cheeks and shoulders

[Jeff Bartley]

Like many, I like to tune up my mortise and tenon joints by hand. Sometimes I cut the joints by hand, sometimes I use power tools. Fine tuning cheeks for me has meant using a piece of wood with course sandpaper taped to it......basically I cut the tenons and then sand to fit. For tuning shoulders I usually scribe a line with a knife and then carefully pare with a chisel. It works but I want to use hand planes for these tasks now. The Feb issue of Finewoodworking actually has an article to this effect discussing the various planes for this task.

So here's my list of candidates:
shoulder plane
rabbet block
jack rabbit (this was missing from the FW article)

Let's talk about what works for you and why. I have never owned any of these planes but here's my thoughts: the shoulder plane seems like the logical best choice, rabbet block seems really handy but might not work so well on shoulders, and then there's the jack rabbit........could this be the most versatile, or is it too large for this type of work? Please feel free to comment on any others not on my list as well as the different sizes. One more fyi: I do own and use a stanley #78 but I fine it's adjustments a bit course for the work I'm trying to do here. Thanks and Happy New Year!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

shoulders I do with a sharp chisel - a knifed line gets perfect registration, and a few paring strokes and it's good. Cheeks I've been doing with a broad paring chisel or a coarse file, although for smaller work, having a router plane has been the godsend when something needs tuning. I've been trying to get things as close as possible off the saw - having to finesse every joint makes something take three times as long, it seems. That said, I'm not at the point with mortise and tenon where it works everytime on anything very large.

I've taken to just drawboring whenever I can get away with it. I don't try and use it as an excuse for sloppy work, but it's refreshing knowing that the piece will still be holding even if I have an imperfect glue joint.

[Prashun Patel]

Shoulder plane. It's taller and registers better, IMHO.

I will say, though, that as my chiseling skills improve, I find the chisel to be the best fine tuner for just about everything.

[Sean Hughto]

For cheeks, a router plane is a favorite of mine as it keep things parallel and the tenon centered. All the other tools you mention, plus a straight bench chisel, work fine too.

For shoulders, I've never found a reason to depart from the scribe with and knife and pare with a chisel method. It has always worked great and been quite simple.

[Chris Griggs]

For cheeks, a router plane is a favorite of mine as it keep things parallel and the tenon centered. All the other tools you mention, plus a straight bench chisel, work fine too.

For shoulders, I've never found a reason to depart from the scribe with and knife and pare with a chisel method. It has always worked great and been quite simple.

Yep. Router plane is IMHO the most excellent tool for cheeks. I do find a shoulder plane handy to have but a scribe line and slight undercut with a chisel make getting clean shoulders pretty easy. Get a router plane, it's still my favorite tool in the shop...

[Jeff Bartley]

A router plane! That makes good sense........now I can't believe it wasn't on my first list. And this is why I love this forum; good real-world advise. Between the big two (LN and LV) which router plane do you like?
Joshua---the draw-bore rules doesn't it! It was a watershed moment for me the first time I drove a draw-bore peg in and watched the joint close up tight......I've used them ever since.

[Sean Hughto]

I preferred LV's over the LN's initial offering due to the LN's open throat, but now that LN has a closed throat model, it's a pick-em.

[Chris Griggs]

I preferred LV's over the LN's initial offering due to the LN's open throat, but now that LN has a closed throat model, it's a pick-em.

Agreed! I'm sure you'll be happy with either, but I'm glad I have the LV. One big plus for the LV is that there are more blade options and they are less expensive and there is also an inlay tool addition if that's of interest for you someday. I guess I think the LV has a more versatile fence design as well. Obviously the LN is of equal quality and I hesitate to strongly recommend one over the other, but I honestly feel that the LV's additional options makes it a better pick. That's just my personal opinion, and obviously the LN would be a very nice option as well. If you go LN, I would definitely recommend the closed throat model.

[Sean Hughto]

I should add that LV's fence is better in that one can easily add a piece of wood to make it longer. This is not a consideration in using the plane for tenon cheeks, but is useful in other operations.

[Bob Warfield]

Depends on what size M/T your working with. I find I use a small router plane more often than not. Mine is an old Stanley but if I were to buy a new small one, it would definately be the LN version. As has been mentioned, use a sharp chisel to clean up the shoulders.
Thanks
Bob

[Jim Koepke]

Occasionally mine are done with the shoulder plane, but using a chisel and undercutting seems faster without the danger of blowing out the far edge.

One thing done on my M&T joints might be considered cheating. This is making a shallow socket around the mortise for the piece with the tenon to slip into. This hides any rough edges or misfits. This is usually less than 1/16" deep. It also works well with lap joints.

jtk

[Bob Warfield]

One thing done on my M&T joints might be considered cheating. This is making a shallow socket around the mortise for the piece with the tenon to slip into. This hides any rough edges or misfits. This is usually less than 1/16" deep. It also works well with lap joints.

jtk

Jim I understand what your doing with the tenoned piece but I don't understand what your doing with a lap joint?
Bob

[David Cockey]

Stanley 70 1/2 router plane with Lee Valley/Veritas blade.

[James Owen]

Like most of the others on this thread: router plane for the cheeks and a chisel for slightly undercutting the shoulders.....

[Stanley Covington]

A kiwa ganna (what are they called in English?), or other skewed plane works better than a shoulder plane in my experience because the blade is wider, the angle is lower, the skew helps it cut cross-grain cleaner (although there are skew shoulder planes), and the center of gravity and center of applied force is lower and more stable. Faster, cleaner, more control.

I am fond of shoulder planes, but for shaving tenon cheeks, there are better choices. If you need a router plane for tenon cheeks, I suspect you need to practice on your sawing skills, whether by hand or machine.

The LN skewed rabbet is great as well as their rabbet block. Since getting the rabbet block, I have found it extremely useful and seldom use any other block plane, besides the skew.

Stan

[Richard Shaefer]

I guess everyone has their favorite widget, but I like my L/N rabbet block plane for trimming cheeks. I don't see the end of the tenon in the finished product, so I don't much care about blowing out the end grain. I also machine cut my tenon cheeks before tuning them with hand tools, so I don't have the parallel loss issues people have with hand cut cheeks. I trim my shoulders with a sharp chisel. It's the only way I know of to completely avoid blowing out the end grain, and it also lets me undercut the inside edges for a tighter fit in the visible part of the joint.

shoulder planes are nice, but to be honest, I don't get a lot of use out of them.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim I understand what your doing with the tenoned piece but I don't understand what your doing with a lap joint?
Bob

Nothing explains like a picture:

250029

The arrow points to the meeting spot without a shallow socket to hide the edge of the piece that butts up against the underside of this saw bench.

Making a shallow cutout hides any roughness of cut or slight misalignments.

jtk

[Bob Warfield]

Thanks Jim. Now I understand.
Bob

[Sean Hughto]

. If you need a router plane for tenon cheeks, I suspect you need to practice on your sawing skills, whether by hand or machine.
Stan

What is it with some people? There is no need for hobbiest woodworkers to wait until they are able to hit everything perfectly right off the saw before making great fitting joints. Part of the beauty of hand tools is how they give the user the ability to sneak up on perfect fits for each joint (e.g., fitting the reveal on door or a drawer, not to mention dovetails and m&ts). Stan, why do you feel the need to sneer at folks who bring tools to bear after the saw? The results are what count, not what tool you used to remove the waste wood.

[Stanley Covington]

What is it with some people? There is no need for hobbiest woodworkers to wait until they are able to hit everything perfectly right off the saw before making great fitting joints. Part of the beauty of hand tools is how they give the user the ability to sneak up on perfect fits for each joint (e.g., fitting the reveal on door or a drawer, not to mention dovetails and m&ts). Stan, why do you feel the need to sneer at folks who bring tools to bear after the saw? The results are what count, not what tool you used to remove the waste wood.

It is unfortunate that this form of brief written communication is so readily misunderstood. No insult or "snear" to less experienced woodworkers was intended in my remarks.

I have no objections to "folks who bring tools to bear after the saw." Did I not suggest three planes as potential solutions to Jeff's question? Is not each capable of removing precise amounts of material in order to achieve "perfect fits?" But a router plane suggests, at least to me, hogging a lot of wood to true up a twisted tenon. Do I misunderstand? And if the tenon is so far out of plane/parallel that it needs a router to true, then is it not going to take more time to correct than a tenon that required only a few swipes with a skewed-blade block plane to correct?

So please follow my logic, Sean. If a fellow's tenon right of the saw is so far out of tolerance he needs a router plane to true it, and he is spending additional time correcting it (remember that no one sees a tenon after it is glued/pinned so beauty should not be critical), then is it not logical for him to want to improve his skills to the point where he can cut his tenons so they don't require any touch-up after sawing? Is that not the ideal? Would that not give him more time to cut more tenons and build more furniture or more timber frames?

