To soak or not to soak...That is the question...

[Harold Burrell]

OK...you all have to forgive me, but I am a little slow.

In another thread the discussion came up about which waterstones to leave soak and which ones to not. Sooooo...I wanted to know what you all thought was the best way to handle my specific stones. And so I will list them all.

I have (in order of "gritness")...

Sigma Power #400
King 800/4000 combo
Sigma Power 1000 (hard)
King 6000
Sigma Power 6000
Bester 8000
Sigma Power 13000

So there they are. How would you suggest I deal with them individually?

[Stuart Tierney]

Sigma #400; Soaking not required at all, but can be soaked indefinitely. Porous, but only just.
King #800/4000; Soaking almost essential for #800, yes/no/maybe for the #4000 side, but it gets soaked anyway.
Sigma #1000 hard, soaking is a good idea and that's how it's supposed to be used. Indefinite soaking ok. I use mine splashed/dry when I don't need it to work hard.
King #6000; Can be soaked, but not needed. 1 minute wetting (not soaking) seems to make mine more consistent.
Sigma #6000; Either/either. Soaked it's faster and smoother, splashed it'll give more polish. Dry, slower but faster polishing.
Bester #8000; I don't know and I don't care.
Sigma #13000; Same as for Sigma #6000.

Does that help? ;)

Stu.

[Harold Burrell]

Sigma #400; Soaking not required at all, but can be soaked indefinitely. Porous, but only just.
King #800/4000; Soaking almost essential for #800, yes/no/maybe for the #4000 side, but it gets soaked anyway.
Sigma #1000 hard, soaking is a good idea and that's how it's supposed to be used. Indefinite soaking ok. I use mine splashed/dry when I don't need it to work hard.
King #6000; Can be soaked, but not needed. 1 minute wetting (not soaking) seems to make mine more consistent.
Sigma #6000; Either/either. Soaked it's faster and smoother, splashed it'll give more polish. Dry, slower but faster polishing.
Bester #8000; I don't know and I don't care.
Sigma #13000; Same as for Sigma #6000.

Does that help? ;)

Stu.

Yeah, it helps alot. Thanks.

I do have more (annoying) questions, though...

When you talk about "soaking", how long do you mean? 10 minutes? An hour?


I have to tell you...your "Bester #8000; I don't know and I don't care" statement absolutely cracked me up. It took me a minute to type because I was laughing so hard. :D

[Jason Coen]

I have to tell you...your "Bester #8000; I don't know and I don't care" statement absolutely cracked me up. It took me a minute to type because I was laughing so hard. :D

If Stu's not careful, people may start confusing him with someone that has a sense of humor. :p

[Stuart Tierney]

If Stu's not careful, people may start confusing him with someone that has a sense of humor. :p

Both my parents are psychiatric nurses.

If I didn't have some kind of sense of humour, I'd have had a psychosis long, long ago.

Besides I live in Japan. If I couldn't blow of some of the idiocy around here with a laugh, I'd probably strange someone...


Soaking, more than 2 minutes is more than I'm willing to go through. More than 2 minutes and the stone should be left in the puddle. I've heard of of folks leaving their stones in water for an hour or more because they think the stone changes somewhat, but seriously, it's chunk of porous clay/ceramic and if it's not soaked through in 5 minutes maximum, it's not meant to be soaked or it's just being a PITA.

What's really stupid here is I recently found the tag off my Japanese market Shapton 1K. Right at the top, it says "soak for 5-6 minutes"...

The tag is scary actually. The list of things you shouldn't do to the Shapton stone boils down to don't permasoak, don't leave in the sun, don't put in a breeze, don't leave in a hot car, don't put boiling water on it and don't put soap on it.

Here's hoping I never mistake my Shapton(s) with my Sigma Power stones... :eek:

Stu.

[Harold Burrell]

Thanks for the info, Stu. I really do appreciate it.

Oh, and by the way...

Both my parents are psychiatric nurses.

That right there really explains alot! ;)

[David Weaver]

The tag is scary actually. The list of things you shouldn't do to the Shapton stone boils down to don't permasoak, don't leave in the sun, don't put in a breeze, don't leave in a hot car, don't put boiling water on it and don't put soap on it.


Those aren't things you'd do to a stone. Shaptons do release their grit a little more after a bit of a soak, but it's not necessary for them (or to me, not preferable).

In 5 or 6 years, my shaptons only damage is is from a drop, I cracked a triangle about the size of a dime out from underneath one of the corners.

[Chris Griggs]

What's really stupid here is I recently found the tag off my Japanese market Shapton 1K. Right at the top, it says "soak for 5-6 minutes"...

