Stones from Stu...

[Harold Burrell]

OK...I'm pretty excited. I just got my order for waterstones from Stu @ toolsfromjapan.com. Now, keep in mind, this little "review" of mine here will be from a veritable novice (at best) in the world of hand sharpening...but I wanted to share my initial impressions nonetheless.

First off, let me tell you about my sharpening journey thus far...

When it comes to sharpening my chisels and plane irons, I started out with cheap oilstones. I had no idea what I was doing. I thought it was messy and too much trouble and...well...gave up.

I then went to sandpaper on glass. I followed that up with compound on a cotton wheel on my bench grinder. I got "pretty good" results, but I wasn't too thrilled with how quickly I used up my sandpaper and the hassles it was to get the adhesive off the glass.

So...I picked up a WorkSharp. That was a tad faster and the results seemed even a little better, but...I still had the issue of sandpaper usage (and this time it was even more difficult to come by economical replacements). Besides that...how can I explain it...I felt less in control of the sharpening process with the WS. I wasn't getting the same "feel" that I was before. Kind of like the difference between handplaning and power sanding stock.

Not to bash the WS system, mind you...it works well...that was just my observations.

Then I got my hands on some used King waterstones. I again felt more "in control". And I liked the results. I did, however, quickly noticed what many had mentioned about the "softness" of the Kings. I also knew that they are pretty much "entry level". I did use them enough, however, to know that this "waterstone thing" was the way I wanted to go.

Anyway...guys here kept talking about this fella named Stu in Japan. That immediately caught my attention...mostly because I never met anyone from Japan named Stu before. ;)

I started reading what guys were saying about him. And I read his posts. To be honest, I initially thought him to be abrasive (OK...normally I hate puns, but you have to admit that was a good one). But I came to see him as very knowledgable...and extremely passionate.

Suffice to say, I liked him.

I read here recommendations for his "special set": http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667

Man, that would be a HUGE investment for me. I thought long and hard about it. I got to where I was checking it nearly everyday to see if the dollar/yen exchange rate was in my favor more than the previous day in hopes that it might push me over the edge one way or the other. To be honest, the shipping alone scared the crap out of me. Not just the cost, but the idea of having something THAT expensive travel THAT far. :eek:

I still remember the moment that I…no kidding…closed my eyes and clicked “finalize” on my order. And then I held my breath and waited…

They came yesterday. I forgot to mention that along with the “special set”, I also ordered the Sigma #400. I figured that if I was going to make the investment now that I might as well get what I wanted and save a little on shipping. Anyway…my initial impressions are these:

He sent them in 3 boxes. I was immediately impressed with how well he packaged everything. Some of the best packaging, in fact, that I have encountered in my mail orders. The boxes looked as though they had just come from across town, instead of across the world. And though the $50+ that I paid for shipping stung a bit, it was still a tad cheaper that it would have cost me to go get them (from Japan). And they wouldn’t have arrived in any better shape than they did.

The next thing that impressed me was what was in the boxes. Yes, the waterstones were cool. Quite a bit bigger that my Kings. Then there was the neat Atoma…and the nifty stone holder…but I was expecting all of that. What I didn’t expect was a couple of bottles of loose grit (to help flatten the Sigma 400) along with a little water bottle. I know that that in and of itself is no real big deal, but…to be honest…in today’s economy, you don’t very often see anybody just throw stuff in. Especially when that “insignificant” stuff probably meant packing a third box…and costing him more on shipping.

Suffice to say, I am very happy with my purchase. If and when I need anything else, I will definitely not hesitate to buy from Stu again. In fact…the next time…I will click “complete” with my eyes wide open. :)

[David Weaver]

To be honest, I initially thought him to be abrasive

Start talking about stones and he does get pretty excited. I have a king 8k on the way from stu, sort of an archival thing, first stone I ever used that really made everything sharp. The newer stones are definitely capable of going a step further.

The shipping separately is a product of the japanese postal system. Less than 2kg is pretty inexpensive for air service. More than that is very expensive. It probably would've cost more to put them all together than it did ship them separately.