But I guarantee you, that if a man beginning in woodworking believes, based on comments on a forum like this, that skewed, grossly out-of-tolerance tenon cheeks are satisfactory, and that a router plane can make up for his errors with the saw, his skill with the saw will not progress.

I learned woodworking under harsher masters than most of the people on this forum, I suppose, but I am grateful to the old boys that turned a scornful eye at my first pitifully twisted tenons, and then later nodded with satisfaction, but without a word of praise, when I finally succeeded in copying their stance and handhold and arm movement and eyeball enough to consistently saw a tenon using both handsaw and a circular saw precisely enough that it did not require additional time or tools to bring back into tolerance. I would not thank them now if they had seen my lousy work, patted me on the head like a small boy, and simply suggested planes to use to fix my errors. If they had indulged me like a small boy then my skills would have much slower in progressing, I would have been a less profitable workman, and I would have had much less satisfaction in woodworking over the years.

I remember the evening when those old boys invited me to drop by a blacksmith's shop one evening after work. We sat on buckets and crates and cooked little fish on sticks around a fire in the smithy while the geezers drank beer from bottles and sake from little cracked teacups. After everyone had killed a few soldiers, they told scornful stories of how hopeless I was. But after a little more lubrication, one or two admitted that I was coming along just fine. I swelled with pride and resolved to work even harder to emulate those crusty old farts.

You wrote: "The results are what count, not what tool you used to remove the waste wood." I can only agree. And to what you wrote I add that greater satisfaction comes from developing the skills necessary to cut a tenon true the first time with just a saw than from having four of five planes available at hand to remove waste wood that should have been excised by a precise sawblade the first time.

It is fine to suggest ways to correct errors. It is fun to debate the best tool for correcting errors. But let us not suggest that correcting an error is equivalent to doing the work right the first time. Or should this forum be like a modern kindergarten school, where every student's ego is thought to be so fragile that, unless he receives a first place ribbon and a balloon for simply being in class, he will become an emotional cripple?

No offense was intended, Sean. I have two router planes and find them very useful, but have never used one for trimming a tenon. Did I misunderstand how everyone that suggested a router plane uses them?

Stan

[Sean Hughto]

Stan, in the old days I might have gone at this chapter and verse, but frankly I have no appetite for it anymore. Your new post makes quite plain that you consider those who might use a router unskilled and inefficient, based apparently upon your own suppositions having never tried the technique. Okay.

I write for those who like to make stuff. I try to provide practical advice based upon my actual experience with tools and using them in the shop. Any newbies reading along should know that when working by hand, it is not at all uncommon to err on the side of sawing tenons a touch fat - not grossly, just a couple sheets of paper kind of fat - and then shaving the tenon for a perfect fit to the mortise. I recently read an old Ernie Connover article from FWW on M&T basics where Ernie said exactly that. One can use most any blade to make your shavings - chisel, rabbet plane, shoulder plane, etc. When using a chisel, it can be a bit tricky to remove exactly the same about across the cheek (especially on large or wide tenons). A router plane makes it a no brainer to slice off the same amount from everywhere on the cheek, and to then duplicate that effort on the other side as well, to keep things centered.

Here isa thread with pictures I made a long time ago on Knots regarding making a frame and panel door (including M&Ts) that Derek Cohen was kind enough to host on his site. Anyone can see details of my own particular methods and their results there, if they'd like:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/furniture/Making%20a%20frame%20and%20panel%20door.html

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, in the old days I might have gone at this chapter and verse, but frankly I have no appetite for it anymore. Your new post makes quite plain that you consider those who might use a router unskilled and inefficient, based apparently upon your own suppositions having never tried the technique. Okay.


You have your own opinion based on your experience. I have mine. But personal insults like "what is it with some people?" and "why do you feel the need to sneer at folks?" contribute nothing.

Since you resisted a diatribe "chapter and verse" and devoted your last post mostly to justification of out-of-tolerance tenons, I suspect you have matured. Applause. Perhaps someday the urge to hurl insults will cease entirely.

Stan

[Sean Hughto]

Stan, I don't know how else to read "If you need a router plane for tenon cheeks, I suspect you need to practice on your sawing skills ..." than as a sneer. And you just perpetuate the sneer with "justification of out-of-tolerance tenons" and the like from your prior post. Luckily my ego can take it, so I guess I'm not a kindergartener.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, I don't know how else to read "If you need a router plane for tenon cheeks, I suspect you need to practice on your sawing skills ..." than as a sneer. And you just perpetuate the sneer with "justification of out-of-tolerance tenons" and the like from your prior post. Luckily my ego can take it, so I guess I'm not a kindergartener.

Congratulations. Give me an address and I will mail a blue ribbon and a balloon.

Stan

[Mark Dorman]

I wanted a shoulder plane until I read something Frank Klausz said about not using a shoulder plane. "I don't need them. I cut my tenons right the first time." Now am I there yet no; am I trying yes. Until I get there it's pare when necessary and occasionally router plane the cheeks. I guess my two cents worth is the router plane is versatile and gets my vote over a shoulder plane. I use a four in hand file on the cheeks sometimes but nothing feels better or is faster than having one work straight off the saw.

[Jack Curtis]

Whether or not one needs a rebate, router, and/or shoulder plane largely rests on whether one saws to the line or leaves waste. The router plane use seems way too slow, so I've never considered using one on a tenon. I always saw on the line, just to the outside so I have a minimum amount of trimming, which for the tenon cheeks I do with a LN large shoulder plane, nice mass, very nice plane; but most any rebate would handle a pass or two, especially if it's already on the bench.

For the real shoulder, I have a LN small 1/2" shoulder (old version, not currently in their catalog) and HNT Gordon 3/4"; but in fact, I seldom use them, preferring instead a wide chisel for narrow shoulders.

So I understand Stan's point and don't really disagree; but it's hard to be so hard on skills (not) held by others. There are so many ways to get this job done efficiently.

[Dhananjay Nayakankuppam]

Shoulder plane or marking knife and chisel for shoulders. A rabbet block plane works for cheeks as does a router plane. The router plane is probably better in some ways. A rabbet block plane is good when the cheek has been sawed straight but is just a tad too thick - if the cheek is out of square, a rabbet block will make a thinner, but still out of square tenon since it is very difficult to register the plane squarely against the small shoulder (in contrast to using the shoulder plane on the shoulder where it rests on the larger registration surface of a trued cheek). So the approach that makes sense to me is to first get your cheeks right (true and the right thickness) and this is achieved most easily with a router plane (or by clamping the tenon in a handscrew clamp and using the clamp surface as a registration surface for a broad chisel). Then use a shoulder plane to true the shoulder.

However keep in mind that the router plane needs to take very shallow paring cuts. A deeper cut is likely to result in levering out chips which can wreck the cheek. So your sawing should be good - these tools and techniques can help to make minor corrections. In general, I find that aiming for a good fit from the saw (for dovetails and mortise-tenon joints) results in better fit and more conservation of energy/concentration. Any adjustments should be very minor and usually done after a test fit reveals tightness. So, the other really important thing required here is a good feel for the wood that lets you saw while keeping just to this side of safety. I aim to get a joint that goes together from the saw and use these other techniques to ensure that gluing up does not require huge clamping pressure and mallets and hammering and stress. The safety margin on poplar feels very different from that on maple.

Cheers, DJ

[Charlie Stanford]

Like many, I like to tune up my mortise and tenon joints by hand. Sometimes I cut the joints by hand, sometimes I use power tools. Fine tuning cheeks for me has meant using a piece of wood with course sandpaper taped to it......basically I cut the tenons and then sand to fit. For tuning shoulders I usually scribe a line with a knife and then carefully pare with a chisel. It works but I want to use hand planes for these tasks now. The Feb issue of Finewoodworking actually has an article to this effect discussing the various planes for this task.

So here's my list of candidates:
shoulder plane
rabbet block
jack rabbit (this was missing from the FW article)

Let's talk about what works for you and why. I have never owned any of these planes but here's my thoughts: the shoulder plane seems like the logical best choice, rabbet block seems really handy but might not work so well on shoulders, and then there's the jack rabbit........could this be the most versatile, or is it too large for this type of work? Please feel free to comment on any others not on my list as well as the different sizes. One more fyi: I do own and use a stanley #78 but I fine it's adjustments a bit course for the work I'm trying to do here. Thanks and Happy New Year!

Scroll down to about the middle of the page and play the video on tenon cheeks:

http://furnituremakersapprentice.net/sharpening.html#sharpenplane

[Thomas love]

Thanks for the link Charles.

[Mark Dorman]

+1 on the link Charles. Thanks for sharing that. I was cutting some small tenons the other day and accidentally popped a cheek down to the line. I cut a small notch with my chisel to start my saw in; it helps me stay on the waste side of the line but right up to the line. So I had my shoulder cut done and was making the line side of my notch and the cheek popped of and scared the crap out of me. When I took a good look at it to see if it was okay; it was right down to my knife line all the way around. So when I was sawing the others I kept thinking how fast and clean that was and what if I tried it on purpose. Heck I made curved legs and chair slats that I kerfed and chiseled to quickly remove waste; so why not tenons?
The video reinforces what I was thinking.

