Clear Vertical Grain Fir Cabinet Mismatched Trim

[Jack Pinkham]

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This is a photo of the kitchen island our contractor is finishing. I've objected to the mismatched
wood. The panels and the corner moldings are supposed to be CVG fir. His response is "that's wood". Would you accept this?

Thanks!

[Sam Murdoch]

"Would you accept this?"

If the panel is plywood then my answer is yes - unless you have very carefully specified otherwise. Nearly impossible to blend solid wood with a veneered plywood. On the other hand if both are of solid wood a better job could have been done of it. Keep in mind though that the edge grain that would be showing on that face of the trim is different than the flat grain of the panel. The face grain of the trim will likely be to the front. If your primary faces are good and you only have issues with this end(?) panel I would go easy on being critical. Again, this all depends on the details of your contract. Unless everything was specified to be color consistent all around CVG you are asking for more than you should expect. Were you expecting some stain matching or a clear coat throughout? Did you agree to pay for that level of wood selection? There will always be variation. I object more to the filled nail holes than to the mismatched color. To be fair you need to show us more of what you find objectionable.

[Jamie Buxton]

You say "panels and the corner moldings are supposed to be CVG fir" as though you think one or the other is not. However, both the parts in that photo are indeed vertical grain fir.

[Jack Pinkham]

"Would you accept this?"

If the panel is plywood then my answer is yes - unless you have very carefully specified otherwise. Nearly impossible to blend solid wood with a veneered plywood. On the other hand if both are of solid wood a better job could have been done of it. Keep in mind though that the edge grain that would be showing on that face of the trim is different than the flat grain of the panel. The face grain of the trim will likely be to the front. If your primary faces are good and you only have issues with this end(?) panel I would go easy on being critical. Again, this all depends on the details of your contract. Unless everything was specified to be color consistent all around CVG you are asking for more than you should expect. Were you expecting some stain matching or a clear coat throughout? Did you agree to pay for that level of wood selection? There will always be variation. I object more to the filled nail holes than to the mismatched color. To be fair you need to show us more of what you find objectionable.

The panels are plywood and the trim is solid. The contract is basic. The contractor had us choose the finish. We chose clear. It wasn't mentioned that the CVG plywood had a different
color than the solid- more yellow tones, than red. We expected naively, perhaps, that all the wood would have a consistent color.

Some of our dissatisfaction is with the trim moldings themselves. They seem like an afterthought. They are only on the back of the island. Our expectations were high because of all the boasting of the contractor as to his expertise. He claims to have taught cabinetmaking to the
workers of a local high end remodeler. We began doubting him when he installed our corner cabinets with no clearances for door swings. He also installed crown molding without scribing it-
just bending it to follow the dips in the ceiling. He assured us that we were the first to complain.

So trust is an issue, as is our poor contractual judgement. He does have the gift of gab and we bought it all.

[Matthew Bradburn]

You'll find that the fir will redden over time with UV exposure, and hopefully your plywood will gradually come to match the solid stock -- at least better than it currently does. You do have a grain mismatch as well as a color mismatch, and of course the grain mismatch is permanent.

I'm currently building cabinets for my own kitchen in clear-finished CVG fir, and I have the same color matching problem. I don't know of a good solution to that -- it's hard enough to find boards with grain to match the plywood that I haven't been able to try to match the color.

Those nail holes are pretty sad...

[Jim Riseborough]

What brand are they, perhaps the mfr can help. Otherwise, sounds like a bad contractor

[Phil Thien]

I predict the plywood panels will darken with time. Hopefully the finish that was used doesn't have a UV blocker!

[Jack Pinkham]

I predict the plywood panels will darken with time. Hopefully the finish that was used doesn't have a UV blocker!

He said that the finish does have a UV blocker, but that it wasn't really that effective.

[Jack Pinkham]

The contractor is quite irritated at us after I sent him a list of corrections that should be done.
He started out by asking if the rest of our house was perfect, implying that we should be happy with what we get.
Anyway, one of the items on my list was that the one frameless 42" tall wall cabinet that he has a door on (after 90 days for a 13x15 kitchen) has about a 5/16" reveal at the top of the cabinet and an 1/8" reveal near the bottom. I'm referring to the distance between the side edge of the door and the side edge of the cabinet. I mentioned that perhaps he might just need to adjust the hinges. However, I wonder if he cut the door
incorrectly, since the door bottom is now level with the cabinet bottom.249516
BTW, the ceiling trim is solid and it seems to match the plywood better than the pieces he put on the corners of the island.

