Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em.......

[Roger Chandler]

I want to thank Leo Van Der Loo .........he commented in my thread about my Serious gouge, on the blank I used and asked why I turn wood like this and also showed a pic of the piece of wood that Killed the lady turner.....not sure if he was referring to Mrs. Kelly, but it was a chunk of mesquite........everyone should look at that!

This brings up a topic of safety again, and you all will see my response to Leo's question on why I felt I could use this blank and how I went about turning it in a safe manor.

There should be some experienced folks here who could share a good bit on knowing when to abandon a blank, and perhaps have even a pic or two of a blank they feel should not be used and tell why.........this would go a long way in teaching newer turners how to avoid a catastrophic lathe accident.........and perhaps even save one of us more experienced turners because it would make us think twice.

Leo's comment did that for me........thank you Leo! I hope we have a lot of input on knowing when to fold 'em!

[Michael Stafford]

Looking at the picture of the blank in which Leo highlighted all the cracks and splits it appears that you applied CA glue to a large number of the cracks. I think it is time to throw out the wood when rounding it up reveals that many cracks needing CA glue. Almost certainly when chunks start flying off as in Picture #2 it is time to throw the wood out. When pieces of wood start coming off the blank it is time to look for sound wood. Not every piece of wood is salvageable. You may get away with it this time and you may get away with it the next time but turning unsound wood is flirting with disaster.

"Life is too short to turn crappy wood" one wise man once said.

[Dan Hintz]

Michael,

I thought that was water seeping from the cracks (Roger did say they were quite wet and heavy), not CA.




Roger,

If a piece of wood makes you feel uncomfortable for its size, you can always trim it to a smaller size and soldier on. With a shield on, I don't worry too much about a pen blank flying off and killing me ;)

[paul vechart]

As long as we are on the subject of safety...I have been watching a lot of u-tube turning videos and some turning DVD's. I have noticed many turners standing in the "line of fire"...some of these turners are even professional guys. I always try to stand to the side and out of the line of fire when roughing. It is hard to not stand in the line of fire when shear scraping the sides of a bowl...at least for me. I would think that the shear scrapping stage is much safer than the roughing stage.


Happy New Year and be safe...

Paul

[Greg Ketell]

This is a great thread with very appropriate timing because I have a blank I've been debating what to do with. But more on that later. First....

Michael,
With a shield on, I don't worry too much about a pen blank flying off and killing me ;)

Please be careful out there. My son was turning an inside out ornament made of 4 pen blanks and lost focus for 0.5 seconds when someone walked through the door.
249820
This was from one of the pieces that came off. Another piece flew past my ear, out of the garage, across a 2-lane driveway, and 1/2-way through a 6-foot wide hedge. If any of these had hit me in the chest I'd probably be dead. Just cuz they're little doesn't mean they aren't dangerous. Especially since we tend to turn smaller faster.

Back to my blank and question...
This is a Redwood Burl blank that came from the same coring as this piece so you can see why I don't want to waste it.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=234751&d=1339983824


But! This bugger has quite a crack. I've been trying to decide whether I just need to trash it or if I could cast some resin in there to add character and, more importantly, hold it together.
249821249822249823
(click for bigger version)

As you can see, that is a heck of a crack. 1) would resin help hold it together? 2) would the "straight-line fill" be worth the effort?
I'm leaning towards the trash pile but I'd love to hear all your discussion about it.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Roger - I just checked your thread and have to agree with Leo... you lucked out. Water coming out of a heavy green blank shows cracks throughout and the fact that a portion of it came off when first starting would have been enough for me to trash it. I am very leery of turning storm damaged wood because the wind can create cracks that jeopardize the normal strength of the wood. Problem is - you never know when/if it will break loose until you turn it.

We all take chances on the wood we turn because you really never know what is inside until you get there, but, seeing the water being forced out of multiple cracks would have been enough for me to toss the blank.

I am very happy that you managed to turn the wood without further incident! Happy New Year!!

[Roger Chandler]

Looking at the picture of the blank in which Leo highlighted all the cracks and splits it appears that you applied CA glue to a large number of the cracks. I think it is time to throw out the wood when rounding it up reveals that many cracks needing CA glue. Almost certainly when chunks start flying off as in Picture #2 it is time to throw the wood out. When pieces of wood start coming off the blank it is time to look for sound wood. Not every piece of wood is salvageable. You may get away with it this time and you may get away with it the next time but turning unsound wood is flirting with disaster.

"Life is too short to turn crappy wood" one wise man once said.

No CA glue in this at all...........When turning, the cracks were turned out......I saw they were shallow at the beginning, that is why I proceeded ......carefully! I agree Mike that when you have so much CA glue that is what is actually holding it together, then the wood is suspect.

Steve......since I was going to put the tenon on the other end from the piece that came off, and had a good hold with the faceplate and 1.5 inch screws, I felt I could turn away that bad part carefully..........that is what I did, but not everyone might have proceeded as carefully as I did..........this one could have been a problem for sure!

[Michael Mills]

I have a couple of pecan crotch pieced I have put off turning. My thoughts were to use a large faceplate to see if the wood would hold. Changed my mind on that. I will attach pics but it is too dark now. They are about 12"X3 with about 1" of what looks solid in the bottom.