[Charlie Stanford]

Thanks for the link Charles.

He has a halfway decent portfolio too:

http://www.charteris.net/

[Charlie Stanford]

+1 on the link Charles. Thanks for sharing that. I was cutting some small tenons the other day and accidentally popped a cheek down to the line. I cut a small notch with my chisel to start my saw in; it helps me stay on the waste side of the line but right up to the line. So I had my shoulder cut done and was making the line side of my notch and the cheek popped of and scared the crap out of me. When I took a good look at it to see if it was okay; it was right down to my knife line all the way around. So when I was sawing the others I kept thinking how fast and clean that was and what if I tried it on purpose. Heck I made curved legs and chair slats that I kerfed and chiseled to quickly remove waste; so why not tenons?
The video reinforces what I was thinking.

He really popped them off in a hurry and with some force.

[David Weaver]

He has a halfway decent portfolio too:

http://www.charteris.net/

Like that stuff!!

[Chris Griggs]

Though it did perhaps come across as harsh, I get Stan's point completely about needing to work on sawing.... the goal I believe should be to have joints fit off the saw. However, I disagree with the assumption that one would only use a router plane to correct something grossly out of whack. I believe Stan, that you are making an incorrect assumption here.

Rather I see it as a way to fit a tenon without risking throwing it out of whack, and also as a way to really dial in a joint that is maybe just a little out of whack - for instance where there might be some roughness where the two saw kerfs first meet in the tenon.

I also would say that even if someone is using a router plane to correct grossly out of whack tenons and does indeed need to greatly improve their sawing skills, that doesn't mean using a router plane to correct bad joints will stop them from improving. Whether or not they improve has to do with ones mindset not what tool you use to make corrections. If one approaches hand sawn joinery with the mindset that everything will be cut oversized and then dialed in they won't improve, whether they are using a rabbet plane or a router plane to do their fitting is irrelevant. If one has a mindset where the goal is always to fit a joint right off the saw, they will likely improve, regardless of what tool they use when that doesn't happen.

I would agree that when things are very very close to fitting a wide shoulder plane or rabbet block plane is probably quicker than a router plane, but I don't have either of those so I use a router plane, and while I have considered buying a rabbet block plane for quite some time for fitting tenons, I find that the router plane works so well, I just haven't bothered to spend the money. I also think for someone who has niether a wide rabbet plane or a router plane, the router plane is the tool to buy first.

[Charlie Stanford]

Though it did perhaps come across as harsh, I get Stan's point completely about needing to work on sawing.... the goal I believe should be to have joints fit off the saw. However, I disagree with the assumption that one would only use a router plane to correct something grossly out of whack. I believe Stan, that you are making an incorrect assumption here.

Rather I see it as a way to fit a tenon without risking throwing it out of whack, and also as a way to really dial in a joint that is maybe just a little out of whack - for instance where there might be some roughness where the two saw kerfs first meet in the tenon.

I also would say that even if someone is using a router plane to correct grossly out of whack tenons and does indeed need to greatly improve their sawing skills, that doesn't mean using a router plane to correct bad joints will stop them from improving. Whether or not they improve has to do with ones mindset not what tool you use to make corrections. If one approaches hand sawn joinery with the mindset that everything will be cut oversized and then dialed in they won't improve, whether they are using a rabbet plane or a router plane to do their fitting is irrelevant. If one has a mindset where the goal is always to fit a joint right off the saw, they will likely improve, regardless of what tool they use when that doesn't happen.

I would agree that when things are very very close to fitting a wide shoulder plane or rabbet block plane is probably quicker than a router plane, but I don't have either of those so I use a router plane, and while I have considered buying a rabbet block plane for quite some time for fitting tenons, I find that the router plane works so well, I just haven't bothered to spend the money. I also think for someone who has niether a wide rabbet plane or a router plane, the router plane is the tool to buy first.

The key to making tenons fit is gauging them vis-a-vis the mortise chisel so that they fit when the lightly gauged marks on the tenons ARE STILL VISIBLE. Don't put in ditches as gauge marks. Gauge accurately, but lightly. If you set the gauge against your mortise chisel in a way that makes the tenon fit only when the gauge lines are completely planed away then you've removed all signposts of accuracy that assure the tenon is coplanar with the faces of the workpiece. If you gauge in the correct manner then you can use whatever tool you care to use to remove excess tissue if the sawing out was not dead on. You know the tenon will fit when the gauge marks are still visible all round.

The goal is a fit right off the saw, of course, but the reality is that this doesn't always happen. A little funky grain can push the saw one way or another, just a whisp, enough to spoil dead accuracy off the saw. Obviously, if one errs one wants it to be outside the lines, not inside them.

In compliant grain the waste can be cleaved off with mallet and chisel. In this instance it pays to gauge a little more deeply.

[Chris Griggs]

The key to making tenons fit is gauging them vis-a-vis the mortise chisel so that they fit when the lightly gauged marks on the tenons ARE STILL VISIBLE. Don't put in ditches as gauge marks. Gauge accurately, but lightly. If you set the gauge against your mortise chisel in a way that makes the tenon fit only when the gauge lines are completely planed away then you've removed all signposts of accuracy that assure the tenon is coplanar with the faces of the workpiece. If you gauge in the correct manner then you can use whatever tool you care to use to remove excess tissue if the sawing out was not dead on. You know the tenon will fit when the gauge marks are still visible all round.


This is excellent information Charlie. The kinda of little detail that is frequently passed over. I always gauge so the the tenon fits when the lines are just barely gone. What happens is when I saw to the line (on the waste side of course) there is little to nothing left to guide if things are a little fat. Perhaps this is why I have such a strong preference for a router plane for final fitting. Thanks for the tip - I will put it to use.

[Stanley Covington]

I have surmised that I misunderstood how router planes used by some readers. But I still find it difficult to imagine that using such a rough tool for shaving a few thousandths from a tenon that was cut straight and true in the first place would be more precise than using a tool like LN’s skew block plane or rabbet block plane. Illogical. In any case, shaving tenons should be a rare thing, and truing twisted tenons very rare indeed if one is skilled with a handsaw. That is my opinion and I won’t back down.




To one degree or another we all inherit the traditions of our teachers. I was trained in the traditions of Japan, a tradition that is very strict about precision and productivity in woodworking. If you haven’t been to Japan and seen the work evident in the bare wood of it’s ancient temples, and spent time on a jobsite where such treasures are being restored, you probably won’t understand. But I recognize that there are other traditions. There was a time when many of the self-proclaimed “Masters” of woodworking in America taught in the pages of FW and in their VHS tapes that it was so difficult to cut precisely with a handsaw that one should cut back from the layout line of tenon cheeks and shoulders, and then pare to the layout line with a chisel. Sneak up on it, in other words. Frank Klause was not one of these, BTW. At first I was disgusted that professionals would teach such inefficient and amateurish techniques, but I later learned that they were taught, when they were young men, to cut tenons that way, and were simply promulgating those same traditions.


I propose that you would be better served by aspiring to a higher standard. In the case of mortise and joints, that means being able to handcut a tenon’s cheeks and shoulders so that it fits into it’s mortise straight and snuggly without any paring, shaving, trimming, truing or glue-ons. If you can’t do it now, it is no shame. If you accept this goal, however, and try to achieve it with every cut, before long you will develop the necessary skills. With that skill you will be quickly become able to cut nearly every variety of joint that can be made with a saw quickly, precisely and without even thinking hard. But if you call this goal unrealistic, or demeaning, or believe it sucks the joy from the world, your progression will end. With greater skill comes greater confidence, greater speed, greater productivity and greater satisfaction. Don’t make excuses just because you’re a newbie or an old dog with just a few tricks; simply set the goal for yourself and go after it.

Stan

[Kees Heiden]

Something else allthogether:

The shoulders. Lately I read a tip. Maybe not really for fine furniture, more for doors or windows. When you test assemble the frame and find the shoulderlines are not as nice as you like, you can cut with a saw through the gap, until you just hit the tenon inside. Do this on all four corners, front and back, and you will have made custom fitted shoulders. With a bit of care you won't bruise the styles too much, and a few swipes with a plane will cleanup the damage. The frame will end up a little narrower of course.

[Charlie Stanford]

Yep, as long as you leave a signpost it's your choice of tool to remove waste. Use whatever you like. I'm not personally a huge fan of a router plane because it can leave some scarring and burnishing on the face of workpiece which will need to be processed out. Not a huge deal but it is something to consider for others who are still considering a strategy.

[Charlie Stanford]

I have surmised that I misunderstood how router planes used by some readers. But I still find it difficult to imagine that using such a rough tool for shaving a few thousandths from a tenon that was cut straight and true in the first place would be more precise than using a tool like LN’s skew block plane or rabbet block plane. Illogical. In any case, shaving tenons should be a rare thing, and truing twisted tenons very rare indeed if one is skilled with a handsaw. That is my opinion and I won’t back down.




