TS-Aligner and Ed Bennett - A Cautionary Tale

[Will Patterson]

For those who are not familiar with the product, here is a link:


TS-Aligner (http://www.ts-aligner.com/)


So here goes my review and final conclusion on Ed Bennett's TS-Aligner. The product itself works fairly well but I cannot speak for the integrity of Ed as a business person. I have been trying to contact Ed for the past 2 months to confirm that he received my TS-Aligner as I had sent it back to him for re-calibration. I had exchanged emails with Ed and he had given me permission to send him the TS-Aligner and to include a check for $10 and he would re-calibrate the unit.


I have still not heard back from Ed. The only positive is that he has not cashed the check as far as I know.


Perhaps I should have known better but I did not see this until I had corresponded with him and gained his permission to send the items back for calibration.



The waiting list for TS-Aligner products is very long. Please don't ask me how long - answering such questions is a waste of time and makes the wait longer for everyone. I have provided a description of the process below. Each step involves elements that can cause indefinite delays beyond my ability to predict or control. People who have more resources (facilities, labor, funding, inventory, etc.) can easily produce delivery estimates. I can not so please don't ask me to. Call me to find out where I am in the process. Call me with questions about woodworking or machinery. Call me about the weather. Call me to make sure that I didn't die or flee to Canada (living the good life on TS-Aligner money in Saskatchewan!). But, don't call me asking for an estimate on delivery. If you pester me about it, I'm likely to get annoyed with you and give the most definite answer I can: "never".


Not very professional. "Never"?.... :sigh:




In my last correspondence which was this morning, I asked him to either return my items with or without calibration or to allow me to return the entire unit. Per his website:



It's always good business to have happy customers. Happy customers generate more business than all the advertising in the world. I only want happy customers. If you don't find one of my products useful or valuable, then the worst possible thing I could do is make you keep it. I don't want unhappy customers. If one of my products makes you unhappy, then I don't want you to end up getting stuck with it. That places a great responsibility on me to ensure that my customers choose my products because they are the best possible choice. So, I must do my best to provide all the information needed to make the right purchase decision. That's why my web site is packed full of detailed documentation. Since the TS-Aligner introduction in 1991, only five customers have asked for (and received) a full refund.
Some might think this makes me an easy mark. I say that they should think again. I've noticed that some people like to "manufacture" issues of dissatisfaction so that they can obtain "freebies", or "consolations" for their "inconvenience". If I do something wrong that causes you trouble, I'll do whatever I can to make it right. If there is something I can do to optimize my product in your application then I'll do whatever I can to make it happen. But, I won't be the victim of what I call "retail terrorism". I won't pay a ransom (freebie) to save the hostage (the sale of my product). I'll sacrifice the hostage (buy back the product) and eliminate the unhappy customer.


I guess these are just words to Ed.


Thanks for listening and buyer beware but I would stay away from the TS Aligner and not make the same mistake that I did. Besides there are a lot of great competing products and they are delivered in a timely manner with much less attitude. There are also a lot of shop built solutions that are cheap and just as good.

[Will Rowland]

I had similar dealings with Mr. Ed Bennett. If that guy would just put $10k worth of equity into his company, and hold a little finished inventory, he could rule the world (of woodworking aligner devices). As it is, I think the below is more appropriate:

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/32872294.jpg

[Stephen Cherry]

I just read over the site policies, and it seems VERY clear that making these jigs is a sideline, Mr. Bennett has a day job, and he gets to them when he can. He sounds a little obsessive, but they are nice looking jigs and the prices are not out of line.

Basically, the site discloses that it's not like buying from amazon, and you should not expect that it will be. If you've read the site, and want to deal with the situation, it seems fine to me. You do not have to buy from him.

That said, if you think you could do better, one alternative would be to show the information from the sit to a local machinist and ask to have one of jigs duplicated.

