backsaw differences between price points

[michael petters]

I'm about to purchase dovetail, tenon, and carcase saws, based on the recommendations provided in The Anarchist's Toolchest. That and the fact that I want to begin cutting dovetails, tenons, dados, and crosscutting to length by hand.

I've read about 30 informative threads in this forum regarding various brands of saws including Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Gramercy, Bad Axe. I've also read many reviews on the web regarding these saws, and at least one comparative review that compared and contrasted several of them. There seems to be near universal agreement that these are all good/great brands and you can't go wrong from the perspective of cut quality, accuracy, and comfort (with the inevitable per-user preferences). Veritas is an outlier from a price point perspective. A few reviews online don't seem to point to important differences in quality or what you can accomplish between brands. At the same time, I've seen a bunch of comments about the Veritas saws in the forums to the effect of "good for the price point" without additional info about why.

Taking money out of the equation, I'm wondering if there are any factors that I'm too novice to pick up on that would separate Veritas saws from the more expensive ones. Assuming I have the goal of buying saws that I can use for many years and as my skills grow. Is there any meaningful factor that separates these saws which are half (or less) of the price from the other brands that a sawyer with 5 or 10 years experience under their belt would identify as a reason to not purchase them? Just interested in the "why" behind "good for the price point" or if the actual answer is "good at any price point."

All these companies, including Veritas, seem to be smallish companies or individuals so I don't see any ethical danger of supporting some huge faceless corporation by giving money to any of them.

Thanks in advance.

Mike

[David Weaver]

They all likely use the same steel, they'll all be straight and they'll all have properly formed and sharpened teeth. I'd pick what you prefer if I were in your shoes, and what you can tolerate with price. There is nothing that any of them won't make.

The difference between the veritas and the other saws is probably that LV is more likely to try new ideas that limit labor. I would guess that gramercy and bad axe do the work more traditionally, and LN is in the middle, but still very traditional. LV's construction is like the flyer in a rifle grouping, except a flyer is bad and LV is just different.

In reality, if you are conservative with your dollars and decide not to keep the LVs, you can easily resell them on just about any woodworking board.

[Jim Matthews]

If you're buying the Veritas saws, I recommend you start with their larger carcass saw, filed ripcut.

I had the smaller dovetail saws and never used them. The larger saw was easy to handle for dovetails
and suitable for tenons, as well. It cut (although more slowly) crosscuts in smaller stock just fine.

Shortly afterward I bought the Bad Axe "jack" saw and it's the one I use for nearly everything.

Coupled with a decent panel saw with more than 10 teeth per inch, it handles almost
all my sawing needs. I have smaller saws, but rarely use those.

Bottom line, a medium size back saw with a stout (not paper thin) piece of steel that's well-sharpened
will do most all the things necessary for my joinery.

http://paulsellers.com/2012/01/a-good-dovetail-saw-where-can-i-get-one/
"I have used the Veritas 10″ ripcut tenon saw for 3 1/2 years and can recommend it for a daily use saws"

[Stanley Covington]

LV's construction is like the flyer in a rifle grouping, except a flyer is bad and LV is just different.

If all the brands were the same, would the grouping then be a bug hole?;)

[Kevin Grady]

While I am not an expert, I love saws. I own 10+ back saws, 1 LN tenon saw, 4 LVs and a handful of vintage saws. While the LVs are not as visually appealing as the LNs or vintage saws, they work wonderfully and with my big mits for hands, they fit very comfortably. In end, with quality saws (which includes the LVs), it will come down to how they fit in your hands and how comfortable they feel to you. Having cheap (most were less than $20) vintage saws makes it easier for me modify the handles to fit my hands and figure out what works, but I didn't have the opportunity to touch the LN or LVs before buying and while the LN is beautiful, if LV made a nice big tenon saw, I probably wouldn't own the LN.

[David Barbee]

This is a hard one. From my experience what saw to buy is mostly a matter of feel and aesthetics. I'm going to leave aesthetics out of the equation because aesthetics don't cut wood. Different saws have a different feel. Things like Handle size, handle form, toe weight, filing, and form all play factors. There really is no way for anyone to pick a saw for you. You either have to go out on a limb and give one a shot or you need put yourself in a position to get your hands on some different saws. This is one thing that the Wood Working In America Conference excels at. If WWIA isn't an option for you my advice would be to purchase one and give it a shot. Odds are you will like it, if not you probably won't have any trouble unloading it to someone else who will.