To one degree or another we all inherit the traditions of our teachers. I was trained in the traditions of Japan, a tradition that is very strict about precision and productivity in woodworking. If you haven’t been to Japan and seen the work evident in the bare wood of it’s ancient temples, and spent time on a jobsite where such treasures are being restored, you probably won’t understand. But I recognize that there are other traditions. There was a time when many of the self-proclaimed “Masters” of woodworking in America taught in the pages of FW and in their VHS tapes that it was so difficult to cut precisely with a handsaw that one should cut back from the layout line of tenon cheeks and shoulders, and then pare to the layout line with a chisel. Sneak up on it, in other words. Frank Klause was not one of these, BTW. At first I was disgusted that professionals would teach such inefficient and amateurish techniques, but I later learned that they were taught, when they were young men, to cut tenons that way, and were simply promulgating those same traditions.


I propose that you would be better served by aspiring to a higher standard. In the case of mortise and joints, that means being able to handcut a tenon’s cheeks and shoulders so that it fits into it’s mortise straight and snuggly without any paring, shaving, trimming, truing or glue-ons. If you can’t do it now, it is no shame. If you accept this goal, however, and try to achieve it with every cut, before long you will develop the necessary skills. With that skill you will be quickly become able to cut nearly every variety of joint that can be made with a saw quickly, precisely and without even thinking hard. But if you call this goal unrealistic, or demeaning, or believe it sucks the joy from the world, your progression will end. With greater skill comes greater confidence, greater speed, greater productivity and greater satisfaction. Don’t make excuses just because you’re a newbie or an old dog with just a few tricks; simply set the goal for yourself and go after it.

Stan

I think you may be slightly misinterpreting what you've read or heard about western traditions.

The western tradition (at least British, French, Irish, Scottish) is largely that joinery CROSSCUTS are cleaned back to a knifed line with a chisel or plane (an edged tool, not a saw, finishes joinery crosscuts) - hence Ian Kirby's admonition to cut a bit wide of a tenon SHOULDER LINE CUT and process back to the knifed line with a chisel. The theory, obviously, is that an edge tool leaves a better, crisper, and more accurate finish on endgrain cuts (crosscuts) than does a saw. Hard to argue with that. It's hard for me to see that cleaning a joinery crosscut with chisel or plane is somehow hacking it up (see links below).

Kirby, for one, absolutely promotes that tenon RIP CUTS be dead on and the aim is "a fit directly from the saw." This is practically verbatim from his article on the mortise and tenon joints in FW (black and white days).

I've never heard of one recognizable name in western woodworking who advocates anything but a fit straight from the saw on tenon rip cuts --certainly not Kirby, Klausz, Frid, or anybody else I can think of. Frid went to his grave with a strong dislike of backed saws. Klausz uses them. Whether he makes a tenon shoulder cut right on the line and calls it done, like he used to with his bowsaw, I don't know for sure.

In western cabinetmaking the saw can be very minimally used for tenons as is seen in the video about halfway down the following page. This may very well assault the eastern eye or eastern-trained eye but I rather like it myself:

http://www.furnituremakersapprentice.net/sharpening.html

The gentleman's portfolio:

http://www.charteris.net/portfolio.html

I'm thinking he has the mortise and tenon joint down pretty pat.

[Chris Griggs]

In any case, shaving tenons should be a rare thing, and truing twisted tenons very rare indeed if one is skilled with a handsaw. That is my opinion and I won’t back down....

....I propose that you would be better served by aspiring to a higher standard. In the case of mortise and joints, that means being able to handcut a tenon’s cheeks and shoulders so that it fits into it’s mortise straight and snuggly without any paring, shaving, trimming, truing or glue-ons. If you can’t do it now, it is no shame. If you accept this goal, however, and try to achieve it with every cut, before long you will develop the necessary skills. With that skill you will be quickly become able to cut nearly every variety of joint that can be made with a saw quickly, precisely and without even thinking hard. But if you call this goal unrealistic, or demeaning, or believe it sucks the joy from the world, your progression will end. With greater skill comes greater confidence, greater speed, greater productivity and greater satisfaction. Don’t make excuses just because you’re a newbie or an old dog with just a few tricks; simply set the goal for yourself and go after it.

Stan

Yes! Could not agree more. I'm not there yet with everything, and honestly probably don't get enough good time in the shop to get there all that quickly. That's just kinda the way it is as hobbiest.... sometimes one even goes long enough in between doing certain things, that you'll regress between projects. But it is always the goal to fit off the saw cut, from breaking down stock to cutting joinery. I am slowly spending less time correcting cuts and trimming to fit. You are correct, if one doesn't start taking the risk of trying to cut to fit and just relies and trimming everything to final dimensions they will never get there.

[Kees Heiden]

There is another way to cut shoulders. That is first estabishing a knifeline, reinforced to a slight wall with a chisel. And then cut with the saw to the line. A first class sawcut, Chris Schwarz calls it, and he got it from one of the British. Hayward? Well, whoever. This is how I go along these days, and it saves me the hassle of paring and shoulderplaning the shouldercut.

To be honest, I have not enough experience to decide which method is best. Overall I like to try to saw to the line on almost all sawcuts, except very long rip cuts.

[ian maybury]

As a learner of mixed hand tool and machine orientation i'm strictly neutral on this stuff. What is pretty clear though (Charles' video of the guy cleaning up a tenon using a chisel is a good example http://furnituremakersapprentice.net/sharpening.html#sharpenplane - the video that went around of a guy in a market in Morocco using his feet and a chisel with a bow lathe to effortlessly turn chess pieces comes to mind too) is that in many respects skill and technique trump choice of tool and method as the determinant of a good and cost + time effective outcome. Presuming of course that the chosen method is in the first place feasible.

It's very Zen. Given the chance (enough practice at a particular task) the body and deeper mind can together perfect all sorts of amazing skills. It's perhaps actually only when we think too much - as in get a bit too much intellectually and egotistically engaged in stuff like this - that it starts to get complicated and filled with rights and wrongs. There's what works and what doesn't, and decent technique helps a lot - but neither is a substitute for skill. Which reality ('less is often more. while more is often less') is in many ways what most of the 'great' woodworkers of our time have tended to subtly but clearly point to...

So there's of course a balance involved - making the correct choice of tool and technique of course makes a big difference to the inherent difficulty of the task. It's hard not to think though that 'the only way to do xyz is to buy an abc and do 123' mentality is to quite a degree (along with our own tendencies) a product of the habit the magazines have of positioning every new job as requiring a purchase. Can't imagine why that might be, why mostly they write infomercials, or how we end up with work shops clogged with stuff we rarely use.....

More to the point it would be nice if some purely skills based written pieces popped up now and then.

I wonder what's going on when we talk about 'traditional' methods, and seek to follow them. Traditional for me as a kid (and for the few that i knew in carpentry) was having three basic tools of moderate quality in very poor condition and trying to get the job done with them - no more i'm sure than was the case for most in days gone by....

ian

[Jason Coen]

There is another way to cut shoulders. That is first estabishing a knifeline, reinforced to a slight wall with a chisel. And then cut with the saw to the line. A first class sawcut, Chris Schwarz calls it, and he got it from one of the British. Hayward? Well, whoever. This is how I go along these days, and it saves me the hassle of paring and shoulderplaning the shouldercut.

To be honest, I have not enough experience to decide which method is best. Overall I like to try to saw to the line on almost all sawcuts, except very long rip cuts.

Hi Kees,

Agree completely. I think the classes came from Wearing, but I may be mistaken.

[Chris Griggs]

To be honest, I have not enough experience to decide which method is best. Overall I like to try to saw to the line on almost all sawcuts, except very long rip cuts.

At my current level I typically try to saw to the line. With backsaws on joinery I can do it most of the time. I'm less good with my larger handsaws. If there is a cut that I cannot risk miscutting, say by crosscutting out of plumb and having to square up it up and end up with a too short board, I will mark things a bit oversized, but still work to cut as perfectly to the line as possible, holding myself to the same standard of accuracy as if I was sawing to a final dimension. This lets me develop my sawing accuracy and confidence, but still allows for correction if my cut is a bit off. My goal is obviously to get to the place where the majority of clean up I do after sawing is just that, cleanup and not final dimensioning. I hear you in long rips Kees, mine are crap.

I've taken to using "first class" sawcuts in much of my joinery as well - leaves things with a nice crisp edge where it matters.

[Charlie Stanford]

There is another way to cut shoulders. That is first estabishing a knifeline, reinforced to a slight wall with a chisel. And then cut with the saw to the line. A first class sawcut, Chris Schwarz calls it, and he got it from one of the British. Hayward? Well, whoever. This is how I go along these days, and it saves me the hassle of paring and shoulderplaning the shouldercut.

