Bad Axe saws worth it? Anyone try Winsor saws?

[Aaron Walters]

Im in the late stages of choosing a set of saws for my shop. Im switching to a more hand tool based approach and Im going to get a pair of 14" sash/carcase saws (rip and crosscut) and a dovetail saw. I've narrowed my choice down to either bad axe, winsor saw, or lie-nielsen. I'm confident the bad axe saws are great, I just hesitate because they are basically twice the price of my other options. I found winsor saws online, and they seem great, have a good price point, and offer some customization. I hesitate to order them because they seem to be a very small company and do not have any professional reviews yet. And, lastly lie-nielsen, which is the cheapest of the bunch (never thought Id say that) only offers a 14" saw in .032 plate which seems to be really thick compared to everyone else's .020 or .025 plate. The Scharwz says he's fond of thinner plates and I have to agree. I'd just rather spend around $450 instead of $700. I don't mind to shell out the coin for bad axe if they truly are worth it, but I'd rather save that extra money for another tool. Thoughts, ideas???

[Jim Koepke]

Aaron,

Welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't show your location. You may live near another member who is willing to let you test drive their saws.

In another thread you asked about how someone felt about their Winsor saw. The only comment he made about the saw was in his first post about how it seemed to track to the left. This is something that is not difficult to correct. Though it isn't fun the first time or two someone goes through the process.

Not knowing the return policy of Winsor, my money would be going with a known entity like LN or Bad Axe. Of course, if Winsor has a "make the customer happy" policy, then they might be worth a look.

jtk

[David Weaver]

If money is an issue, buy the LN saws. 0.032 is pretty blunt for a 14" saw. Add set and it's pretty coarse. The disston saws around that size (12" or so), I think, mic around .024 or something like that, at least the ones I've checked.

[Dale Turner]

I'll tell you, I have a LN dovetail that I really like, a bad axe CC sash saw and a set of 3 saws from Bontz Woodworking. They are all really great saws, but I keep reaching for the bontz saws. They seem to start and cut smoother than the others, and really fit my hand well. You can basically get a large tenon, a carcass and a Dovetail saw for the price of one badaxe. I like my badaxe, but the price is pretty steep. I don't have any experience with the Winsor saws...

That's my .02.

[george wilson]

Windsor saws are typical lower quality saws,as far as I know. Softer steel,too thick blades.

[Adam Cruea]

I like my Bad Axe 16" tenons. Great, great saws that just chew up wood like it's candy.

Pricey? Yes. Made in USA and a small business guy, though. That's why I chose Bad Axe.

Bah, I just noticed. . .

Winsor (at least the dovetails) don't have the folded backs that the Bad Axe do. What the difference is, I'm not completely sure, but I remember reading that the folding was more rigid or something and when the saw plate got hot, it warped less.

I could be very wrong, but hey. . .

[Sean Richards]

Windsor saws are typical lower quality saws,as far as I know. Softer steel,too thick blades.

You sure? Look like pretty nice saws

Specifications:


Closed Handle—hand-shaped by our master craftsman and hand rubbed finished with a proprietary finish.
All made in the USA, in our Colorado saw shop
13ppi, precision cut and hand set, sharpened for tenon ripping and individually tuned to perfection, however we offer custom setups like 11ppi rip, or 14ppi crosscut.
Solid brass spine, milled, slotted, not folded (.25" x .75")
Blade is 12", 14" or 16" x 3", 3.5", and 4" usable girth, .025" thick Spring Steel
Milled solid brass split nuts


http://www.winsorsaw.com/tenonsaws/tenonsaws.htm

[Sean Richards]

Winsor (at least the dovetails) don't have the folded backs that the Bad Axe do. What the difference is, I'm not completely sure, but I remember reading that the folding was more rigid or something and when the saw plate got hot, it warped less. I could be very wrong, but hey. . .

IMHO there is no functional difference in slotted or folded backs.

[Jim Foster]

I googled Ron Bontz, but could not find a website. Any details on his saws?


I'll tell you, I have a LN dovetail that I really like, a bad axe CC sash saw and a set of 3 saws from Bontz Woodworking. They are all really great saws, but I keep reaching for the bontz saws. They seem to start and cut smoother than the others, and really fit my hand well. You can basically get a large tenon, a carcass and a Dovetail saw for the price of one badaxe. I like my badaxe, but the price is pretty steep. I don't have any experience with the Winsor saws...

That's my .02.

[paul cottingham]

I have a bad axe sash saw, as well as 2 old disston tennon saws. I reach for the bad axe first, every time. It is a great saw, and although I am not well off, I think it is worth while saving the extra money for one of Mark's offerings. I will always buy tools from small craftsmen if given the choice.
I do not own any lie-Nielsen saws, but they would be my next choice.

[David Weaver]

IMHO there is no functional difference in slotted or folded backs.

How does a user adjust saw plate straightness on a saw with a slotted back? It's pretty easy to adjust the spine on a folded back.

I don't know if there's a need for users to pay extra for a folded back, but they aren't the same.

[Sean Richards]

How does a user adjust saw plate straightness on a saw with a slotted back? It's pretty easy to adjust the spine on a folded back.

I don't know if there's a need for users to pay extra for a folded back, but they aren't the same.

If you are enough of a muppet to get a saw into that situation its pretty doubtful that you will have the necessary motor skills to be able to straighten it successfully ...

[Chris Griggs]

If you are enough of a muppet to get a saw into that situation its pretty doubtful that you will have the necessary motor skills to be able to straighten it successfully ...

I find this statement to be offensive to Muppets. I love the Muppets!!!

[Jim Matthews]

Ron is one of our very own, right here in the creek.

ron.b@empowering.com
I have a "half-back" saw that he made. It's my favorite for anything larger than tenons or dovetails.