So am I being picky asking that the door not have a tapering reveal? I have a premonition that all the wall cabinets are going to have uneven door reveals.

[glenn bradley]

Your contractor's reply is short sighted as far as any hope for repeat business goes. He should have said something like, "plywood (particularly pre-finished ply) and hardwood rarely match, to achieve a blend I would have to dye all the material blah, blah, extra cost, blah, blah . . .". Much easier to hear than "tough beans".

[Peter Quinn]

This is a photo of the kitchen island our contractor is finishing. I've objected to the mismatched
wood. The panels and the corner moldings are supposed to be CVG fir. His response is "that's wood". Would you accept this?

Thanks!


Yes. I would accept this. Unless these were custom cabinets with finished end panels, that is what it is. Plywood rarely matches solid stock perfectly, or even very well, in any species. Cherry, mahogany, walnut, QSWO are just a few I've used where the sheet stock is significantly different in color, sheen, tone, and grain. They choose the finest trees for veneer, steam the dickens out of them so they are dull and flat, sometimes washed out looking, glue them down then machine sand them hard. The solids are probably fresh select & better, planed through an S4S machine, sanded just enough to prepare for finish. So the two things come out significantly different. The solution would be built into the design (raised applied end panels from the same stock as the doors/face frames), and if these are basic factory cabs, would likely be an expensive upgrade. Stock shops don't often do custom well and they tend to price it prohibitively for that reason. Even in a custom shop you are going to pay for what you spec, and slapping a piece of plywood on the end of two back to back cabs to create an island is a lot less work than the alternative, so cheaper.

I agree that if there is some decent sun in this room the colors will naturally approach each other over a year or two. A decent finisher could probably mask off the end panels and spray a few coats of a toner to darken/redden the ends to mach the FF material, but this would certainly be outside the scope of most installers contracts and I would not expect that sort of work be included.

[Sam Murdoch]

Jack, this thread makes me cringe. Sadly, it sounds like you hired the wrong guy. But now what? I vote that you pick your battles. The finish is a done deal. The reveals at the doors is another issue. No one should need to accept such an inconsistency. Even an 1/8" is huge in my book but it doesn't sound like this guy will be willing or able to make the proper correction, which might be after all, to build a new door. I'm afraid you will likely find lots of other issues if you start looking - today or after 3 months of use. Your options as to how to proceed with asking for corrections will be limited to the terms of your contract and this guys need for a recommendation from you. Does he have a business profile on Facebook, Angies List, or Linkedin? Threatening to give negative reviews or faint praise can be a powerful motivator - just be careful of having a mad uncaged grizzly builder in your kitchen.

[Alan Bienlein]

!/8" reveal is standard. Anything larger then you have grounds to complain.

If the cabinets are euro and he just screwed them to the wall with out proper shimming to make them level and plum your reveals WILL be all over the place.

I have seen where the door or drawer fronts were flush with the bottoms of the cabinets but the reveals ran off up the sides due to improper install ie not plumb and level.

As to the color mismatch. Unless you specifically said you wanted it all to match and of course there will be a nice price tag on that then it is what it is. No cabinet shops that I'm aware of will color match unless it's paid for.

Now if you had gone with a stain then they could tone it and that's what we do. We will actually line the cabinets how they go before we load them up and the finisher would come over with his touch up gun and correct any variations that stood out.

[Richard Coers]

Here is a place where a good kitchen designer would have saved you some headache. When a customer accepts the responsibility of being the designer, they accept ALL RESPONSIBILITY. Inexperience on your part does not lay the blame on the contractor. There is no way he can explain every possible thought you may have in the future about your choices. A designer would have talked to you about color, and hopefully had the experience of color variations. Do all the boards in your hardwood floor match? Of course not. The contractor is right, this is wood. If you demand exact color match across the entire line of cabinets, special considerations and cost would have been incurred. I'm guessing you would not have liked to pay the costs involved. Also, I don't know any contractors that are custom high end cabinet makers. He may have never had anyone complain about exact color match that some customers will demand. The door alignment problem looks to be a simple fix to me. But, as these issues escalate, simple may be a relative term. Too bad the end of the project has gone so badly.