[Dick Mahany]

Here's an alternative. Made it for almost nothing and used an old dial indicator that was laying around. Repeats to 0.001" , but requires a very good fit for the miter slider Thats why there are two adjustable ends on it). Since I'm not setting up metal milling equipment, I'm happy with it, and if I ever need to deal with the manufacturer, I know where to find him ;).

250166250167

[Todd Seitz]

Dick, I really like your jig. The old KISS theory definately applies to this jig.

[Peter Kelly]

I just read over the site policies, and it seems VERY clear that making these jigs is a sideline, Mr. Bennett has a day job, and he gets to them when he can. He sounds a little obsessive, but they are nice looking jigs and the prices are not out of line.
I still answer the phone and reply to all email messages. I spend lots of hours in front of machines making parts. I assemble and calibrate my products. I personally train, assist, and coach everyone who works for me. The products which I sell bear my name. Their quality and reputation mean everything to me. They are my entire livelihood. If I get out of touch with my customers, vendors, employees, and products, then I put my livelihood at risk.

http://www.ts-aligner.com/philosophy.htm

Wonder what the real story is...

[Stephen Cherry]

I still answer the phone and reply to all email messages. I spend lots of hours in front of machines making parts. I assemble and calibrate my products. I personally train, assist, and coach everyone who works for me. The products which I sell bear my name. Their quality and reputation mean everything to me. They are my entire livelihood. If I get out of touch with my customers, vendors, employees, and products, then I put my livelihood at risk.

http://www.ts-aligner.com/philosophy.htm

Wonder what the real story is...

That's an inconsistency there, isn't it?

[Chris Parks]

I recall a lot of very robust debate involving Ed back in the rec. woodworking newsgroup days. Was anyone here a member?

[John Leatherman]

Dick, that is an ingenious way to align the saw. I wonder, though, couldn't you just clamp the dial indicator to a miter-gauge? I've got a couple cheapo DI's in my machine shop that I upgraded from. I think I've found a weekend project here.

[Larry Fox]

Dick, I really like your jig. The old KISS theory definately applies to this jig.

+1 Mine looks like a primative version of Dick's version and it has served me very well for years.

[brian c miller]

I have recived lots of help regarding his "indicator on a stick" version. Free access to his very detailed website for step by step alignment.

I never bought something and he's still been pretty helpful.

The calibration is pretty simple.... If you have a starrett combo square and a reasonable flat surface this should be a quick adjustment. There's even directions on his site to self align:
http://www.ts-aligner.com/calibration.htm


The key is to understand the math behing the gizmo.

Reading on the indicator = 1 - Tan(angle desired)So, the reading is 0.000" for 45 degrees (plunger barely pushed in) and 1.000" (plunger pushed in almost all the way) for 90 degrees (actually zero degrees).


As I under stand it you only need the calibration if you intend to "find" angles using the angle attachment gage... the calibration is done to eliminate the possibility for cosine error. Here is a quick sketch of what I mean by Cosine Error.
250173

Picture the 2" line being the indicator at full extenstion and the 1" line being the anglefinder point. If you had the DI @ a 5* angle you'd get a reading of 0.000 when measuring 90* and a reading of 1.004" at true 45*... not 1.000"

If you used 1.000" to set 45* you'd be off by something 0.11*

[glenn bradley]

Here's an alternative. Made it for almost nothing and used an old dial indicator that was laying around. Repeats to 0.001" , but requires a very good fit for the miter slider Thats why there are two adjustable ends on it). Since I'm not setting up metal milling equipment, I'm happy with it, and if I ever need to deal with the manufacturer, I know where to find him ;).

I did as Dick did. $100 to align a tablesaw? Even folks like me who are after +/- .001" can get there easily without the anodized hardware.

250174250175250176

[Chris Tsutsui]

Perhaps an improvement to the business is if all of this information pops up prior to clicking "purchase" with one of those "agree" check boxes. Then it could reduce confusion to buyers.

However I did come across all of those terms and conditions of sale when I was searching for the price list on the sellers website.