Here are a couple of videos posted on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlhWF4M9CO4

Had to delete one of the videos/

[Michael Mills]

The other video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mFl3dxV6xM

[Jeffrey J Smith]

Assessing a blank in its raw state can be difficult. I'm a firm believer that roughing from outside of the line of fire is critical at this stage. That's the way I learned, and I've done it on every blank that I mount and turn. It also allows a full assessment of the wood. Every now and again a blank just gets turned to shavings for practice or thrown into the firewood pile.

But if a piece has exceptional grain/figure and it worth the effort, after the outside is roughed and ready for finish turning, placing support rings to keep it all together while hollowing and finishing can take some of the danger out of the equation. Terry Scott has an article in the recent Woodturning magazine that describes his process for supporting dubious pieces while turning.

Leo had shown a support ring on the rim of a piece of his in a separate thread, and Greg's piece in this thread is a good candidate for support rings, too. Even if you fill the void with epoxy there's bound to be some faulting that extends from the ends of the void that would allow this piece to crack nearly in half. A void that big screams for a couple of bowties to help secure it. I'd still use a couple of support rings just to hold the pieces together in case it did fail.

It only costs a piece of scrap plywood and a little hot glue...cheap insurance.

[Roger Chandler]

Thanks for posting these, Micheal!

[Bernie Weishapl]

Roger no matter if the wood is free or I bought it if it has cracks it goes to the firewood pile. Not worth get my block knocked off because I think the wood is pretty. My neighbor broke his nose, lost a tooth and cut his lip while wearing safety glasses and a face mask from wood that had several hairline cracks.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger no matter if the wood is free or I bought it if it has cracks it goes to the firewood pile. Not worth get my block knocked off because I think the wood is pretty. My neighbor broke his nose, lost a tooth and cut his lip while wearing safety glasses and a face mask from wood that had several hairline cracks.

Bernie..........thank you! I totally agree that nothing is worth getting your noggin' clobbered! :eek: That being a given, experience and due diligence can and should always play a role in our turning!

[Dennis Ford]

Greg;
That should be very pretty wood, I would be tempted to save it by inlaying a butterfly key across the opening. I do not believe that resin would add much strength. If you turn this; do it slowly and stand clear.

[David E Keller]

Greg;
That should be very pretty wood, I would be tempted to save it by inlaying a butterfly key across the opening. I do not believe that resin would add much strength. If you turn this; do it slowly and stand clear.

Yep, that was my first thought too.

[Curt Fuller]

As someone that enjoys turning wood that has natural "defects", I have to say that the one thing that scares me most is cracks that appear to go all the way across the wood even if they don't appear to go all the way through. In the picture that Leo put the arrows on pointing out the cracks I worry most about the cracks that are on the outside (where the bark used to be) and run all the way across the wood. When I used to split wood to burn I looked for those because I knew it wouldn't take much of a hit with the maul to break it in half there. The same principle applies when it's spinning on the lathe, it's not going to take much to split the rest of the way through. But in my experience, the wood that has caused my most scary moments was wood that I didn't even suspect to have a problem. I have a 3/4" thick particle board shelf above my lathe that has a chunk out of it like a bear bit it. It's a reminder of a piece of elm crotch I was turning into a shallow bowl. It came apart revealing a bark inclusion that was inside the wood that I didn't see at all in the blank. But I still could have prevented it if I would have stopped every few minutes to see how things were progressing. On this piece I remember I was thinking how cool it was that I was hogging out yard long curlies and roughing that bowl like a wild man. You just shouldn't do that. Turning can be inherently dangerous even when all the precautions are taken. But many close calls have made me a believer in the slower and more cautious approach. Even with wood that looks solid as a rock.

[Steve Campbell]

Rodger; Thanks for this thread. I have first hand knowlege of how quik this can happen. I was going to post this last spring but never got around to it.
This is a chunk of box elder crouch. I did see a void on one side but didn't think it went all the way through. Well as you can see it did. Now the point I want to make here is, Where is the "OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE"? When this chunk came apart I was turning slow and I was off to the side. What happened was it came apart and It didn't come straight off the lathe. If you look at the crack you can see that it is not straight across. When it came apart it came out on an angle, and you can guess where I was standing. The chunk hit me right in the middle of my face mask. It bounced of the mask and hit me in the chest hard enough it left quit a knot.
I do want to thank all of you guys. I was wearing my face mask and standing where I thought I was out of danger. I was turning pretty slow so it could have been a lot worse.
Tahnks again for the reminder....
Steve249966249967

[Keith Christopher]

I had this happen to me with some curly maple glue up I was turning, I touched my scraper to the edge to even it up a bit and a catch on the figure and WHAM exploded ! Worst part was I had already sanded it and was touching up the rim edge a little.....

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?40206-Just-a-little-tweek-here-and&highlight=

[Rich Aldrich]

The things I watch for are wind shake (I have found two so far) and spiral cracks. I have found two trees with this really cool crack that spirals up the tree. Some of the less obvious defects is why I actually use the guard on the lathe when I rough out or have a need to stand in the line of fire. It might not be the best protection, but it does more when it is in position on the lathe than lying on the floor in some obsure corner. I also use the guard when I am making the a bowl round again after drying. I lift it out of the way for the finish cuts sanding.