Rethinking this Neander thing

[Bob Glenn]

Last summer I added two rooms over the garage, a walk in closet and a REAL woodworking shop for me. The new shop is turning out nice. I installed unfinished red oak hardwood flooring and have large windows looking out over the lake.

Yesterday, I decided to build a tool rack to hold my collection of hand planes. I usually do the heavy cutting outside on my portable table saw, however, we had a foot of snow yesterday, so that was out of the question. I needed to rip a 48 inch length of poplar for the stiles on the rack, so out came my little used rip saw.

It actually didn't take that long to saw, but today, my shoulder is killing me. I guess old age is finally taking its toll.

[Curt Putnam]

Unless you hand saw every day you will have that issue every time. I am severely arthritic and have & use power tools when the task is beyond my capabilities.

[Jim Neeley]

That's one nice things about woodworking with Neander skills: It doesn't have to be 100% Normite or 100% Neander. You can use hand whenever you want to, as much as you want to, and still use power selectively when the work exceeds your capacity or desire.

"If it ain't fun, let someone else do it!!" (c) 2012 Jim Neeley <g>

[Jeff Heath]

The good news is that if you continue to galoot it up more frequently, it'll be good for you, and you'll start getting in better physical condition. It's always a good idea to warm up and stretch a little before doing any physical work.

Soreness from working hard is never as bad, mentally, as soreness from doing nothing.

Jeff

[paul cottingham]

I try to galoot most things when I am building, except for long rip cuts. Those are what God invented bandsaws and tablesaws for.

[glenn bradley]

Your sig line says it all; Life's too short to use old sandpaper and life's too short to do mundane tasks by hand when a power tool is available. Very few of the joints in any of my pieces go together without some hand work but, initial parts breakdown? Bring on the tailed tools ;-)

[John Coloccia]

I'm a fair weather neander, Bob. I use whatever tool is easiest/best (however you define that). For me, that ends up being a good amount of hand tools because I really just can' do what I do by machine without lots of BIG machines, custom cutters, etc. Anything I can use a machine for, AND be safe, I do with a machine. I suspect that most of us are like that. I don't even think I own a rip saw.

[John Powers]

Jeez, i love this thread and I love my bandsaw. Lets talk about why you'd bury your tools in a chest when you can just hang them on the wall. Why use a knife when a pencil mark is easier to see? Why putz with a brace when your Makita is close by? I must be crazy.

[Rodney Walker]

I won't part with my power tools. They save a lot of grunt work and free up time for using hand tools where it matters. I do enjoy the quiet of hand tools and have proven to my satisfaction that sometimes a handsaw is better and faster for a job than a power saw.
Rodney

[Jim Koepke]

It really doesn't matter what tools are used. The tailed tools in my shop are used when they do the job that needs doing. Most of the time it is the bandsaw. Trying to resaw short pieces of 4/4 stock is a bit of a mess with a rip saw. Though my rip saw does better at ripping a 10' piece of lumber.

jtk

[Jack Curtis]

Jeez, i love this thread and I love my bandsaw. Lets talk about why you'd bury your tools in a chest when you can just hang them on the wall. Why use a knife when a pencil mark is easier to see? Why putz with a brace when your Makita is close by? I must be crazy.

Are you serious? If not, please pardon my answers. Chests vs walls, probably doesn't matter much, except the tools in a wooden chest won't rust so much. Pencil vs knife: because saws and chisels can't feel pencil marks. Electric drill vs brace: because an electric drill doesn't come close to the torque I can develop with a brace.

[george wilson]

Since my left shoulder is nearly bone on bone(I am left handed),and loose in the socket,as are my bone on bone knees,and my back has titanium implants,and my neck is fused,and both wrists have carpal tunnel(as do my feet),I use power tools whenever possible. I save my hand tools for the final finesse,or for jobs that cannot be done with power tools.

I love tool chests,but not the type that sit on the floor since it it hard to bend over(and get back up). Most of my tools are in wall racks. I just keep a heated and cooled,dry shop above ground. And,make my wife keep the infernal garage door DOWN.

Make no mistake,knowing the use of hand tools is the most important thing you can learn. I just learned for the years I was in better shape!:) I got up at 4:30. Too much pain to stay in bed this A.M..

[Adam Cruea]

Heck, I'm 32 and I have soreness in my shoulders after rip sawing. I hacked a 6' long piece of 8/4 hickory and then went at it with a plane a couple of days ago.

My quads are still sore from roughing down that piece of wood with a plane and my stomach/shoulders were a little tender a day or two after. I'll take the soreness, though, instead of my shoulders being all floppy like they used to be and sliding out of the socket all the time for no reason.

[Jason Coen]

I'm a fair weather neander, Bob. I use whatever tool is easiest/best (however you define that). For me, that ends up being a good amount of hand tools because I really just can' do what I do by machine without lots of BIG machines, custom cutters, etc. Anything I can use a machine for, AND be safe, I do with a machine. I suspect that most of us are like that. I don't even think I own a rip saw.

I'm with John. My power tools are my apprentices - they do the stuff that's too much like work (ripping, re-sawing, initial stock prep, etc.).