The tag is scary actually. The list of things you shouldn't do to the Shapton stone boils down to don't permasoak, don't leave in the sun, don't put in a breeze, don't leave in a hot car, don't put boiling water on it and don't put soap on it.

Here's hoping I never mistake my Shapton(s) with my Sigma Power stones... :eek:

Stu.


Those aren't things you'd do to a stone. Shaptons do release their grit a little more after a bit of a soak, but it's not necessary for them (or to me, not preferable).

In 5 or 6 years, my shaptons only damage is is from a drop, I cracked a triangle about the size of a dime out from underneath one of the corners.

Here we go again....:eek:

[David Weaver]

Here we go again....:eek:

Just a little perspective, that's all. I don't know anyone who soaks them, or does any of the rest of those things with them. There are certainly stones that are worthy of criticism, but shapton pros aren't really in that group.

[Chris Griggs]

Just a little perspective, that's all. I don't know anyone who soaks them, or does any of the rest of those things with them. There are certainly stones that are worthy of criticism, but shapton pros aren't really in that group.

Yeah, I was just poking fun at you and Stu's little back and forth about Shaptons. As soon as I saw his Shapton jab I new you'd be along shortly to defend. Just had to have a laugh about it.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, we'll poo talk each other in a few emails now, maybe. I'm still waiting for the USPS to deliver the king stone I bought from stu. I could've bought it anywhere, but for sure I got to kill two birds with one stone
* buy from stu - that's good for his store
* buy a king brand stone from stu - I knew ordering a king would cause maximum eyeroll

[Stuart Tierney]

Those aren't things you'd do to a stone.

Wanna bet?

For fun, take that #1200 and try it out with a splash. It'll load quickly, but the polish it dishes up is impressive. Nice for when you just need to quickly whip something into shape. ;)

For extra credit, splash with boiling water. Makes it nice and warm on those cold winter nights. :D


Chris, the number of emails I've gotten from folks who are worried about hurting their stones by making a little mistake is surprising. If there were clear instructions, then maybe I'd get fewer emails. But even if there were clear instructions, some folks will disagree with them and confusion will again reign supreme.

I'd settle for folks just saying what stone they're actually using when they say "I do this". Would make my life a whole lot easier...

Stu.

[Peter Hawser]

But what about the water? My tap water is at 6.276489 ph. I think the slight acidity could impact honing retention. Distilled water is an option, but without trace minerals I worry about maintaining blade rejuvenation. Instead I filter my tap water in a reverse osmosis filter, then boil for 38.2 minutes with continuous counter clockwise stirring. I let it cool to 5 degrees F above my shop temperature, add just a dash of manganese power and get very good results.

[Marc Burt]

You're still taking a chance with just the reverse osmosis. You should really run it through a de-ionizer afterward to be safe ;)

[Peter Hawser]

You're still taking a chance with just the reverse osmosis. You should really run it through a de-ionizer afterward to be safe ;)

Interesting point Marc. For older chisels and planes I might agree, but ionization does impact the alignment of high carbon steel's crystalline structure resulting in improved edge retention and paring performance in South American hardwood species end grain.

I believe Tormek is coming out with a new water filtering system with ionization options. Rumor has it this will cost only $795. Meanwhile Chris Schwarz has strong opinions on the use of Oglala Aquifer water and its superior performance on under 1235.3072 grit stone soaking, but others here on SMC have discovered evidence that this was documented years ago by the Woodsmith Shop guys who do most of their work in the great plains area. Of course, nobody could stay awake long enough to listen to their presentation.

:D Okay, I think my little satire has run it's course.

[Adam Cruea]

OK...you all have to forgive me, but I am a little slow.

In another thread the discussion came up about which waterstones to leave soak and which ones to not. Sooooo...I wanted to know what you all thought was the best way to handle my specific stones. And so I will list them all.

I have (in order of "gritness")...

Sigma Power #400
King 800/4000 combo
Sigma Power 1000 (hard)
King 6000
Sigma Power 6000
Bester 8000
Sigma Power 13000

So there they are. How would you suggest I deal with them individually?

For my 1000 (hard), 6000, and 13000, I soak indefinitely. They chew up everything I have, they seem to cut better when wet for me, and they leave an edge that doesn't need stropped.

[Mark Kornell]

Interesting point Marc. For older chisels and planes I might agree, but ionization does impact the alignment of high carbon steel's crystalline structure resulting in improved edge retention and paring performance in South American hardwood species end grain.