To be honest, I have not enough experience to decide which method is best. Overall I like to try to saw to the line on almost all sawcuts, except very long rip cuts.

Robert Wearing.

The problem with the saw is that you can miss wide (still need a chisel) or you can miss lean (need to remodel the joint). A chisel locking into a knifed line is dead positive every time.

You can even miss with the saw if you chisel a little trench as is often recommended (and the procedure that is outlined by Wearing). If you cozy the saw up too snug to the knifed line and press against it during the cut you can erode the area under the line and undercut way more than planned. And he's advocating chisel work anyway - just before you bring the saw into play. The chisel cannot be eliminated from the equation.

Try it the Kirby way a time or two. Your shoulders are can't miss 100% of the time. That's what Dougal Charteris is doing in the video as well.

[Curt Putnam]

I accept and agree with perfection in sawing. One almost has to agree. I also agree that perfection may be a goal, and is for many of us. Until perfection is achieved we need a way to clean up the imperfections. Seems to me that is what the discussion started with or should be about.

[Jeff Bartley]

Boy I elicited some opinions on this one!! I do very much appreciate everyones input. Charlie--that video is really cool, I've used that technique in the past, particularly with timber frame work. I'm not sure I'd want to do that every time though, what with some grain not running exactly parallel to the tenon you'd really risk ruining the piece.
Stan---I applaud your skill if you can cut a perfect tenon direct from the saw.....I certainly aspire to that goal....but if you need to trim one which would you reach for: the skew (kiwa ganna) or the LN rabbet block? And if you're working direct from the saw, what type of saw do you prefer?
Sean--I liked your how-to on Dereks site! And Charlie, I saw your addition to that how-to as well....22 mins 18 sec? You must be an animal!
I love the fact that we can all have our little 'internet' woodworking community here but most of the time I wish everyone lived right the corner....it's so much easier to gain knowledge and skill (at least in ww'ing) by watching others and having someone evaluate your technique. And one certain fact is that written communication lacks the nuance of a face-to-face conversation and sometimes people come across as harsher than they really intend.
I was surprised to read that so many others trim shoulders the same way that do (with a knife line and sharp chisel). I guess I just assumed everyone with more skills than myself would use a shoulder plane!

[Jack Curtis]

The problem with the saw is that you can miss wide (still need a chisel) or you can miss lean (need to remodel the joint)....

Yeah, but if you cut the tenons first and make the mortise to fit, you eliminate a lot of this type of problem.

[Charlie Stanford]

I accept and agree with perfection in sawing. One almost has to agree. I also agree that perfection may be a goal, and is for many of us. Until perfection is achieved we need a way to clean up the imperfections. Seems to me that is what the discussion started with or should be about.

To a point. Perfection in marking out and chiseling for a fine fit is a more important skill. Folks don't tune fit with a saw in their hand. And if you're counting on sawing perfectly every time you are going to be one, frustrated puppy. If you have the chisel skills there is nothing you can't do.

[Charlie Stanford]

Maybe, is that how you approach the joint?

[Chris Vandiver]

Yeah, but if you cut the tenons first and make the mortise to fit, you eliminate a lot of this type of problem.

It is easier to adjust a tenon than a mortise.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

As others have said, I always aim to get the fit just right off the saw. I've gotten at the point where I'm there most of the time on smaller ones. Everything goes out the window if you hand me another saw, though. (I made an fool of myself at a LN handtool event looking like I had no idea how to saw when I tried out their tenon saw - I'm sure my second attempt would have been fine, but I felt dumb enough at that point not to try)

I've failed thin before, and been able to glue a shim of veneer in there. I've also just chopped off that tenon and made that part into another part, or tried again. (I usually cut my first tenon before cutting to length)

After finding out about drawboring, though, I'm convinced you could get embarrassingly sloppy and still have a functional joint if you drawbored it. Maybe that's not the case - I haven't tempted fate yet.

[ian maybury]

To become philosophical about it again. While having said before that skill often trumps choice of tool or technique, it's equally the case that we do create different realities depending on our choices. It may take a lot longer to learn, but against that sawing accurately to size or using a chisel as opposed to a complicated machine set up has advantages in terms of efficiency. Practice sawing roughly and creeping up on fits or whatever and the risk is that this is what you will always do.

We had huge problems here in ireland with low craft standards back in the now historical building boom that came before the bust. There's a whole generation of guys out there who learned during this period - for whom speed was the only measure that mattered. Trouble is their work was abysmal, and has created a huge legacy problem for home owners lumbered not only with debt and negative equity, but also with lousy housing requiring large amounts of money spent to rectify stuff.

Not only that, but many of these guys now find themselves unemployable. Not only are their skills poor, they have also discovered that throwing stuff into a row of houses for an unscrupulous developer is not the same thing as managing the portfolio of private clients that delivers the sort of business that's around these days.

Which brings to mind the interesting point. The psychology of learning is such that if we learn a skill badly it after even a few years becomes very hard to backtrack to improve the technique. On the other hand if you start off with the right technique (which may initially be slower) the speed normally comes with time....

ian

[Sean Hughto]

A few distinctions are likely in order, lest we all simply talk past each other.

1. Professional versus Amateur: While the need for speed and efficiency in the professional world is self-evident; speed is not required for an amateur to successfully make perfectly fitting tenons. Also, a professional will saw every single day many times, while and amateur may only saw a couple times a week. Building and keeping proficiency is therefore much more of a challenge for amateurs.


2. Process versus Result: While the results of some woodworking activities will only be achieved with deft and competent tool handling in the first instance (think carving, for example) and cannot be achieved by incremental fiddling, a straight, perfectly-fitting tenon is not such a result. One can make the same tenon perfectly off the saw or carved with a jack-knife and arrive at the same point as far as a perfect fit and solid joint. The only sacrifice in the slower methods is time.


3. Risk versus Reward: The hobbiest may well be willing to trade time for certainty of result. If an amateur is a good, but not perfect sawer, he may stray from the line only one in eight times. How much time (or wasted material) does it take to fix the overshoot? Is it less than the time it would take to run a chisel or plane across the cheeks of the other tenons? Is it less frustrating for the amateur to merely make minor fitting a part of his process or to shim up the occassional undersized tenon? The trade off is a bit like the consideration of a golfer faced with a short par 3 to an island green - should he shoot for the hole and risk the water or take one club extra, stay dry, and content himself with a good chance at a birdie and no worse than a par?


4. Joint versus Piece: If I make two identical table aprons - one I achieve tenons off the saw and the other I use a router plane or chisel to arrive at the same tenons (taking two minutes longer for each of the eight tenons) -- once assembled, would anyone be able to tell me which was which? Of course not. Would the joints be of equal strength? Yup. So I've added 15 minutes to the build time - or maybe I've saved time, because if two of my "off-the-saw" efforts missed the mark (or a mortise ended up a few thousandths wide) and had to fuss with veneer and shims for half an hour ....


5. Pride versus Satisfaction: Hitting a tenon right off the saw EVERY single time assumes perfect mortises, perfect marking out, and of course perfect saw control. No doubt, professionals might achieve this, and even the talented and dedicated amateur on occassion. It is rightfully a souce of pride. That said, I personally get more satisfaction out of stress free perfect results that take a slightly slower path. Moreover, the greatest satisfaction for me in building furniture is actually getting projects done. I fear telling beginners that it is somehow invalid to arrive at done in the "wrong way" (planed or chiseled rather than sawn) just keeps them practicing sawing instead of building pieces. Just make furniture however you can; it's all good.

[Charlie Stanford]

To become philosophical about it again. While having said before that skill often trumps choice of tool or technique, it's equally the case that we do create different realities depending on our choices. It may take a lot longer to learn, but against that sawing accurately to size or using a chisel as opposed to a complicated machine set up has advantages in terms of efficiency. Practice sawing roughly and creeping up on fits or whatever and the risk is that this is what you will always do.

We had huge problems here in ireland with low craft standards back in the now historical building boom that came before the bust. There's a whole generation of guys out there who learned during this period - for whom speed was the only measure that mattered. Trouble is their work was abysmal, and has created a huge legacy problem for home owners lumbered not only with debt and negative equity, but also with lousy housing requiring large amounts of money spent to rectify stuff.

Not only that, but many of these guys now find themselves unemployable. Not only are their skills poor, they have also discovered that throwing stuff into a row of houses for an unscrupulous developer is not the same thing as managing the portfolio of private clients that delivers the sort of business that's around these days.

Which brings to mind the interesting point. The psychology of learning is such that if we learn a skill badly it after even a few years becomes very hard to backtrack to improve the technique. On the other hand if you start off with the right technique (which may initially be slower) the speed normally comes with time....

ian

Do you have objections to tenons worked thusly (scroll down about halfway into the page and play the video):

http://www.furnituremakersapprentice.net/sharpening.html

And the portfolio of work here:

http://www.charteris.net/

Is there anything about any of this that seems less than professional and of top quality?

