Need shaper purchase advice please

[Dan Chouinard]

Ready to pull the trigger and buy my 1st shaper. Will be used primarily to make cabinet doors. Have been making them for three years on a router table. Would like to have the precision of a shaper with powerfeed. The powermatic pm2700 is on sale now and i could use the write-off. Will I regret not getting the 5hp or is the 3hp sufficient for making doors? What operations require 5hp power that the 3hp would struggle with? Powerfeed recommendations?
All advice greatly appreciated and happy new year to all.

[J.R. Rutter]

5 HP is best if you want to raise hardwood panels in one pass. If you are not focused on fast production, then 3 HP is fine for doing smaller cuts, including making 2 passes on door panels. Any 1 HP feeder would be appropriate for the PM2700. The mounting base on the 1 HP is pretty standard across various brands and manufacturers.

[Chris Rosenberger]

I used a 3hp shaper a lot of years to make raised panels. But I always had to keep the cutters sharp & feed by hand. I now have a 5hp Powermatic 27S shaper & feeder for raised panels.
I believe there is a small price difference between the 3hp & 5hp 2700s. If you get the 3hp now, it will cost a lot more later to upgrade to the 5hp.
In my opinion, go with the 5hp.

[David Kumm]

Dan, where are you at? There have been several PM and other shapers on Woodweb lately. Dave

[Dan Chouinard]

Seacoast NH

[Larry Prem]

I have a 3HP model. If you want to make raised panels, do yourself a favor and get a 5HP model.
My machine gets the job done, but I am always unhappy when I use it. That's not what a hobby should be about.

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with the panel raising comments where carbide is going to be used.But with good high speed steel knives I think the smaller machine is fine. The steel is sharper and leaves a better surface. With a small raise (7/8 to 1 inch) I typically do no sanding ,with a larger raise sand end grain only ,using fine grit. Carbide is harder to spin. Tangtung is good,but I
use carbide only for mdf.

[Mike Heidrick]

Have you considered a used Euro shaper?

On feeders many like Steff but I own a few comatic feeder and they work great. A 1hp is a serious feeder.

[Peter Quinn]

Maybe I missed the "write off" window? Just to add consensus I'd get the 5 hp unless you have a severe lack of electrical service, there is no down side to having the head room that I can think of. I've raised plenty of panels on a 3hp shaper in one pass, it works without issue, wouldn't want to do it in large batches, it's definetly at the upper end of the motors capacity.. I never understood why they even offer the PM. 2700 in a 3 HP format. The rest of the machine is clearly built to a 5hp level. Resale might be harder on a 3hp too.

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks for the feedback guys. The window did close on me at midnight. Dragged my feet on this one too long. The need for a write-off was not great enough to rush this purchase. Moving a machine into my shop midwinter is less than ideal. I would think the powermatic shapers go on sale more than once a year. As suggested perhaps a used one will come up nearby in the near future. Will look for 5hp as suggested.
Mike,
What advantage does a euro shaper provide that the powermatic does not?

[Stephen Cherry]

What advantage does a euro shaper provide that the powermatic does not?

Great build quality. Plus, the scmi shapers are pretty much the standard.

For doors, I would look at the videos on weaver site. I can't say anything about the machines themselves, but the setups are well thought out.

Personally, I would be looking for at least two machines. One for coping, and another for cutting the pattern side, using a feeder. This second machine could be quickly switched over for raised panels. The cope machine could be almost anything, I have an old delta hd shaper that does not even break a sweat. If I were buying again though, I would be looking at something with parts availability.

[Mel Fulks]

I do not consider SCMI to be high grade .About ten years ago we had a hard time getting some parts,even though we provided all required numbers for a shaper.Turned out they changed some parts and did not have good records.Anybody
remember the Rambler American? It was a car with the same problem.The shaper spindle was so poorly machined that you could feel the variation in diameter which in one spot was so tight that some tooling was difficult to put on. They can be a "good deal" ,but it is important to understand their place in the market.

[Mike Heidrick]

Mass of trunion, thickness of table, motor mounts, bearing size, spindle mount mass, capacity under table, pretty much then entire build is MUCH nicer. Its not an apples to apples money comparison typically but the used machine money may be close enough to the new price money of the PM. Again you need to try and see some in person - or just buy what you want as it is your shop :) Happy new year everyone.

[David Kumm]

I agree that in a perfect world the two shaper idea is most efficient. Set up time is the bottleneck in the shaper business. As far as quality goes, there isn't much higher in the market anymore than SCMI. Martin, Maybe Format but a close call. There were some really stout USA shapers in the old days but they were set up and leave and not very flexible for changeovers compared to the newer ones. The Griggio units rebadged as martin are not higher end, nor are or were SAC, SICAR,CASOLIN, or CASADEI. The old Panhans, Kolle, Bauerle could be considered higher but not available here other than a few used. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

I sure would not toss out a Casadei, SAC, or Casolin because I could not get an SCMI LOL. I have a special place in my heart for a T130! The pneumatic lock spindles and the power throat closing of the Martins - WOW!