I re-sawed, by hand, some 5/4 white oak last week. I then went and hugged my bandsaw.

[John Coloccia]

I'm with John. My power tools are my apprentices - they do the stuff that's too much like work (ripping, re-sawing, initial stock prep, etc.).

I re-sawed, by hand, some 5/4 white oak last week. I then went and hugged my bandsaw.

That's an excellent way of looking at it...LOL.

I know a lot of instrument builders that have beat up their backs, arms and hands. I'm already starting to feel it. That's partly why I'm moving to CNC for some things. I need a way to at least get to a rough shape I can work with without beating myself up too badly.

[Zach Dillinger]

I don't use power tools simply because my hobby is to reproduce 18th c. furniture (I don't sell much of that, simply because people who want a piece to look old usually want the piece to be old). 18th c. furniture is full of tearout, boards of uneven thickness, warps, cups, poor construction decisions, etc. So, while I know there might be an easier or "better" way, I try to do the same things that the original makers did. The way to do this is with the same tools that were used then, not power tools now. If I were making different things or had a different goal, my method might change.

I dream of the day when I could show a piece of mine to an expert and have them convinced its 250 years old. Not that I would sell it as such, I'm no Armand LaMontagne.

[Jason Coen]

I were making different things or had a different goal, my method might change.


My methods change depending on what I'm making, but I skew towards using the tool most appropriate for the task instead of trying to remain period correct. I made a couple of joint stools and the only electrons expended were those that lit the shop. In my estimation, the historical methods used are still the most efficient - no need for powered jointers or planers or mortising machines. Conversely, I'm currently finishing up an inlaid tea caddy for my wife and have used about everything - bandsaw, drill press, jointer, planer, even a router. I've used hand tools to refine the reference surfaces and assemble the banding, but I'll probably finish sand the piece simply because, with the funky-grained sapele and inlay, it's faster and will leave a nicer finished surface.

Neither approach is right or wrong, or one better or worse than the other. It's all about what you want to receive from the process of working wood.

[Zach Dillinger]

Neither approach is right or wrong, or one better or worse than the other. It's all about what you want to receive from the process of working wood.

Forgive my snippage. I agree totally with this idea.

To me, the most appropriate tool or method is whatever is period correct. But that's my decision and not one that I would ever try to force on anyone else. It just rankles me when people say something like "hand tools are too slow for modern times". Gets me going, and I need to back off from the "grumpy old fart" mode. I'm only 29....

I've said this fifty times here and elsewhere. The only wrong way to work wood is to not work it at all.

[Harold Burrell]

Heck, I'm 32...

Really? Seriously??? I don't even remember 32... ;)

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Zach's last post is right on, and echoes my sentiments. We all make a personal decision to do things however we see fit, and arrive at those decisions via whatever mental calculations we make, and there are a lot of different reasons for going one way or the other. But like Zach says, I would never want to try and force my reasoning on anyone else, it's my decision.

But it does bother me when people refuse to see (either) approach as valid.

For me, working by hand is the only way I'm going to be able to accomplish woodworking because of my living situation, but if I had the opportunity to own some power, I wouldn't balk at it, although I'd probably still do a lot more by hand than some folks simply because I find it enjoyable. But I don't rip, dimension, surface and resaw by hand out of some attitude of purity or anything.

[Bob Glenn]

If I recall correctly, reading Chris Schwartz somewhere, use power tools if your focus is on getting the work done. Use hand tools if your focus is on doing the work. Sorry if I got that wrong Chris.

[Jason Coen]

To me, the most appropriate tool or method is whatever is period correct.

I think this is a really interesting approach. Being a history major in school, the part of woodworking that I really enjoy away from the bench is learning how, and more importantly why, things were done "then" in the manner which they were. My problem in doing that is I'd go too far, like always, and my wife would come home one day to find the shop lit by candles and I wearing an Adam Cherubini get-up. Instead of looking like Adam, though, I'd look like something closer to a sweaty Ben Franklin. :p

Another interesting thought exercise, at least to me, is how would a period maker change his approach if he had access to the tools that are available today.

[Zach Dillinger]

I do own somewhat plain period shirts (I wear them for my work at the Charlton Park living history museum, not daily use... although they are extremely comfortable) and I have tried working by candle-light. Even bought a period-style tin lantern and a dozen beeswax candles at the Kalamazoo Living History show to give it a proper go. I had to quit after about 20 minutes as it was really straining my eyes. I suspect that the work would not have been done by candle light at 9pm, like I tried. You'd go blind inside of a month. I should try that again, but perhaps at dusk, not 9pm...

And my wife just leaves me alone when I'm working. The benefit of having a standalone woodshop. No intruders. Worst I get is the back-porch-mounted school bell that she rings to tell me dinner is ready, or when she rings it again 10 minutes later because I didn't come in fast enough.

The exercise of "how would a period maker change his approach" is also interesting to contemplate. If I recall, Adam Cherubini has written on this topic before.

[Adam Cruea]

Really? Seriously??? I don't even remember 32... ;)

Not surprised. I don't find many people in my age group that seem to be interested in doing woodworking. It's like my generation is all about immediate gratification.

