys out, and believe me, you'll be shocked at how reckless I am compared to some of you guys. I just slap-a-dap-a-dap and a razor pops out the other side.

So, take a deep breath, throw a little caution to the wind and see how you go. Once you can get a nice edge off with boring repeatability, then it's time to experiment a little.

And thank you for reminding me that while I can sharpen stuff with a coffee cup, it doesn't come so easily to everyone and I need to make sure those who are having trouble get the guidance they need to make it as easy as it should be.

Good luck!

Stu.

[Jim Koepke]

Rich,

There are many ways to get to sharp. The following works for me. It may be all wrong, but it works.

For shooting end grain, my plane is the LN 62. If my memory is correct this is the same plane you are using.

For such a low angle plane, with a new blade, there is no reason, imo, to use a back bevel or the "ruler trick." With a bedding angle of 12º there is very little relief angle under the blade. My gut feeling is end grain needs more of a relief angle than face or edge grain. My gut could be wrong.

My philosophy is to get a plane working the way it was designed to work before trying to make it work better. There have been many laments posted about someone buying a plane and before even putting it to wood, taking it all apart and then not being able to get it back to working the way it should.

My burrs are always removed before working on a bevel on the next stone. My method could be wrong, maybe someone can chime in and tell us why a burr should be left alone until the end.

My experience tells me a low angle of attack works better on end grain than a higher angle. This makes me reluctant to use a secondary bevel on my bevel up planes.

There are many ways to test blade sharpness.

One is on the end grain of a soft wood like pine. A sharp blade should be able to make a shaving of pine and leave a neat surface. Pine fibers are likely to compress more than most other woods. If the fibers are pushed much before being cut, little pockets can appear if they do not spring back to where the were.

Another is the paper test. A sharp blade can be pushed cleanly through a piece of paper. The push is straight without sliding on the paper to cause a slicing effect.

Shaving arm hair is one of those test that some do not like because of the danger involved. My propensity to grow a beard started back in the 1960s. Back then, most barbers used straight razors to shave customers. Removing unruly hair was easier for me with a straight razor than it was with a safety razor. Testing a sharp blade by shaving a little hair is not something to frighten me. It is possible to get a dull blade to remove a little hair. A truly sharp blade will remove hair without leaving a trace behind nor will it be felt while it is doing its job. A blade that is not as sharp can do many things. It may feel like it is pulling on the hair. It can feel like it is abrading the skin, even to the point of leaving some dust from particles of skin.

A similar test to this is one if my memory is correct was brought up by David Weaver, called the hanging hair test or HHT. This involves judging the sharpness of a blade by the different reactions a hanging hair displays when coming into contact with a blade. My recollection is there were about five steps of sharpness described. They are different, but are comparable to my steps of sharpness determined by arm hair shaving.

Here is what a quick search of SMC found, well it wasn't David, but I think he may have posted about it in a different thread:


It's an age old test for razors.
What you do is get a hair and hold it between your thumb and index finger and have it extend horizontally. Then, with your blade edge facing straight up you gently pass the hair straight down over the edge as if you're slicing bologna. Don't drag the hair across the edge , just pass it straight down ( move your hand perfectly vertical ) over the edge with the cut being about 3/4 inch from your fingers. If your edge is sharp it'll catch the hair and pop it in two. Try it along the length of the blade. There are different levels of HHT where it may 1. catch but not cut, 2. split the hair after it catches it 3. make a pinging sound, or best of all 4. the hair just drops right off without a sound . That's HHT 1, 2, 3, 4.
If it's really good,, the hair can extend up to a couple of inches at the point of it being cut rather than close to your fingers ( the hair is stiffer closer to your fingers) . You'll see the hair touch the edge, lay there for a moment and just fall off. That's a sharp edge.

One test many folks use, me included, is to touch an edge to their thumb nail. This should be done with the blade facing away and into the nail beyond where it is bonded to flesh underneath. If the blade doesn't stick with the slightest touch, it likely could use some time on the stones. My judgement of blades by this method is usually done at the bench before walking to the sharpening table.

Sharpening is one of those areas where many folks find different methods that work best for them. It sounds like you still haven't found what works for you.

The first step may be to get your plane working on edge grain. This is a common way to set up a plane to make sure the blade is cutting evenly across its blade's width.

As in so many things, one often needs to be able to use the basics before trying to master the latest "tricks."

jtk

[David Weaver]

All sharpening, grinder (or your worksharp) and one or two stones. With the ones you have, I'd go two.

spend more time than you think you should on maintaining the back polish at the edge (that's where your wear will be left). Like instead of 5 or 10 swipes, spend time in earnest - maybe that's 4 times that, I don't know, until you're sure the wear is gone.

If you have to spend any appreciable time on your 1000 stone or your other stones on the bevel side, then exercise the grinder, that's what it's for. The less of the bevel you're working with medium and fine stones, the better the edge you'll get, especially if you do a time vs. sharpness comparison.

[David Weaver]

A similar test to this is one if my memory is correct was brought up by David Weaver, called the hanging hair test or HHT. This involves judging the sharpness of a blade by the different reactions a hanging hair displays when coming into contact with a blade. My recollection is there were about five steps of sharpness described. They are different, but are comparable to my steps of sharpness determined by arm hair shaving.



Yeah, HHT is sort of a judge of the top end of edges, if it's done properly. arm hair shave is valuable, too, just judging by how easily a blade will shave arm hair. A medium stone edge (like 1k) will shave hair before it does end grain nicely, so it's more a test of how easily if you're looking for sharp.

If you're way out on the outer edges of sharpness where your tools would pass the the HHT at 3 or above, or anywhere around there, always do a quick light palm strop with a clean palm to make sure there's nothing remaining at the edge.

Sort of in the weeds kind of sharpness for woodworking, but not if you're sharpening carving tools.

A well sharpened straight razor will catch and cut hairs a good distance away from the arm. That's the kind of edge that I described in some prior posts where I mentioned the best natural stones bringing any hard steel to a bright polish. A hazy finish won't get there. A superb razor stone that holds its grit and imparts a fine uniform indistinguishable polish (one where you see no scratches of any type) will get there pretty easily.

[Charlie Stanford]

Hello friends. Some of you may recall that I posted the topic, "End Grain Tearout Woes on the Shooting Board" a few weeks ago, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?195787-End-Grain-Tearout-Woes-on-the-Shooting-Board
and many of you provided your expert advice, which I truly appreciate. It turned out that my problem was (and still is) my sharpening. Shaving hair is clearly not a proper test of sharpness, so now I have a few questions about sharpening. In that previous post, John Coloccia asked:


This great question got me thinking. I have a WorkSharp for the initial Grinding Angle (it's a flat grind vs. a hollow-grind). I also use the Veritas Mk II Honing Guide for use with the WorkSharp and the stones. I also have a mirror-back on all of my blades, flattened initially on the WS, progressively through every sandpaper grit up to 1500, then final-polished on the 13000 stone, which I flattened with the Atoma diamond plate after every ~20 or so strokes of sharpening.

Here's where I need help with my sharpening routine:
1. Am I wasting time with an unnecessary grind, as John questioned? Should I just do an initial Grinding Angle on the WorkSharp, followed by a primary angle cutting on the stones and be done with it? So this would mean,


Set Grinding Angle on Mk II Jig, grind on Worksharp with 80-grit at 25 degree Grind Angle (for example)
Then add a 1 or 2 degree microbevel, with turn of thumbscrew
Switch to stones: PS II 1200 to for primary cutting angle ... 4 to 5 swipes or until wire edge detected (leave wire edge there)
Switch to PS 6000 stone ... 4 to 5 swipes with high finger pressure (wire edge still there)
Switch to PS13000 stone ... about 10 very soft swipes for polishing
Remove blade, flip over, use Charlesworth's ruler trick, on and off 13000 stone, to remove wire edge

When too time consuming (more than 10 swipes on PS II 1200, then re-grind on the workSharp with 80-grit and re-start the process above. This would be faster and more simple than what I'm doing now.

2. OR ... should I keep doing the 1 or 2 degree micro bevel on the blade?


Set Grinding Angle on Mk II Jig, grind on Worksharp with 80-grit at 25 degree Grind Angle (for example)
Then set blade in jig to Primary Cutting Angle (example 30 degrees)
PS II 1200 for primary cutting angle ... 4 to 5 swipes or until wire edge detected (leave wire edge there)
Then add the 1 or 2 degree Microbevel Angle, do a few more passes on the 1200 stone (with the microbevel dialed in)
Then switch to PS 6000 stone ... 4 to 5 swipes with high finger pressure (wire edge still there)
Then the PS13000 stone ... about 10 very soft swipes for polishing
Remove blade, flip, ruler trick, on and off 13000 stone, to remove wire edge
When too time consuming to sharpen (more than 10 swipes on PS II 1200, then re-grind on the WorkSharp with 80-grit and re-start the process above.