[Paul Saffold]

The Windsor saws do look nice and reasonable prices for saw plates and split nuts. Thanks for the link, Sean. I hadn't heard of them.

[David Weaver]

If you are enough of a muppet to get a saw into that situation its pretty doubtful that you will have the necessary motor skills to be able to straighten it successfully ...

It might be if a beginner does it to a saw initially, but the same beginner should progress to the level of skill to be able to make that fix easily.

(the importance of how different fixing the two is might be negated by LN's return policy - they may fix mistakes, including those made by muppets. I don't have any new production saws, though, so I don't know what any of the places would do. Putting together three from parts and replacing the plate on another old english saw, I certainly appreciated the ability to adjust the back easily until the entire assembly was straight).

[Dave Parkis]

+1 for Ron Bontz. His saws are outstanding and his prices are reasonable. I just bought one of his dovetail saws and its fantastic!! I'm not sure what he has left (if anything) but a couple of weeks ago he was selling some saws at VERY reasonable prices.

[Matt Radtke]

I have to Bad Axe saws, the 18" tenon rip and the 14" sash crosscut. They are excellent saws and worth every penny to me. It did help my decision to get my first Bad Axe that Mark's a Wisconsinite. The decision to get the second Bad Axe was because of how nice the 1st was.

[Mike Tekin]

Here is my question...for those who pay big bucks on Bad Axe saws do they include free sharpening? Mark is fantastic at sharpening which is what makes his saws so nice, but what happens when they dull?...what are his sharpening prices?

For that reason, I like Lie Nielsen, lifetime warranty, USA made, affordable, and $15 sharpening.

[bob blakeborough]

I have 4 Bad Axe saws... A 10 inch DT I use in thinner wood, a 12 inch filed rip I like when dovetailing in a bit thicker woods, a 14 inch filed X-cut and a 16 inch filed hybrid. I do not ever regret buying these and they perform to the extreme...

That said, they are not cheap, but in my mind, I was able to justify the cost difference when thinking that over the course of my lifetime, it made a difference of few cups of starbucks a year... lol! If you can justify it, they are a pleasure to use, but any saw cuts...

[Mike Cogswell]

I have six back saws, two Bad Axe (14" x-cut sash and 16" rip tenon), two LN (10" rip dovetail and 12" x-cut carcase) plus a couple of old Disstons. I flat out love the two Bad Axe saws - they cut like a hot knife through melted butter. The LNs are nice saws, but they just don't quite feel and cut like the Bad Axes.

They certainly weren't cheap, and I'll admit there is a certain about of "I'm worth it" that went into buying them, but it was nice to be able to specify every aspect of the saw, and they are a joy to look at and use. I don't regret buying them for a moment and am likely going to buy one of his dovetail saws later this year.

He does offer sharpening as a service. I sent him my father's old saws to be sharpened last Fall and got them back better than they had ever been. He quotes a standard price of $45 for Jointing, Sharpening & Setting. That's part of his restoration services for old saws, so I don't know if he has a lower price if you are sending one of his saws in to be resharpened.

[Randy Karst]

Aaron,
I cannot speak to the quality of Bad Axe saws, however, their reputation is stellar (their price is not). I have both a Dovetail and Carcase saw from Winsor and am quite pleased with them. He is using the same quality steel as other top saw makers but at a similar price point with LN which is what attracted me, while still crafting a saw to your specifications. Additionally, I have an LN "Thin Plate" tenon saw that I truly appreciate but it is a bit more of a "finesse" tool than a non-thin plate tenon saw (though it cuts fast), some woodworkers love 'em, some not so much; probably not the first choice for a production environment (the plate does not dissipate heat build-up as well as a thicker plate but then hand-tools really are not about high production anyway. I also have an LN "Thin Plate" dovetail saw that I really enjoy and it has become my "go to dovetail saw" with the Winsor being my number two (out of four). I find the geometry of my Winsor and LN dovetail saws to be similar making it easy to switch between the two (this is not the case with my Adria). I also like the Fiddleback Walnut tote offered as an option on the Winsor saws. It's nice to be able to have so many quality choices these days - happy hunting!

[Tony Wilkins]

Given the caveat that I'm new into all of this not to be in any way an expert but I do have a Bad Axe so I thought I'd throw in my two pesos. What ended up being worth it to me to buy the Bad Axe was the wealth of information that Mark has. That level of information and craftsmanship offers one very unique thing - a saw that can be very much customized to the uses you encounter with it. He also stands behind his products extremely well. My saw is filed with one of his 'hybrid' filings so it has allowed me to get away with one saw for both rip and cross very admirably. (Actually, get along to well with it - I'm dying to get another because the things so darn pretty but can't justify the need lol)

[Shawn Pixley]

I was strictly a japanese pull saw user until I ordered and received my 16" tenon saw. I love it, but I am still adjusting to sawing western style. Maybe I need to look up the show, "Sawing for Teens?"

[Isaac Smith]

How does a user adjust saw plate straightness on a saw with a slotted back? It's pretty easy to adjust the spine on a folded back.

I don't know if there's a need for users to pay extra for a folded back, but they aren't the same.

I make my saws with slotted spines. I can't speak for other makers, but on the saws I build, something went seriously wrong if the blade needs to be adjusted in the slot.

First, a little background on how I build my saws. Before the blade is installed in the spine, I squeeze the slot shut. When I pound the spine into place, the blade bottoms out in the slot, and is held there by friction. A lot of friction. The fit is, for all practical purposes, permanent. I have occasionally needed to remove the blade from the spine; in about a third of these instances, the plate is sacrificed in the violent struggle for liberation.