[Chris Griggs]

Sean. You have said perfectly what I find myself thinking so many times when the merit of certain techniques are debated. Very Very well said. While I would love to be able to nail everything of the saw, as an amateur hobbiest I'm just not going to get their that quickly. I choose to try to get there because I get satisfaction out of perfecting technique, but there is no NEED for me or anybody/everybody to get there. That's what makes this so satisfying as a hobby. I have the luxury of weighing risk, time, and result in whatever way I please.

[Mike Cogswell]

Can anyone post a video of a router plane being used to true a tenon cheek? Although I have both a large LV and a small LN, and use them often, it has never occurred to me to use them on a tenon. I usually make any small adjustments to the cheeks with a chisel or block plane and use a chisel or shoulder plane on the shoulders. When I use a router plane it is generally supported on both sides of the area being planed. How do you support it when planing a cheek?

I'm curious of the exact technique used. I'm quite an old dog, but not unwilling to learn a new trick.

Cheers

[Chris Griggs]

Can anyone post a video of a router plane being used to true a tenon cheek? Although I have both a large LV and a small LN, and use them often, it has never occurred to me to use them on a tenon. I usually make and small adjustments to the cheeks with a chisel or block plane and use a chisel or shoulder plane on the shoulders. When I use a router plane it is generally supported on both sides of the area being planed. How do you support it when planing a cheek?

I'm curious of the exact technique used. I'm quite an old dog, but not unwilling to learn a new trick.

Cheers

LN has this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buLJWnGMQTE&list=PL76ED2FC43576D6AF&index=24) with Deneb demoing how to do it. Although, unless I'm working a long tenon I don't usually bother to support the free floating side of the sole with a second board of the same thickness. Rather I just make sure to very firmly plant my weight on the part of the sole contacting the board just behind the tenon shoulder. The second board does make things easier to get accurate, but I'm to lazy to bother thicknessing an extra board - it would make more sense if I were doing my thickness with a power planer I guess.

[ian maybury]

Hi Charlie. I'd dearly love to have work to my name like Dougal Charteris - it was the video showing him chiselling tenons that got me thinking about how skill can trump choice of method at times. In that his use of a chisel is clearly a spectacularly fast but skill intensive way of finishing a tenon. Chris' video above shows a probably slower (but maybe not so much with enough practice) but less risky method with a router plane.

Much as Sean says should be the case though i wasn't judging any particular technique - more just trying to gain some perspective on some of the differences between the various approaches that seem to come up.

There's in the end a lot of ways to get from A to B - and we each make calls on what route suits/apeals to us. There isn't given the above and the very wide range of situations we woodworkers can find ourselves in necessarily any right and wrong either. Against that there are some techniques that are more effective (deliver the outcomes for less work) than others - he actually discusses this in his blog where he talks of apprenticeship being a system for passing on stuff like this that isn't easily put fully in words: http://furnituremakersapprentice.net/blog/

That's probably something that so many of us miss out on these days - working alone as most of us do we're largely self taught and don't have the same opportunity to learn and borrow proven techniques from others. Which is one reason why i get quite teed off at the mags for focusing more on selling ever more stuff - and in doing so increasing complexity - than on finding subtler and more creative ways to pass on the sort of hard to communicate core skills he points towards. Against that it was so common in the day for the apprenticeship system to end up passing on dogma rather than genuinely optimised methods - there's clearly a need in a results oriented (e.g. commercial) environment for a balance to be struck between openness to possibilities, and not re-inventing the wheel/not bogging ourselves down in complexity of methods.

Krenov and some of those lifetime guys seemed to feel that we need to take care to avoid getting sucked into a scene where we get lost in this complexity to the point where we lose sight of the role of skills.

Beyond that it's open to discussion. Just what are we trying to achieve (per Sean's - we're not in Kansas anymore in that so many are woodworking for enjoyment as opposed to a living now), and how is whatever 'that' is best achieved? Is effort/cost/time effective delivery of outcomes still the game that matters, or can we afford to indulge ourselves a little more? Could it be anyway that (rose tinted glasses aside) in the overall sense woodworking standards are as high as or higher than they have ever been?

One thing is clear - like much in modern life we're into a reality that changes much more rapidly and doesn't permit the same (often misplaced?) certainties as back in the day....

ian

[Mike Cogswell]

LN has this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buLJWnGMQTE&list=PL76ED2FC43576D6AF&index=24) with Deneb demoing how to do it. Although, unless I'm working a long tenon I don't usually bother to support the free floating side of the sole with a second board of the same thickness. Rather I just make sure to very firmly plant my weight on the part of the sole contacting the board just behind the tenon shoulder. The second board does make things easier to get accurate, but I'm too lazy to bother thicknessing an extra board - it would make more sense if I were doing my thickness with a power planer I guess.

Thanks Chris. So, he supports it on both sides, which is what I expected. Like you, I'm too lazy to thickness extra parts just to hold up half my router plane. My tenons tend to be long through tenons, which is why I hadn't considered using the router. I cut the shoulders using Waring's first class cuts, so the mating edge has a nice clean chisel visible fit and have just made any slight adjustments to the cheeks with a block plane. I would be very sad if I had to remove anywhere near as much material from the cheeks as was done in that video. It makes no sense to me to saw them that much oversize, and I do not pretend to be an expert sawyer by any stretch of the imagination. Waring's second class cuts generally yield a usable tenon.

[ian maybury]

Pardon me guys if i've been a bit vague. What I guess i've been playing around with is the thought (put more explicitly) that while we like to judge/pass comment on tools, methods and the like that it's possible (as Sean said) that we're talking past each other. As in applying differing criteria to reach conclusions. We're maybe each perceiving very different woodworking worlds.

What does 'good work' actually mean? Is it even work at all? Do we mean:

Working by the most cost and time efficient method of completing a woodworking task?
Working using those tools we happen to have or are familiar with?
Working to the highest possible standards of design, precision and/or standard of finish without regard for cost and time?
Working using the method that 'feels' best to us, that at some deep level feels like its what we are meant to do?
Working dogmatically with what we figure are methods that were used in years gone by?
Working without the use of modern machinery?
Working using only the very latest technologies?
Working to produce the blingiest possible result?
Working to maximise our personal skill set?
Working to appeal to the art house tendency?
Working to maximise our bragging rights?
Working to ??????

Guess i'm saying that there can be an awful lot of outcomes that we're seeking to achieve, and that most of us are running rather complicated and finely nuanced sets of balanced multiple beliefs - with the result that heaven knows what criteria we are applying in how we perceive a given topic.

Maybe it was all a lot easier back in the day when resources were very limited, and it was about making a living. You could hold all the high falluting views you liked, but in the end if you wanted yourself and your family to survive it seemed to be very much about following the money....

ian

[Jack Curtis]

It is easier to adjust a tenon than a mortise.

But there really shouldn't be all that much adjustment going on here. It's very easy to mark based on mortise chisel and saw to the marks. It's really easy to chop with that mortise chisel and make a mortise that doesn't need adjusting. I know this, and only ever got into trouble when trying to smooth mortise cheeks with a paring chisel. And I know that if a joint is too tight, I'd trim the tenon, not the mortise. If it's too loose, glue some wood to the tenon cheeks.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Chris. So, he supports it on both sides, which is what I expected. Like you, I'm too lazy to thickness extra parts just to hold up half my router plane. My tenons tend to be long through tenons, which is why I hadn't considered using the router. I cut the shoulders using Waring's first class cuts, so the mating edge has a nice clean chisel visible fit and have just made any slight adjustments to the cheeks with a block plane. I would be very sad if I had to remove anywhere near as much material from the cheeks as was done in that video. It makes no sense to me to saw them that much oversize, and I do not pretend to be an expert sawyer by any stretch of the imagination. Waring's second class cuts generally yield a usable tenon.

Yeah I wouldn't use this method on long tenons either. Fortunately, this is rarely and issue for me. I will say that when needed, instead of milling an extra piece you can just grap on of the the other pieces that will have a tenon cut on it (most the time there is more than one apron or stile). Of course, if your prepping by hand you'd still need to take a little extra time to make sure your pieces are all thickness the same, which really isn't necessary in a lot of handtool work. Sounds like a block rabbet plane or wide shoulder plane might be a better option for you. I have a router plane so thats what I use. It works well for what I do so I haven't bothered to pop for a wide rabbet plane. Who knows, if I had one perhaps I gravitate towards that instead. We may find out sooner than later, tax return season is coming up and a large shoulder plane is near the top of my wish list.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan---I applaud your skill if you can cut a perfect tenon direct from the saw.....I certainly aspire to that goal....but if you need to trim one which would you reach for: the skew (kiwa ganna) or the LN rabbet block? And if you're working direct from the saw, what type of saw do you prefer?

