Dust Collector A Lot of Work

[Brian Brightwell]

I have been in the process of installing a 5Hp Clear Vue dust collector. I should have done this years ago. Here are a few pictures.

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/095_zps010e3e75.jpg

I had to raise the roof a little for motor clearance. I wanted the intake as close to the ceiling as possible.

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/063_zpsc5daa9f6.jpg

I wanted some isolation between the piping and the machines. Rubber sleeves and clamps at the plumping store was like $13. So, I am going to try using an inner tube. It fits very tight and I can make 7 sleeves per $8 tube.

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/091-Copy_zps374f0b91.jpg
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/092_zpsdd721301.jpg

I am about to start my building my first blast gate tomorrow. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

[Dick Mahany]

Nice work !! Like you, I said should have done this years ago when I installed my DC and ducting about two years back. When it's finished, you will have one first class system, and wonder how you got along without it. Those fittings are getting pricey aren't they:( ? Just don't leave any tape measures or other valuable items anywhere near the blast gates ;).

[Jim Andrew]

Cool couplings. There is a plan for plastic blastgates on this forum somewhere. Seems like Terry Hatfield posted it.

[Brian Brightwell]

Yes Dick, expensive, $16 for Y's and $9 for 45's. I have been looking at how others have made there blast gates. I think I will use 15 of them.

[Paul Wunder]

Congratulations. If you are like the rest of us, you'll like your results.

BTW, Since you used PVC, did you consider using the ClearVue blastgates (the newly designed ones), Very good design. I'm pleased with mine and they fit the 6" PVC perfectly. At $15 each, I found them to be cost-effective. P.S. Blue is a neat color; I did mine in white and now I'm jealous. :)

[Lornie McCullough]

Very clever use of inner tubes.

Lornie

[Robert Payne]

The ClearVue blast gates are really good ones and they do fit 6" PVC perfectly, but if you want to make your own, there are several good plans for them -- Alan Shafftner has made them using laminate for the slides and creating a sandwich between two pieces of plywood or melamine -- I've made some with leftover pieces of 3/4"plywood for the bodies and 1/4" baltic birch for the sliders and a 6" coupling sawn in half glued in from each side. Here's a picture or two...

249512249513

[Dick Mahany]

I also recommend the Alan Schafftner design and made a dozen of them. They work well and were very economical. I had thought abut upgrading to the clearvue, but these work fine and I'll spend the money on tools ;) instead. Here's a shot of one that I made to terminate several down drops that use a movable tree underneath them when I need to change tool arrangements.

249514

[Brian Brightwell]

I saw the ClearVue gates and $15 isn't bad on the price but being cheap I would like to try making them. I have some sheets of plexiglass and some half inch plastic material I am going to try to use. It is the same material I made my box joint jigs from. (Pic). The stuff is strong, stable and slick. I ordered a fly cutter from Lee Valley and a straight cutter and matching bearing for the shaper to cut out the circles. I will see which works best.
I read where ideally blast gates should be high is the duct work but I did not understand why but I was going to try to place them as high as possible.

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/DSC_0095.jpg

[Dick Mahany]

I read where ideally blast gates should be high is the duct work but I did not understand why but I was going to try to place them as high as possible.

Most of my blast gates are right at the machine and work great there. The only ones that I have mounted up high are the ones for my down drop terminations.

[Jim O'Dell]

I like my home made gates better than the original CV units...haven't had a chance to get my hands on the new ones, but they do look better. Home made are easy to do. I used various materials, but the melamine shelf material is the best. I used 1/4" MDF for the slider section.249519 I have a thread here on how I did mine if you are interested. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?42643-My-adventures-into-blast-gates&highlight=BUILDING%20BLAST%20GATES I also have one 4" gate I did for fun, but kept because it works so well. The body is 1/4" Lexan, and the slider is a scrap piece of PTEG that Ed Morgano sent me to play with years ago. I use it for my TS overhead guard.