Sorry to hear your unit went out of calibration. Maybe it's an excuse to buy some machinist tools to calibrate the unit yourself?

[Alan Melbourne]

i hate situations like this.
if you are acting as a business then you have to answer emails and the phone.
even if there is a situation at home. it will ruin a companies reputation if you let these things build up.
i lower my value of a company very quickly in these situations.
if i email a company monday and havent heard anything by tuesday evening i will email again. nothing by wedness day evening i will start to get mad. by friday evening i will be angry and think about not doing business . email again , nothing back in a few hour i wont bother anymore and never go near them again.
its the only way to weed out this sort of bad customer service.

[Peter Kelly]

Forrest makes something similar: http://www.forrestblades.com/accessories.htm

They pick up their phones too btw.

[Dick Mahany]

I recall a lot of very robust debate involving Ed back in the rec. woodworking newsgroup days. Was anyone here a member?


Yep I was a member back then and remember those debates! Those days seem so long ago.

[Wade Lippman]

If I were him, I would raise my price until I had the amount of business that I wanted.
But what do I know...

[John Piwaron]

Here's an alternative. Made it for almost nothing and used an old dial indicator that was laying around. Repeats to 0.001" , but requires a very good fit for the miter slider Thats why there are two adjustable ends on it). Since I'm not setting up metal milling equipment, I'm happy with it, and if I ever need to deal with the manufacturer, I know where to find him ;).

250166250167

Great jig. I'd probably go this route. OTOH, there's times I don't. It comes down to time. While I'm easily capable of making something like that, I'm also aware that time making it is time not making something promised. An armoire, coffee table - you name it. Sometimes it's just easier to buy something.

I like the TS-Aligner from what I've read about it and the pictures I've seen. But reading the purchase conditions, well, that puts it in a different light. I might still order one and just hope it arrives someday. the website makes it perfectly clear that he's working on it when he gets around to it and that he's anal about the tools. All of that is fine with me. In fact, bravo to him! As long as all of that is made clear up front.

I hope the OP gets his jig back. Clearly that's going to take some time.

[ian maybury]

:) I guess to offer another side of the coin and looking in from an irish perspective: there's a peculiarly consumeristic and fairly specifically US based view (which positions the consumer as king) that tends to suggest that anybody who sells anything should always comply with a very tightly defined profile of behaviour - immediate delivery, no consideration of personal circumstances permitted, competitive price, perfect quality etc.

There's actually a very similar maxim that's taught in business schools these days - that in the case of mainstream consumer markets involving the sale of mature volume products that competitive price and perfect quality are assumed, and that companies compete mostly these days on the basis of choice/availability and customer service.

It's very easy for this expectation to become a default mindset, but maybe there's a more complex scenario under the surface in a case like this where it's a one man band operation and at least partly a labour of love.

It's for a guy (or indeed any business) to decide what his business model is, and if he chooses to exchange some competitiveness for the pleasure of doing things his own way then that's his prerogative. We'd probably whinge even more loudly if he upped his price to the maximum the market would bear. We're equally free to respond to this as we see fit, but if we're hell bent on applying the consumeristic view (which can become a bit of a knee jerk matter) the result may be that his business is more damaged by this than it otherwise might be.

Which in turn is opens the question - does it make sense (or is it right and appropriate) for us to squeeze a guy so hard that he no longer wants or is able to stay in business? Does it make sense as in do we really want to drive a guy like this out of business? Appropriate in that he may have personal circumstances we know nothing of - and anyway when there's one guy it's not reasonable to demand that he does the work of 10 guys.

The other side of the coin is the proposition he pitches to potential customers. It's clearly the case that any supplier should be clear about the terms under which he takes an order, and delivering in accordance with that proposition is a matter of simple integrity. Against that some individuals are not the best at managing expectations, but may have no intention of messing anybody about.