David B.

PS. I tried out a Veritas preproduction saw and was very pleased with it. You don't need an expensive saw to cut the joints you need. I used a $20 dovetail saw for years and cut some very nice dovetails with it.

[David Weaver]

If all the brands were the same, would the grouping then be a bug hole?;)

I might have any idea what those were called if had even a remote chance of shooting one! A couple of cloverleafs would be a good day.

[Jim Koepke]

Michael,

Welcome, to the Creek. It looks like you have been here awhile. Your location is not indicated in your profile. You may be near someone who is willing to let you get a feel for the saws before you buy. Another possibility is there may be a tool event in a location near you to experience the feel of some of these saws in your hands.

Having no experience with any of the saws mentioned, my comment is about the differences being mostly cosmetic.

The Veritas saws use composition materials making them different than traditional saws. For some folks this might not be the same as a saw that is also an art piece created by an independent saw shop.

The Veritas saws are production models with limited choices on the tooth geometry. The others may have more choice.

As for the ability to do the job, there is likely very little difference.

The saws in my shop for joinery are an eclectic bunch. The ones from the later half of the 20th century are rarely used any more. They could cut fine, but the saw plates are not made of as good a metal as some of the other saws and they seem to dull quicker.

As David said, if you want to save money, the offering from LV will do the work and save some cash.

If something more traditional suits your taste, then it might be best to go for one of those.

The satisfaction that comes from having a beautiful tool to use lasts a lifetime. The satisfaction of saving some money disappears the first time you wish you had spent a bit more for the "nicer" tool.

Of course for some folks the Veritas saw is the "nicer" tool for its modern design.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

I might have any idea what those were called if had even a remote chance of shooting one! A couple of cloverleafs would be a good day.

A man after my own heart. Would that be a five leaf clover then?

[David Weaver]

A man after my own heart. Would that be a five leaf clover then?

Maybe if someone else is shooting. I start celebrating at 3 :)

[michael petters]

Thanks all for the answers thus far.

Jim Matthews - I started to research a "fewer than the three saws Schwarz recommends" solution but quickly stopped myself due to not wanting to overcomplicate my research with too many variables and just take the recommendation of an expert. But your thoughts about one good rip filed saw for some dovetails and tenons do make sense to me for that application. Then of course crosscuts and some dados might warrant one additional crosscut saw.

[Jim Matthews]

I don't cut dadoes that way, any longer.

Derek Cohen has a good method shown, In The Woodshop (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SlidingDovetailsbyhand1.html).
I have migrated to scoring a knife line and using a chisel (http://paulsellers.com/2012/12/making-the-wall-clock/) to pare down to the bottom of my dados.

If I'm making a cut longer than my saw plate, it's a through crosscut or rip.
I find a measure of control using a chisel to cut grooves, and use a router to level the bottom.

I don't trust the driver (that's me) to get a perfect wall that long with a saw.

[Jeff Labs]

I have a LN dovetail saw, 2 LV carcass saws, and recently bought 2 Bad Axe large tenon saws. I find I have an easier time balancing, and therefore cutting straight lines with the LN and Bad Axe saws. My theory is that the spines of the LV saws are lighter weight and harder to balance, but it could very well be my lack of skill, as I'm sure others have no problem cutting straight with them!

[Jason Coen]

Maybe if someone else is shooting. I start celebrating at 3 :)

3? I thought you were a math guy. :cool:

[Ron Bontz]

The LV saws are an excellent bang for the buck. No two ways about it. If you get those you can save your pennies and get what you want later after you actually have an idea of what you really need. Or want. :) Or just use those pennies for those exotic wood projects you have been jonesen to build. :) Best of luck.

[Adam Cruea]

I have a LN dovetail saw, 2 LV carcass saws, and recently bought 2 Bad Axe large tenon saws. I find I have an easier time balancing, and therefore cutting straight lines with the LN and Bad Axe saws. My theory is that the spines of the LV saws are lighter weight and harder to balance, but it could very well be my lack of skill, as I'm sure others have no problem cutting straight with them!

It's not your lack of skill.

If I use my Bad Axe saw, I don't want to push the saw down to get it to cut, and it cuts faster. My LV saws seem to need some down force to cut decently quick.