249518 This style of gate is self cleaning, so it never clogs up. Jim.

[Michael W. Clark]

I read where ideally blast gates should be high is the duct work but I did not understand why but I was going to try to place them as high as possible.

Brian, In your situation, I would put the gates wherever that are the most accessible for operation. One reason you see recommendations for gates to be close to the main is when the main is larger than the branch duct. For example, if you had a 7" or 8" main and 6" branch ducts. The velocity will be slower in the main and large chips could fall out into a closed downstream branch that was taken off the bottom of the main. Since you have a 5HP DC and all 6", I don't think this would be a problem.

The other reason to mount the gates high is in a commercial/industrial environment where you do not want operaters adjusting them on a balanced system. You put the gates where they are only accessible to maintenance or contractors balancing the system.

Mike

[Brian Brightwell]

Thanks for the explanation Micheal. I won't make high blast gates a priority now.
I worked maintenance at Rohm & Haas where we made plastic molding powder. It was abrasive and corrosive and I know I breathed a ton of it in 23 years. We had dust collection and baghouses a many but the only flow I had to mess with was no flow. Plugged lines.

[Michael W. Clark]

Plastic powder generates a lot of static electricity when being conveyed. The ducts have to be electically bonded, then grounded to dissipate the charge. Plastic powder DC lines are certainly prone to plugging. My Dad worked for Rohm & Haas in Huntsville for a period of time.

[Brian Brightwell]

Yes, we had a few booms at the Louisville plant and any remaining powder is tough to put out the fires. We had three driers, two of them were spray driers and two used a different process. All our baghouses were designed to vent explosions to suppressed areas. The drying units even had explosion suppression with sensors that sensed the pressure and then activated high pressure bottles with blasting caps. I worked on that a lot. However, once the drying was completed, we rarely had an incident in the storage and packaging process.
I remember after two explosions in a week I had to check resistance between pipe flanges that would have twelve 3/4 inch stud bolts and a bonding cable bolted to each flange. That was boring. They finally found the cause as a small piece of burned plastic that was missed during a clean. Ah, the good old days ??

[Alan Schaffter]

I like Alan Schaffter's design too! :D :D

This is posted here somewhere but I couldn't find it so here it is again.

I lined the faces of the MDF gate bodies with laminate and made the slides from back to back pieces of laminate- slide as smoothly as silk. Use a jig saw or band saw to cut rough holes in MDF squares (gate body halves), apply laminate to the inside faces, then glue one piece of PVC pipe in the hole in one square and one half of a PVC pipe fitting into another square (for gate with male and female connections). I used PVC glue which expands to fill voids created by the less than perfectly cut holes. Use a handheld router or router table and bearing trim bit to open up the holes in the laminate. The bearing rides on the inside of the pipe/fitting creating a perfect hole.

I temporarily taped the slide to one gate half. After drilling an access hole, I used a router to make holes in the gate slide.

I temporarily put a strip of thin tape along each edge of the slide for tight clearance, sandwiched the slide between the gate halves, clamped the "sandwich", then joined it with strips of laminate applied to each side. All gates are working fine 7 years later and after being modified to autogates with the addition of pneumatic cylinders.



http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1759/medium/Blast_Gate_Article1.jpg

Blast Gate parts:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1759/medium/IMG_3008.jpg

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1759/medium/Blast_Gate-exploded-C.jpg

Open the holes in the laminate:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1759/medium/IMG_3011.jpg

Apply laminate adhesive to the strips that hold the gate halves together:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1759/medium/IMG_3019.jpg

Assemble gate:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1759/medium/IMG_3140.jpg

Assembly line:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P10100431.JPG

[Michael W. Clark]

Yes, we had a few booms at the Louisville plant and any remaining powder is tough to put out the fires. We had three driers, two of them were spray driers and two used a different process. All our baghouses were designed to vent explosions to suppressed areas. The drying units even had explosion suppression with sensors that sensed the pressure and then activated high pressure bottles with blasting caps. I worked on that a lot. However, once the drying was completed, we rarely had an incident in the storage and packaging process.
I remember after two explosions in a week I had to check resistance between pipe flanges that would have twelve 3/4 inch stud bolts and a bonding cable bolted to each flange. That was boring. They finally found the cause as a small piece of burned plastic that was missed during a clean. Ah, the good old days ??