[J.R. Rutter]

Not to pick on the OP, but this is why I chose to shift my business from retail to wholesale. In a few years, there will be a evening of color and development of a patina that will make a much more uniform whole. But when it is time to write that last check, expectations and emotions are both running high on the part of the customer, while the contractor is hoping to see enough profit to make it all worthwhile.

Wood is such a variable "product" that there will always be inconsistency, especially on day one. After year one, they will be much less obvious. I recently built a kitchen's worth of CVG Fir doors. Inevitably, the plywood was tighter grain and lighter color than the rails and stiles. For twice the price, I might have been willing to order 200% more material, sort for color and grain, and return the overage. But even then, it would be difficult to guarantee "perfection."

For color/grain mismatch, I might try to meet in the middle by doing new parts at cost. On the door size/reveal issue, I personally would just make a new one to get that last payment in hand...

[glenn bradley]

He also installed crown molding without scribing it- just bending it to follow the dips in the ceiling.

Yikes. At this point I would cut your losses, accept what you got and learn from the experience. If he was boasting that he is a super-pro, I too would expect super-pro work. Unfortunately, being a professional cabinet maker doesn't make you a good one. I know a couple who are quite good and one who is average. The average guy is always talking about how great his work is. The two guys who do really beautiful work let the work speak for them. Sorry about your experience.

[Jack Pinkham]

These are custom cabinets which the contractor built.

[Jack Pinkham]

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This may be some of the reason why the door reveals taper. The side of the adjacent cabinet, to which the cabinet in question is attached, is out of square by about 7/32" in 24".

[Joe Calhoon]

The color match is acceptable, as JR said within a year it will be the same. VG fir is used a lot in Colorado. There is a grade called 85/15 that will usually have a high ring count similar to the veneer panel. This is more expensive and not always that tight of grain. Some architects will specify ring count per inch on VG fir projects. For example 20 to 25 rings per inch. This gets very expensive and most lumber suppliers will not do it anymore.

[Jim Riseborough]

Is having a contractor build cabinets like a cabinetmaker do framing? seems odd the contractor would build them, and not have you buy some for him to install. Perhaps I am missing something. A good contractor would sub it out I guess.

[Jack Pinkham]

The contractor's name includes a phrase similar to "and Precision Woodworking". He is listed on Angies List as a cabinetmaker.

[Jim Riseborough]

Ah, ok. Well hopefully you get it sorted out, I would not settle for what I have seen. Certainly no precision there.

[Jack Pinkham]

Unfortunately he has the last payment in hand. Very foolish, I know.

[Andrew Joiner]

Jack, Did Angie's List give him a good rating?

[Matthew Hills]

The color variation doesn't bother me too much. I get that with some closet built-ins where I used birch plywood with solid wood edging. I liked the contrast in that case.
Might depend on how the kitchen looks as a whole.

Out of square is less satisfactory. (you did check that your square is square, right?)

I'm not great at working with contractors/tradesmen myself. Makes me really appreciate those who do good work.

Matt

[glenn bradley]

The side of the adjacent cabinet, to which the cabinet in question is attached, is out of square by about 7/32" in 24".

Well, a guy who would force molding to follow a curve as opposed to scribing it is the same guy who would force a (hopefully) square carcass as opposed to shimming it out square so that things worked correctly. This is why my thoughts are to get the guy out of your house and then address the issues with someone who does decent work. Trying to get someone who would perform the level of work this guy did for you and call it "and Precision Woodworking" to fix these things is not going to work out. He is most likely not able to do the corrections even if he were able to see them as a problem. If I see nothing wrong with something, it would be very difficult for me to "fix" it.


Jack, Did Angie's List give him a good rating?

Angie's List was a great concept but, now has gone the way of the BBB. Its like reading a review in Wood or Fine Woodworking; lots of info but, take it with a grain of salt when the service or product being reviewed also pays the bills. JMHO, I've been wrong before.

