The TS Nickel Test

[Tom Hurlebaus]

A recent thread (Jeff in Illinois) provided a very enjoyable picture commentary on the purchase and setup of the new cMan TS. It ended with the TS nickel test …

Now, balance a nickel on edge on the table top and turn the saw on. If the nickel falls, you have too much vibration. The most common cause of this is a worn belt and pulley. Replace with a new belt and machined pulleys if needed. The saw should start up and run while the nickel remains balanced on edge.

Not only did the new cMan pass this test, but the nickel also remained on edge as a board was passed through the blade.

Now, I had heard of this test a long time ago, but never tried it on my TS (old cMan 10” contractor). During a recent tune-up, I had dial indicator checked the arbor (.001) and upgraded to one of those new link belts, so last night I thought I’d give it a try (without a blade – shouldn’t make a difference ?)….

FAIL !! I guess I never noticed that I have a minor (?) vibration. I checked the motor with the belt off and it appears (?) to be coming from the motor, but with the typical motor mount of a contractor saw, I would think it would be impossible to eliminate all table top vibration. I’m going to try a thick rubber pad gasket tonight, but I don’t think it will make much of a difference.

Is this a test that would only apply to a cabinet saw ?

Tom

[Michael Gibbons]

Tom, Woodcraft sells an after-market pulley system that are machined and balanced . The print says it will be better than the originals. I dont know what kind of saw you have but they make them for Delta and Craftsman. Mate those with your link belt and maybe...

[Tom Hurlebaus]

Mike,

Thanks ... I tried to find machined replacement pulleys when I performed my recent tune-up, but couldn't even find them on the Web. I did pick up some cast pulleys that are apparently balanced (?) and I was told these were better than the originals, but ....

I found that Woodcraft does sell the link belt & pully kit, but I think I found the machined steel pulleys at a Farm & Fleet in town (who would have thought ?).

That's why I disconnected the belt last night was to eliminate the pulley equation, but maybe my logic isn't correct ..... Tom

[Ken Waag]

Tom,

I had a Delta contractors saw a while back and I got it to pass the nickel test. The link belt is an excellent start. The motor mount might help. What I found make a big difference was at the feet. Whatever vibration you have (and there's always some) vibrates throughout. One place it can express itself is the foot/floor junction. Try a firm pad, or even rubber feet, or cut swatches from that bumpy router mat stuff. See how that works.

If you really want to get serious and the above has worked to your satisfaction, Nothing eats vibration like weight. A simple test would be throwing a sand bag over the coss supports of your stand. Not elegant but if it works, you can build it in with a ply wood box or whatever.

Scroll saw fanatics like to build a base that is an open top box a few inches deep. Fill it 1/2 or 2/3 with sand, then fit a piece of plywood just inside the sides so it rests on the sand. they set the saw on the plywodd and run it to even out and compact the sand a bit. Smooth sailing after that. I've done a similar thing with other machines (don't use a scroll saw) and it is amazing. Sand is a great absorber.

Hope that gives you some ideas. Let me know what you do and how it works,
Ken

[Dave Wright #2]

Mass and quality manufacture are the key. My saw for the last dozen years or so was a Delta Contractors Saw. You could balance a nickel on its top while running with the blade mounted or off. It would even keep a penny (thinner edge) upright. I thought I had a pretty smooth machine until I got my cabinet saw last December. It balanced anything too, but felt smoother. An even more sensitive (but still easy) indication of vibration is to place a glass of water on the top. Even very small motions will cause ripples. The glass placed on my old Delta had a fine ripple pattern. When moved to the cabinet saw the water was dead smooth. Sweet.

None of this may matter though. If the saw runs smooth enough for your preferences and work, then the saw is fine. My first saw was a benchtop Delta. Now THAT saw shook too much. A glass of water wouldn't even stay on it, let alone have a smooth surface. The current cabinet saw is nice aesthetically but the contractors saw was plenty good for any work.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

That test is fine, but I wouldn't go nuts about making your saw do it. My new jointer and bandsaw pass the test, so does my planer. My table saw does most of the time, but sometimes it does not. You have done some great upgrades to your saw. If it is cutting well, I would probably worry less about the nickel.

[Carl Eyman]

Every structure - and a saw, stand, motor mount, etc. is one - has a resonate frequency. If the saw rotates at that frequency that structure is going to resonate and vibrate like when troops march across the bridge or the winds blow and the Tacoma Washington bridge goes down. Now if the resonate frequency of your saw is 3450 rpm and you are operating your saw at that speed you are in big trouble. My saw has a resonate frequency of about 800 rpms (I think - never measured it). So when it slows down to a stop it vibrates pretty violantly as it goes throught the resonant frequency and would fail the nickle test at the resonant freq/rpm. One does not notice this on start-up as it goes through 800 rpm in a hurry.