3. Then what should I do for intermediate sharpenings while working? (a) All of step 2 above (1200, 6000, and 13000)? (b) Or just the 6000 then 13000 on the final micro-bevel only? (c) Or just the 13000 on the final micro-bevel only?

Sorry about the long post... Thank you again for your time!

Sincerely,
Rich

Start with a fresh blade, one that you haven't 'ruler tricked.' That, or flatten the back until there is no sign at all of the back bevel.

Then grind at 25*. Put it in your jig set at 25* and see if your jig's 25* and your Worksharp 25* are the same. If they're not, and you set the microbevel on your jig you may be honing at too high an angle. If everything is copasetic at 25* go ahead and set the jig for 2* extra and go through your highest grit stone. Polish the flat face on your highest grit stone. DO NOT do the ruler trick stuff.

If your roller jig's 25* and your Worksharp 25* are way different (something is wrong with one of them, most likely the Worksharp) then grind the blade in your roller jig using your coarsest stone or sandpaper and then move on up through the grits with a microbevel.

[Jason Coen]

DO NOT do the ruler trick stuff.



Use the ruler trick.

[Jim Koepke]

Use the ruler trick.

It is easy to see how the ruler trick can save an old pitted blade.

What purpose does the ruler trick serve on a new bevel up blade?

When someone is having trouble with the fundamentals of a process, it can be counter productive to throw in a lot of extra, often confusing or erroneously followed steps.

If these extra steps were needed to make the plane from LN do its job, they would have likely been on the blade when the plane was purchased.

jtk

[Jason Coen]

It is easy to see how the ruler trick can save an old pitted blade.

What purpose does the ruler trick serve on a new bevel up blade?

When someone is having trouble with the fundamentals of a process, it can be counter productive to throw in a lot of extra, often confusing or erroneously followed steps.

The "ruler trick" is the easiest and most simple way to ensure that the non-beveled side of the iron is polished at the edge.



If these extra steps were needed to make the plane from LN do its job, they would have likely been on the blade when the plane was purchased.

jtk

It's no more an extra step than polishing the non-beveled side in the customary manner. On the contrary, it's much faster and every bit as repeatable.

[Derek Cohen]

Oh brother ... Rich, if I tell you what I would do, it will likely confuse you no end. Too much information. The problem is that each of the above methods would work. There is no criticism implied if I offer additional information. Perhaps this is simpler ..

You have a LA Jack with a 12 degree bed. [good]

You have a Worksharp that can grind a primary bevel at 25 degrees with 80 grit sandpaper. [good]

You have a LV Mk II honing guide [good]

You have 1200/6000/13000 Sigmas [good]

1. Grind the 25 degree primary bevel with the 80 grit. Now put the WS away.

2. Fit the blade into honing guide and ensure that the angle you set is at or a degree above the primary bevel.

3. Set the honing guide to create a 2 degree secondary bevel, and work the 1200 grit until you can feel a slight-to-moderate wire edge along the back of the blade. As Stu has noted, this will inform you that the first, coarse honing has reached to back of the blade. Without this you cannot create a sharp edge. A soaked 1200 works better than a dry 1200.

4. I would now remove the wire edge on the 13000 stone. Leave the blade in the honing guide. Do not touch the settings. Just remove the wire with a sideways action. More in a moment.

5. Move to the 6000 stone. Again, keep the settings as before. You are still working the same micro secondary bevel. Use a magnifying glass if you need, but remove the scratches from the 1200. You should be able to feel a very fine wire edge at the back of the blade. Don't panic if you do not. If you maintain the angle and remove the scratches all will be well.

6. Again, remove the wire edge on the 13000 stone.

7. Proceed to the 13000. As before, use the same settings. (There is no need to alter the angle of the secondary bevel as it is so small - hence a "micro" bevel - that there is so little to hone).

NOTE that I have not said how many strokes you need on each stone. That is not possible to determine - everyone is different in the pressure they use, or the way the stones work. The important thing is to remove the preceding scratches.

8. One last task to finish the process. USE the Ruler Trick! Why? Because it will remove metal where the wear bevel forms. This will lengthen the duration that the edge remains sharp. The RT will also ensure that you have removed any vestige of the wire edge, which is vital in a sharp edge (and difficult to determine when one is starting out).

Edit to add: the RT will not alter the clearance angle - the LA Jack has a 12 degree bed. The RT will remove 2/3 of one degree of that. There only needs to be about 7 degrees clearance. So this set up is not in any danger at all.

Set the blade for a very fine shaving, as fine as possible. Rather work up to a shaving than have to deal with an edge that become blunted by too great an impact into an immovable object.

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

It is easy to see how the ruler trick can save an old pitted blade.

What purpose does the ruler trick serve on a new bevel up blade?

When someone is having trouble with the fundamentals of a process, it can be counter productive to throw in a lot of extra, often confusing or erroneously followed steps.

If these extra steps were needed to make the plane from LN do its job, they would have likely been on the blade when the plane was purchased.

jtk

Amen. Double Amen.

Jim, have you ever wondered why guys with thousands of dollars in woodworking gear - hand and power tools - all of a sudden go bonkers with pitted steel? To hear them tell it in other threads we now enjoy an embarrassment of riches in metallurgy applied to woodworking tools. And they're probably right. But let a piece of pitted steel cross their paths and they become pious frugalists.

And then the wear bevel horse-pucky. Well, there may be something to that. But my gosh why would anybody want to "extend time between honings" (or even be worried about getting five more minutes out of an edge) with Tormeks and Sigma Powers and whatever else dying to get into the ballgame? With all that gear I'd be grudge honing - just daring an edge to go dull. Do the woodworking equivalent of a pimp-slap on a dull edge with a bunch of imported Japanese hot rocks. First round knockout - four strokes on my 13,000 grit whatever.

Amazing.

[Derek Cohen]

Originally Posted by Jim Koepke
It is easy to see how the ruler trick can save an old pitted blade.


What purpose does the ruler trick serve on a new bevel up blade?


When someone is having trouble with the fundamentals of a process, it can be counter productive to throw in a lot of extra, often confusing or erroneously followed steps.


If these extra steps were needed to make the plane from LN do its job, they would have likely been on the blade when the plane was purchased.


jtk


Charlie Stanford .... Amen. Double Amen.

Charlie and Jim

Read #8 in my post above.

For BD planes I agree with you. However, for BU planes (until this issue is disproved), a different method is indicated.

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

[Jason Coen]

Amazing.

Was there a point to be made in all that amazement, or was it just more self back-patting condescension?

If you disagree with the ruler trick, please enlighten us to why your chosen method is superior. You've typed many words in this thread, and even whole sentences, but you've yet to produce a reason why one is superior to the other.

[David Weaver]

Ruler trick is generally good with a thin ruler (same one each time, of course) for any iron that is hard or abrasion resistant. It otherwise has no effect (there is no mythical growing and growing back bevel with a skilled user) on anything, not cap iron not anything.

It only requires a ruler and a suitably fine flat stone.

Most of the people who criticize it either have an individual reason to do so or no experience with it. Most of the people who despise it also complain about sharpening hard irons. And most people would have a better quality edge and sharper edge if they used it.

[Chris Griggs]

Are people actually debating whether or not the ruler trick works? Poor OP is just getting all sorts of confusing information. Seriously!!!!? You can get a sharp edge with or without the ruler trick. Some people find it fast and convenient some people think its inconvenient or inaccurate. Who cares. I used the ruler trick for while, then decided it was a hassle and stopped, but lately I've been using it again with great results. (but w/o the ruler just lifting a smidge). The ruler trick is NOT what is making or breaking this guys sharpening. So Rich, if your blade is ruler tricked keep ruler tricking it, if its not, take the time to make sure the back of the cutting edge is adequately polished all the way to the edge. That's what matters, fresh polished steel at the cutting edge.

My hunch is that the grind of your worksharp is a bit blunt and that your not taking enough time to pull a burr and get a nice flat secondary bevel on your 1200. Follow Stu's instruction above and you'll be fine. Make sure you feel that burr coming off the 1200, and you'll be golden. Thats what is establishing your edge, everything from there is just edge refinement.

[Jim Koepke]

Ruler trick is generally good with a thin ruler (same one each time, of course) for any iron that is hard or abrasion resistant. It otherwise has no effect (there is no mythical growing and growing back bevel with a skilled user) on anything, not cap iron not anything.

