Which Face Plate screws?

[Brian Kent]

What screw material do I want and what brand?

I am using the standard screw-on faceplate that comes with the Delta 46-460.
I am ordering from McFeeley's, which I have done before, but just got lost in the infinite variety of choices.

I want the strongest self-tapping square drive screw, #8, 3/4".

(I just broke off a home-depot 1-1/4" spax screw inside the bowl I was turning)

I know, easy question, but I don't remember which material or brand is strongest.

Thanks.

Brian

[Roger Chandler]

Brian........whatever you do .......don't use drywall screws! I like to use a panhead wood/ metal screw on some of my faceplates that do not have the countersink in them.......better hold...I also like to pre-drill my holes.....

...for those that do have a bit of a countersink, then it is advisable to use a bugle head screw........one that is beefier than a number 8.......try at least a #10 about 1.75 inches.....you want at least an inch or a little more into the wood if possible.......on smaller blanks it takes away some of the size of the finished turning , that is why I got a chuck........if you don't already have one, it should be on your wish list for sure!

[Brian Kent]

Thanks. I do have a nice chuck. My last two bowls have broken off at the chuck. One was gripped from the outside and another pushing out from a recess. It could be just bad coincidence with cracks. I have also tried starting with a spur drive, making the foot, then turning it around for the chuck, but the spur drive just spins.

These are also pretty small bowls - 6-8" across and 2-4 " deep.

[G. Brad Schmidt]

Though not a square drive, I've had pretty good luck with the blue KwikTap concrete screws at HD.
Those buggers are tough!

[Brian Kent]

Roger, you got me thinking that maybe the issue is I need some more "learnin'" on the whole topic of mounting the bowls for turning.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, you got me thinking that maybe the issue is I need some more "learnin'" on the whole topic of mounting the bowls for turning.

That thought had occurred to me, Brian.......the shape of your tenon needs to match the shape of the jaws of your chuck, so they mate up well. Then you need to have the shoulder [the part where the top of the jaws are against the wood blank] to be square [90 degrees] to your chuck jaws so they will seat correctly and run true. Last, you need to make your tenon length to not bottom out in the bottom of your jaws.....there needs to be a little daylight underneath that tenon on the bottom .....that way the weight and the hold of the blank is being held correctly by the jaws and not the bottom and it will also help the blank to run true............all these steps are indeed important..........hope you will give the chuck another go, and when shaping the tenon shoot for a really good match to your jaws.

One more thing........the diameter of your tenon needs to be just a smidgen bigger than the closed position of your jaws....say about 1/8" bigger..........that way you will get the full holding power of your jaws......if you jaws have wide gaps in them when around the tenon, you are actually only holding with the ends of the jaws [points] and are losing at least 50% of the holding power and that can make a blank come out of the chuck with a catch......

Hope this helps Brain! :)

[Brian Kent]

Thanks Roger.

I only recently got the info about depth of tenon. I used to make the tenon too long and it would bottom out. Now I am making them a bit short so the jaws register to the bottom of the bowl.

I had forgotten about making the tenon just slightly bigger than closed diameter of the jaws. I have not been doing that. I think that made and poor grip and may have helped the recent one to crack.

When you are first turning the bowl, do you use screws or a spur drive or something else to start (while turning the tenon to later put in the jaws)?

Brian

[Dennis Ford]

I use #10 x 1" sheet metal screws with hex heads for side grain orientation blanks. This puts just over 1/2" of screw into the wood and minimizes waste of wood. Nothing wrong with a chuck but a faceplate with plenty of screws is a stronger hold. Strength of the screws is not really an issue unless you over-torque them when tightening, ordinary screws are stronger than wood.

[Roger Chandler]

Thanks Roger.

I only recently got the info about depth of tenon. I used to make the tenon too long and it would bottom out. Now I am making them a bit short so the jaws register to the bottom of the bowl.

I had forgotten about making the tenon just slightly bigger than closed diameter of the jaws. I have not been doing that. I think that made and poor grip and may have helped the recent one to crack.