ANY of these machines listed are no where in the same league of a PM2700 though which was my only point in asking if he had checked out the Euro shapers. A "crappy" euro shaper form any brand is still mostly amazing if they are serviceable.

[Mel Fulks]

I don't see any disadvantage to the beefy old shapers. We made fences for routine repeat stuff.Had modern feeders.Had some really nice Acme thread spring hold downs,for which we made and KEPT different shaped contact blocks,in a box.Ive
seen a couple that had extra long spindles for stair rail work. We did NOT have shapers with broken lights hanging out and
broken cable operated spindle pins that require crawling inside the machine to operate. Few shops today will ever see the complex shaper work that used to be produced in several shops in any city.

[David Kumm]

Mel, I'm an old machine guy so you are preaching to the choir. I usually saw them in rows where each was used for limited set ups. Build quality was not an issue. They tended to need special shop made fences, and were limited one or two speeds. Not sure they are the best choice for a one machine shop that switches over a lot. If the Op was closer to WI I'd try to sell him my Felder F7. I think it is the best all round door machine for the money made. Not close to my T130 in build though. They are all behind Martin. They can be funky to buy used if you don't have a lot of machine experience with their lubrication system. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Once you run a Euro shaper you will never look at a smaller Powermatic the same way;) Depending on what your needs are even the older American industrial shapers will run circles around the newer Powermatics and HD Delta's. For flexibility though I like the Euro shapers and they are pretty easy to find for reasonable money. The questions are how much machine you need, and what's your capability as far as powering it goes? If you've been content doing doors on a router table, (guessing small quantities), and have only single phase power, a new Powermatic may serve you very well. It also comes down to individual use and experience, like Stephen I also had a Delta HD....I hated it from day one. Always felt like it was very light duty and didn't trust it's accuracy at all. But I also know there are a lot of guys out there happy with them so.....

As far as power....more is better:D You can do a lot with a 3hp motor, you can do even more with a 5hp assuming the rest of the machine is built for it;) As Mel said HSS when sharp cuts nicely and requires a bit less power...however it doesn't stay sharp long if your doing mostly hardwoods. If you do mdf panels you'll have to use carbide cutters though as HSS won't get you far:( So again depends on what your going to do with the machine....but 5 hp would allow more flexibility down the road!

good luck,
JeffD

[Dan Chouinard]

Since euro machines have been brought into the conversation.... should i be considering a hammer saw/shaper combination for a 21' x 27' one man cabinet shop? I do not have any exposure to euro table saws. What are the pros and cons of using one in a cabinet shop? There is room for one ifmy router table/ shaper (not purchased yet) were not there.

[David Kumm]

I'm a big fan of saw-shapers but not as much if the only saw or only shaper. Hammer makes great machines but it isn't as robust a shaper as Felder or MM. Might be close to the PM but I can't speak to that with any accuracy. I'm not sure I'd buy a new S-S unless really sure the changeover wouldn't bother you. Once you set the fence and feeder on the shaper you don't want to remove and saw another piece. You can get used to doing things in the right order but separates are the first choice if you have the room. If not the combination machines are the way to go. Used Saw shapers are a deal compared to new. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Are you building professionally....(IOW trying to make money?), or is this for hobby use? If your trying to make a living I would steer clear of combo machines, time spent changing over from one machine to another is time wasted IMHO. Much better off having separates, and ideally....multiples:D If this is for hobby use then I think there are some really nice combo machines out there which would allow you to make a single purchase and get some nice equipment.

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

You really want to give the workflow a lot of consideration before buying a combo machine like the saw/shaper. I considered one, I've gone back and forth for just the reasons mentioned above. Its not that a cabinet door set up is particularly difficult, especially if you mill stock to consistent thicknesses and close tolerances each time and use set up blocks. And you are very organized. But having one critical machine out of reach because you don't want to break another down? Not my favorite thing, especially if I have several things going at once that I am juggling. I'd contact Felder and ask for their video. THey have a long and very informative video of a cabinet maker using a full combo to make a walnut desk, he walks through all the machines to show how they work. Its a sales video, but you get to watch numerous machine changeovers. If you buy the nearly $30K machine featured in the video with the digital power lift everything and the programable height memory, then changing from saw to shaper is easy. If you get manual height gauges, then setting heights is slightly more challenging but repeatable. With a traditional shaper and set up blocks, its coarse adjustment, fine adjustment, hunt, peck, test piece.....worst part is moving the feeder out of the way on the combo, removing the fence, cutting some parts on the saw, setting back up if you weren't finished. I usually make a few extra door parts on a whole kitchen to accommodate the vagaries of machining wooden products, but have still been caught short occasionally. Having to break down my shaper to get to my cross cut saw? Ouch. But that might just be worth the occasional inconvenience to have the slider for squaring panels and cutting sheet stock. Its a decision thats pretty particular to the individual. Certainly not out of the question in a one man shop when space is factored in.