Before a saw leaves my shop, I check the blade against a surface plate to ensure that it is planar. If the blade, at some point in the future, becomes non-planar, it is due to one of three causes: a twist or bend in the spine, or a bent/kinked plate. The first two can be remedied by straightening the spine, while the third cause probably requires that the plate be replaced.

[Bob Jones]

I have 4 LN backsaws and I like them all. I sent 2 of them in for resharpening and they returned them to me super quick and in new condition. They resharpen them super cheap (basically covers their shipping). That I why I bought their saws.

[David Weaver]

I make my saws with slotted spines. I can't speak for other makers, but on the saws I build, something went seriously wrong if the blade needs to be adjusted in the slot.

First, a little background on how I build my saws. Before the blade is installed in the spine, I squeeze the slot shut. When I pound the spine into place, the blade bottoms out in the slot, and is held there by friction. A lot of friction. The fit is, for all practical purposes, permanent. I have occasionally needed to remove the blade from the spine; in about a third of these instances, the plate is sacrificed in the violent struggle for liberation.

Before a saw leaves my shop, I check the blade against a surface plate to ensure that it is planar. If the blade, at some point in the future, becomes non-planar, it is due to one of three causes: a twist or bend in the spine, or a bent/kinked plate. The first two can be remedied by straightening the spine, while the third cause probably requires that the plate be replaced.

I understand that everyone does it basically, except maybe TFWW and is wenzloff even still making saws?

From a business standpoint, it makes a lot more sense to make slotted backs than it does to bend. I can imagine it would be a total bear to get the blade out of a brass slot that's precisely milled.

I don't think it's a matter of a maker making a saw that needs to be adjusted by a user, rather a saw that needs to be adjusted by a user due to abuse (hopefully by another user).

[Aaron Walters]

Hey, thanks for the input everybody. I ended up going with a small custom saw maker, blackburn tools (http://blackburntools.com) I think their saws are better looking than any of the commercial saws out there. There were some really good reviews on another forum. Plus, they offer a 1 year no questions warranty. They even have a better price than bad axe, though that isnt really hard to do. Thanks again

[Chris Griggs]

Hey, thanks for the input everybody. I ended up going with a small custom saw maker, blackburn tools (http://blackburntools.com) I think their saws are better looking than any of the commercial saws out there. There were some really good reviews on another forum. Plus, they offer a 1 year no questions warranty. They even have a better price than bad axe, though that isnt really hard to do. Thanks again

Excellent! I hadn't seen his site before. He posts his saws here sometimes. He makes very nice looking saws. Looks like there is lots of good stuff on his site!

[peter gagliardi]

I have a few of the Lie-Nielsen saws and really don't care for the steel they use in their plate. I would much rather have the basic high carbon spring steel of old. Has anyone got, or compiled a list of current saw makers ? It seems that Eccentric is gone, along with Medallion, and I've emailed Wentzlof with no response . Bad axe was quick to respond, but his website is a little to slick for my tastes. It does appear that he gets very high praise for his product though. I do think that he is the only one pricing his work to stay viable in the market even though most complain about the cost. I am very interested in any pointers for current makers, though I know it is subject to change daily.
thanks,
peter

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Peter,

Welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't show your location. You might live close to another member who would be happy to let you test drive their saws. Mine are mostly rehabs, so not much could be learned about modern makers, but you could see what the different tooth profiles and such contribute to a saw cutting.


Bad axe was quick to respond, but his website is a little to slick for my tastes.

Hey, as long as he is selling some slick saws he may as well have a slick site, no?

Most likely someone else did his web page design.

My other suggestion would be to start a with new post to avoid this one getting lost at the end of another "what's my best choice" thread.

jtk

[george wilson]

I must apologize. I confused Winsor Saws with a cheap English brand. The Winsor saws look perfectly nice.

[Sean Hughto]

Just curious, why aren't the gramercy saws on your consideration list. I love mine fwiw.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a few of the Lie-Nielsen saws and really don't care for the steel they use in their plate. I would much rather have the basic high carbon spring steel of old. Has anyone got, or compiled a list of current saw makers ? It seems that Eccentric is gone, along with Medallion, and I've emailed Wentzlof with no response . Bad axe was quick to respond, but his website is a little to slick for my tastes. It does appear that he gets very high praise for his product though. I do think that he is the only one pricing his work to stay viable in the market even though most complain about the cost. I am very interested in any pointers for current makers, though I know it is subject to change daily.
thanks,
peter

Hi Peter

Welcome.

The fact that BA replied so quickly reflects the high standard of customer service. Everything I have heard about Bad Axe has been out of the top drawer.

The likely reason that Wenzloff have not replied is that Mike has been ill - better now I hear - but working hard to fill backlog.

Both Eccentric and Medalion had prices that were considerably higher than other custom sawmakers. In my opinion, these prices reflected the time required for a true custom saw, and comparable with a custom plane maker.

I agree with Sean, place Gramercy on your list. I have their dovetail and sash saws, and these are superbly made, light and balanced in the hand. I have saws by Wenzloff, LN, LV, Independence Tools, and have made several of my own, along with several vintage UK and US, so can say this with some experience.

Regads from Perth

Derek

[paul cottingham]

I have a bad axe sash saw I bought used from a Creeker. Fantastic saw. I have sent Mark email concerning the saw and he has answered them promptly and graciously. Guess who I am buying my next saw from? I also bought a set of his bench hooks as a Christmas present to myself from my wife (!) and they arrived promptly, very happy with them.
I really like the fact that you can order a handle to fit your hands. With my massive mitts that is a definite plus.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I'm confident the bad axe saws are great, I just hesitate because they are basically twice the price of my other options.... I don't mind to shell out the coin for bad axe if they truly are worth it, but I'd rather save that extra money for another tool. Thoughts, ideas???