I believe Tormek is coming out with a new water filtering system with ionization options. Rumor has it this will cost only $795. Meanwhile Chris Schwarz has strong opinions on the use of Oglala Aquifer water and its superior performance on under 1235.3072 grit stone soaking, but others here on SMC have discovered evidence that this was documented years ago by the Woodsmith Shop guys who do most of their work in the great plains area. Of course, nobody could stay awake long enough to listen to their presentation.

:D Okay, I think my little satire has run it's course.

Thank you. Wine coming out of one's nose is unpleasant. Particularly if one has to wait a couple of minutes to stop laughing before blowing said nose.

[James Taglienti]

Interesting point Marc. For older chisels and planes I might agree, but ionization does impact the alignment of high carbon steel's crystalline structure resulting in improved edge retention and paring performance in South American hardwood species end grain.

I believe Tormek is coming out with a new water filtering system with ionization options. Rumor has it this will cost only $795. Meanwhile Chris Schwarz has strong opinions on the use of Oglala Aquifer water and its superior performance on under 1235.3072 (tel:1235.3072) grit stone soaking, but others here on SMC have discovered evidence that this was documented years ago by the Woodsmith Shop guys who do most of their work in the great plains area. Of course, nobody could stay awake long enough to listen to their presentation.

:D Okay, I think my little satire has run it's course.

I like this guy!

[paul cottingham]

Thank you. Wine coming out of one's nose is unpleasant. Particularly if one has to wait a couple of minutes to stop laughing before blowing said nose.

Strangely, it had the same effect on me. For the record coffee coming out of ones nose is also unpleasant.

[Brian Ashton]

I have 2 stones I bought from Lee valley that have been soaking since the 80s - hasn't harmed them in any way. All of the others, from 200 on up to 8000 have been soaking for at least 3 or 4 years with no sign of a problem. All are in the same tupperware container with no sigh of any cross contamination i.e. large grit getting embedded in the finer stones...

[Peter Hawser]

I like this guy!

Mark, Paul, James! Sadly my one skill, being a sarcastic smart aleck, exceeds my woodworking skills, but I'm glad it is appreciated.:D Of course, we have ALL seen the endless debates where the absurdly experienced sharpening guru's go off on tangents that, while may be valid, are more directed at scientific studies than a "how to" guide for most of us and make us shake our heads in utter confusion. I do appreciate these guys, but I was hoping my over the top made up nonsense about water quality might help bring us all down to earth a little bit. No harm or insult intended - just the former class clown here having a little fun!

[Steve Friedman]

Mark, Paul, James! Sadly my one skill, being a sarcastic smart aleck, exceeds my woodworking skills, but I'm glad it is appreciated.

Then your woodworking skills must be awful!

Sorry, I couldn't pass up the opening.

On the other hand, were it not for all the sharpening debates, I might actually get some work done.

Steve

[Harold Burrell]

Mark, Paul, James! Sadly my one skill, being a sarcastic smart aleck, exceeds my woodworking skills, but I'm glad it is appreciated.:D Of course, we have ALL seen the endless debates where the absurdly experienced sharpening guru's go off on tangents that, while may be valid, are more directed at scientific studies than a "how to" guide for most of us and make us shake our heads in utter confusion. I do appreciate these guys, but I was hoping my over the top made up nonsense about water quality might help bring us all down to earth a little bit. No harm or insult intended - just the former class clown here having a little fun!

Wait a minute. Are you saying you were just kidding?!!!

Great...now I've gotta call that water treatment guy back and tell him not to come.

[Peter Hawser]

Then your woodworking skills must be awful!

Sorry, I couldn't pass up the opening.

On the other hand, were it not for all the sharpening debates, I might actually get some work done.

Steve

Oh man, that hurts... deep pain...

[Sam Murdoch]

OK now I'm laughing out loud - no beverages :D You know Harold, once you call those guys they never give up :rolleyes:

[Alan Schwabacher]

I started with a $20 King 800/4000 stone, and kept it in water ready to go. This worked fine for quite a while, but then it became much more difficult to use, and impossible to flatten. It turned out to have partly separated at the joint between the two stones, and the stones were sufficiently flexible that crud would work its way between them, putting the surface out of flat. So while soaking the 800 grit stone is a good idea, long term storage in water is contraindicated for this stone.

[Chris Griggs]

I keep any stone that can be left in water in water indefinitely. My sigma's have been sitting in water non stop for months. When my only stone was a Notons 1k/8k, it lived in water indefinitely as well. My my magnesia stones (Naniwa Cho and naniwa snow white) that can't be permasoaked I generally use with a splash, even though they technically perform best when soaked. I do what is most convenient and works. I always felt like the Sigs worked best with a good soak, so if I were you I'd just leave them in water all the time.