All I'm saying is that it's perhaps not as black and white a scenario as we might at first conclude. It's perhaps the case that the only really firm positions that can be taken on what's right/not right is that (a) a supplier should behave with integrity, and (b) we should probably think our actions through before adopting any firm position on the topic. We're used to rather more quirky behaviours on the part of suppliers over here. There's much worse - a bit of quirkiness mixed with the right intentions at least beats the hell out of bloody minded blind bureaucracy any day......

ian

[Bruce Page]

My method:

[HANK METZ]

I recall a lot of very robust debate involving Ed back in the rec. woodworking newsgroup days. Was anyone here a member?

Yup, I remember that one, it was legendary, between Ed and a detractor- forget who, but every day you'd see about a half- dozen back and forth salvos, neither guy giving way, it was a cage match to the death- and a huge waste of bandwidth.

- Beachside Hank
Improvise, adapt, overcome; the essence of true craftsmanship.

[Peter Quinn]

I'm honestly amused that one would spend that kind of money on a device capable of alligning a TS blade to a Tolerance beyond which most professional TS's were manufactured to hold, beyond which the blade is capable delivering, and to cut a medium which moves as much as wood. I think I rigged up some steel plate on a miter bar thingy with a dial indicator to check my saw once, it was pretty darn near foolproof using stuff I already owned, confident I could have done the same with a $4 set of feeler gauges and a combo square, or even a pack of post it notes. Sure , it doesn't have the "wow" factor of of polished anodized aluminum, but if e saw needs to be aligned that often, maybe the money is better spent on a new saw?

[John McClanahan]

Sure a lot of nice equipment for a part time one man operation. Personally, I wouldn't buy from him after reading his terms. "Send me your money and don't ask when to expect to get your product" doesn't sit well with me. If you needed one of his tools, could you afford to wait, based on his timetable? There are plenty of other options out there.

John

[Chris Fournier]

Holy cow, for the price the TS Aligner you could buy proper basic measuring equipment and make some quick fixtures and have as much accuracy as you could require on any and all machines in your shop, not just your table saw. And it has to be sent back to be recalibrated? Wow.

[Alan Melbourne]

as another irish man. i dis agree.
as a consumer i expect and demand profesionalism and curtacy from any company i deal with.
yes there can be a million different reasons why he isnt able to get the work done(health, family, work,lazyness,etc etc). non of these excuse the situation of not letting the customer know whats going on.
the very least that should be done if a long term issue is there(health etc) is put a bannor across the website explayning the situation.

this case baffels me . i would never buy from someone with terms and connditions like that. if i buy something then i expect it to be dispatched to me as soon as posible and an email explaining any reason for delays.
i cannot under stand why he works like this. why doesnt he offer a waiting list and take a deposite. and build them first then charge for them.
bridge city do it like this

[Rich Riddle]

What about the unit from Woodpeckers?

http://www.woodpeck.com/sawgauge.html

[Roger Feeley]

It seems to me that the big difference between the home built jigs and the TS-Aligner is that offset thingy on the dial indicator. It lowers your contact point to just above the table and makes it possible to use more of the blade. I forget the thread form on dial indicators but I think it's just 4-40. That part would be pretty easy to make.

[Bruce Page]

I was asked about this in a PM. Here’s a thread where I explain how to tune your table saw easily, relatively inexpensively, and dead nuts accurate.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?32315-Checking-a-TS-using-a-Surface-Gauge-%28Lotsa-Pics%29&highlight=

[Dick Mahany]

It seems to me that the big difference between the home built jigs and the TS-Aligner is that offset thingy on the dial indicator. It lowers your contact point to just above the table and makes it possible to use more of the blade. I forget the thread form on dial indicators but I think it's just 4-40. That part would be pretty easy to make.

I have worked extensively with laser interferometer based metrology systems and things like Abbé offset error can be important when you are dealing with microns and nanometers..............but for a simple tool like a table saw, a simple well made wooden jig will easily get you to within 0.001". I do like the pretty anodized metal, but I'll use a quick and repeatable home made simple jig any time given cost considerations.