Aaron, I live in Worthington, North End, just inside 270. I own a couple of saws, including two from Bad Axe, and one from LN. If you want to give them a try, let me know.

[peter gagliardi]

No intention of slighting Gramercy, or any other. Just a little hard to corral whatever is out there, hence my idea for a list of current makers. I would like to know ALL the options, as I am actively pursuing the options.
peter

[Andrew Pitonyak]

As a side note..... When I ordered my Bad Axe saws, I told them the types and thickness of wood that I expected to use. I never bothered to check the specs on how the blade was cut (pitch, rake, etc), but they cut well, and they are the easiest saws I have to start. My newly sharpened LN probably cuts faster after the cut is started, but it requires more skill to start. For me, a more aggressive saw is more likely to catch and jump when I start the cut. One time, when it jumped, it jumped onto my finger. It hurt, drew some blood, but was not horrid. My only point is that your skill level may indicate that you prefer one saw to another.

Since you live in Columbus Ohio, I know that you can wander into one of our great local stores and even handle some different saws. I was just in the local Woodcraft today, and they carry the Lee Valley saws, which are widely regarded, and they should also have a Rob Cosman saw, which is probably a similar price (I don't remember). One thing about the Rob Cosman saw is that it has a variable pitch specifically to make it easier to start a cut. I vaguely remember that LN may offer that as well.

Interested in what you ended up with, or what you do end up with.

[David Weaver]

I have a few of the Lie-Nielsen saws and really don't care for the steel they use in their plate. I would much rather have the basic high carbon spring steel of old. Has anyone got, or compiled a list of current saw makers ? It seems that Eccentric is gone, along with Medallion, and I've emailed Wentzlof with no response . Bad axe was quick to respond, but his website is a little to slick for my tastes. It does appear that he gets very high praise for his product though. I do think that he is the only one pricing his work to stay viable in the market even though most complain about the cost. I am very interested in any pointers for current makers, though I know it is subject to change daily.
thanks,
peter

Medallion tools is out of commission now, too? What didn't you like about the LN steel (not trolling, serious question)? It's definitely different feeling under the file than most classic steel, but durable. (I have not used LN saws, but have put together several saws from parts, and replated one with 1095 also.

I like them, though, but have none in long saws without a back. I can't bring myself to spend the money on something bigger when the old saws that are cheap are so good.

[Charlie Stanford]

As a side note..... When I ordered my Bad Axe saws, I told them the types and thickness of wood that I expected to use. I never bothered to check the specs on how the blade was cut (pitch, rake, etc), but they cut well, and they are the easiest saws I have to start. My newly sharpened LN probably cuts faster after the cut is started, but it requires more skill to start. For me, a more aggressive saw is more likely to catch and jump when I start the cut. One time, when it jumped, it jumped onto my finger. It hurt, drew some blood, but was not horrid. My only point is that your skill level may indicate that you prefer one saw to another.

Since you live in Columbus Ohio, I know that you can wander into one of our great local stores and even handle some different saws. I was just in the local Woodcraft today, and they carry the Lee Valley saws, which are widely regarded, and they should also have a Rob Cosman saw, which is probably a similar price (I don't remember). One thing about the Rob Cosman saw is that it has a variable pitch specifically to make it easier to start a cut. I vaguely remember that LN may offer that as well.

Interested in what you ended up with, or what you do end up with.

I won't go far as to say I'm skilled with a backsaw but I've used 'em plenty. When I think of somebody who is, people like Ian Kirby come to mind.

That said, I had the L-N dovetail saw and sold it in pretty short order. I could not stand its grabby start and I've never experienced quite anything like it with another saw - crosscut or rip. I have a Crown closed handle dovetail saw that frankly cuts better and did so out of the box. Yep, it's filed crosscut. It sure as hell starts easier and given that the joint is pretty much made or lost at the start it pained me not at all to sell the L-N. I have a Spear and Jackson 12" tenon saw filed rip that starts like butta' so it isn't the rip vs. crosscut bit in play.

[David Weaver]

LN's saw is zero rake, or so I've read. Anyone with one that's too aggressive can mute the rake with a light touch of a file at 10 or 15 degrees on the first couple of inches of teeth.

Given that they sell a large number of their tools to beginners, I don't understand why they sell a zero rake dovetail saw. Maybe they're trying to win a race.

[Chris Griggs]

LN's saw is zero rake, or so I've read. Anyone with one that's too aggressive can mute the rake with a light touch of a file at 10 or 15 degrees on the first couple of inches of teeth.

Given that they sell a large number of their tools to beginners, I don't understand why they sell a zero rake dovetail saw.

I've heard that too, but I don't think its the case. My LN 15ppi rip carcass looks more like 10 degrees of rake, and the saws I've used at there shows sure didn't feel like 0 rake. I wonder if they used to be and then changed it at some point. I think my saw is like 3-4 years old.

[David Weaver]

Maybe...they'd get a lot of saws back if they were all zero rake.

[Charlie Stanford]

Didn't look like zero rake but probably close which is frankly absurd. I mean, how fast do you really need to make a 3/4" long cut (or less, on average)? I think it needed to be jointed too. I ended up making money on the thing - a few bucks at least. Good riddance. That saw and an infernal skew rabbet plane with an A-2 blade that must have been off the charts hard. It came dull and it stayed dull. I couldn't put a scratch on it. I wanted to like it. I didn't care much for the brass parts on the plane either.