Enjoy the set. They're very good.

[Rob Dickson]

Thanks for the quick review....I just shut my eyes and hit the "finalize" button on the "special" set today. This is my first sharpening set and, from my conversations with Stu, I am completely confident in the choice I made in ordering them. I can't wait until the day mine arrive!

[Jason Coen]

The Sigma 13k is sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

[Kees Heiden]

Yes, Stu is a great guy, and his stuff is marvelous. Just a pitty the Euro is down the drain, and our customs charge such a hefty import tax. I would really enjoy some more of the fabulous Koyamaichi chisels and another Sigma stone or two.

[Paul McGaha]

Stu is very knowledgeable about sharpening. I trust his judgement a great deal.

He's also very generous with his time. He's never failed to patiently answer a question, and give sound advice.

You're right about how well he packs things Harold. I commented on that to him one time and he said he has the packing down to an art. He does.

PHM

[Chris Griggs]

Yes! +1. Stu is a great guy to buy from. Very willing to share his time and answer all ones questions. His products are excellent. Its been a pleasure to get to know him a bit here on the SMC.

You will continue to be very happy with your stones. You're totally set!

[Adam Cruea]

The 1K-6K-13K is a *wonderful* set of stones. I am glad Stu steered me away from the Sigma Select II stones and to those, to be honest.

I did end up getting a Select II 240 from Stu, and yes, that puppy does chew up A2 like it's no one's business. My sharpening time has gone from about 30 minutes a chisel with my Nortons to around 10 with the Sigmas.

My dad bought the 400 for rough work, and I decided to get the Select II 240. While Stu was right that it's overkill for A2 steel, it is nowhere near a bad overkill IMHO. The Norton 220 I had previously dished and was a hunk of crud compared to the 240 Stu sent. As I said in a review on Tools from Japan, that thing is a monster.

Anyway, I digress. All awesome stones, and Stu is an A+ guy to deal with.

[Curt Putnam]

I told Stu that I was going to sharpen PM-V11, A2 and O1 as well as random vintage stuff. I also said that I would buy whatever he recommended. He said buy that "special" set - and I did. I am very​ happy. Stu's reputation deservedly grows - and I hope his business.

[Archie England]

+1. That's the set I got, as well. Since then I've added a couple more of his water stones. Stu is "da man!"

[Dale Cruea]

I also bought stones from Stu. Great stones and a great guy. I love his attitude. A lot like mine.
I have found that you should not use the Atoms 4000 on course stones. It wears it out faster. I used mine on a Shapton Pro 320.
Now the plate does not work as well. Use the grit or an old diamond stone to flatten your 400.
I use an old Diaflat 320. This stone is taking a toll on the plate. Nice cutting and HARD stone.
I leave a little slurry on my 400 and it cuts great on all steels I have. Great stone.

[Harold Burrell]

I also bought stones from Stu. Great stones and a great guy. I love his attitude. A lot like mine.
I have found that you should not use the Atoms 4000 on course stones. It wears it out faster. I used mine on a Shapton Pro 320.
Now the plate does not work as well. Use the grit or an old diamond stone to flatten your 400.
I use an old Diaflat 320. This stone is taking a toll on the plate. Nice cutting and HARD stone.
I leave a little slurry on my 400 and it cuts great on all steels I have. Great stone.

Yeah, I wasn't going to use the Atoma on the 400. I was going to relagate my DMT 325 to that task.

[Tony Shea]

While on the subject. What is the recommended method for flattening 400 grit stones and lower? I've used my DMT x-coarse on my Chosera 400 a few times and it has really mellowed it out. I actually like where the DMT is at for flattening my 1000-10000 grit stones right now but am afraid that it will be useless if I continue to use this on the 400. I am not about to delegate a diamond stone just for the 400 and watch it get worn out before long. And I really hate the sandpaper method. The loose grit is something I've never tried on stones. What is needed for this method and is it easy enough?