It only requires a ruler and a suitably fine flat stone.

Most of the people who criticize it either have an individual reason to do so or no experience with it. Most of the people who despise it also complain about sharpening hard irons. And most people would have a better quality edge and sharper edge if they used it.

I have no qualms about the ruler trick. Some of my older blades get it without the use of a ruler, in other words free handed.

In my opinion, juggling secondary bevels, the ruler trick and other methods may be overwhelming for someone who is still struggling to get to a sharp edge just to get started.

Sometimes when a problem develops the best solution is returning to the basics instead of applying every new trick in the book.

The blade from the LN 62 can be a difficult blade to sharpen for one who hasn't put a thick blade to stone before owning one. The wide bevel can be a challenge to keep moving on the stone.

If nothing else, my suggestion to set up the plane on edge grain before trying it on end grain still stands. If one can not get the plane to work on edge grain, it isn't going to be dazzling on end grain either.

If the blade shaves hair but not wood, then there is likely something amiss with how the plane is being set up. What might be best if after reading all of the suggestions offered Rich still experiences trouble may for him to seek out someone who can help him one on one.

jtk

[Erik Manchester]

Rich,

I cannot add anything to what Derek and others have provided above as far as technique goes. When I think I have a blade in really fine shape I take a quick look at the cutting edge with this cheap little handheld microscope from LV as it has its own illumination and magnifies from 20-40X which really helps my tired eyes see whether the bevel is truly polished all the way to the edge or whether further work is required. I use it as well when sharpening saws to get a close look at the teeth. Not a bad tool for $12.

250291


http://www.leevalley.com/en/gifts/page.aspx?cat=4,53201&p=64257

Though I have the Veritas sharpening guide, I do not use it unless rehabilitating an old blade or changing the bevel angle as I find that with the thicker blades I can do a satisfactory job freehand in much quicker fashion than fiddling with the jigs each time I need to touch up an edge. So far everything seems to be working for me, and it only gets faster and more consistant with practice.

[Jim Koepke]

The ruler trick is NOT what is making or breaking this guys sharpening. So Rich, if your blade is ruler tricked keep ruler tricking it, if its not, take the time to make sure the back of the cutting edge is adequately polished all the way to the edge. That's what matters, fresh polished steel at the cutting edge.

My feeling exactly.

Get the basics to work before trying to jazz it up.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

If the blade shaves hair but not wood, then there is likely something amiss with how the plane is being set up. What might be best if after reading all of the suggestions offered Rich still experiences trouble may for him to seek out someone who can help him one on one.

jtk

Agreed. I'm still not sure this is a sharpening issue. Even though there are definitely levels of sharpness above shaving hair, if his blade is shaving hair easily it should cut end grain reasonably well too. I really wonder if this is a plane setup issue and not sharpening.

[Jim Koepke]

Agreed. I'm still not sure this is a sharpening issue. Even though there are definitely levels of sharpness above shaving hair, if his blade is shaving hair easily it should cut end grain reasonably well too. I really wonder if this is a plane setup issue and not sharpening.

That is why one of my suggestions was to get back to the basics of testing the plane on edge grain.

Work one step at a time instead of trying to squeeze in multiple steps. With one step at a time, if something doesn't work, it was likely the last step where it stopped working.

jtk

[Jason Coen]

My feeling exactly.

Get the basics to work before trying to jazz it up.

jtk

Maybe this is a quibble over terminology, but the ruler "trick"....isn't. It's no more fancy or jazzed up than simply polishing the non-beveled side flat on the stone. One is as simple and repeatable as the other.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe this is a quibble over terminology, but the ruler "trick"....isn't. It's no more fancy or jazzed up than simply polishing the non-beveled side flat on the stone. One is as simple and repeatable as the other.

Is it an absolutely necessity in order to make a plane work?

Is getting something to work with the basic parameters supplied by the maker the wrong way to proceed?

jtk

[David Weaver]

Jim - my comments weren't directed at you, my apologies if it looked like that. They were more generalization because there's been some very long drawn out discussions before and everyone in them is present in the thread who usually gets in on them except for Larry.

[Rich Seifert]

All, thanks so much for your replies and suggestions - this is exceptionally helpful and I intend to try some new processes tomorrow.

Stu, I am very much looking forward to any videos you can share--especially if they emphasize a more "practical" sharpening technique, from set-up to cleanliness and avoiding cross-contamination, while minimizing time. My process requires that I leave the shop to go upstairs to access running water and wide-open granite space ... it isn't practical (my wife doesn't appreciate it as much as I don't like the time-bust from leaving the shop). I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how you keep it simple and practical...

Thanks again!
Rich

[Jason Coen]

Is it an absolutely necessity in order to make a plane work?

Is polishing the back at the cutting edge absolutely necessary? I think so.


Is getting something to work with the basic parameters supplied by the maker the wrong way to proceed?

jtk

Your supposition is that the "ruler trick" is outside "the basic parameters supplied by the maker"?

Skip ahead to 2:00 or thereabouts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F7q5WGb4ZA&sns=em

[Jim Koepke]

Your supposition is that the "ruler trick" is outside "the basic parameters supplied by the maker"?

Of my three planes purchased from Lie-Nielsen, none have come with the back prepared using the ruler trick.

If someone wants to use it, it doesn't bother me. My thoughts is when a person is having problems with using a tool the place to start is with the basics instead of tossing out all kinds of different steps that are more the preferences of individuals than what makes the tool work.

If there is something wrong with going for the simplest most straight forward approach, please enlighten me.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Ruler trick? never heard of it, let alone used it. Don't even know the grits of three oil stones I use for my planes and chisels. I try for flat, polished backs, and a nice sharp edge. Micro bevels? Have no way to measure them. My Veritas MKI Honing guide does have three "stops" on it, I guess that means 1 degree of change. I USUALLY set it at 25 degrees, and go from there. So far, so good, Mirrored backs? Ah not really, close. But since most of mine are bevel down, the chipbreaker is the only thing seeing itself.

Question about bevel down irons (yes, they still make them) do you also polish the area behind the bevel? As this rests on the planes bed, wouldn't a polish surface "bed' better?

[Peter Hawser]

Bitter academic rivalries based on minutia pale in comparison to sharpening threads. What is truly "amazing" is with all these experts not one has yet to create a simple video that can clearly teach a newbie to get a sharp edge, something humans without electricity have done for centuries. Well, there is Lie Nielsen who simplified it and that makes perfect sense as it will help them and their customers, but I'm really looking forward to Stu's video. He sounds like someone who can both do and teach.

[Jason Coen]

Of my three planes purchased from Lie-Nielsen, none have come with the back prepared using the ruler trick.

None of mine have come with the back polished. Should I leave it that way?


If someone wants to use it, it doesn't bother me. My thoughts is when a person is having problems with using a tool the place to start is with the basics instead of tossing out all kinds of different steps that are more the preferences of individuals than what makes the tool work.

What makes an iron sharp is simply the intersection of two planes that has a radius approaching 0. The closer to zero the sharper the iron. Polishing the back flat and using the ruler track are two different ways of reaching the same goal.

What "all kinds of different steps" do you think are involved here? It couldn't be any more simple.


If there is something wrong with going for the simplest most straight forward approach, please enlighten me.

jtk

I don't know how else to say it other than the ruler trick is simply another way to produce a polished back. It's no more complicated, and I'd say actually easier. It's faster. It's repeatable. It harms nothing.

Is there some other ruler trick out there that I'm unaware of that's apparently complicated? There must be, as we are apparently talking about different methods.

[Stuart Tierney]

It's really difficult to get this on video actually. Mainly it's a character flaw, I like things to be 'perfect' and the great production quality of what's already out there makes my past efforts look pretty amateurish.

Which puts me into analysis paralysis. Do I "just do it" or make it better or...

Oddly, actually speaking in front of large groups isn't an issue. If I can keep the attention of 600 elementary school students while speaking a language they can barely identify, let alone understand, I figure that I must be able to do the whole 'public speaking' thing well enough, the speaking part is optional. ;)

I'll get on it, as much as I can.

Stu.

[steven c newman]

Seems that on the irons i use, and some are quite thick 100+ yr old ones, that all i need to worry about UNDER the bevel area is about 3 mm long. And 2mm is covered by the chipbreaker, So, all I am doing is making sure the two mate together, flawlessly, IN the space. Anything further back is a wasted effort. I am talking about the bevel DOWN planes i use, including a large group of Union Mfg Co. planes. I also worry about HOW said irons bed to the plane's body. Would a polished surface help out there? There is a larger area to polish, though. Maybe 1/2 long, or more. And, what about the area ON the plane where ANY iron beds down? Is it machined mirrior bright? So smooth that an iron would almost stick to it, and become "one" with the plane's body? There is a whole system here, not just the edge of the blade, that has to be considerd here.