Some materials are just a real pain in the neck to deal with from a DC/material handling perspective. Wood dust is actually a fairly mild application when you consider all the other things out there. We design systems with all the NFPA venting and isolation when required/requested, its becoming more common now. Its good for us, but unfortunately it really increases the initial price and maintenance of a DC system for the owner.

Mike

[Brian Brightwell]

This is a progress report. I started the DC today just to try it out. It pulled 16.9 amps with two six inch lines open and 15.5 with one open. I have a lot more to do.

This is how I made the connection to the bottom of the uni-saw. I flattened the pipe and made a box. It cleared all the saw dust out when I turned it on.
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/P1010001-1_zpsde7da91a.jpg
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/P1010003-1_zpsb1dd6a66.jpg

On the two table saws, I have the top of the saw coming out of one pipe and the feed to the bottom of the saw coming out of the other pipe. Now, I was going to put the slide gate at about 7.5 feet high and connect the two slide gates in series so both open and close together.
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/P1010006_zpsaa17f6dd.jpg

[Alan Schaffter]

Gee, I wouldn't way to pay your bill for all that PVC!!!

[ian maybury]

Keep on trucking, and watch out for adequate headroom.

It can come as a bit of a shock just how much work a full system is to install. There's a point half way through figuring out the first run and you look at the big pile of 'stuff' still to be used, and then the dust system (fan/cyclone/filters and all that stuff), and then the wiring, and then buying all the ancilliary bits and then the issues of sorting out machine hooding and maybe also some building tweaks (openings in walls and the like).....

'Oh sh1t'....

Found I just had to keep the head down, stay focused on the job at hand and eventually the day comes when its done.

ian

[Brian Brightwell]

Gee, I wouldn't way to pay your bill for all that PVC!!!

I don't want to pay the bill either but I got tired of eating dust!

Yes Ian, I am experiencing exactly what you describe. I hope to be finished by spring.

[Jim O'Dell]

Do you run both TS at the same time? If not, it looks like you made the ducting overly complicated to me. I have two table saws also, but I would never run both at the same time. The lower (cabinet) collection is done with one down pipe that is split to each saw, each with their own blast gate. 252481 Here is a view from in front of the contractor saw. Notice you can just barely see the blast gate under the contractor saw at the top right corner.252480 And then the blast gate on the cabinet saw.252482 The TS drop is the first drop on the system. The main pipe splits after that and my overhead guard comes off of one side of that split.
Now, I see you have two 6" pipes coming through the wall from the cyclone...are you using the CV Max? If so, then your piping makes perfect sense. Jim.

[Brian Brightwell]

I don't run two saws or even two tools a once. What I wanted to achieve was the top of the saw serviced by one 6 inch pipe from my spliter box (on the wall) and the bottom of the saw serviced by the other 6 inch pipe from the spliter box. It was explained that with two six inch runs was the best way to take advantage of the capacity of the CV Max.

I am very pleased with the noise level of the DC not bad at all. I don't even have to turn up the radio to here Rush!

I think I am going to move this gate to the vertical pipe and link the two gates together. That would eliminate one motion before making a cut.

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/P1010004_zpsc9657dc9.jpg

[Brian Brightwell]

I still haven't made a decision on how to start the cyclone by a remote wireless control or micro switches on the blast gates. I know micro switches is more work but makes for one less thing to do each time. Can someone help me decide?

[Michael W. Clark]

Personal preference, but I don't think I would turn the collector off/on with gate switches unless I was going to automate the gates with the tool on/off. Otherwise, I think the remote is the easiest.

[Brian Brightwell]

I got these slide gates installed today. Only 8 more machines to go.