[Harold Burrell]

While on the subject. What is the recommended method for flattening 400 grit stones and lower? I've used my DMT x-coarse on my Chosera 400 a few times and it has really mellowed it out. I actually like where the DMT is at for flattening my 1000-10000 grit stones right now but am afraid that it will be useless if I continue to use this on the 400. I am not about to delegate a diamond stone just for the 400 and watch it get worn out before long. And I really hate the sandpaper method. The loose grit is something I've never tried on stones. What is needed for this method and is it easy enough?

I'll be interested in the answers to this too. I was actually planning to get a nice thick piece of glass for the grit. You could probably use granite as well.

Of course, there's always the cinder block...

[David Weaver]

While on the subject. What is the recommended method for flattening 400 grit stones and lower? I've used my DMT x-coarse on my Chosera 400 a few times and it has really mellowed it out. I actually like where the DMT is at for flattening my 1000-10000 grit stones right now but am afraid that it will be useless if I continue to use this on the 400. I am not about to delegate a diamond stone just for the 400 and watch it get worn out before long. And I really hate the sandpaper method. The loose grit is something I've never tried on stones. What is needed for this method and is it easy enough?

Loose grit on flat surface, concrete block, coarse wet and dry (like 60 grit), sidewalk, ..

[Paul Crowe]

That immediately caught my attention...mostly because I never met anyone from Japan named Stu before. ;)



Stu is an Aussie expat in Japan

[paul cottingham]

I'll be interested in the answers to this too. I was actually planning to get a nice thick piece of glass for the grit. You could probably use granite as well.

Of course, there's always the cinder block...
Grit on plate glass works great.

[Ryan Baker]

Once again you guys are a bad influence. I just ordered the "special set" for myself. :) SMC must really be great for Stu's business!

[Mike Tekin]

Harold thanks for the Pre-review- what are they like in use- speed, feel, etc compared to Norton and also for anyone else to chime in.... I have heard people say they are better than Bester also, but by what margin? Will I notice a huge difference over these two brands? That's what is holding me back...

And I use my stones on A2, O1, and soon to be the new Veritas steel

[Chris Griggs]

Sigmas and Besters both beat the crap out of Nortons (though nortons work fine). I like the bester 1200 equal to the Sigma 1000. Both are quite fast and have a nice smooth feel. Both are substantially faster, harder, and smoother acting than a norton 1k. The bester 1200 is harder than the sigma 1k. The Sigma 1200 is better than both, finer, faster, and IIRC about as hard as the bester 1200. I haven't used any besters other than the 1200. I suspect the difference between bester and sigmas is less dramatic then the difference between those and Nortons, but others will need to comment further.

[David Weaver]

I have the bester 1200 and the sigma 1200. So far, the bester seems a little faster to me (on what I've sharpened on both) but the sigma 1200 is significantly finer, and it's a harder feeling stone (hard is good). The sigma 1200 is fine enough that you could do most of your work with it (as in you could bare leather strop the edge and have a pretty good one - the bester might be too coarse for that). If money counts, I'd buy the bester 1200 (not the bester 1000, which is an entirely different less capable and softer stone), it's 90% of what the sigma 1200 is. If cost is no issue and you want the more advanced stone, the 1200 is going to please more.

It's not going to change your woodworking world vs. the nortons, but the coarse stones are harder and the fine stones are finer. Unless you are using something seriously loaded with alloying, you will never raise a wire edge that you can find with the 13k and you'll never have to strop after it to push the edge over the top.

The 13k is probably a bit slower than the norton 8k, but it's got particles that are 1/4th the size. Seems like a fair trade.

AT any rate, if you're already using something else to do the grinding and not milling away on your stones for a long time, you don't need to change stones unless you're chasing an edge or a feel. If you want to approximate what the edge would be like off of a sigma 13k, put good quality chromium oxide honing compound on a piece of flat MDF, add a little bit of oil to it and use it to touch up the edge off of the norton. That's about how sharp the sigma 13k will be, maybe not quite, but close to that. If you just want the sharpness every once in a while, the green stuff on MDF is probably a good option - you can go so anal retentive as to buy only the graded powder for about $12 , which has nothing in it but chromium oxide (the sticks of buffing compound often have aluminum oxide in larger particles mixed in, presume to make them cut faster).