[Jack Pinkham]

Yes, but he didn't have that many reviews.

[Jack Pinkham]

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Here's how he built the island. I think that he lost concentration and built it as a base cabinet. After he had it onsite he added the rear panel and trim.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I agree with above that the wood should definitely change color over time so I wouldn't stress over the color difference. Even if he diluted a stain to get the colors to match right now, it might not match in the long run. I sort of like the slight color difference because it adds some contrast to the cabinet and it reveals information about the construction. Also, maybe you could perceive that the veneer is radial sawn and the trim is plain sawn which will definitely have a different grain look.

I can see burn marks on the carcass so you might think he used a cabinet saw to make the cabinets and a kreg jig for the pocket screws (assumptions). Maybe that's an excuse for not having everything machined perfectly because the cabinets were not CNC cut to high tolerances.

I'm a real sucker for focusing on all the nuances of something I pay a lot of money for. One example is when I bought a new car I was stressing over the tiny paint chip, tiny ding, slight rattling noise in the dash at certain highway speeds. But after a while I just drove the car and all of that anxiety just fades away. (especially now after 8 years of driving that car...)

If I can't turn a shoulder to something and it's bothersome all the time, then I would just fight the good fight to have it corrected as brilliantly as possible. If I lose, I might have to pay somebody that knows what they're doing to fix it. :( Ultimately you are paying a pretty penny for a functional AND cosmetic product, though imagine if there was a reverse angies list and a contractor could review this thread before he decides to bid on a kitchen. I imagine this thread would jack up the prices of bids. So this extra work that has to be done was maybe not a part of the original bid, thus paying somebody else to fix it might cost close to a single bid that had your correct scope of work.

Perhaps an overly detailed page of what is included and what is excluded in a contract that both parties sign and no assumptions is what's required.

I hope everything works out in your favor and you ultimately become happy with your kitchen.

[keith micinski]

I might get in trouble for this but I don't think scribing the crown is a very good solution. Losing the edge of the profile on the crown to scribe it seems unacceptable to me. If the walls and ceiling are that uneven that a little bit of movement in the crown is unacceptable to conform, then the problem is with the walls and the ceiling, not the moulding, and should be addressed that way. There is nothing wrong with wanting things that you undoubtedly paid good money for to be really nice but sometimes we get lost in the reality that really nice doesn't have to be "Perfect" and sometimes small compromises have to be made to the over all project. That box being that out of square, if it isn't your square and you should check just to make sure so you don't look like an ass, ask me how I know, is a real concern because that is an area that should have been able to be perfect or close to it. I have no problem with the color or the grain I hate to say it but I agree with his comment "that's wood" if you want perfectly matched pieces then you should use plastic. Even spraying pieces with toner to get an even color match, while it will work, will also take a "real" piece of wood and make it look like the laminates and plastics that everyone pays big bucks to avoid. I am biased on the color though because I admittedly even hate staining wood and hiding the natural uniqueness in every piece to try to create something that is uniform and fake looking SO my opinion on the color should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Jack Pinkham]

When I wrote "crown molding", I should have explained that we asked for a simple 3/4" x 4 molding, sometimes called "Shaker molding". There's no profile. The ceiling should have been flat, since he hired a subcontractor to rip out the old and install new. Typically, though, he never showed up to inspect the subcontractor's work. Where the soffits were removed the subcontractor installed 1/2" sheetrock. The walls below the soffits had 3/4" thick sheet rock. A competent contractor would have required furring so that old and new sheetrock were in the same plane. He would have also required that the ceiling joists be furred out so that the new ceiling was level.
Of course none of that happened.

[Mark Wooden]

I agree with those who basically said "color is color". It is something that can be wildly subjective, and it will change with time.

As to the shoddy craftsmanship of the cabinets- that much out of square is absolutely unacceptable, and the back panel treatment with the nailed on fir strips does indeed look like an afterthought. Nailing wood together to form a box does not a cabinetmaker make. Check your contract to see if there was any mention of adherance to " plumb, level, square and true" or any other references to tolerance (in reference to measurement, not buffoonery;)) or accuracy. If so, you may have grounds to have him make good on getting things up to snuff.
As to the crown if he had to push it far enough into a dip that the molding was no longer straight- if it was in the first place- then the surface he was applying it to needs to be addressed. Typically, we just hit the depressions with another coat of compound (or plaster) to fair it up. I agree that, for the most part, there is not enough material on most crowns to scribe more than 1/16" or so.