[peter gagliardi]

Well, I believe these saws to have about 10 degrees of rake from looking at the geometry of the teeth. What I don't like about the saw is the following: there is set in the rip saw, which from what I've gathered shouldn't be there on a saw that is only going to be cutting about 1" deep in most cases. The set is done in such a way, that the cheek of the tooth rubs the wood - set in the middle of the tooth not the leading edge like normal. So, tracking and cutting a clean line are more than just difficult. The blade seems to have a chromium content- never seen a blade so shiny when new, and still the same after about 5 years. A plain carbon spring steel is the best blade material for a saw. I have used dozens and dozens of old saws, and none of them have these issues even when getting a bit dull. Also, this steel just doesn't get SHARP like carbon steel. I have tried to get it cutting better, but this steel just mushrooms back a heavy wire edge when filed. Good steel will never do that, you will get very minimal wire edge with carbon steel, and it practically rubs right off.
Also, the handle is hung on the saw way too high, it should be lower and behind the cut not on top. If I hold this saw in optimal control sawing position, the lower horn is in the heel of my palm, not exactly comfortable.
so those are a few of my observations on the LN dovetail saw.
peter

[David Weaver]

It's probably polished 1095 steel. It's actually about the closest thing you'll find to plain carbon steel if that's what it is. Hard carbon steel takes a great polish if you want to give it a polish. There should be set on a dovetail saw, just a minimal amount. I'd imagine that your saw was set and either clamped (to reduce the set) or stoned to reduce the set.

You don't want it to have no set at all or it will bind in thicker pins and tails.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Peter

Your LN dovetail saw does not sound like mine at all. Perhaps you should contact LN about it, even after all this time.

I have the LN Independence dovetail saw, filed 15 ppi rip, and the teeth are indeed zero rake. It is an aggressive saw and, unless the "correct" technique is used it will catch when starting a saw cut (Angle the saw up, not down. This reduces the effective rake). It is definitely not a dovetail saw for those starting out. The hang of the handle is taken from the Independence Tools dovetail saw (LN bought the company), which I have as well, and I find this to be just right in my own use. The hang is no different from a Wenzloff dovetail saw, and I believe it is the same as the LV dovetail saws as well. Obviously this hang angle does not suit you, but it is an established norm for dovetail saws .... unless yours is different.

LN, LV and IT ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m4411cfdf.jpg

The LV dovetail saws have a far more relaxed rake (14 degrees), and this makes them much easier to start. They are a perfect saw for those starting out handcutting dovetails (while not being limited to this group).

There is something just wrong about the steel in your saw (from your description). It does not sound to be correctly hardened. It sounds too soft. As I understand, all LN saws are made from spring steel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Roy Griggs]

I came into the market before Mike Wenzloff started making saws but after the first round of cottage industry saws (Independence Tools, I believe). Bought a set of Pax saws and was sorely disappointed; almost as soon as Mike started making saws I bought good saws from him. I have never regretted that as they have been worth their weight in gold "to me". So, my simple advise is to buy the best saw you can afford, you won't regret it. You will regret buying cheap saws....not that I am saying anyones saws are cheap! By the way after re-handeling, re-toothing, re-sharpening and re-setting the Pax saws they turned out to be pretty good saws!

[Mike Holbrook]

I am a big fan of the TFWW saws. I have the Sash Saw and the Dovetail and love both of them. I don't know where you could find a better made, better sharpened more versatile saw than the Sash Saw with it's thin plate and combo file job it can handle a wide range of work. I have used the LN saws at Highland Woodworking several times and they are certrainly fine saws too, I just like the TFWW saws better. The thin plates feel more like the Japanese saws I became use to when it was so hard to find decent saws in the US, but better.

[Charlie Stanford]

Maybe...they'd get a lot of saws back if they were all zero rake.

I think another problem on rip filed saws with an aggresive rake is that they will push material out the back of the cut if they aren't jointed absolutely perfectly and then they will always spelch out the backside worse than a crosscut saw will. Once I got the L-N started the backside of the cut looked like hell. I mean really bad, pushing string out the back on Honduras Mahogany. Not good. Fixable I'm sure, but not worth the hassle. Too much other product out there. I think the saw needed a deeper gullet, maybe, to go with the upright teeth. Not sure, but something was just troubling overall about the thing. At that time, I surely didn't understand all of the accolades. I'm sure a lot of guys just thought it was their technique. I definitely don't think so now and didn't really then. I think the L-V set up makes a lot more sense - more relaxed rake. I see where Derek advocates starting the cut with the toe pointing in the air. I think hell will freeze over before I start a joinery cut with a backsaw anywhere but at the back of the cut and with the toe pointing down. It just feels natural to me.

[David Weaver]

Crosscut saws do a really nice job on the back side of the cut. If you cut tails first (I guess you may not), then it's not as big of a deal because you can always mark the outside face and cut into it rather than having it in the back. I guess if you do pins first, you'll be marking tails on the inside face, never really thought about it. Maybe there's a case to be made where a beginner would be better off with them.

Every true rip saw I have (I don't have any with rake relaxed more than five degrees) will leave some junk on the back side of the cut when compared to a crosscut saw or a japanese dozuku.

[Charlie Stanford]

Crosscut saws do a really nice job on the back side of the cut. If you cut tails first (I guess you may not), then it's not as big of a deal because you can always mark the outside face and cut into it rather than having it in the back. I guess if you do pins first, you'll be marking tails on the inside face, never really thought about it. Maybe there's a case to be made where a beginner would be better off with them.

Every true rip saw I have (I don't have any with rake relaxed more than five degrees) will leave some junk on the back side of the cut when compared to a crosscut saw or a japanese dozuku.

True on the rip saws. Glad it's not just me as it so often seems to be.

I do in fact usually cut pins first but I don't care for rank blowout even if it can be effectively hidden. Maybe I need to break down and get a Dozuki. Could the temperature in hell have just dropped a degree?