When you are first turning the bowl, do you use screws or a spur drive or something else to start (while turning the tenon to later put in the jaws)?

Brian

You can do it either way......my best luck has been to use a steb center for drive, rather that the spur center......sometimes the spur center just rotates and drills into the blank and loses its drive.......the worm screw is a good way if you have solid wood and not punky stuff........make sure you have tailstock support with your live center and watch your speed until the chuck is secured to the tenon.......for a 8" bowl I would try to turn about 600 rpm to 800......till I got the hang of it pretty well.

[Clint Baxter]

[QUOTE=Brian Kent;2028160]Thanks Roger.

I only recently got the info about depth of tenon. I used to make the tenon too long and it would bottom out. Now I am making them a bit short so the jaws register to the bottom of the bowl.

I had forgotten about making the tenon just slightly bigger than closed diameter of the jaws. I have not been doing that. I think that made and poor grip and may have helped the recent one to crack.

When you are first turning the bowl, do you use screws or a spur drive or something else to start (while turning the tenon to later put in the jaws)?

I use one of the chuck plates designed by Jerry Marcantel. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/content.php?129-Building-a-Chuck-Plate

Work great and very unlikely you'll spin one of these out

Clint

[Roger Chandler]

"I use one of the chuck plates designed by Jerry Marcantel. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/content....-a-Chuck-Plate (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/content.php?129-Building-a-Chuck-Plate)

Work great and very unlikely you'll spin one of these out" Clint

That is a really good option Clint......I have been meaning to make one of those myself, but just haven't gotten a round2it yet! ;)

[Thomas Canfield]

If you are doing green wood, then the tenon needs to be at least 1/4" larger than the minimum chuck diameter to allow for truing up the tenon after it has dried. I try to leave about 1/16" + clearance between tenon end and bottom of chuck. If you are breaking a tenon on a 6 -8" bowl 2 to 4" deep, then it sounds like you need to check out the quality of wood. Expansion into a recess does require solid wood and is more subject to failure with a catch. For cross grain, you should be using a push cut, from outside to center, which puts the cutting force toward the center and reduces the moment arm to break a tenon or recess and less likely to have a catch. Using a pull cut increases the moment and also the chance for a catch. You can add thin CA to the root of a tenon or recess to gain some additional strength also.

[Prashun Patel]

Brian-
I use the McFeely #8, 1 1/4" zinc plated sq drive screws. IMHO, you don't need a self-tapper; I've never had a split and I never drill pilots. FWIW, I too don't trust the Spax. I've had #10 spax screws snap before. Also, the spax recesses cam out quickly. The McFeely's can be used and reused many times.

I used to snap tenons too. It was due to two things: 1) not properly shaping the tenon; my Nova G3 requires a slight dovetail. However, the REAL reason was 2) bad technique. Once my catches reduced, the snapped tenons have become a non-issue. And I pretty much ONLY turn green wood, with bowls in the 10-12" range.

Out of curiosity, what type of wood are you turning? I also notice that when I turn the tenon on the pith side of the blank, it can be prone to crack.

[Brian Kent]

Prashun, I have mainly been practicing on my sycamore firewood pile. There are a lot of cracks, though I can find a chunk of wood on the non split side of the pith. The one I tried today gripping out from inside the recess was a piece that you sent me. I think it was cherry. Now it is a little shallower bowl blank :rolleyes:.

I just practiced on some more sycamore and the proper sized tenon helped a lot. It has a couple of cracks in the bowl that I am touching up with super glue before sanding. It may or may not survive as a bowl, but the technique I was practicing worked well.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I will show some of the screws I have used for years, still have them, they are good quality Robertson screws and 1" long, on sound side-grain wood that is plenty long enough.

Trying to use longer screws can have the screws break off easily, my faceplate is 1/2" thick plate that was faced off, so a hair thinner, the holes are relieved on the bottom so any upheaving of the wood doesn't lift the faceplate.