Also, the hang angle on the handles are different. With the LV, I've noticed I'm riding up over the blade. With my BA saws, I'm pushing the saw differently. I also, for some odd reason, am able to use the BA saws without wrestling them with a death grip.

The LV saws are not *bad* by any means. . .they're just. . .different. I still use them, but I think a minute before I grab them and wonder "will my 16" tenon do this easier?"

[David Keller NC]

Michael - Just my $0.02 (and worth about as much).

The primary difference between the saws made by individual makers (Wenzlof & Sons, Bad Axe, Grammercy (Tools for Working Wood) etc...) and the ones made by Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley are the hand work that goes into the tote shaping, and hand-filing/setting the saw teeth. Lie-Nielsen's and Lee Valley's saws are shaped with specialized tooling on machines, the individual makers tend to do a lot of shaping by hand after roughing out the shape with machines. It's possible to get a more nuanced shape when the final work is done by hand, but whether this matters to you as an owner/user is an individual choice.

Lie-Nielsen's saws use traditional materials with a modern twist - slotted brass for the backs of their saws, and slotted nuts to attach the tote to the saw plate. Lee Valley's design uses a molded back to attach the saw plate and the tote, and the fewer operations that this requires allows them to sell the saws at a considerable discount.

Regarding the saw teeth filing/setting, many users think that the hand process for doing this makes the saw easier to guide/push in the cut. Again, whether this is true or not may depend on the individual user. As for me, I use Lie-Nielsen's saws frequently, and also use a set of British antiques. I can feel a difference, but would be unable to tell you which one is "better".

One other consideration is that you will likely be using whichever saw you choose for many years, so the initial price differential will likely be forgotten long before you decide to replace the saw.

[Mike Cogswell]

Bad Axe also makes the handles in multiple sizes, so you may get a better fit from one of theirs.

[Adam Cruea]

Bad Axe also makes the handles in multiple sizes, so you may get a better fit from one of theirs.

Ooo, forgot about this, even though I had to send my tenons back so that Mark could re-make them and put on a large sized handle.

[Jeff Labs]

Adam, you're right - if I think about it, I typically white-knuckle grip my LV saws, but keep a pretty loose grip on the Bad Axe. Maybe I just need to be more patient and accept the fact it may take longer to cut something with the LV saws.

Back to the OP, I have to say that I don't regret buying the LV saws; at that price point they are a great value and have helped me know what I want when it comes to backsaws.

[Curt Putnam]

I have the Veritas/LV saws, dovetail & carcass, rip & xcut. Price is too compelling for this handsaw novice. I was completely prepared to pop for a Bad Axe but they were not at WIA - West so it will wait - or may go to one the custom makers out there. A couple points need to be emphasized: fit in your hand is important - the Veritas are about 1/4" shy of my hand width (guess I need to break out a rasp.) Balance is important although not totally critical.

One point not yet made is that factory filing will only last until you need to have it sharpened (or do it yourself.) At that point you can have pretty much any good filer add whatever nuances you might want. For example, you might want relaxed rake for the 1st inch or two and maybe add a degree or two of fleam. They are all made of the same steel so the unalterable differences are looks, balance and handle shape/size.

I bought the Veritas saws because I expect to "use up" one or two just learning how to saw straight and learning how to do what I want relative to the line. I'm hopeful that by the time I've had them resharpened a few times that my saw skills will be up to the joinery I want to do. By that time I will know whether or not I want something different in the way of a saw. In the meantime, I've bought two of the dovetail saws so I have a spare while one is away getting sharpened - two for the price of everyone else's one.

JMO + YMMV

[Dale Cruea]

I have 4 LV back saws. 2 of them are dovetail, 1 is crosscut the other is rip.

I use them just not very often. I will reach for my old Lynx for crosscut first.

I try to use the dovetail saws for dovetails. The cut great. I don't like how they feel in my hand.

I think they are OK saws for the price. Just not what I am looking for in saws.

I just ordered Bad Axe saws. Tenon, Carcase and dovetail. I am waiting for them to arrive. Then maybe I can commend on the difference if there is one.

If you would like to try LV saws before you buy I will gladly send you mine to try as they are rarely used in my shop.

Again, not bad saws at all. Just not to my liking.

Dale