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/P1010016-1_zps3fa76b9a.jpg
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/P1010017_zps617b3629.jpg

[Alan Schaffter]

Personal preference, but I don't think I would turn the collector off/on with gate switches unless I was going to automate the gates with the tool on/off. Otherwise, I think the remote is the easiest.

I concur about gate switches, except I recommend that autogates only be used to turn the collector on, NOT off unless you add a "delay on break" relay. If you don't and are doing a bunch of quick, sequential operations you will cycle the blower motor too often and risk overheating and damaging the motor, pitting the centrifugal switch contacts, or burning up the start capacitor. For that reason many motor manufacturers recommend only six start cycles per hour.

My system is "almost" totally automatic (http://videos.americanwoodworker.com/video/Automatic-Dust-Collection)- my electro-pneumatic blast gates are normally triggered by the machine they service but each one can also be opened using a wall button if I use that drop to clean or clear the machine when it is off or connect a vac line, etc. to it. The DC is triggered and starts when any blast gate is opened via either method. But, I elected to configure it so I must manually turn off the DC. I decided the delay on break relay would add to the complexity. Additionally, the way my system works, once the DC is started, if there is a problem, I can still turn the DC off by pressing one of the stop buttons around the shop. With a delay on break relay that would not be possible during the delay period.

[David Kumm]

I would add that it is dangerous to have the gates close immediately when the machine is shut down, especially saws and shapers. Set the delay on break so the machine is completely stopped before the gate closes. Better for air quality too. By the way, Alan's pneumatic gate design is very cheap to build with parts from ebay. He was a great help to me. Dave

[Chris Parks]

I have a customer who has just done an installation using a programmable controller on each machine to control the Clearvue automated gates, they took standard gates and powered them with Pneumatic cylinders. The cyclone is never turned off the gates are what controls the system. It is the most complete installation I have ever seen and they are going to put up a web site showing the whole process. I will post a link so others may drool as to duplicate it would be very costly for anyone. It was all done under a government grant as part of the Men's Shed program in Australia.

[Wade Lippman]

What size inner tube? Where does one buy an inner tube?!

I have used old bicycle tube on Bessey clamp handles. They work nicely here.

[Brian Brightwell]

What size inner tube? Where does one buy an inner tube?!

I have used old bicycle tube on Bessey clamp handles. They work nicely here.

I can't remember the size of the tube I will look tomorrow. I stopped at a local tire store and we guessed at the size. We cut it into and it was perfect.

[Brian Brightwell]

I have a customer who has just done an installation using a programmable controller on each machine to control the Clearvue automated gates, they took standard gates and powered them with Pneumatic cylinders. The cyclone is never turned off the gates are what controls the system. It is the most complete installation I have ever seen and they are going to put up a web site showing the whole process. I will post a link so others may drool as to duplicate it would be very costly for anyone. It was all done under a government grant as part of the Men's Shed program in Australia.

I was thinking of a PLC, I have an old Allen Bradly slick 500 somewhere. But I don't think I have a programmer.

[Alan Schaffter]

I used a discarded blown truck tire tube a tire shop gave me for free. I have one between my duct work and the inlet to the blower and the one shown on the outlet of the cylone:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/IMG_4013.JPG

Oh, and here is the adapter I made for my Unisaw:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P3070163.JPG

[Jim Neeley]

Awesome Uni adapter, Alan! I have one to make myself (I started my CV piping install over my son's Christmas Break from college and hope to finish it this summer between my son's semesters). Qhat is it made from? MDF? Any sketches or pictures with the hood removed? I've got a HTC roller extension to add to my new Uni and think I'f going to need a similar hood to handle the small space available.

You're right, it's one heckuva lot of work. I found it made easier by buying a 1000# rated rolling scaffold (3'x6') that adjusts from 1' to ~5' high. Much nicer than working from a ladder!!

Jim in Anchorage

[Brian Brightwell]

Way to go Alan. I like the paint to match the saw. I plan on a little painting later.
So I was second one to use inner tubes at least I am not alone.
I noticed you used turnbuckles for plumbing the cyclone. Smart.