Top is countersunk and the screws fit right in there, so my screws do go in the wood 1/2", they are straight bodied screws, not like a tapered wood screw.

Now if you think 1/2" isn't deep enough, try to pull a screw out of the wood that is in there 1/2" deep with a faceplate keeping the wood down, and I bet you will break the screw, so why go any deeper than that ??

Having turning experience, I have rough turned blanks that where held with 3/4" screws, meaning just 1/4" deep in the wood, and I know that these blanks where held solid and safely, but you do need sound wood for that and good screws.

After roughing the blanks outside, where now the blank is balanced and much lighter, I will use my chuck and almost always use a recess, if the bowl is shaped properly, there is much more wood and strength in the recess than a round stub sticking out to hold it, and that is my experience after better than a half century of turning, and big bowls from heavy pieces of wood, if it counts for anything.

Start with good screws .............Faceplate installed ..............Faceplate the only hold ......recess clean and square.....Stronghold chuck solid hold ........finished roughout........on wheelbarrow wheel
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[Brian Kent]

Thank you very much for these pictures. That helps a lot in seeing how to make a beefier recess on the bowl bottom. You do such marvelous work!

[Thom Sturgill]

Everybody seems to fuss that the Nova chuck tightens in the wrong direction. I think that is because they are designed to primarily be used in a recess. That is also supported by the sizing numbers as they relate to the expansion size.

Like Leo, I prefer to use a chuck in expansion for bowls (and in compression for spindle work), in my case against a dovetail recess as the nova jaws are all dovetail on the outside. I usually start between centers to form the recess or tenon, but if the blank is solid and large I will also use the worm screw as that allows better access to the bottom. It also allows the top face to register against the chuck so the blank is true, which can be finicky when setting up between centers. On the other hand, starting between centers allows you to control the grain orientation better for a more artistic result. I use a specially ground scraper to to insure that the recess dovetail is at the correct angle and the bottom is square to the face of the jaws.

[Doug Herzberg]

Hey Brian, to answer your original question, I use 1" #10 sheet metal screws, except with my 8" faceplate, which has holes large enough for 1/4" lag screws. That's usually overkill.

I'm with Prashun, as you practice and improve your tool skills, this will become almost a non-issue, at least if my experience is any guide. I've launched my share of blanks over the past year. I hope you're wearing protection. Bill Grumbine's DVD on bowl turning shows different tool techniques in a way that was easy for me to understand.

Know the inside and outside dimensions of your jaws or even make a go / no go gauge to get the tenon or recess you need. I have several $1.50 plastic calipers from HF and use them all the time. A tenon or recess doesn't need to be very long or deep, especially in hardwoods, but while you're learning, a little extra doesn't hurt, as long as it doesn't bottom out.

For the original tenon or recess, I've bounced from one technique to another. I'm currently on a worm drive kick and I like it because it's simple. One thing no one has mentioned yet is using a forstner bit to create a recess in the blank. This is also quick and easy and lets you reverse the piece more than once.

Be safe.

[Damon Stathatos]

From a guy who's also trying to figure it out and slowly stumbling his way through...

For me, it's all about the wood and to minimize waste. I also want to end up with 'slabby' stuff, not eggshell dainty, and that's a whole other topic but is derived from my obsession to leave as much wood on the piece as possible.

If I start out with an x" thick block, I want my finished piece as close to the x"s as I can get. Screws typically yield x" minus at least an inch, add to that a tenon for the 'second stage' and you end up with a doubling loss. So here's what I do...