[Jim Koepke]

My apologies Peter,


What is truly "amazing" is with all these experts not one has yet to create a simple video that can clearly teach a newbie to get a sharp edge, something humans without electricity have done for centuries.

Humans without electricity have been making videos for centuries? :confused:

It is late and my inner child just couldn't resist. Your message is clear.

Makes me think what Frank Klausz answered when asked what angle he uses on his chisels. His answer was "sharp."

There are a great number of videos, some clear, showing different methods to get a sharp edge.

Peter Sellers uses a method producing a convex bevel. It seems to work for him.

Some like to camber their blades. The methods to camber are almost as numerous as theories on sharpening. Some of my blades are cambered for specific uses.

Some like secondary bevels and even tertiary bevels some only when the secondary bevel gets too big.

Then there are back bevels and the ruler trick.

For me, flat bevel and flat back seems to work quite well. For most of my bevel down blades their angle is not known. Most of the time my practice has been to leave blades ground to the angle at which they came to me. This is usually in the 25-30º range for plane blades.

Most of my sharpening is done free hand. That isn't conducive to secondary bevels.

Let us not forget stropping a blade. A blade fresh from my polishing stone can shave hair. Too many swipes on the strop can round over an edge. Not sure if it would be a good idea to toss stropping in the mix for someone who is trying to get their plane working.

BTW, many of my planes worked fine without polishing the back to a mirror polish. With a super polish on both sides of the blade shavings of less than 0.001" have come off of some of my planes. Makes a high shine on some woods. With unpolished backs they can still pull a shaving of less than 0.002".

jtk

[Charlie Stanford]

Was there a point to be made in all that amazement, or was it just more self back-patting condescension?

If you disagree with the ruler trick, please enlighten us to why your chosen method is superior. You've typed many words in this thread, and even whole sentences, but you've yet to produce a reason why one is superior to the other.

A poor execution of the ruler trick could very well be the cause of the man's problems. It's that simple. He needs to go back to basics - check angles, flatten and put a little polish on the face, just hone the bloody iron before he implements tricks and involved protocols calling for all sorts of implements and technique he may not have mastered.

I'd put the iron in the roller jig and grind a fresh bevel and then work it all the way through the grits and then polish the back. Unplug the Worksharp, put away the ruler. Flat grind with ONE JIG from rough through to finish and then polish the back with the cutter flat on the stone. Frankly, at this point I wouldn't even put a steeper microbevel on the thing (against my earlier post) - just grind and hone at 25* to blistering sharp. And, again, use only one jig.

[Harold Burrell]

I'm working on a video to help you guys out, and believe me, you'll be shocked at how reckless I am compared to some of you guys. I just slap-a-dap-a-dap and a razor pops out the other side.




It's really difficult to get this on video actually. Mainly it's a character flaw, I like things to be 'perfect' and the great production quality of what's already out there makes my past efforts look pretty amateurish.

Which puts me into analysis paralysis. Do I "just do it" or make it better or...



Dude...Seriously???

Here we poor slobs are...hungry for information...dying to get good at this sharpening thing...hanging on your every word...standing in LINE to see your video...and then you tease us.

For shame...

What are you waiting for? J.J. Abrams to produce it??? Or perhaps your working out your forearms so they look all "buff" and everything? Come on! Make the video already! We don't care what it looks like. We don't care what YOU look like. We would even care if you did it in your underwear!





OK...wait...I didn't mean the whole "underwear" thing. In fact, just the thought of it made me throw up in my mouth. :eek:

[Charlie Stanford]

A poor execution of the ruler trick could very well be the cause of the man's problems. It's that simple. He needs to go back to basics - check angles, flatten and put a little polish on the face, just hone the bloody iron before he implements tricks and involved protocols calling for all sorts of implements and technique he may not have mastered.

I'd put the iron in the roller jig and grind a fresh bevel and then work it all the way through the grits and then polish the back. Unplug the Worksharp, put away the ruler. Flat grind with ONE JIG from rough through to finish and then polish the back with the cutter flat on the stone. Frankly, at this point I wouldn't even put a steeper microbevel on the thing (against my earlier post) - just grind and hone at 25* to blistering sharp. And, again, use only one jig.

I think at this point any advice that has this fellow microbeveling and ruler tricking is simply off base and unproductive. Sharp edges can be obtained without these. He needs to get back to basics - intersection of two edges produced with as little Sturm and Drang as possible.

[Jason Coen]

I think at this point any advice that has this fellow microbeveling and ruler tricking is simply off base and unproductive. Sharp edges can be obtained without these. He needs to get back to basics - intersection of two edges produced with as little Sturm and Drang as possible.

Sharp edges certainly can be achieved without those methods. You say it's more complicated, I say it's less complicated. We'll have to somehow discover a manner in which we can happily live our lives in disagreement.

I do agree completely that he needs to stick to a single jig. So we've got that going for us. :cool:

[Jim Matthews]

I've recently switched from using a guide and Shapton stones to diamond stones and an abrasive charged strop.

The backs of the irons and chisels are maintained flat, but you only need the first inch or so to be flat.
(Most things I run the chisel through are to 3/4" depth. Even through mortises are cut this way (1/2 from each side).

I grind a convex bevel on both plane irons and chisels.

I suspect that the last step, on the strop is responsible for the recent improvement in performance.
The grinding of a convex bevel has lead to a MUCH faster process.

I'm progressing from barely cutting to so sharp as I can make a blade in about 5 minutes.

I was skeptical, and now wish I had seen this before I bought all the other stuff.


Even if you employ stones, or some other method, a charged strop will make a clear difference in the performance of your cutting edge.

[Jason Coen]

I was skeptical, and now wish I had seen this before I bought all the other stuff.



Stropping seems to be one of those things that is so obvious that it gets overlooked. Or maybe it's that it's so simple that it's ignored. Whatever the reason, for woodworking purposes, it's very tough to beat an edge finished on a piece of MDF or leather that's been charged with the green stuff. And even if you do get a "better" edge, I'd say you're far beyond what is needed for wood.

Oilstones and a strop produce an edge that is functionally as good as any synthetic stone (and most edges coming off synthetic stones can benefit from stropping). The synthetic stones simply do it faster.

[Charlie Stanford]

Sharp edges certainly can be achieved without those methods. You say it's more complicated, I say it's less complicated. We'll have to somehow discover a manner in which we can happily live our lives in disagreement.

I do agree completely that he needs to stick to a single jig. So we've got that going for us. :cool:

The OP was, in essence, being told to basically just rub some more. He'd rubbed enough. The problem is somewhere else, almost for sure some aspect of honked up geometry resulting in too high a cutting angle or just plain managing to dub the thing over. To me, it's the only explanation that makes any sense.

[Charlie Stanford]

I have no qualms about the ruler trick. Some of my older blades get it without the use of a ruler, in other words free handed.

In my opinion, juggling secondary bevels, the ruler trick and other methods may be overwhelming for someone who is still struggling to get to a sharp edge just to get started.

Sometimes when a problem develops the best solution is returning to the basics instead of applying every new trick in the book.

The blade from the LN 62 can be a difficult blade to sharpen for one who hasn't put a thick blade to stone before owning one. The wide bevel can be a challenge to keep moving on the stone.

If nothing else, my suggestion to set up the plane on edge grain before trying it on end grain still stands. If one can not get the plane to work on edge grain, it isn't going to be dazzling on end grain either.

If the blade shaves hair but not wood, then there is likely something amiss with how the plane is being set up. What might be best if after reading all of the suggestions offered Rich still experiences trouble may for him to seek out someone who can help him one on one.

jtk

If the iron will shave hair in a clean swath but cuts lousy when inserted into a plane applied to wood there is no doubt it's an issue with honing geometry. None whatsoever, IMO.