[Derek Cohen]

I think another problem on rip filed saws with an aggresive rake is that they will push material out the back of the cut if they aren't jointed absolutely perfectly and then they will always spelch out the backside worse than a crosscut saw will. Once I got the L-N started the backside of the cut looked like hell. I mean really bad, pushing string out the back on Honduras Mahogany.

Charles, while I do not disagree with you, I fail to see the relevance of very mild spelching at the back of a board as it is never seen. Indeed, I always chamfer the edges as well when fitting the two sides together.

The degree of spelching you describe with your (ex-) LN saw sounds as if there was too much set on the teeth. Here is the spelching one might expect from the average rip-filed dovetail saw:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Veritas%2020%20tpi%20dovetail%20saw/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_4cf599ca_zps3bf559 01.jpg

I do not see this to be an issue as it wipes off with a finger.

Years ago I won an unused Independence Tools dovetail saw on eBay, and sent it directly to Mike Wenzloff to check over. Knowing the hardwoods I use, Mike added fleam to the teeth, in other words, creating a semi crosscut saw. There is no doubt that crosscut will work in a rip cut and, if you look at the picture above, you can see it does leave a touch less rag (for whatever that is worth), but not enough less to see this as a factor. The down side of a crosscut is that it does not hold an edge as long as a rip filed saw.


I see where Derek advocates starting the cut with the toe pointing in the air. I think hell will freeze over before I start a joinery cut with a backsaw anywhere but at the back of the cut and with the toe pointing down. It just feels natural to me.

Oh I don't know about that. Following two lines seems more sensible than just one.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m654f2955.jpg

This is the method that Adam Cherubini advocates.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

I think another problem on rip filed saws with an aggresive rake is that they will push material out the back of the cut if they aren't jointed absolutely perfectly and then they will always spelch out the backside worse than a crosscut saw will. Once I got the L-N started the backside of the cut looked like hell. I mean really bad, pushing string out the back on Honduras Mahogany.

Charles, while I do not disagree with you, I fail to see the relevance of very mild spelching at the back of a board as it is never seen. Indeed, I always chamfer the edges as well when fitting the two sides together.

The degree of spelching you describe with your (ex-) LN saw sounds as if there was too much set on the teeth. Here is the spelching one might expect from the average rip-filed dovetail saw:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Veritas%2020%20tpi%20dovetail%20saw/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_4cf599ca_zps3bf559 01.jpg

I do not see this to be an issue as it wipes off with a finger.

Years ago I won an unused Independence Tools dovetail saw on eBay, and sent it directly to Mike Wenzloff to check over. Knowing the hardwoods I use, Mike added fleam to the teeth, in other words, creating a semi crosscut saw. There is no doubt that crosscut will work in a rip cut and, if you look at the picture above, you can see it does leave a touch less rag (for whatever that is worth), but not enough less to see this as a factor. The down side of a crosscut is that it does not hold an edge as long as a rip filed saw.


I see where Derek advocates starting the cut with the toe pointing in the air. I think hell will freeze over before I start a joinery cut with a backsaw anywhere but at the back of the cut and with the toe pointing down. It just feels natural to me.

Oh I don't know about that. Following two lines seems more sensible than just one.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m654f2955.jpg



Regards from Perth

Derek

"This is the method that Adam Cherubini advocates."

I assume that I'm supposed to find this meaningful.

Ian Kirby starts on the back. Which one do you think has built more furniture in his career? Would it even be close? Which one was trained in a notable professional shop and has been continuously employed in the trade his entire adult, working life? We're in profound trouble when we overlook real professionals and look to part-timers for technique to emulate. This would be unprecedented in the history of the trade. Now, front or back is a binary thing. I'm sure there are folks worth imitating that start on the front (can't think of one at the moment), but Adam Cherubini? Really? Doesn't pass the laugh test. This is like having Chris Schwarz teach us how to kink (use?) a back-saw. Every now and then a blind squirrel stumbles upon a nut. The rest of the squirrels don't go around looking for nuts in the same way because of it. Or do they? I'm starting to think so.

Otherwise joinery saws really shouldn't produce much rag, understanding that it does vary some by species. If they do, something is wrong. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. You could start an excelsior packing material factory with the junk those saws of yours apparently produce. Don't throw that stuff away, you can use it when you pack your saws up and ship them back to the States. If that's as good as it gets I would without a doubt use a Japanese saw. In a heartbeat.

[Chris Griggs]

I used to start at the toe, but have slowly gravitated towards the method shown above in Dereks pic, mainly because there are situations where one has to start that way (e.g. HBDTs). It's odd but I've always liked fairly aggressive joinery saws. That could be because I learned using an LN saw, but for whatever reason I'd rather have to back off pressure on an overly aggressive saw that add pressure with an under aggressive saw... I'm just more accurate that way. The dovetail saw I made recently, which has more or less replaced my LN for most things, is built with that in mind. The hang angle is high enough so that when my work is in the vise it rest perpendicular to the piece or very slightly upward, so that I only need to tip my hand up a touch to be cutting with the grain - avoiding the bending/squatting I would need to do with a saw that has less hang. Its also filed more aggressively than my LN (5 degrees of rake as opposed to the approximately 10 degrees in my LN). I can still start it tipping forward and occasionally will but it works best tipped up, and will cut very quickly with virtually no downward pressure. It does have a touch of fleam in it (no more than 5 degree) which make it a little less aggressive. Not much less, but I believe it smooths out the cutting action and leave the back of the cut a little cleaner. It also, smooths it just enough that it make the little cross cuts for removing the waste on the outer edges of the dovetails pretty smooth.