I run my blank over the jointer to get the ultimate top of my piece a flat face. I try to get the blank as perfectly square as possible. I draw lines on the diagonals. I mark the largest circle I can get with a compass, then bandsaw into a rough round. I then super glue a (as close to perfect) square, flat faced, non bottoming-out hardwood tenon to the piece using the diagonal marks to line up the four corners of the tenon. The geometry gets it glued pretty close to the exact center of the piece. I then chuck the piece up with the square tenon, the corners just sticking out between the gaps in the jaws. I think I once read not to use square tenons but looking at it after it's in the chuck, if there's a way for it to release, I have no idea how. The only way I can see it releasing is if the super glue fails which I've yet to have happen. I then get the piece roughly round on the lathe, leaving a bit of rounding left to do in the 'second stage' just in case the glued on tenon wasn't in the exact center, and finish the bottom with a recess. Then turn it around and have at it from the top.

This is the only process I've come up with to maximize the retention of as much of the thickness of the blank as possible and is also, for me, the easiest way to go about it. I cut the tenons in a couple of sizes and in quantities and leave them in my 'turning chest' for quick and easy availability. I can get from start to turning the round and bottom within just a few minutes, excluding glue drying time.

[Thom Sturgill]

Damon, not wanting to hi-jack the thread but I want to comment on your response. Try using the worm screw - it screws in the top of the bowl about 1/2" and since that gets removed when you hollow the bowl it uses no wood. Then cut a recess for the chuck as you stated. The recess gets used as the 'foot' or turned off when you are done. I have used recesses as small as 1/8" depending on the size and weight of the blank. The worm screw mounts in your chuck, and just about every chuck comes with one, so the chuck never gets removed from the lathe and it only takes seconds to mount. To me, the worm screw wastes the absolute minimum wood on thin blanks but I have used it to hold 10-12" bowls that were 5" deep. On a bowl that size a face plate would work too, but is more work. The faceplate screws would again be going into the waste wood area that is removed when you reverse into a chuck. It only needs to hold until you have the outside shaped and some semblance of balance achieved.

That still begs the issue of looks vs size. If you want the best grain pattern, starting between centers gives the most flexibility to modify the orientation of the blank. This is often needed with commercial blanks where they are concerned with getting the most blanks out of the log. If you want the largest possible bowl, or the quickest turning because you are a production turner, then the wormwood screw for smaller bowls or the face plate for larger bowls.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

From a guy who's also trying to figure it out and slowly stumbling his way through...

For me, it's all about the wood and to minimize waste. I also want to end up with 'slabby' stuff, not eggshell dainty, and that's a whole other topic but is derived from my obsession to leave as much wood on the piece as possible.

If I start out with an x" thick block, I want my finished piece as close to the x"s as I can get. Screws typically yield x" minus at least an inch, add to that a tenon for the 'second stage' and you end up with a doubling loss. So here's what I do...

I run my blank over the jointer to get the ultimate top of my piece a flat face. I try to get the blank as perfectly square as possible. I draw lines on the diagonals. I mark the largest circle I can get with a compass, then bandsaw into a rough round. ( I then super glue a (as close to perfect) square, flat faced, non bottoming-out hardwood tenon to the piece using the diagonal marks to line up the four corners of the tenon. The geometry gets it glued pretty close to the exact center of the piece. I then chuck the piece up with the square tenon, the corners just sticking out between the gaps in the jaws. I think I once read not to use square tenons but looking at it after it's in the chuck, if there's a way for it to release, I have no idea how. The only way I can see it releasing is if the super glue fails which I've yet to have happen. I then get the piece roughly round on the lathe, leaving a bit of rounding left to do in the 'second stage' just in case the glued on tenon wasn't in the exact center, and finish the bottom with a recess. Then turn it around and have at it from the top.

This is the only process I've come up with to maximize the retention of as much of the thickness of the blank as possible and is also, for me, the easiest way to go about it. I cut the tenons in a couple of sizes and in quantities and leave them in my 'turning chest' for quick and easy availability. I can get from start to turning the round and bottom within just a few minutes, excluding glue drying time.

For hose that want to use "boards" to turn a "Bowl" from, be they 1,2,3,4 or more inches thick, rather than fresh green wood, I can see they would want to keep all that expensive bought wood, and two glue blocks would let them turn the wood without "wasting" more wood now, (as a lot of wood was wasted already to get those boards :eek:).