Jeff:

If I need to shave one, I use a kiwa ganna http://dougukan.jp/contents-en/modules/tinyd8/index.php?id=31. But they can be pain in the butt to set up and sharpen, so the LN skew rabbet is my next choice, followed closely by the LN rabbet block.

I have no problems with using a chisel, but in my opinion, a plane is easier to control, more precise, and quicker on big tenons, which are the ones that seem to invite the most shaving.


To answer your question about my choice of saws, I am a saw addict and have far too many. I need a 12-step program. I match my saw to the wood. For hardwoods, I like a Western tooth. For softwood, I like a Japanese tooth. Last summer I cut a ton of tenons in what seemed like a 40’ container of Keruing, an Indonesian wood sometimes called Apitong. Dense, hard, resinous, and full of nasty silica. I cut the big tenons with an old George Bishop backsaw (sash?) I filed to rip (and sharpened frequently). GB knew how to make a good saw. It is my best backsaw for big hardwood tenons. For even bigger tenons I use a Disston No.12 rip saw or even a Skillsaw with a super thin carbide-tipped blade. For smaller tenons in hardwood, I use an L-N tenon saw or an old Disston. For softwoods, I use a handmade kataba ripsaw with smallish teeth (graduated). It cuts beautifully. I also use a Zeton kaeba ripsaw with Teflon-coated blades.

For shoulders, the only type of saw worth considering is the dozuki. I understand that some Americans/Europeans use dozuki for cutting dovetails, etc., but that way lays madness. The dozuki is intended specifically for cutting shoulders, ergo the name. I have a beautiful handmade dozuki, which never touches anything but well-behaved softwood. It cuts fast and true as a fish through water, but the teeth are delicate. For most everything else, I use a Zeton kaeba dozuki.

There is a trick taught to me by an old professional saw sharpener 30 some odd years ago you might want to try if you have a strong stomach. Remove the sawblade and lay it on a very flat surface. Lay a flat hard Washita stone (this won’t work with waterstones) lengthwise on the blade with one edge of the stone resting on the teeth and other on the plate. Now, gently and without any downward pressure, pull the stone from point to handle. A single stroke only. Lightly now! Repeat on the opposite side. Then be sure to spray the teeth with WD-40, or wash it in some other solvent to remove the stone grit and metal fillings from the gullets. This is very important. I know, this sounds bizzare, even immoral, but it works. Removing that little bit of excess set will make the saw cut like a champ, even if it reduces the blade’s lifespan somewhat.

I can also share a few tricks for cutting tenon cheeks and shoulders quickly and precisely. Take them or leave them, but know that I did not invent them, I just “stole” them, as they say in Japan, from men that had been cutting M&T joints by hand for 50+ years when I met them, so you might find them useful. I know I did. Many of you will already know these tricks, so forgive me if I ramble a bit.

The first trick is obvious, but not everyone uses it. Use the same marking gauge and the same settings for laying out both the mortise and tenon (assuming the faces of both pieces are intended to be flush). Use a mortise gauge, or a pair of single gauges, with SHARP cutters. I use a Kinshiro twin bladed mortise gauge for tenons. Don’t cut any deeper than is necessary to make a clear line. The chisel cuts to the inside of the line. The saw to the outside. But remember, the “line” is the width of the gauge’s blade where it cut the wood, and so is very very thin. Thinner than your eye can see. With practice, you will develop an instinct for where to cut in relation to this line with chisel and saw to get a perfect fit without shaving tenon cheeks.

Another key is to use a good sharp marking knife to cut layout lines for shoulders. I cannot overstate the importance of this knife being rigid and sharper than any store-bought razorblade. It must also be flat on one side, not double beveled (spear point is OK, but not ideal since they tend to be less stable against the layout square). When you layout with this knife, the flat should face to your left with the tenon to the right. Your good saw will ride this line down into the wood, so it must be perfect. Remember, you cannot make a good saw do anything it doesn’t want to do, so give it a good line to follow. I don't mean deep as blue bayou, just straight, true and clean.

Another trick is one many already use, I am sure, but it bears repeating. Make a shoulder-sawing jig. This jig should be sized in proportion to the tenon shoulders you are cutting. I have a big one, a medium, and a small one. The medium-sized one is a stable board (I used hinoki, but most any stable, well-behaved wood will work) about 3/4” thick by 10” long by 3” wide. It has a slot in the center for 2 fingers to fit through. It has a lip along one edge that projects below the surface of the board about 3/8”. All six edges are straight and true and square. You use it like this: After cutting the layout lines for the shoulder, place the marking knife in the cut with the flat facing to the left, away from the tenon. Make a right angle between the knife’s flat and the face of the workpiece. Then place the jig on the top surface of the workpiece with the lip indexing along its length, and gently push it up against the flat of the marking knife. If your jig is straight and true and square, and you have positioned it properly, the jigs’ right end will form a plane oriented at a perfect 90 degrees to the length of the workpiece, and 90 degrees to the face, and centered perfectly over the center of the cut made by the marking knife. And all without even eyeballing the line. Very precise, very fast, almost foolproof.

Now, using your very sharp dozuki, place the blade gently against the face of jig, rest its teeth on the surface to be cut, and check to make sure it is perfectly aligned. If you are right handed, the jig will be held in position with your left hand, and the dozuki in your right. Now pull straight back to begin cutting. If your posture and body position are right, and your eyeball is located properly, and you truly pull straight back without a looping motion, the jig will guide the blade and the cut will be perfect. The jig also helps you detect any lateral swing in your saw stroke, a tendency you must overcome. With practice, this can be accomplished and repeated again and again very accurately and very quickly and without any Mickey Mouse paring. It is a skill, like riding a bicycle that, once learned by your body, is permanently retained. The next skill you must develop is to sense the depth of the saw's teeth in the cut so you don't not cut too deeply. That can be difficult when you are cutting tenons shoulders at high speed.

The key to precision M&T joints (or any joint for that matter) is not having expensive saws or special planes or expensive chisels. The key is to train yourself to make the “cutting machine” that is comprised of the saw/chisel/hammer, your body, your eyeball, and your brain. And the key to making the “cutting machine” is to believe it can be done (faith), and to work towards that goal with every stroke of your saw and wack of your hammer. Have more faith in your arm and eyeball than in your paring chisel. You can do it.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Reposting since it became lost somewhere.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Jeff Bartley http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2033311#post2033311)
Stan---I applaud your skill if you can cut a perfect tenon direct from the saw.....I certainly aspire to that goal....but if you need to trim one which would you reach for: the skew (kiwa ganna) or the LN rabbet block? And if you're working direct from the saw, what type of saw do you prefer?
Jeff:

If I need to shave a tenon cheek, I use a kiwa ganna http://dougukan.jp/contents-en/modul...ndex.php?id=31 (http://dougukan.jp/contents-en/modules/tinyd8/index.php?id=31). But they can be pain in the butt to set up and sharpen, so the LN skew rabbet is my next choice, followed closely by the LN rabbet block.

I have no problems with using a chisel, but in my opinion, a plane is easier to control, more precise, and quicker on big tenons, which are the ones that seem to invite the most shaving.


To answer your question about my choice of saws, I am a saw addict and have far too many. I need a 12-step program. I match my saw to the wood. For hardwoods, I like a Western tooth. For softwood, I like a Japanese tooth. Last summer I cut a ton of tenons in what seemed like a 40’ container of Keruing, an Indonesian wood sometimes called Apitong. Dense, hard, resinous, and full of nasty silica. I cut the big tenons with an old George Bishop backsaw (sash?) I filed to rip (and sharpened frequently). GB knew how to make a good saw. It is my best backsaw for big hardwood tenons. For even bigger tenons I use a Disston No.12 rip saw or even a Skillsaw with a super thin carbide-tipped blade. For smaller tenons in hardwood, I use an L-N tenon saw or an old Disston. For softwoods, I use a handmade kataba ripsaw with smallish teeth (graduated). It cuts beautifully. I also use a Zeton kaeba ripsaw with Teflon-coated blades.

For shoulders, the only type of saw worth considering is the dozuki. I understand that some Americans/Europeans use dozuki for cutting dovetails, etc., but that way lays madness. The dozuki is intended specifically for cutting shoulders, ergo the name. I have a beautiful handmade dozuki, which never touches anything but well-behaved softwood. It cuts fast and true as a fish through water, but the teeth are delicate. For most everything else, I use a Zeton kaeba dozuki.

There is a trick taught to me by an old professional saw sharpener 30 some odd years ago you might want to try if you have a strong stomach. Remove the sawblade and lay it on a very flat surface. Lay a flat hard Washita stone (this won’t work with waterstones) lengthwise on the blade with one edge of the stone resting on the teeth and other on the plate. Now, gently and without any downward pressure, pull the stone from point to handle. A single stroke only. Lightly now! Repeat on the opposite side. Then be sure to spray the teeth with WD-40, or wash it in some other solvent to remove the stone grit and metal fillings from the gullets. This is very important. I know, this sounds bizzare, even immoral, but it works. Removing that little bit of excess set will make the saw cut like a champ, even if it reduces the blade’s lifespan somewhat.