I also agree with the others that Angies list, Linked In etc, can only locate someone for you. Reviews favor advertisers. You need to actually see their work to see it it satisfies your level of quality. He may not have been fibbing when he said no one else complained. I have seen some unbelieveable crud get by in my time.

Lastly- show him this thread! He won't like it at all. There are several working pros that have replied here, and each of us has been kind. He should stand up and make you happy.

Edit- 3/4" sheetrock? Maybe 5/8"? Or is it "blueboard" and plaster? Either way, remove the band and "parge" the cieling/wall straight, sand , repaint and reset the molding

[Brad Adams]

Was the contractor you have chosen, by any chance the cheapest bids you got?

[Jack Pinkham]

No. It was about the same as another we got.

[Jeff Duncan]

I can't add much to this thread except that you are far from alone. Just based on seeing what you have posted pics of, this kind of quality is the norm, NOT the exception! I've been called into peoples homes to repair the work left by other "high-end" contractors and cabinet makers several times over the years. My response is basically that I can replace it, but I can't fix another persons mistakes. The more they boast about how good their work is, the faster it falls apart;) I could literally write pages on how bad some of these projects are, but I won't bore you with that. I guess the good thing for me is these same people often think my work is absolutely incredible......which is not the case, but I'm glad they think it:D

Color mismatching is as the others have said...part of dealing with wood. A better craftsperson would have given you a better product, but would probably not eliminate it. The out of square cabinet, assuming your square is accurate, needs to be fixed. It's a sign that it was not installed properly and needs to be resolved. I would also recommend taking a quick check with a level known to be accurate and see if you cabinet fronts are fairly close to level/plumb. My guess is they're not and were just screwed to the wall. I also agree that crown molding is not generally scribed for the reasons already mentioned. There are other ways to fit it to ceilings walls depending on the circumstances. A flat molding on the other hand should be scribed as it's easy to do and looks better as a finished product.

good luck,
JeffD

[Jack Pinkham]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies! I see this ending up in small claims court. Our state's contractors' board
will assist in getting compensation from his bonding company after a court judgement. Angie's List will be getting a thorough review of his work. No, we're not taking him to court about mismatched trim. It will be about other problems which he refuses to acknowledge .

We just noticed another problem. We had him install a casement window unit.
He quoted us a price of $300 which seemed attractive. He said "Just order the window so that it will fit in the space of the removed window. It doesn't matter if it's a little smaller, because I have complete millworking capability"
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Although we thought that window installation included trim, we have now been informed that that's extra.
I measured the distance from the outside of the frame to the siding. On one end it sticks out 3/8". The other end sticks out 3/4", so it's installed crooked. The wood used is full of knots and looks like it was dressed with a hatchet. Precision hatcheting, I guess.

[Jim Riseborough]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies! I see this ending up in small claims court. Our state's contractors' board
will assist in getting compensation from his bonding company after a court judgement. Angie's List will be getting a thorough review of his work. No, we're not taking him to court about mismatched trim. It will be about other problems which he refuses to acknowledge .

We just noticed another problem. We had him install a casement window unit.
He quoted us a price of $300 which seemed attractive. He said "Just order the window so that it will fit in the space of the removed window. It doesn't matter if it's a little smaller, because I have complete millworking capability"
249977249978

Although we thought that window installation included trim, we have now been informed that that's extra.
I measured the distance from the outside of the frame to the siding. On one end it sticks out 3/8". The other end sticks out 3/4", so it's installed crooked. The wood used is full of knots and looks like it was dressed with a hatchet. Precision hatcheting, I guess.

Yea, this guy is not a craftsman at all. That is horrible. Im a DIY'r that can do better.

[Larry Whitlow]

Wow. This has nothing to do with "design". This has to do with execution, which in this case is bush league. I'm glad to see you are going to move forward with this. People who show this kind of disrespect for their work product should be called on it.