However a square glued on "tenon" is still not a good way to hold it in dovetail kind of chuck jaws, the reason is that the corners are sharp and will dig into the wood and have very little hold, giving the wood a chance to start moving in the chuck while being turned.

Dovetail chuck jaws have only a very limited range where they do hold well, so either you have a whole slew of jaws and have to change jaws constantly (or buy a chuck for every set of jaws :eek:), here's two pictures that show the shortcoming of dovetail jaws.


This shows the corners digging into the wood, and also the limited size that can be used in dovetail like jaws.
249529 249530

This (The above shown problems) is why I have chosen for the Oneway profiled jaws, so that rather than being forced to size the tenon/recess to the jaws, I can make the tenon/recess fit the size of the bowl and not need and change jaws for every chance in size, as these jaws hold well in their total opening/closing range, HTH :)

249531

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Brian,
You already have lots of answers to your original question but I have yet another. First of all, I really believe in using a face plate in the early stages of learning bowl turning. I like it because it is the strongest way to hold a blank and until you get past bad catches you need all the hold you can get. Chucks are great and I wouldn't want to be without them but it's good to learn to turn a bowl without one. I often start big blanks between centers to align the grain the way I want it and to flatten a place for a 3" or 6" faceplate. I use #14 x 1" screws in my faceplates. I use screws with deep thread. On a big blank I might use up to 10 screws.
faust

[Brian Kent]

Well, I have had two successes in a row. What that means this time is the bowls did not blow off the tenon from the chuck. The size correction helped a lot (1/8" bigger than a closed chuck). I am also getting a little clearer on the angle of the bowl gouge and how to ride the bevel.

I tried one plain old Home Depot #10 x 1-1/2" phillips head screw on a pine jam chuck. Almost totally stripped the head the first time in. I put those back in a dark corner and used my longer McFeely's screws to start one bowl and the center bolt thingie to start the other.

Thanks for all of your input everybody.

[Ralph Lindberg]

I prefer "deck" screws, I've used both McFeely and Borg ones. Nice big threads.

[Jim Watkins]

Brian........whatever you do .......don't use drywall screws

Just curious Roger why you recommend not using drywall screws? I have been using them on small bowls and they seem to work good.

Thanks

[Roger Chandler]

Just curious Roger why you recommend not using drywall screws? I have been using them on small bowls and they seem to work good.

Thanks

Hi Jim........drywall screws have very little strength and they snap easily. The centrifugal force on a spinning blank is usually more that they are designed to handle. When I first started out, I used them also a couple of times, then I saw a thread about safety........I sort of ignored the warning.........the very next time I had 3 break off on me........the piece of wood was starting to come off the faceplate on that side and it also broke the tenon........

Mind you, I did have a bad catch that caused it all, but those screws are not strong enough for woodturning........Some folks may call this overkill a little, but I actually use #12 pan head screws 1.25" long most of the time. I also have some that are 1.5" long, and if the blank is endgrain mounted, I use the longer ones.

It is a safety issue.......you might get by with it a few times, but it can cost you big time in a ruined project or even worse, a serious injury..........best to pick up some good screws next time you are at the hardware store!

[Brian Kent]

Here is the fit that worked well according to the advise.

Tenon short enough that the jaws are up against the bottom of the bowl. Tenon just slightly larger diameter than the closed chuck.

Sycamore bowl, shellac still wet.

[Roger Chandler]

Looks like you have things working pretty good Brian. Glad to see the success you are having!

[Jerry Marcantel]

Thanks. I do have a nice chuck. My last two bowls have broken off at the chuck. One was gripped from the outside and another pushing out from a recess. It could be just bad coincidence with cracks. I have also tried starting with a spur drive, making the foot, then turning it around for the chuck, but the spur drive just spins.