If you find the edge lacking at all in a plane with the nortons, though, it's probably just because they didn't work to the edge. Someday, I'd love to annoy everyone with the subjective qualities of the edges from all of the different synthetic stones I've tried but people might read more into it than there is. Good use of any of the main line stones will make a very good edge. The finer stones just make it a little easier for new people to get there. If any main line stone seems too slow, it's because not enough work is being done on a grinder or coarse stone to minimize the metal that the finer stones are working.

[Mike Tekin]

Chris, David - thank you! that cleared things up

Harold, I'm sure others would want to get feedback on how these stones compare to your other methods you have tried. I think you and I got into hand tools right around the same time, so I always relate with your comments on things...thanks.

[Jason Coen]

. If you want to approximate what the edge would be like off of a sigma 13k, put good quality chromium oxide honing compound on a piece of flat MDF, add a little bit of oil to it and use it to touch up the edge off of the norton. That's about how sharp the sigma 13k will be, maybe not quite, but close to that. If you just want the sharpness every once in a while, the green stuff on MDF is probably a good option
.

Not that David's observation needs my affirmation, but that's exactly my take on things after using the Sigma 13k for the last week or so. I previously had been using the green stick on MDF after finishing on a Cho 10k. The chromium oxide on MDF offered a definite improvement to the edge, not drastic but enough to differentiate between stropped and not, and it was handy to leave out on the bench for quick touch-ups while working. The Sigma 13k is simply that good off the stone.

I've got to figure out where I go from here. I may stay with the MDF strop on the bench for touching up while working, or may leave the Sigma out and just add a couple drops of water when needed. In either case, I'm very impressed with the Sigma. I don't like the feel as well as the Cho 10k, but that's a subjective thing. The edge is so good and the price so much better that I'd say the Sigma is a better stone for someone wanting one finishing stone. I'm not getting rid of the Chosera, though - still love it. :)

[David Weaver]

I'm convinced naniwa asks a lot for the chosera (it's not joel at TFWW, it's naniwa) because they can get it, not necessarily because it's that expensive to make. But it is PIMP with a capital P. Very fast, moderately hard but smooth like a soft stone and pretty fine.

[Steve Friedman]

I've got to figure out where I go from here. I may stay with the MDF strop on the bench for touching up while working, or may leave the Sigma out and just add a couple drops of water when needed. In either case, I'm very impressed with the Sigma.
I haven't used the green stick since learning to use the 13000. Since I had never used waterstones before, it took a bit of practice. I leave the 13000 out and use it like a stop with a splash of water. It may be smoother (not sure if that's the right adjustive) with a short soak, but (IMHO) works fine with a splash. I prefer the stone to the green stick only because it gives me the confidence of knowing that I'm not going to round over the edge like I might with leather.

Just my experience.

Steve

[David Weaver]

I prefer the stone to the green stick only because it gives me the confidence of knowing that I'm not going to round over the edge like I might with leather.

Just my experience.

Steve

Definitely. Hard leather, like horse butt strips or using MDF instead of leather entirely will make for a better edge with the green stuff.

[Harold Burrell]

Harold, I'm sure others would want to get feedback on how these stones compare to your other methods you have tried. I think you and I got into hand tools right around the same time, so I always relate with your comments on things...thanks.

Wow...really??? Someone relates to my comments???

Give me a minute here...I'm getting a little misty... ;)

I will definitely give my input and observations after I've played with them for awhile. FWIW... :)

[Adam Cruea]

I haven't used the green stick since learning to use the 13000. Since I had never used waterstones before, it took a bit of practice. I leave the 13000 out and use it like a stop with a splash of water. It may be smoother (not sure if that's the right adjustive) with a short soak, but (IMHO) works fine with a splash. I prefer the stone to the green stick only because it gives me the confidence of knowing that I'm not going to round over the edge like I might with leather.

Just my experience.

Steve

I've barely used my strop since using the 13000, too. The finish it leaves behind seems just as good, if not maybe better than the honing compound.