Now almost anything you do to the structure like adding a brace or changing the size of the angle iron legs will change the resonant freq. So if you were unlucky enough to have a set-up with a res. freq of 3450 you could change it easily. But if you have a vibration at about 800 as I do, so what. I never operate at that speed

If any of you have ever played a stringed instrument, you know how a string can vibrate in sympathy to a tone that the string is tuned to. Same thing with you radio hams. So if you see some violant vibrations at speeds other than operating speeds, not to worry. Changing belts and pulleys if it doesn't change the res. freq. won't change tha tendency to vibrate as the machine goes through it.

If anyone thinks I'm wrong about this analysis, I'd like to know it. It's a belief I've had for all the years I've been fooling with machines. If I'm out in left field, I want to know it.

[Dave Wright #2]

You are probably right, or at least so far as really bad vibration goes. Unbalanced parts will shake to some degree at any speed, and then shake really badly at the resonant frequency. I struggled with my bandsaw for years before deciding that some basic part was simply tuned into the fundamental saw structure. No way could it be quieted to perform like a Mark Duginske saw. I still use the saw regularly, but have made my peace with the fact that cleanup of the cuts is required. Maybe someday I'll get a new saw, but it's not high on the tool list.

[Ray Bersch]

I don't put a lot of faiith in the nickel test - I tried this test on my saw just for kicks - a Ridgid TS2400 job site saw with a universal motor - and it stayed right where I put it - Now, I like my saw for what it is, but it is not a saw that I would call balanced, nor one that I would have bet the nickel would balance on. I would have bet many nickels that it would have taken a walk - or roll, or whatever - so, the nickel test is pretty far down the list for me.
Ray

[Jeff Pilcher]

I guess it's my pictures that Tom is talking about with regard to the nickel test.

I agree with many of the comments already made here in that I do not put much stock in the nickel test as a measure of quality. I read about the nickel test on another forum (for motorcycles) and ever since I have been putting nickels on everything.

I even tried to balance one on my wife :p (you should have seen the look she gave me). She failed the test by the way, and I'm keeping her. ;)
Sorry if I caused anyone any stress over this.

[Ken Waag]

I tend to think the nickel test has some value, though it depends on the degree of accuracy you are looking for. If you are working in 1/16ths it is probably moot.

When you get down to 1/32 or 1/64 it beomes difficult to see a fine scribe if it's vibrating. Also, I find it difficult to maintain a precise position of a piece if there is vibration present.

With very little difficulty i've gotten my TS, BS, and DP to a point where a disc of a dime's thickness stays put (don't use a dime as there edges are often slanted and you'd be lucky to get it to stand on a dead flat table with no vibtration.

Not necessary for most, but it is easy to do, and its kind of nice to hear and feel things running that smoothly.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Ray...yours must be better balanced than mine....has it been to the jobsite much? My 2400 couldn't keep a wooden nickel on it.....:D:D:D

My old 2424 would and my 1023s...well it'll keep a bunch of 'em motionless. But as a test of smooth? That's best tested with wood!

[Tom Hurlebaus]

It’s amazing how much knowledge I’ve gained since I’ve found this forum. I think I’m becoming a SMC addict.

I should have included in my original post that I wasn’t overly concerned about not passing the nickel test, but I’m always open to ideas to improve the accuracy, dependability and efficiency of my tools.

I had a chance last night to add a rubber gasket (3/8 thick) between the motor bracket and the mount and surprisingly I was able to get the nickel to stand. It fell on most tests on start-up, but Carl’s (Louisiana) very comprehensive and logical description of mass and resonate frequency, explained that to my satisfaction.

I noticed that I have a bag of cement sitting in the corner of my garage shop and just out of curiosity, I may try Ken’s (St. Louis) added weight factor.

Thanks for all the replies. I look forward to the day when I can add something note worthy to a message.

Tom

[Ray Bersch]

Kelly,
No this saw does not go to a job site - and neither do I anymore! I got it as my primary saw in my two car garage. I felt the size and storage was what I wanted because I can compensate for its short commings with other tools - it works well. I do take it with me to my summer home in Maine - I still have a lot of trim-out to do there and then the screened proch and then, etc - in between fishing, that is.

By the way, is your saw loud or don't you use it in and enclosed area? Mine screams.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Yessir, it's a loud one for sure. When it starts up sometimes it sounds like what I think the Sawstop would sound like when introduced to a hot dog. BANG!