I can also share a few tricks for cutting tenon cheeks and shoulders quickly and precisely. Take them or leave them, but know that I did not invent them, I just “stole” them, as they say in Japan, from men that had been cutting M&T joints by hand for 50+ years when I met them, so you might find them useful. I know I did. Many of you will already know these tricks, so forgive me if I ramble a bit.

The first trick is obvious, but not everyone uses it. Use the same marking gauge and the same settings for laying out both the mortise and tenon (assuming the faces of both pieces are intended to be flush). Use a mortise gauge, or a pair of single gauges, with SHARP cutters. I use a Kinshiro twin bladed mortise gauge for tenons. Don’t cut any deeper than is necessary to make a clear line. The chisel cuts to the inside of the line. The saw to the outside. But remember, the “line” is the width of the gauge’s blade where it cut the wood, and so is very very thin. Thinner than your eye can see. With practice, you will develop an instinct for where to cut in relation to this line with chisel and saw to get a perfect fit without shaving tenon cheeks.

Another key is to use a good sharp marking knife to cut layout lines for shoulders. I cannot overstate the importance of this knife being rigid and sharper than any store-bought razorblade. It must also be flat on one side, not double beveled (spear point is OK, but not ideal since they tend to be less stable against the layout square). When you layout with this knife, the flat should face to your left with the tenon to the right. Your good saw will ride this line down into the wood, so it must be perfect. Remember, you cannot make a good saw do anything it doesn’t want to do, so give it a good line to follow. I don't mean deep as blue bayou, just straight, true and clean.

Another trick is one many already use, I am sure, but it bears repeating. Make a shoulder-sawing jig. This jig should be sized in proportion to the tenon shoulders you are cutting. I have a big one, a medium, and a small one. The medium-sized one is a stable board (I used hinoki, but most any stable, well-behaved wood will work) about 3/4” thick by 10” long by 3” wide. It has a slot in the center for 2 fingers to fit through. It has a lip along one edge that projects below the surface of the board about 3/8”. All six edges are straight and true and square. You use it like this: After cutting the layout lines for the shoulder, place the marking knife in the cut with the flat facing to the left, away from the tenon. Make a right angle between the knife’s flat and the face of the workpiece. Then place the jig on the top surface of the workpiece with the lip indexing along its length, and gently push it up against the flat of the marking knife. If your jig is straight and true and square, and you have positioned it properly, the jigs’ right end will form a plane oriented at a perfect 90 degrees to the length of the workpiece, and 90 degrees to the face, and centered perfectly over the center of the cut made by the marking knife. And all without even eyeballing the line. Very precise, very fast, almost foolproof.

Now, using your very sharp dozuki, place the blade gently against the face of jig, rest its teeth on the surface to be cut, and check to make sure it is perfectly aligned. If you are right handed, the jig will be held in position with your left hand, and the dozuki in your right. Now pull straight back to begin cutting. If your posture and body position are right, and your eyeball is located properly, and you truly pull straight back without a looping motion, the jig will guide the blade and the cut will be perfect. The jig also helps you detect any lateral swing in your saw stroke, a tendency you must overcome. With practice, this can be accomplished and repeated again and again very accurately and very quickly and without any Mickey Mouse paring. It is a skill, like riding a bicycle that, once learned by your body, is permanently retained. The next skill you must develop is to sense the depth of the saw's teeth in the cut so you don't cut too deeply. That can be difficult when you are cutting tenons shoulders at high speed.

The key to precision M&T joints (or any joint for that matter) is not having expensive saws or special planes or expensive chisels. The key is to train yourself to make the “cutting machine” that is comprised of the saw/chisel/hammer, your body, your eyeball, and your brain. And the key to making the “cutting machine” is to believe it can be done (faith), and to work towards that goal with every stroke of your saw and wack of your hammer. Have more faith in your arm and eyeball than in your paring chisel. You can do it.

Stan

[Mike Cogswell]

Yeah I wouldn't use this method on long tenons either. Fortunately, this is rarely and issue for me. I will say that when needed, instead of milling an extra piece you can just grap on of the the other pieces that will have a tenon cut on it (most the time there is more than one apron or stile). Of course, if your prepping by hand you'd still need to take a little extra time to make sure your pieces are all thickness the same, which really isn't necessary in a lot of handtool work. Sounds like a block rabbet plane or wide shoulder plane might be a better option for you. I have a router plane so thats what I use. It works well for what I do so I haven't bothered to pop for a wide rabbet plane. Who knows, if I had one perhaps I gravitate towards that instead. We may find out sooner than later, tax return season is coming up and a large shoulder plane is near the top of my wish list.

I don't have a wide rabbit plane either (which I imagine my wife will find strange if not completely unbelievable given the number of planes I do have). My only rabbit planes are wooden rebate planes. If I need to make a small adjustment to a tenon I generally just use a low-angle block plane or a wide chisel. Any cleaning of the corner between the shoulder and the cheek is done with either a shoulder plane or more likely a chisel.

I realized today that Waring's book suggests the router plane for trimming tenons, recommending attaching an offcut to the base. Not sure why that part of the book never quite sank in before.

[Jim Koepke]

Stanley,

Thanks for sharing your tried and proven methods.

For myself, every saw cut, every chisel movement from light paring to solid mortise whacking is considered to be "practice" with the intent of getting better.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley,

Thanks for sharing your tried and proven methods.

For myself, every saw cut, every chisel movement from light paring to solid mortise whacking is considered to be "practice" with the intent of getting better.

jtk

I tip my hat to you and wish you the the greatest joy of the journey.

Stan

[Charlie Stanford]

Pardon me guys if i've been a bit vague. What I guess i've been playing around with is the thought (put more explicitly) that while we like to judge/pass comment on tools, methods and the like that it's possible (as Sean said) that we're talking past each other. As in applying differing criteria to reach conclusions. We're maybe each perceiving very different woodworking worlds.

What does 'good work' actually mean? Is it even work at all? Do we mean:

Working by the most cost and time efficient method of completing a woodworking task?
Working using those tools we happen to have or are familiar with?
Working to the highest possible standards of design, precision and/or standard of finish without regard for cost and time?
Working using the method that 'feels' best to us, that at some deep level feels like its what we are meant to do?
Working dogmatically with what we figure are methods that were used in years gone by?
Working without the use of modern machinery?
Working using only the very latest technologies?
Working to produce the blingiest possible result?
Working to maximise our personal skill set?
Working to appeal to the art house tendency?
Working to maximise our bragging rights?
Working to ??????

Guess i'm saying that there can be an awful lot of outcomes that we're seeking to achieve, and that most of us are running rather complicated and finely nuanced sets of balanced multiple beliefs - with the result that heaven knows what criteria we are applying in how we perceive a given topic.

Maybe it was all a lot easier back in the day when resources were very limited, and it was about making a living. You could hold all the high falluting views you liked, but in the end if you wanted yourself and your family to survive it seemed to be very much about following the money....

ian

Good lord save us.

[Jeff Bartley]

Stan,
Thanks for the explanation and the tips. I do practice some of those already (like using the same marking gauge) but I think with hand cutting joints I haven't fully taken the plunge to commit to the line when sawing. I need to do some small, simple projects where I'm not on the clock, not risking a time-taxing mistake. I must admit the original question came from the perspective of using machines (table saw in this case) to mass-cut joints and then fine-tuning for final fit. These final fitting cuts are very small, likely one or two swipes with a hand plane.
What I'd really love to do sometime is to build the same project twice, something simple, once with my machine and hand fit technique and once cutting all the joints by hand; with the goal of determining which was faster. I think I know which I'd enjoy more but when you're trying to build something to sell....as they say: time is money. Of course in my work many times I do things the way I want or think should be done even if the customer doesn't care or doesn't want to pay for it.....I care about the 'means' not just the end.....even if it costs my time!
I really appreciate reading about how others work too. Thanks again to all for taking the time for this discussion!

[Salem Ganzhorn]

I preferred LV's over the LN's initial offering due to the LN's open throat, but now that LN has a closed throat model, it's a pick-em.

I personally much prefer an old Stanley to the LV. I have both but always reach for the old one. I hate the angle of the handles on the LV. When paring cheeks you want to apply pressure straight down and the angled handles on the LV work against you in this case.
Salem

[ian maybury]

C'mon Charley. ;) Tell us. What are you trying to achieve by woodworking???

Beliefs determine perceptions determine our take on reality....

ian

[Charlie Stanford]

C'mon Charley. ;) Tell us. What are you trying to achieve by woodworking???

Beliefs determine perceptions determine our take on reality....

ian

Produce as much existential angst as I possibly can.

[ian maybury]

:) Now we're sucking diesel.... (slang phrase from ireland)

ian

[Charlie Stanford]

:) Now we're sucking diesel.... (slang phrase from ireland)

ian

I suppose so, Ian.