[David Weaver]

I've barely used my strop since using the 13000, too. The finish it leaves behind seems just as good, if not maybe better than the honing compound.

It's less variable than the green stuff that LV, woodcraft, TFWW, rockler sell. That green stuff has aluminum oxide in it, and IIRC from the razor boards, it may have random al-ox particles in it up to about 3 or 6 microns (presume most are smaller by what it does to edge quality), which will make a whole bunch of little scratches as opposed to the dead even polish that the 13000 makes or that a pure grade of chromium oxide powder would make. If you have something hard (like MDF) that you strop the back of a chisel on, you can see all of the tiny scratches.

Of course, the polish is so bright and clear at that point that even dust or particles of almost any kind on the surface of a stone or strop will make it worse.

IN general, a strop is only going to help the edge uniformly if it's not dirty and doesn't have any metal particles in it. Strops don't stay that way for long in a shop.

We're way out in la la land at that level of sharpeness and polish, but if that's what someone desires, the 13k stone will get you there easily and the only stones it falls short of are $300 or more. It is more or less a good maintenance razor level if you have a linen to follow the stone.

But some of the razor fanatics will take things way beyond there, though I don't know what they're chasing. Like .01 micron graded powders - 1/73rd the size of the particles in the sp 13k.

At any rate, just an indication that there are a lot of levels of polish starting all the way back at something like a shapton 5k stone, which is a very coarse edge for a polished edge, and if your eyes tell you something (like you see the little lines from the sticks of compound), then there's something in it doing that. In the case of the LV green compound, though, the al-ox makes it more practical to use (and faster). The true graded razor compounds that only have 0.5 micron particles in (and that go finer even than a hard 0.5 micron stone like a shapton 30k) are pretty slow for woodworking.

Fiddling with pre chromium oxide pigment isn't expensive, but it is pigment and when it's not suspended in a wax stick, you find out fast that it doesn't come out of things that easily.

(long and short, I'd use the SP 13k, too, if you have it - it's easier).

[Jason Coen]

(long and short, I'd use the SP 13k, too, if you have it - it's easier).

After working more last night, I agree. The strop will travel with me, but it's been replaced on the bench.

And, I think you've said this multiple times, all this is just to satisfy an itch. The edge coming off the strop was more than fine for working. The 13k will only make things easier, faster, and more repeatable.

[george wilson]

Some of these "pigments" are very toxic. I have a vial of CrO,but I don't want it floating around!! Too particular about what I breathe now I'm old,and already have COPD.

[David Weaver]

Pure green chromium oxide is OK (Chromium oxide III), the MSDS lists it as more of an acute threat for an industrial worker, like someone who would ingest a pile of it by accident. Chromium oxide powder that is maroonish (which no normal individual should run into, anyway) is likely to be hexavalent chromium (chromium oxide IV) and should absolutely be avoided since it's highly carcinogenic.

Fortunatley, the green stuff cakes together pretty well, and can get from the bag or bottle to a strop without floating around much through the air. Once a tool goes over it, it's pretty much caked to a surface.

[george wilson]

I like it in cake form,not loose powder floating about. I think the older I get,the more cautious I need to be about breathing stuff. Back in the 50's and 60's,we knew little about hazards of breathing dust. Square head jointers,which will suck your whole arm in,were banned from industry,but ALLOWED in school shops!!! All manner of messed up stuff went on!!

[Jason Coen]

hexavalent chromium (chromium oxide IV) and should absolutely be avoided since it's highly carcinogenic.

If you want to read some real Internet purse swinging, go find some threads discussing electrolysis using a stainless steel anode.

[David Weaver]

haha...i looked it up and the first hit I got was the #talk sequence for wikipedia editors. Some stuff about hexavalent chromium followed by "please remove stanley meyer from this article".

It's incredible how many videos there are on youtube trying to push the free energy stuff...it's funny that those two got tied together in the same article.

[Harold Burrell]

The 13k will only make things easier, faster, and more repeatable.

That's what I'm talkin' about...:D