Brian,
If you're having problems with your wood spinning with a spur, throw that sucker away and make yourself a chuck plate. You can find the article by going to "Articles" at the top of this page, click on tools, and then scroll down to "How to build a Chuck Plate" by Jerry Marcantel. Since I made my first chuck plate almost 2 1/2 years ago, I've only had to use a face plate and spur only once in that time frame...... The beauty of the Chuck Plate is you don't have a need to remove your chuck from the spindle.
As far as your tenons breaking, I had the same problem until I started making them to fit the largest size my chuck will allow. Since then, I haven't had a tenon fail...... ......... Jerry (in Tucson)

[Anthony Diodati]

From another guy who's also trying to figure it out and slowly stumbling his way through...............

This is what I have been doing too, but I have a little faceplate I use, I think it's about 3" diameter. But then it has a worm screw built into it. I got it at Craft Supply about 10 years ago. Looks like this.
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/5/-/25/109/-/5506/Precision-Machine-3%2522-Screw-Center-Chuck


Damon, not wanting to hi-jack the thread but I want to comment on your response. Try using the worm screw - it screws in the top of the bowl about 1/2" and since that gets removed when you hollow the bowl it uses no wood. Then cut a recess for the chuck as you stated. The recess gets used as the 'foot' or turned off when you are done. I have used recesses as small as 1/8" depending on the size and weight of the blank. The worm screw mounts in your chuck, and just about every chuck comes with one, so the chuck never gets removed from the lathe and it only takes seconds to mount. To me, the worm screw wastes the absolute minimum wood on thin blanks but I have used it to hold 10-12" bowls that were 5" deep. On a bowl that size a face plate would work too, but is more work. The faceplate screws would again be going into the waste wood area that is removed when you reverse into a chuck. It only needs to hold until you have the outside shaped and some semblance of balance achieved.

That still begs the issue of looks vs size. If you want the best grain pattern, starting between centers gives the most flexibility to modify the orientation of the blank. This is often needed with commercial blanks where they are concerned with getting the most blanks out of the log. If you want the largest possible bowl, or the quickest turning because you are a production turner, then the wormwood screw for smaller bowls or the face plate for larger bowls.

[Richard Jones]

I've used standard hex-head (5/16") sheet metal screws for my faceplate and use the same ones until they look so nasty I am forced to pitch them. Don't remember if I've ever had a failure from one.

That said, I also use a plate similar to what Jerry mentioned above, and use it on big, green blanks with zero problems. I use it way more than the faceplate.

Doug touched on a Forstner bit for a recess: I've had good luck with this for dry wood, never tried it with green. I use a 2 1/8" bit on the face side, or top, of a bowl or saucer blank. My 50mm jaws in my SN2 or G3 will just fit in this recess.

[Fred Belknap]

. I use a 2 1/8" bit on the face side, or top, of a bowl or saucer blank. My 50mm jaws in my SN2 or G3 will just fit in this recess.

I use this system a lot. The one drawback that I have is you need to be sure that you have it where you need it to be but I usually am pretty sure before I drill. You can loosen the chuck and move the bottom somewhat to adjust the balance on NE bowls.

[Reed Gray]

For mounting, I use a big forstner bit to drill a proper sized recess in the top of the blank and expand into that. No need for a face plate, except if the blank is over 18 inches.

I only drill pilot holes if the wood is dry. No need if the wood is wet. I do use galvanized #8 deck screws, standard philips head drive. One point no one mentioned is the torque setting on the drill. A lot of people set it as high as it goes. This is one reason why some snap the heads off their screws. I am usually at 1/2 to 3/4 max torque, which means just enough to get the screw all the way down to the face plate. Just like when tightening the chuck, I set the screws first, then go back to each one and tighten a bit more. If the top of your blank is not flat, you can do it with your drill press, the depth stop, and a forstner bit. Drill out the center spot first, then after setting the depth stop, you can flatten out around the center, leaving the mark to eyeball when you set the face plate. Any cracks in your tenon or recess are a huge weak spot, and it will fail unless you are very gentle, and lucky. Super glue will not fix those cracks. Fill them yes, but make it as good as new, no.

robo hippy