[Alan Schaffter]

Awesome Uni adapter, Alan! I have one to make myself (I started my CV piping install over my son's Christmas Break from college and hope to finish it this summer between my son's semesters). Qhat is it made from? MDF? Any sketches or pictures with the hood removed? I've got a HTC roller extension to add to my new Uni and think I'f going to need a similar hood to handle the small space available.

Jim in Anchorage

Thanks. It was made with 3/4" MDF and 1/2 of a PVC coupling (makes for a quick disconnect- see photo) and assembled with glue and brads only. I rounded the corners then painted it. It is mounted to the cabinet over the existing rectangular opening with screws installed from the inside.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/P3070161.JPG

Photo taken before I converted all my blast gates to auto-gates and relocated them below the floor:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/P3070165.JPG

[Alan Schaffter]

Way to go Alan. I like the paint to match the saw. I plan on a little painting later.
So I was second one to use inner tubes at least I am not alone.
I noticed you used turnbuckles for plumbing the cyclone. Smart.

I decided to use a flexible "tire coupling" and turnbuckles to make it easier to align the cyclone. My unit is plumbed in the "push-through" configuration so the cyclone and motor/blower unit are mounted separately:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P10100382.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P10100401.JPG

Here are some shots of the ducting that runs along the garage ceiling below my second story shop. Pretty straight and straight forward. No sharp bends, mostly 45s, and minimal changes in height- all downward. Autogates weren't installed and relocated to the ducting behind the shop walls or the garage ceiling until later:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P10100902.jpg

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P1010091a1.JPG

An auto-gate in the space behind the shop knee wall. This is a conversion of an old manual gate from my previous shop:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/P4280020.JPG

This is a newer gate. It is mounted along the garage ceiling where the duct goes up to a hatch covered in-floor DC port (see pics in previous post) for the tablesaw or jointer. I can't tell which:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P4280022.JPG

[Brian Brightwell]

Very slick setup Alan. Thanks for posting the photos.
Where did you get the 6 inch hose. I don't have a source for that yet.

[Jim Neeley]

Thank you, Alan!! :)

[Alan Schaffter]

Very slick setup Alan. Thanks for posting the photos.
Where did you get the 6 inch hose. I don't have a source for that yet.

I got it various places. I purchased some based on price (item cost AND shipping which can be expensive!) and some by application. I have a few feet in locations where it might be subject to abuse so I believe I got the heavier duty stuff from from Grizzly (Woodstock Int'l p/n W1036). It currently lists for $5.90 per foot. I probably have some I got from Wynn ($4.60, $9.80, $14.70 per foot for 10'), Oneida ($6.00 per foot for 6" dia.), at a WW Show, or from one of the WW retailers- I can't remember. The lighter duty, less expensive stuff was purchased from McMaster-Carr ("Clear Economical Clear Duct for Dust" p/n 56355K34 ). It is sold in 5' increments up to 25' and costs $4.83 per foot for less than a coil and $3.76 per foot for a full 25' coil. Prices sure have gone up since I bought mine.

[Jim Neeley]

A hint on shipping and kudos to Wynn for this:

You pay for volume when you ship hose, unless you ship it with heavy stuff.

Twenty-five feet of 6" hose rolled up is huge. A 25' roll of 6" compressed lengthwise is about 5' long x 6" diameter.

Jim in Alaska

Getting the vendor to compress for shipping brought my shipping cost for the hose down about $80 from ~$120.

[Ole Anderson]

6" HD clear, wire reinforced hose at Penn State is $44.95 for 10 feet. http://www.pennstateind.com/store/N-CVD-0610.html I have it in their 5" size to the bottom of my TS. Good stuff. You can almost stand on it, yet it is quite flexible.

[Brian Brightwell]

I failed to post the size of the inner tube I am using for isolation. It is KR 14/15. You can see the size in the photo.