[Chris Fournier]

It seems to me that the big difference between the home built jigs and the TS-Aligner is that offset thingy on the dial indicator. It lowers your contact point to just above the table and makes it possible to use more of the blade. I forget the thread form on dial indicators but I think it's just 4-40. That part would be pretty easy to make.

You could simply angle your indicator towards the table for the same set up ability. Certainly the absolute value would be incorrect unless you accounted for the geometry but you don't need need an absolute value as you are measuring a relative value - front to back of the blade. You simply need the indicator to be held firmly in your fixture and the fixture to be tight in your TS mitre slot or against the fence etc.

[Brian Elfert]

I have a TS Aligner I bought a number of years ago. I don't remember having to wait too long for it. That said, I don't know if I would buy another just based on what I read here.

[michael case]

Bennet references "the Debates" in his statements about his reputation and company. I found the site frankly weird. It was a litany of defensive statements and "philosophies". It seemed more like psychiatric catharsis rather sales and business.

[Peter Kelly]

I'm sorta surprised he hasn't registered with SMC and started flaming everyone on this thread....

[ian maybury]

I tried to set out some general possibilities to show that there can be two sides to a coin like this Alan - but have no idea what's actually the position in this case. I tried to cover both sides - and was basically saying that while there's maybe wider scope for variation in the proposition offered than we tend to think that suppliers (in general) should deliver on what their proposition commits them to..

ian

PS A quick reading of the section on the site about placing orders seems fairly explicit. http://www.ts-aligner.com/reseller.asp It might not be what people want to hear, but he's basically saying that he's a finite labour resource, that he works through orders as he receives them, that he's swamped and only working part time - that if you want one he's not quoting a lead time. If you decide if you want one then please join the queue. As in place your order and wait till it's filled - whatever time it's going to take.

It's not necessarily the standard business model, and it took him a page to set it out - but equally he's about as up front about the reality of it as you can imagine.

Far more so than a corporate that'll say 'yes sir/no sir' as you speak to them, ship your order the same day (from a container load bought on the cheap from a sweatshop somewhere) only for you to find the thing is junk. Ticks all the boxes but falls short in key areas like material quality, tolerances and so on.

The delay is a pain, and it's a method of working that's sure to attract kick back since we're all used to the corporate approach - but in the end if it clearly delivers a good product then I'd rather deal with somebody with some personal commitment to what they do....

It does seem from the OP's post that his issue (which is basically a post sale matter) is either not being dealt with, or has just been put back in the queue, and that for some reason the guy is not returning his calls. That's understandably frustrating, in that you'd expect a post sale issue to get priority - but maybe something has happened. Illness or whatever.


Maybe a practical route would be to focus on getting a fix. Is there by any chance anybody who lives close enough to know or easily drop in to the guy to find out what might be going on???

ian

[Will Patterson]

An update to this thread.

I heard back from Ed earlier today and he pointed out some facts which I left out of my thread. In the interest of fairness, I will post the updates below.

I asked Ed for permission to send back my unit on 12/28/2010. I had emailed Ed and asked if it was ok for me to send the items back to him for calibration. Ed responded by saying, that there was no problem and to include $10 for the recalibration. I know Ed is a small scale operation to preserve quality products so I did not understand that this would be an RMA and that a time limit would apply. What i am saying is that I did not realize that this would be an official RMA so that was a mis-undersanding.

I would also add that according to Ed's records, I bought the unit on 11/29/2000. I am not disputing the purchase date. I did not know that I had the product for 12 years.

Ed explained why he did not receive my correspondence and the changes to his business. I do not feel it is my place to comment on what Ed said about TS Aligner and his other businesses. I imagine Ed will do that.

Thanks

[Keith Christopher]

Get this one. you'll be glad you did.

http://www.woodpeck.com/sawgauge.html

[Bruce Page]

This thread has run it's course.