[Rich Seifert]

Hello folks. I have an exciting update. My lovely wife bought me a few new planes for Christmas - the two I played with today were a Bronze 102 Low Angle Block Plane and a 97-1/2 Small Chisel Plane. I unboxed them and put the factory-prepped 25* blades on the stones I bought from Stu. I soaked the 1200 and 6000 for about 5 minutes while I prepped the kitchen. The 13000 soaked for 2 minutes and then I removed it from the tub, only to spritz as needed thereafter. Using the Mk-II Honing Guide, I set the primary bevel for 30* and followed Stu's instructions, with one exception between stones: I added Derek Cohen's step, "Leave the blade in the honing guide, don't touch the settings ... remove wire with sideways action (on the 13000 stone)." Despite the varying opinions, I finished with the ruler trick, which I'm rather comfortable with. Something I hadn't done enough of before what the palm stropping ... it's amazing ... even after I washed the blade, I got a lot of metal off the blade with a good palm stropping. After 4 or 5 strops on each the front and back sides of the blade, I repeated the stropping on my thigh (jeans). Bottom line: I achieved "wicked sharpness" ... the weight of the blade alone pushed right through paper. Nice! I trust I couldn't have done it without all of your assistance. I tried both planes and I was extremely pleased with their performance ... perfect, transparent shavings from poplar, even from the chisel plane (which I realize is not intended to be used this way) but the blade was so sharp, that it actually planed well! At this point, you have taught me the basics and I believe I can duplicate the process with the bigger, more difficult 62 blade.

Since I'm off tomorrow, I'm planning to try re-sharpening 5 more blades (an old Stanley 220 blade--my beater for planing plywood). I also have 4 blades for my LN 9-1/2 and 60-1/2 Adjustable Mouth Block Planes. I need to re-sharpen those blades from the initial grind on up, using what I've learned. Finally, I intend to culminate with the 62 blade.

The process I'll use is as follows:
- Use the Mk-II honing guide and re-grind a new, straight, primary bevel using the WorkSharp
- Use a marker to mark the edge to grind the old edge off completely
- Ensure the grind is straight and perpendicular with a 3" Starrett machinist square
- Move on to the stones and proceed as I did today (Stu's instructions with Derek's addition) with extra attention to the light and magnifier to view scratch patterns.

Given this particular 62 blade is dedicated for the shooting board, I will not ease the corners. Once I'm comfortable that I'm getting repeatable results, I'll then move on to the other three 62 blades, which will have cambered edges. But one step at a time.

So, one more question, given Jim Mathews' and Jason Cohen's comments about stropping. After I've used the blade and need to touch it up, I'll use the Mk-II Honing Guide to duplicate the microbevel angle and then: (a) power strop on the WorkSharp Leather Wheel charged with Lee Valley green compound? Or (b) use MDF charged with Lee Valley green compound? Or (c) use a horsebutt strip of leather (charged or not), or (d) use the 13000 for a few passes? And how many passes? How will I know when I'm done?

Thanks again!
Rich

[David Weaver]

Sharpen your plane blades with your stones, and leave the quick strop (be it a strop, MDF or a finish stone) touch ups for chisels. Use the planes until the cut quality doesn't suit you, so that you're not constantly taking a plane apart to keep it sharp enough that a finish stone or strop alone will keep it in shape.

Personally, if you want to make a strop for touch ups, I'd do the MDF and green stuff route. Horse butt leather is nice, but if I made the comment earlier, it was only brought up to point out that horse butt is more useful than cow leather if it's going to be loaded. It isn't necessary, and since we don't slaughter horses here in the US by trade, it's expensive. Plus, if you you have a strop in your shop, eventually it will become contaminated. If you cut a stone size piece of MDF off of a sheet, you're talking less than a dollar, plus you could sand dust or dirt off or sand it to recondition the surface. Leather isn't as forgiving.

[Derek Cohen]

Well done Rich!

Stick to one successful method until it becomes second nature to you.

I am tempted to say do not strop at this stage. Use the opportunity to practice resharpening. However, if you do wish to strop to refresh the edge, then consider this ..

Since you have a micro secondary bevel on the blade, you cannot strop this side and retain the bevel angle unless you are using the honing guide on a flat strop. Be careful to only pull the blade backwards. Ditto when stropping the back of the blade - if you used the RT, then this must continue.

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

[Stuart Tierney]

Good to hear.

And once you can get those kind of results every time you leave the sharpening gear, then you can experiment and try other things. Or not, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

:)

Stu.

(Just an FYI, I never strop anything with more than my jeans or my palm, depending on what the last stone was. I'd say why, but it'll make this thread even uglier than it already is...)

[Jason Coen]

Sharpen your plane blades with your stones, and leave the quick strop (be it a strop, MDF or a finish stone) touch ups for chisels. Use the planes until the cut quality doesn't suit you, so that you're not constantly taking a plane apart to keep it sharp enough that a finish stone or strop alone will keep it in shape.

Personally, if you want to make a strop for touch ups, I'd do the MDF and green stuff route. Horse butt leather is nice, but if I made the comment earlier, it was only brought up to point out that horse butt is more useful than cow leather if it's going to be loaded. It isn't necessary, and since we don't slaughter horses here in the US by trade, it's expensive. Plus, if you you have a strop in your shop, eventually it will become contaminated. If you cut a stone size piece of MDF off of a sheet, you're talking less than a dollar, plus you could sand dust or dirt off or sand it to recondition the surface. Leather isn't as forgiving.

Couldn't have said it better. If an iron comes out of a plane it's going to hit the stones, chisels are constantly touched up while I'm working.

I did/do use the green stuff on MDF because I'm more likely to leave it out and accessible since the MDF off-cut is essentially free. I can leave the MDF strop out on the bench while working and not give it a second thought. Like was said, it's probably going to get contaminated at some point. I go through one about every three months. If I think it may have some junk on it, I pitch it without a second thought. I also like the MDF because, and someone may have mentioned this in this thread, it has less give than leather. It may be just a mental thing, but I'm more confident I'm not rounding the edge when using MDF as a substrate.

Good to hear things are working better. Sharpening can be frustrating at first, like trying to drink water from a firehose. Once you get your first really good edge, the next will be easier. It's all about figuring out what works best for you, and even that can and will change over the years. My sharpening REALLY improved when I started working on profiled moulding plane irons several years ago. By no means do I get the best edges in the world, but I'm happy with the results and, most importantly to me, can get them quickly. I'm interested in sharpening just enough to learn how best to get a truly sharp edge in the shortest amount of time. I'm far more interested in making edges dull on wood than making them sharp on stones (though David's interesting stones thread is pulling me towards the dark side - I think some of that stuff is fascinating).

[Jason Coen]

Since you have a micro secondary bevel on the blade, you cannot strop this side and retain the bevel angle unless you are using the honing guide on a flat strop. Be careful to only pull the blade backwards. Ditto when stropping the back of the blade - if you used the RT, then this must continue.

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

Good point. I now only strop my hollow-ground chisels, and once in a blue moon I'll freehand a plane blade across a strop at a slightly higher angle if it's to the point of needing the primary bevel chased back.





(Just an FYI, I never strop anything with more than my jeans or my palm, depending on what the last stone was. I'd say why, but it'll make this thread even uglier than it already is...)

Out of pure curiosity - why for, homey?

[Stuart Tierney]

Out of pure curiosity - why for, homey?

Well, there is a saying that "You can't polish a 'small piece of fecal matter", but apparently you can, in fact, polish a small piece of fecal matter...

I think the saying should be altered to "You shouldn't polish a 'small piece of fecal matter'"...

If the edge isn't already in good shape, stropping isn't going to make it magically better. Superficially sharper perhaps, but it's still a 'small piece of fecal matter' and a nice, polished finish isn't going to change that, is it? And that bit of sharp is going to be flee(t)ing, which means you're continually polishing that small piece of fecal matter.

But what do I know?

Stu.

[Jim Koepke]

Yeah, HHT is sort of a judge of the top end of edges, if it's done properly. arm hair shave is valuable, too, just judging by how easily a blade will shave arm hair. A medium stone edge (like 1k) will shave hair before it does end grain nicely, so it's more a test of how easily if you're looking for sharp.

If you're way out on the outer edges of sharpness where your tools would pass the the HHT at 3 or above, or anywhere around there, always do a quick light palm strop with a clean palm to make sure there's nothing remaining at the edge.

Sort of in the weeds kind of sharpness for woodworking, but not if you're sharpening carving tools.

A well sharpened straight razor will catch and cut hairs a good distance away from the arm. That's the kind of edge that I described in some prior posts where I mentioned the best natural stones bringing any hard steel to a bright polish. A hazy finish won't get there. A superb razor stone that holds its grit and imparts a fine uniform indistinguishable polish (one where you see no scratches of any type) will get there pretty easily.

It seems sharpness testing may boil down to how which test is used and interpreted. It is much easier to cut a short hair near its support than a long hair dangling in space. How about dropping a hair on the blade from 5"? Now that would be sharp.

One legend told to me by a friend about ceremonies involved in sharpening samurai swords included testing by cutting a piece of silk dropped onto the blade from a short distance.