[Andrew Joiner]

Brian I quoted your post from another thread. Did you move your cyclone? the pics I see show it inside.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Brian Brightwell http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2055126#post2055126)
I am just getting my DC off the ground. It is hooked to my table saws and jointer. I went with a 5Hp ClearVeu. I put the cyclone outside and discharge air is outside so no filters or dust from them are inside. Seems to work well. The noise is very tolerable. I don't even have to raise the volume to lessen to Rush.



Why would you need a cyclone if you're discharging your air outside? Couldn't you just blow everything collected into a container?

[Brian Brightwell]

Brian I quoted your post from another thread. Did you move your cyclone? the pics I see show it inside.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Brian Brightwell http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2055126#post2055126)
I am just getting my DC off the ground. It is hooked to my table saws and jointer. I went with a 5Hp ClearVeu. I put the cyclone outside and discharge air is outside so no filters or dust from them are inside. Seems to work well. The noise is very tolerable. I don't even have to raise the volume to lessen to Rush.



Why would you need a cyclone if you're discharging your air outside? Couldn't you just blow everything collected into a container?


Andrew when I say the cyclone is outside it is under cover but outside the shop area. Here is another picture. The cyclone is above the drum.
If you just blew everything outside I would think it would be a hell of a mess.

[Rick Markham]

Jim's gates are how I have my homemade ones designed. IMHO that's the best design since it prevents any clogging from happening, you just have to make sure you have room for them. I actually have nearly all of the parts for mine, but time has become a priority for me, so I'm giving the Clearvue 6" gates a shot. Mine are going to be used to close off of the branches from the central trunk, and to "shorten" the central trunk. I'm also installing the 5HP clearvue, my arrangement is significantly less complex than yours. The terminations of my ducts will have individual blast gates for each 4" (I'm trying the boxes from clearvue with the 4" gates in them too.) I am looking forward to seeing how your arrangement turns out!

[Alan Schaffter]

Jim's gates are how I have my homemade ones designed. IMHO that's the best design since it prevents any clogging from happening, you just have to make sure you have room for them. I actually have nearly all of the parts for mine, but time has become a priority for me, so I'm giving the Clearvue 6" gates a shot. Mine are going to be used to close off of the branches from the central trunk, and to "shorten" the central trunk. I'm also installing the 5HP clearvue, my arrangement is significantly less complex than yours. The terminations of my ducts will have individual blast gates for each 4" (I'm trying the boxes from clearvue with the 4" gates in them too.) I am looking forward to seeing how your arrangement turns out!

Despite what many may think (and despite what it says somewhere on Bill Pentz's site) you don't need to put blast gates where branches meet the central trunk! Doing so doesn't "shorten" the central trunk at all. As long as the machine blast gate is closed at the other end of a particular branch there will be no air moving in the branch and therefore the branch doesn't exist to the system! Doing so doesn't do much to prevent dust from settling in the branch either- if the branch is horizontal no dust will enter the branch. If it is vertical you'll still have a few inches for dust to settle in if it falls out of the dust stream due to turbulence at the wye and/or low velocity, but that is not likely in a 5hp ClearVue system.

Blast gates high in the branch won't hurt the system, but they are absolutely NOT needed.

[Todd Brewer]

I got these slide gates installed today. Only 8 more machines to go.

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/P1010016-1_zps3fa76b9a.jpg
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/P1010017_zps617b3629.jpg

That's an impressive system! Are you able to flip an 8' board (more or less) from end to end without hitting your ducts? I hate overhead "anything" and down drops because I know I will whack one (or more) when I go to flip a board from end to end. I had an 8" deep by 10" wide trench to my table saw installed when I poured my slab. My table saw has no overhead ducts at all. All other tools are along walls (this may not work for others). I realize installing a system after the fact involves compromises but have you considered consolidating your down-drops to give you more room to maneuver? Please don't take offense just looks like you could consolidate some down drops and give yourself more room to maneuver.

[Rick Markham]

Good to know Alan! Thanks, you just saved me some work!