I wound up getting sick beyond words of my 3HP shaper early last year. Not a bad little machine, fine for cabinet doors, but I got a job making a pile of small moldings that needed a series of milling operations, it was in vertical grain fir, yada yada, the little shaper was not producing the results I needed, a larger garniga insert head I own was perfect, but I had to do all the steps on my other shaper (5HP minimax, euro shaper? Its made in europe. Not built like a t-130, but a whole lot more machine than a PM27. May qualify as a euro shaper?) Done. Just done with that. Thanks to a tip from Jeff Duncan I found a small 7HP production shaper, a somewhat obscure and older Italian brand, I think it qualifies as a "Euro shaper"? It shapes, it was made in europe, the business end resembles a tank's wheel hub.:D Works for my needs. They are out there.

The moral of my story, go euro if possible. I was saving for a PM2700 when the minimax fell into my lap for cheap, I was watching but not really looking. Glad the way things worked out, I now have 12HP worth of shapers and two feeders for just a bit more than the purchase price of the PM2700, sans feeder, and neither machine needed anything. i bought them both from one man shops where the primary was retiring. One guy just can't wear out a serious shaper in one life time IME. It takes several lifetimes, or a team of disrespectful monkeys beating them 6 days a week for decades to accomplish that. And often they can still recover from that too.

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks guys for the thoughtful and detailed replies. I had just composed a one myself but it got lost in quick reply/auto save cyberspace. Here are the bullet points;

1) Yes i earn a living making kitchen cabinets.
2) felder video is on its way.
3) I need a better understanding of euro sliders. Am i correct in assuming that in a cabinet shop the slider is mostly used for straight line ripping of solid stock and for sizing panels and a second traditional table saw is used for ripping face frame and door parts?

dan

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks guys for the thoughtful and detailed replies. I had just composed a one myself but it got lost in quick reply/auto save cyberspace. Here are the bullet points;

1) Yes i earn a living making kitchen cabinets.
2) felder video is on its way.
3) I need a better understanding of euro sliders. Am i correct in assuming that in a cabinet shop the slider is mostly used for straight line ripping of solid stock and for sizing panels and a second traditional table saw is used for ripping face frame and door parts?

dan

[Peter Quinn]

I need a better understanding of euro sliders. Am i correct in assuming that in a cabinet shop the slider is mostly used for straight line ripping of solid stock and for sizing panels and a second traditional table saw is used for ripping face frame and door parts?

dan


Depends on the shop. Where I work the sliders are used mostly for sizing sheet goods and for cross cutting stock to exact length. They are also put to use doing long miters, occasional complex joinery too with specialized jigs or fixtures. The 14" blade gives a lot of capacity. I can count on one hand how many times in a decade I've seen the slider used for straight lining stock, but we have some really long jointers and a dedicated straight line rip saw with a 3" capacity. In a smaller shop it might do more straight line work. I've also used it to trim inset doors to fit, to trim counter tops to length, full sized doors, etc. The rip fence gets used more as a cut off stop than as a rip fence. In fact I've never seen anyone at work rip on the slider using the fence. We have a bunch of traditional cabinet saws that are frankly much easier to use for that when necessary. So yes, a traditional saw seems to exist in almost every pro shop I've seen, but in a single man shop, you could certainly get along without it. I've seen the guys in the next condo using a slider to rip off the fence like a cabinet saw, and it looks awkward to say the least. Like a cross between yoga and shuffle board. They tell me you get used to it? The slider is a pretty versatile machine, it can be a very safe machine if used carefully, there are lots of tasks to which it can be put with imagination.

[Stephen Cherry]

I've been working on setting up for cabinets also, so I've been asking some of the same questions.

For doors, I would skip the saw shaper combo. And a big slider is physically huge. I've got one, and it can dice up plywood sheets in no time flat, all with your hands far away from the blade. But for me the advantage of a saw shaper is larger tenoning operations using the slide. For door parts, it seems to me to be way too big and heavy of a slide. I've been working on setting up a small delta shaper for tenoning:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?192685-Coping-on-a-tight-budget-%28shaper-stuff%29

This setup was super cheap (the shaper was cheaper than the yellow freeborn door set) and works surprisingly well. It sets up easily, and cuts pretty fast, and a real commercial cope sled would be faster.

Then another larger shaper to raise panels and do the pattern cut. Most people like to use an outboard fence for the pattern cut, and I do not know how you do this with a saw shaper. The idea is to have a fence spaced away from the cutter so that it sets the rail or stile width as well as cut the pattern, so you need space in front of the cutter. (One way to set the fence is to place a bearing of the minor diameter on the spindle, place a ripped board of the desired width against the bearing and outfeed fence, then place a fence against the board and clamp it down)

The problem of ripping long stock on the slider with a feeder is that the fence on the slide gets in the way if your stock is longer than the slide.

[Mike Heidrick]

A buddy has a setup of Weaver shapers for cabinet door production. Very solid machines, baldor motors and specific steel fences to knock out door production quick. Not as versatile as a euro slider shaper but hard to beat for speed and machine dedication.