We can look at our edges with microscopes. We may be able just look at the edge and see the "spider's web" sparkling in the light.

We can also just put them to work and see if they do as we wish.

jtk

[Jason Coen]

Well, there is a saying that "You can't polish a 'small piece of fecal matter", but apparently you can, in fact, polish a small piece of fecal matter...

I think the saying should be altered to "You shouldn't polish a 'small piece of fecal matter'"...

If the edge isn't already in good shape, stropping isn't going to make it magically better. Superficially sharper perhaps, but it's still a 'small piece of fecal matter' and a nice, polished finish isn't going to change that, is it? And that bit of sharp is going to be flee(t)ing, which means you're continually polishing that small piece of fecal matter.

But what do I know?

Stu.

Hmmmm, interesting perspective. What is the functional difference you see between an MDF strop charged with the green stuff and a stone of comparable grit?

[Michael Ray Smith]

And thank you for reminding me that while I can sharpen stuff with a coffee cup,. . . . .


Stu -- you just reminded me of something I had not thought of in decades. I remember my frugal (read: cheap) uncle sharpening his safety razor blades with small drinking glass to get a few more shaves out of them. He'd put a little water in the glass and hold the razor blade vertically against the inside wall of the glass so that it followed the curve. Then he'd swipe it back and forth a few dozen times on each side of the blade. I dunno -- he said it worked but I never tried.

Mike

[David Weaver]

But what do I know?

Stu.

It makes a significant difference with oilstones, especially if your last sharpening step is something like Charles has professed to abide by often in stride with work.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to do it off of super fine synthetic stones, though, but on something in between it gives you the chance to inspect the keenness of the edge and not the wire edge if you're checking (something like a 6k stone). A palm strop does that fine.

The leather, however, needs to be clean enough and smooth enough that it doesn't do *bad* things to the edge.

Consider the translucents edge looks about identical to the chinese 12k edge in these pictures (particles about the same size, fine edge is produced only when they are held still). Pretty easy to tell why the leather won't do much to improve the initial keenness of the norton, it would have to wear off a significant portion of the edge to get through the schmutz right at the edge. With the natural stones, if the wire edge is removed by the strop, there isn't an edge so unevenly serrated.

Two other things of note from the pictures, it's exceedingly unusual to find any stone that can't be improved by chromium oxide powder on balsa or hard leather, and there's some visual proof that nobody will ever hone an edge to match the feather. Which any bleeding shaver attest to.

[David Weaver]

Stu -- you just reminded me of something I had not thought of in decades. I remember my frugal (read: cheap) uncle sharpening his safety razor blades with small drinking glass to get a few more shaves out of them. He'd put a little water in the glass and hold the razor blade vertically against the inside wall of the glass so that it followed the curve. Then he'd swipe it back and forth a few dozen times on each side of the blade. I dunno -- he said it worked but I never tried.

Mike

It works, probably worked better on older uncoated blades, though. Same principle as using a knife steel. There were various glass razor hones marketed back when saftey razor blades were still carbon steel.

[David Weaver]

Hmmmm, interesting perspective. What is the functional difference you see between an MDF strop charged with the green stuff and a stone of comparable grit?

If the chromium oxide is graded powder or a compound bought from a razor shop that is chromium oxide only, the edge will be better off the chromium oxide than any stone I've seen and used (which includes 1/2 micron stones like the shapton 30k, the give on MDF or balsa allows the chromium oxide to cut more finely). But the difference so marginal that you'd never notice it in woodworking, only shaving.

The SP13k, which is the only reasonable really fine synthetic stone, will probably be nicer to use and cut faster, though. And if you get dirty stuff on the surface, you can just lap it off and go fresh.

If you're looking for sharper than chromium oxide powder on a hard strop, though, you won't find a stone that creates a sharper edge.

[Michael Ray Smith]

None of mine have come with the back polished. Should I leave it that way? )



The replacement blades I recently bought from Lee Valley have a dull gray finish. If I recall correctly, the literature Rob's folks packed with the blade said that is the result of the lapping process they use and that further polishing makes the surface look shinier but does nothing to improve the edge of the blade. Their recommendation is not to touch the backs of their blades unless the surface actually gets damaged, and I'm strongly inclined to follow their advice (keeping with Jim's philosophy of doing what the manufacturer says to do before getting creative. . . . sort of like sticking to the trail through the woods for a while before bushwhacking cross-country with a map/compass or GPS). Of course, that leaves me with the question of how to remove the wire burr that's formed from sharpening the bevel, and so far I've left it until the end (which is NOT what I usually do when I'm sharpening an old blade with a polished back) and removed it very gently with the least abrasive medium that will do the trick -- and by tilting the blade up ever so slightly, which I suppose approximates the "ruler trick." Even though I don't actually use the ruler trick in any other context.

[Jason Coen]

If the chromium oxide is graded powder or a compound bought from a razor shop that is chromium oxide only, the edge will be better off the chromium oxide than any stone I've seen and used (which includes 1/2 micron stones like the shapton 30k, the give on MDF or balsa allows the chromium oxide to cut more finely). But the difference so marginal that you'd never notice it in woodworking, only shaving.

The SP13k, which is the only reasonable really fine synthetic stone, will probably be nicer to use and cut faster, though. And if you get dirty stuff on the surface, you can just lap it off and go fresh.

If you're looking for sharper than chromium oxide powder on a hard strop, though, you won't find a stone that creates a sharper edge.

Never used the graded powder or the CrOx-only sticks. I'm guessing the typical woodworking green crayon has a bit of larger particles added to speed cutting? Don't know what it would average out to - 0.8 or so? Less than 1, more than 0.5.

The SP 13k does leave as nice an edge as the typical green crayon used in woodworking, which is something even the Cho 10k didn't do. Cuts quick, too, especially so considering the size. Highly, highly impressed with that stone.

Curious as to see where/how/why Stu formed that opinion.

[Derek Cohen]

The replacement blades I recently bought from Lee Valley have a dull gray finish. If I recall correctly, the literature Rob's folks packed with the blade said that is the result of the lapping process they use and that further polishing makes the surface look shinier but does nothing to improve the edge of the blade. Their recommendation is not to touch the backs of their blades unless the surface actually gets damaged, and I'm strongly inclined to follow their advice (keeping with Jim's philosophy of doing what the manufacturer says to do before getting creative. . . . sort of like sticking to the trail through the woods for a while before bushwhacking cross-country with a map/compass or GPS). Of course, that leaves me with the question of how to remove the wire burr that's formed from sharpening the bevel, and so far I've left it until the end (which is NOT what I usually do when I'm sharpening an old blade with a polished back) and removed it very gently with the least abrasive medium that will do the trick -- and by tilting the blade up ever so slightly, which I suppose approximates the "ruler trick." Even though I don't actually use the ruler trick in any other context.

Hi Michael

The backs of the blades appear dull and gray simply because they do not reflect light the way a polished bevel face does. LV uses a machine to grind and polish the surface that moves in a random orbit, and as a result the scratch pattern is not regular. (I have watched this process). There is a similarity here with the use of natural waterstones in that the dull finish does not indicate the high level of flatness/smoothness that one associates with polish (more typical of man made stones where the grit is more uniform).

Nevertheless I always polish both sides of the bevel equally. In any event, the back of the blade will need to be polished after the first use since it will become worn.

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

[David Weaver]

Never used the graded powder or the CrOx-only sticks. I'm guessing the typical woodworking green crayon has a bit of larger particles added to speed cutting? Don't know what it would average out to - 0.8 or so? Less than 1, more than 0.5.

The SP 13k does leave as nice an edge as the typical green crayon used in woodworking, which is something even the Cho 10k didn't do. Cuts quick, too, especially so considering the size. Highly, highly impressed with that stone.

Curious as to see where/how/why Stu formed that opinion.

Yes, it's more aluminum oxide than chromium oxide, and I think the max particle size in it is 6 microns, but I don't know the average - less than one I'd guess. There's only enough fairly large (relatively) particles in it just to show up as small scratches on the bevel.

Graded powder (pure chromium oxide III) that is 1/2 micron grade of 1/3rd micron grade will be finer, but it will be slower commensurate with the size. If you have one of the 1 micron sized stones, no reason to use it, but it does make a nice thing to load a hard touch-up strop with. The powder and paste are fairly cheap, similar in price to a wax stick. It can be graded up to a few microns in size, though, so if you're needling away at the end of the sharpening envelope chasing something out of curiosity, make sure it's graded to a half micron or something like that.

[Stuart Tierney]

Hmmmm, interesting perspective. What is the functional difference you see between an MDF strop charged with the green stuff and a stone of comparable grit?