Truth be told, I can't say much about how the back of the cut looks. Its not something I have ever really paid much attention to. I pretty much always cut tails first with the show surface facing me, and even when I don't, the little fuzzys that come out on a very aggressive saw are rarely more than just that... fuzzies that can be removed with one swipe of a plane or 220 sandpaper. Most the time they fall off on there own and can't remember a time off the top of my head when there was any visible tearing on the exterior of the cut. Perhaps this has to do with the species of woods I generally work (mostly cherry and walnut and a little hard maple). Perhaps other species would have more detrimental spelching on the back?

Anyway, all that rambling is simply to say that this is one thing that is very personal preference, in that it seems to have a lot to do with how you saw and possibly the types of wood you work the most. What I know for myself is the more pressure I need to apply the less accurate I am, and when I'm working with a saw that essentially does the cutting for me with just back and forth and little to no downward pressure, my results are more accurate, more consistent, and cleaner.

[David Weaver]

True on the rip saws. Glad it's not just me as it so often seems to be.

I do in fact usually cut pins first but I don't care for rank blowout even if it can be effectively hidden. Maybe I need to break down and get a Dozuki. Could the temperature in hell have just dropped a degree?

That's the only reason I tried a crosscut saw, IIRC. In soft woods that cut really easily like walnut, you can blitz a crosscut saw right through a dovetail cut. Much is made of the dovetail cuts being no pressure (I guess this is good for a beginner), but it's much more pleasant to start a cut and then push the saw through it with some force once established.

But, a crosscut saw doesn't work like a dozuki.

Anyway, the first several (dozen?, two dozen?) sets of dovetails I cut were with a combination dozuki, and if I tell the truth, dovetails from it are still better than any of my western saws despite pride in construction. You can set the thing down on a line or next to it, holding onto it with both hands and literally pull without guiding the plate at all and it will just cut where you put it without wandering. No light pressure to start the cut or anything, just pull it. Cuts super clean on crosscuts, too. Really clean. Wish I could sharpen teeth the way the machines for those saws can..

.. and wish the impulse hardened western saws had teeth as cleanly cut.

In 1/2" in honest white pine (not the styrofoam cosman uses), two pulls - one to start the cut, one to cut it to depth, max three. Add one for 3/4" if you're making the outside of a box or something. Maybe double that for hardwood. really fast and waxy clean cut line, laser cut on the inside and outside.

[Sean Hughto]

Derek, how do you cut the shoulder of say a 4 inch wide tenon? I find that on wide cuts, I have much better accuracy starting at the back corner and working the line to front. Perhaps it is my technique, but if I start at the front, holding the line is much more difficult.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Sean

The way I do it is to saw to two lines on one side (both cheek lines), from the shoulder to the middle of the tenon (i.e. a triangle) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Mortice-and-Tenon%20Primer/Sawingtenoncheek_zps85801131.jpg

... then turn the board around and do the same on the other side.

Finally the stretcher is straightened (clamped vertically), and sawn with the saw held in the horizontal to the shoulder line. Here is another picture of the initial (angled) saw cut taken at Tools For Working Wood (just before New Year) with one of Joel's fine saws ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Mortice-and-Tenon%20Primer/Joel1_zpsc9490dc3.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

Sorry, my question must have been poor. After you have sawn the cheeks, as shown, you must then saw at the shoulder line - the cross cut. How do you make that sort of cut across a wide board? I find it is easier to strat at the "back" corner.

[Mike Holbrook]

I do not have the experience of some posters but I am amazed at the kerf my TFWW Sash saw makes. My corrected vision has a hard time finding it sometimes. The Sash saw has a .20" plate, with 5 degrees negative rake and 7 degrees fleam (similar to Chris's specs). The teeth are hammer set and hand filed, which may be part of the reason the kerf it leaves is so small, especially for a 14" saw. The tooth set is apparently small via these methods. I talked to the guy who sharpens many of the saws for TFWW and his enthusiasm for his work is reflected in the kerf the blade makes. I hate to agree with Chris again :)P, but I got use to the light pressure required to make my flexy Silky saws work and I think this method improves accuracy. A light hand may even be a requirement when using a thin plate with minimal set, but I believe the reduced effort and results are worth any small learning curve. For the money the OP originally mentioned one could purchase the TFWW set of Sash and Dovetail saws. At the time I purchased the set myself the price seemed high, but I am glad I made the decision I did. I don't know how I could make a more precise cut in wood by hand. Joel offered to send me the Sash Saw on trial when I was posting here about my backsaw search. I suspect he knew it would not make it back. I think most of the hand saw aficionados here would also find it hard to part with these saws. I can't find the info on their site at the moment but I believe Gramercy also offers a great deal on resharpening their saws.

Derek added a picture to his post, that looks like a Gramercy Sash saw he is using? Or is that Joel? Whoever the guy with the saw is he looks happy ;-)

[Derek Cohen]

Sean, again at the front where I can see that I am joining two lines. That way I also know I am sawing the vertical accurately. Sawing from the back corner along the line is one way of keeping the crosscut straight, but it also means that I have to guess for vertical.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[peter gagliardi]

Mike, what are TFMM or TFWW saws?
I do still maintain that set is for deeper cuts, not 1/2" dovetails though- the plate never gets deep enough for heat and binding. Set is for cross cutting, and ripping in wet hard and softwood, and deep cuts. You learn very quickly about set, and how to use and what saw to use, along with SHARP vs so-so sharp when cutting timber frame
joinery by hand. If you want to know if your technique is good, and your equipment is good,try cutting a few mixed hardwood timber frames with pieces , some of which are 12 x 14-16" in cross section all with just a handsaw .1/2" dovetails in kiln dried white oak or maple should be a breeze with a proper saw.
Peter

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I start sawing at the front with a push saw, but not at nearly as an extreme angle as Derek - on some woods, that "uphill" sawing action works easier for me.