What I'm trying to say is to not 'strop to sharp'. An edge that's in poor shape, but has been stropped/polished to sharp is still an edge in poor shape and the perceived speed in stropping that junky edge to sharp is going to be repeated enough that you would have been better off making the blade properly sharp in the first place.

If you've got a nice, smooth edge and you strop it to add or enhance sharpness, great. Go for it. If you have to strop to make the edge sharp then don't be surprised if you find you need to strop quite often.

I've got bits of MDF with green stuff on them in my workshop, I've got a hard felt buff on my grinder, it's not like I've never stropped and edge before and it is likely I will strop an edge in the future again. But I also learned real fast that if I put a poor edge to the strop, I'd be sharpening again real quick. If the edge was already respectable, then that edge needed a lot less attention whether I stropped or not.

Now, I don't find a need to strop with compounds. Some folks will continue to do so to bring their already decent edges up to a sharper level and that's good. But some folks will use stropping with compounds to make blunt instruments into apparently sharp ones, and then they'll tell us all how much time they're saving and how stupid we all are for wasting time with other methods.

(I thought like that for a while, until I realized that 2+2+2 (minutes to make and maintain a crap edge) does not equal 4 (minutes to make the edge right in the first place)...

YMMV,

Stu.

[Jason Coen]

What I'm trying to say is to not 'strop to sharp'.

--snipped excellence--

(I thought like that for a while, until I realized that 2+2+2 (minutes to make and maintain a crap edge) does not equal 4 (minutes to make the edge right in the first place)...

YMMV,

Stu.

Ahhh, gotcha. Good points. Nothing to find disagreement with there.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/USPcompact/ef4e4b7865225f1ca384b76aa875a08d.jpg

[Harold Burrell]

What I'm trying to say is to not 'strop to sharp'. An edge that's in poor shape, but has been stropped/polished to sharp is still an edge in poor shape and the perceived speed in stropping that junky edge to sharp is going to be repeated enough that you would have been better off making the blade properly sharp in the first place.

If you've got a nice, smooth edge and you strop it to add or enhance sharpness, great. Go for it. If you have to strop to make the edge sharp then don't be surprised if you find you need to strop quite often.

I've got bits of MDF with green stuff on them in my workshop, I've got a hard felt buff on my grinder, it's not like I've never stropped and edge before and it is likely I will strop an edge in the future again. But I also learned real fast that if I put a poor edge to the strop, I'd be sharpening again real quick. If the edge was already respectable, then that edge needed a lot less attention whether I stropped or not.

Now, I don't find a need to strop with compounds. Some folks will continue to do so to bring their already decent edges up to a sharper level and that's good. But some folks will use stropping with compounds to make blunt instruments into apparently sharp ones, and then they'll tell us all how much time they're saving and how stupid we all are for wasting time with other methods.

(I thought like that for a while, until I realized that 2+2+2 (minutes to make and maintain a crap edge) does not equal 4 (minutes to make the edge right in the first place)...

YMMV,

Stu.

Here's how I am seeing in my "mind's eye" what you are talking about here, as best as I can describe...

You work an edge on some stones and get a good clean "0" radius across the length of the blade. You then put the blade to work. Over the course of time and usage you not only round over the edge, but you also introduce some little bitty cracks and splits and nicks.

You take the blade to the strop. You will get the edge back to, at least, closer to the original "0" radius...though probably not AS close as before. On top of that, you have not addressed the nicks and cracks and splits. Therefore, not really sharpening 100% of the edge.

From there it only continues to follow that cycle...and get worse...



Anyway...that's my perception. Am I even close???

[David Weaver]

Now, I don't find a need to strop with compounds.

Yeah. That. Bare leather is nice for woodworking, keeps you from burying issues and easily removes the wire edge from anything all the way down to a soft arkansas.

[Jeff Heath]

Go figure.....what a surprise. Another long diatribe about sharpening 61 (now 62) posts long.

Worksharp, Tormek, sandpaper, oilstones, waterstones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, more sandpaper, leather, mdf, honing guides, ruler tricks, no ruler tricks, back bevel, micro-bevel, 2° micro-bevel, ear oil, nose oil,.......sheesh!

This has got to be really confusing to new woodworkers who are trying to really learn how to sharpen in their shops/garages/ basements/kitchens and no having a clue which of the 10 or so different sides to take in this 'discussion'.

If the OP is really having trouble, you should find someone who lives close to you who is a proficient woodworker, go to their shop, and learn what you're doing wrong in about 15 minutes. If you were close to me, I'd have you sharpening your plane and chisel irons in short order and putting them back to work without all the gadgetry.

A sharp edge is very simple......it's the geometric intersection of two extremely flat and polished metal surfaces. A skilled woodworker can take any chisel and perform two tasks to it on a 1000 grit waterstone; flatten the back (until it's completely flat) and make a 25° bevel. Do the same to any plane iron and it will work just fine. For finer work, polish to a higher shine to both flat surfaces and do the same.

That's how it's been done for hundred's of years, and take a look at all the fine work that was turned out in the 18th century.

Geometrically speaking, ruler tricks and all that other gadgetry can be really viewed as shortcuts to the end task of putting iron to wood. In my opinion, it's not a good step to follow for a beginning woodworker, because it introduces more steps where things can simply go wrong. If you round over an edge in the slightest bit, you dull it. It's just that simple.

That's how I teach sharpening in my shop, and I've never had anybody walk out of my shop that couldn't get a sharp edge on a chisel or iron after one session. Put the short cuts in at a later date after you've become proficient at understanding how to achieve a sharp, basic edge. After that, polish it to 500,000 grit on an Unobtainium cyberdiaper if you wish, with your hands tied behind your back, while watching your favorite cooking show. If you can get two flat, highly polished surfaces, in metal, to intersect at 25° to 35°, you will be able to get your tools to cut wood.

To the OP......if you want to drive to Crystal Lake, Illinois (or fly) I will gladly show you how quick and easy it is to get a sharp edge without all the gadgets. After that, you can spend all your extra money on them if you so desire.

Jeff

[David Weaver]

That's what happens when you try to substitute description for experience. The OP just needs experience. Experience first to get a good edge every time, and then more experience to figure out how to do it very quickly.

Would've been better off directing the OP to the TFWW video, or David Charlesworth or any number of folks who give you something you could do on the first try with certainty.

[george wilson]

When I was young,we were always poor. I sharpened my 50 cent chisel with a crappy old hardware 50 cent stone,and stropped it ON PAPER till it was quite sharp. Of course,that took a lot of elbow grease,which I am now short on.

[Billy Chambless]

When I was young,we were always poor. I sharpened my 50 cent chisel with a crappy old hardware 50 cent stone,and stropped it ON PAPER till it was quite sharp. Of course,that took a lot of elbow grease,which I am now short on.

These days, I find it helps to grease my elbows with a quality liniment before each sharpening session. I like Icy Hot or Absorbine Junior, but they're probably not period-correct for the work you do.


;)

[Pat Barry]

This whole discussion makes me appreciate the fact that for every problem there are multiple solutions and "best" is in the eye of the beholder.

[Harold Burrell]

When I was young,we were always poor. I sharpened my 50 cent chisel with a crappy old hardware 50 cent stone,and stropped it ON PAPER till it was quite sharp. Of course,that took a lot of elbow grease,which I am now short on.

Oh, yeah? Well...when I was a kid, we were so poor that I sharpened my 45 cent chisel on the neighbor's cat's TONGUE...and stropped it on his fur.



It worked pretty well.


It didn't take alot of elbow grease...but it did cost me some serious flesh, though...



;)

[Jason Coen]

Oh, yeah? Well...when I was a kid, we were so poor that I sharpened my 45 cent chisel on the neighbor's cat's TONGUE...and stropped it on his fur.



I worked pretty well.


It didn't take alot of elbow grease...but it did cost me some serious flesh, though...



;)

A man that picks up a cat by the tail learns a lesson he could not have learned any other way. --- Mark Twain

:D

[Jason Coen]

When I was young,we were always poor. I sharpened my 50 cent chisel with a crappy old hardware 50 cent stone,and stropped it ON PAPER till it was quite sharp. Of course,that took a lot of elbow grease,which I am now short on.

The first thing I ever used as a strop was a poke. My dad wouldn't let me use anything else, lest I destroy it. Like his anvil...

[george wilson]

THAT is POOR,Harold.:) I was serious,though! I had one of those real cheap chisels that had a blade stamped out of 1/8" flat steel,no taper to it,just flat,jammed into a plastic handle.