I really like the Gramercy joinery saws as well - I can't comment on the handles or the hang, as mine originally came from kits that a fellow Creeker built and eventually sold to finance other saw purchases. I have the two carcase saws, however, and I find I reach for the rip carcase saw for most all of my dovetails, and really any cut that will fit under the plate. The extra length really speeds dovetails, as well.

The thing I like most about these, I think, is the balance - it must be the folded backs over the slotted backs of other saws, like the Lie-Nielsen saws I tried at their tool event, or the Adria dovetail saw I also have - the blade just ends up being much lighter. Gives it a more nimble feeling, and somehow makes it feel a little easier to keep in control. I've been experimenting with a slightly more aggressive rake on the rip saw and my Adria dovetail saw. (I have no idea how they were originally filed, or if the filings I received them with were original) The shorter Adria dovetail saw is actually heavier in the blade than the Gramercy, and I believe with the handles that were made, the hang is similar, so with a more aggressive rake, I actually need to sort of lift away extra pressure. With the lighter blades of the Gramercy saw, I just sort of let the saw sit there. I don't need to relieve the pressure.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Mike, what are TFMM or TFWW saws?


I assume he's talking about the Gramercy saws made by Tools For Working Wood.

[peter gagliardi]

Ok , thanks Josh

[Mike Holbrook]

Peter sorry for the abbreviations. I hate it when I don't know them too! Tools for Working Wood (TFWW, Gramercy) is just a long type for someone wearing cotton gloves. If you ever get the chance to get Dyshidrotic Exzema I recommend just taking a pass.

Yes, set is very important. I have one saw I bought at auction that obviously was sanded down to the teeth, which I could not tell from the pictures. The saw sinks about 1/4 to 1/2 inch in wood and want move at all. I have a dozen or so old saws I have bought at auction over the last year or two, enough to see just how much difference set can make on a kerf and how the saw cuts. I had a problem starting cuts with my Gramercy saws when I first started using them. I still remind myself to reduce the pressure I am applying when using them.

I have plans to make quite a few cabinet doors (from hardwood) and many long rip cuts. I have a pile of German Beech, Ash, and Hickory dried and humidity adjusted in my shop, waiting to be made into a bench and sawbenches. I broke down at the prospect of ripping/resawing all those boards. After much thought and posting here, I bought a Laguna LT14 SUV band saw with a 1 1/4" Resaw King blade and DriftMaster fence. Now I think I can loose the table saw and do all the "smaller" cuts by hand. I also restored a Miller Falls, Langdon 74C Miter box and saw. I will keep using my Festool saw for cutting plywood, MDF... Now if I can get my hands heeled I can start cutting wood instead of posting.

[Dan Endsley]

I have owned a Winsor carcass saw for a few years now. During this time, I have also owned backsaws by L-N, Adria and Wenzloff. The Winsor saw continues to be my favorite, with 11" long plate and perfectly shaped Walnut handle. I have also sent a vintage saw to Robert @ Winsor for sharpening, and was very pleased. He is reasonable, and saw came back razor sharp.
Wenzloff saws are top-notch as well. I have a tenon saw by Wenzloff, and love the feel of the closed handle. Beautifully made saws.

[Mike Brady]

David, there really is no way to remove a kink from a saw that has a slotted back, according to Mark Harrell of Bad Axe. Saws with slotted backs have the plate glued into the back and attempting to remove the plate will ruin both the back and the plate. That said, if you don't kink or drop the saw there won't be a problem. I'm totally satisfied with my slotted back saws and don't think that paying twice the price for a folded back saw is justified.

[Charles Guest]

Well, I believe these saws to have about 10 degrees of rake from looking at the geometry of the teeth. What I don't like about the saw is the following: there is set in the rip saw, which from what I've gathered shouldn't be there on a saw that is only going to be cutting about 1" deep in most cases. The set is done in such a way, that the cheek of the tooth rubs the wood - set in the middle of the tooth not the leading edge like normal. So, tracking and cutting a clean line are more than just difficult. The blade seems to have a chromium content- never seen a blade so shiny when new, and still the same after about 5 years. A plain carbon spring steel is the best blade material for a saw. I have used dozens and dozens of old saws, and none of them have these issues even when getting a bit dull. Also, this steel just doesn't get SHARP like carbon steel. I have tried to get it cutting better, but this steel just mushrooms back a heavy wire edge when filed. Good steel will never do that, you will get very minimal wire edge with carbon steel, and it practically rubs right off.
Also, the handle is hung on the saw way too high, it should be lower and behind the cut not on top. If I hold this saw in optimal control sawing position, the lower horn is in the heel of my palm, not exactly comfortable.
so those are a few of my observations on the LN dovetail saw.
peter

Agree, and the scrapers they sell made with the same saw plate they use for their back saws are a pale imitation of, say, a vintage Sandvik. The L-N scrapers won't take a fine burr and hold it for more than a stroke or two. Just really chewy feeling metal under the burnisher.

[Hasin Haroon]

I realise the OP has probably long since made their decision w.r.t which saw to purchase, but since the thread has been revived I figured I'd throw in my two cents. Which saw is good for you depends on what you plan to do with it - e.g. The first time I tried my thin plate LN dovetail and carcass saws was in a piece of pine, and they cut through like butter (they also do very well on hardwoods). The first time I tried my Bad Axe Sash saw, I tried it on a piece of pine and was....very disappointed. On the other hand, the Bad Axe saw cuts very well in hardwoods. Although I find their hybrid filing makes crosscutting easier than ripping, but that could just be me. Quality wise they are both great tools, though the BA are a step up, because of the small size of production and the folded backs making them more lifeproof.