[Derek Cohen]

Oh, yeah? Well...when I was a kid, we were so poor that I sharpened my 45 cent chisel on the neighbor's cat's TONGUE...and stropped it on his fur.....
;)

You were so fortunate. When I was a kid we were so poor that I sharpened by 5c chisel (made from a tooth of a Great White that we had to wrestle to the shore ourselves) on the backside of a running/jumping kangaroo, and then stropped it on the sole of a heat-cracked bare foot.

It worked quite well ..

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

[Zach Dillinger]

You were so fortunate. When I was a kid we were so poor that I sharpened by 5c chisel (made from a tooth of a Great White that we had to wrestle to the shore ourselves) on the backside of a running/jumping kangaroo, and then stropped it on the sole of a heat-cracked bare foot.

It worked quite well ..

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

Congratulations on making me spill coffee all over one of my favorite shirts :) Too darn funny!

[george wilson]

Oh,you had the advantage of transportation!!!

[Jeff Heath]

When I was young,we were always poor. I sharpened my 50 cent chisel with a crappy old hardware 50 cent stone,and stropped it ON PAPER till it was quite sharp. Of course,that took a lot of elbow grease,which I am now short on.

Heck, I envied the poor kids when I was young. We had nothing.

I've still got my first block plane, and I should post a photo of it. It's one of the $3 hardware jobs that is blue and red. I made quite a bit of furniture for my first apartment with that plane and the 2 worst chisels ever made.

It almost always gets better from the beginning if you work at it.

Cheers,

Jeff

[Roy Lindberry]

Hello friends. Some of you may recall that I posted the topic, "End Grain Tearout Woes on the Shooting Board" a few weeks ago, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?195787-End-Grain-Tearout-Woes-on-the-Shooting-Board
and many of you provided your expert advice, which I truly appreciate. It turned out that my problem was (and still is) my sharpening. Shaving hair is clearly not a proper test of sharpness, so now I have a few questions about sharpening. In that previous post, John Coloccia asked:


This great question got me thinking. I have a WorkSharp for the initial Grinding Angle (it's a flat grind vs. a hollow-grind). I also use the Veritas Mk II Honing Guide for use with the WorkSharp and the stones. I also have a mirror-back on all of my blades, flattened initially on the WS, progressively through every sandpaper grit up to 1500, then final-polished on the 13000 stone, which I flattened with the Atoma diamond plate after every ~20 or so strokes of sharpening.

Here's where I need help with my sharpening routine:
1. Am I wasting time with an unnecessary grind, as John questioned? Should I just do an initial Grinding Angle on the WorkSharp, followed by a primary angle cutting on the stones and be done with it? So this would mean,


Set Grinding Angle on Mk II Jig, grind on Worksharp with 80-grit at 25 degree Grind Angle (for example)
Then add a 1 or 2 degree microbevel, with turn of thumbscrew
Switch to stones: PS II 1200 to for primary cutting angle ... 4 to 5 swipes or until wire edge detected (leave wire edge there)
Switch to PS 6000 stone ... 4 to 5 swipes with high finger pressure (wire edge still there)
Switch to PS13000 stone ... about 10 very soft swipes for polishing
Remove blade, flip over, use Charlesworth's ruler trick, on and off 13000 stone, to remove wire edge

When too time consuming (more than 10 swipes on PS II 1200, then re-grind on the workSharp with 80-grit and re-start the process above. This would be faster and more simple than what I'm doing now.

2. OR ... should I keep doing the 1 or 2 degree micro bevel on the blade?


Set Grinding Angle on Mk II Jig, grind on Worksharp with 80-grit at 25 degree Grind Angle (for example)
Then set blade in jig to Primary Cutting Angle (example 30 degrees)
PS II 1200 for primary cutting angle ... 4 to 5 swipes or until wire edge detected (leave wire edge there)
Then add the 1 or 2 degree Microbevel Angle, do a few more passes on the 1200 stone (with the microbevel dialed in)
Then switch to PS 6000 stone ... 4 to 5 swipes with high finger pressure (wire edge still there)
Then the PS13000 stone ... about 10 very soft swipes for polishing
Remove blade, flip, ruler trick, on and off 13000 stone, to remove wire edge
When too time consuming to sharpen (more than 10 swipes on PS II 1200, then re-grind on the WorkSharp with 80-grit and re-start the process above.


3. Then what should I do for intermediate sharpenings while working? (a) All of step 2 above (1200, 6000, and 13000)? (b) Or just the 6000 then 13000 on the final micro-bevel only? (c) Or just the 13000 on the final micro-bevel only?

Sorry about the long post... Thank you again for your time!

Sincerely,
Rich


I've started using Paul Sellers' method, and my sharpening is quicker and better now. I don't worry about microbevels or back bevels. Take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvTcReENk9g&list=UUc3EpWncNq5QL0QhwUNQb7w&index=21

[steven c newman]

And now,if you'll excuse me, Ihave the irons ( from my jack planes) to go and sharpen back up. Should take, maybe 20 minutes for two of them. The third is a cambered one, and needs to be re-cambered a bit more. Say, to about an 8" radius? The other two are just Stanley #5s, I MIGHT try out this "Strop Trick", but haven't figured out how on a cambered iron to do the strop. Sharpening stones are all oiled up, and waiting to go. Three stones, five grits. No ruler in sight, only a Veritas MKI guide. I do the stone work by hand, anyway. Backs are already flat and shiny. Hey, if it works for my #8c to produce so-through shavings in Hickory edge grain......

[Jim Koepke]

A man that picks up a cat by the tail learns a lesson he could not have learned any other way. --- Mark Twain

:D

Nor will his memory of the lesson grow dim from age or time.

jtk

[george wilson]

I was so poor that I had a block,but no plane. All I could do was put it on the floor and stumble over it.

[Derek Cohen]

I was so poor that I had a block,but no plane. All I could do was put it on the floor and stumble over it.

George ... you had a floor?! :D

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

[Larry Whitlow]

This has got to be really confusing to new woodworkers who are trying to really learn how to sharpen in their shops/garages/ basements/kitchens and no having a clue which of the 10 or so different sides to take in this 'discussion'.

Jeff

Confusing? You think so? If this was a discussion about sex there wouldn't be any more babies :)

[George Van Aken]

The coffee cup "trick" reminds me of another that has come in handy over the years on my pocket knife.

When you're out and about, and need a quick sharpen, roll your vehicles window almost all the way down and use the TOP of the glass to touch up that blade. Works very well.:)

[george wilson]

We had a hard packed DIRT floor!!!:) Like the sod houses on the prairie..!!:)

It has been stated that double edged razor blades could be sharpened by whirling them around inside a straight sided glass tumbler. I haven't availed myself of this trick,though.

Derek: I had a block of wood on my bench for holding carver's screws. This was when I was open to the public. Sometimes someone in the crowd would ask what it was for. I'd tell them it was a stumbling block,lay it on there floor and stumble over it. If done right,it always got a big laugh!!

[Curt Putnam]

You were so fortunate. When I was a kid we were so poor that I sharpened by 5c chisel (made from a tooth of a Great White that we had to wrestle to the shore ourselves) on the backside of a running/jumping kangaroo, and then stropped it on the sole of a heat-cracked bare foot.

It worked quite well ..

Regards from Ottawa

Derek

Now that's funny right there (with apologies to Larry)

[Peter Hawser]

Confusing? You think so? If this was a discussion about sex there wouldn't be any more babies :)

Brilliant! Are you sure you are not a professional stand up comedian or writer for David Letterman? I truly laughed out loud. You said it all!

[steven c newman]

Well, despite all the "Good, Bad, and Ugly" advice about sharpening, I still managed to get those two plane iron sharpened back to "Gossemer Shaving" status. I even ground a camber on one of them! Stones made to use a light oil, and then some green stuff on a small buffing wheel in my Dremel. When you can get see-through shavings from a pair of jack planes, yeah, I THINK I might have them sharp enough for a while.


Just marked out the camber on the back of the iron ( Parplus #5 iron) and slowly ground up to the line. The hardest part was stoning that camber, due to small stones i use. I moved my fingertip along where I wanted the stones to hone. But, that is my honing guide, my right index fingertip, right at the edge, and even a bit into the oil. I keep the edge inplace that way, not allowing any gap. Three stones= five grits, and half a can of 3in1 oil ( small "can") Counting the grinding, and honing for two 2" wide irons, about....1 hour.

Confuse anybody???

[Larry Whitlow]

Brilliant! Are you sure you are not a professional stand up comedian or writer for David Letterman? I truly laughed out loud. You said it all!

Naw, I saw a similar comment many years ago about an article on how to perfect your golf swing.