Usually when I end up somewhere for woodworking stuff, I get the old guys telling me war stories and giving me advice, etc. I take it as a compliment that they're just happy to see someone from a younger generation interested in actually doing some work. :D

[Zach Dillinger]

Not surprised. I don't find many people in my age group that seem to be interested in doing woodworking. It's like my generation is all about immediate gratification.

Usually when I end up somewhere for woodworking stuff, I get the old guys telling me war stories and giving me advice, etc. I take it as a compliment that they're just happy to see someone from a younger generation interested in actually doing some work. :D

Here, here. Until very recently, I was the only active Midwest Tool Area C member under 30. You get a lot of "oh, its so nice to see a young person take an interest in this", but you also get good deals on expensive tools, sometimes.

[Jim Matthews]

I felt myself a hypocrite for using my bandsaw until I read Jim Tolpin's "The new traditional woodworker".

The bandsaw was invented when apprentices became scarce, and therefore expensive.
There's a reason drilling multiple holes by hand is called "boring".

I work by hand, until I can't.

[Harold Burrell]

Not surprised. I don't find many people in my age group that seem to be interested in doing woodworking. It's like my generation is all about immediate gratification.

Usually when I end up somewhere for woodworking stuff, I get the old guys telling me war stories and giving me advice, etc. I take it as a compliment that they're just happy to see someone from a younger generation interested in actually doing some work. :D


Here, here. Until very recently, I was the only active Midwest Tool Area C member under 30. You get a lot of "oh, its so nice to see a young person take an interest in this", but you also get good deals on expensive tools, sometimes.

Truth be known, the reason some of the guys here are Neanders is because that when they were in their 30's there were no "power tools"...

Because there was no electricity.

;)

[Jason Coen]

Truth be known, the reason some of the guys here are Neanders is because that when they were in their 30's there were no "power tools"...

Because there was no electricity.

;)

George isn't THAT old, is he?

[Andrew Joiner]

Great thread. I got my first table saw at 8 years old. I was a power hungry kid with no patience to sharpen the basic hand tools in my dad's home shop. The speed of the table saw over a dull old handsaw was a revolution. I did woodworking for a living from 1971 to 1991 using the fastest methods I could afford.

I lost interest in woodworking, and traveled from 1991 to 1997. Then I decided to make a few things. I built a tiny shed for my shop. My goal was to use hand tools to keep the dust down. I was retired so I wasn't in a hurry. It didn't take long before I got impatient and tired. My fingers got tired from scraping! Then I got hired to make an office full of furniture. I quickly bought some power tools. I made that furniture, a lot of dust and some good money.

I'm 61 now and in above average physical condition. Last winter I was hand planing a bunch of rough slabs to select for grain and color. I only needed to do a few spots on each slab to know which slab to process by machine. After only doing a few slabs I wanted a less tiring option. Bought a cheap power plane, had extra energy to lift and flip through those heavy slabs.

I love to exercise, but in woodworking when there is a faster less tiring method I'm all over it. I guess I'm still a power hungry kid.

[John Powers]

Jack, I am kind of kidding.....but....why tools would rust less in a wooden box on the floor than wooden box on the wall is a mystery to me.we seem to have no rust in south jersey. Suppose I do not want my saw to feel the mark? My 18 volt hitachi has so much torque it practically spins me around if the screw is frozen. We hated putting the bamboo away for the fiberglass rod then the fiberglass for graphite. I loved my old jack Kramer racquet but the graphite added years to my game. The fenwick and Kramer are in the rafters....can't part with them. I'll fight for a mans right to use his tools as he sees fit but I can't pretend that stooping over, lifting a lid, removing a tray to get a tool makes more sense than taking it off the wall. those wooden squares that swept the nation a little while back look and feel great. A marking knife digs right into them. Im mainly a function guy who uses a pencil with that wooden square.

[george wilson]

Jason,do you have any idea how hard it is to sharpen a saw with flint teeth????

[Sam Babbage]

I like the way the founder of the business I work for works, he's 76 and was classically trained in Italy, and has forgotten more about woodwork than I'll probably ever know. He still comes into the workshop every weekday (except Monday, that's golf). He prepares stock with machines, cuts joinery by hand, but isn't afraid to speed things up. He will use a domino to do a haunched mortise, then square it and cut the tenon by hand. I think that is the best way to work, not to adhere slavishly to a philosophy but to use the skills and tools you have to achieve a satisfactory result in a reasonable time-frame.

[george wilson]

I am not a fan of "loose tenons". Tenons need to be strong and reliable,especially on legs and other stress prone parts.

[Sam Babbage]

That's what I said, if making a frame and panel door, he will mortise the stile with the domino, then square it with a chisel and cut the tenon on the rail with a tenon saw, or Japanese saw. Whatever's closest to hand.

[Jack Curtis]

I thought you meant hanging on the wall more literally, not hanging in a wooden box; so my point was that wooden containers tend to discourage rust, something about how they absorb moisture.

That aside, I wasn't arguing that you shouldn't use those electric tools, but that there were often good reasons to go manual. And I absolutely adore my new Head racquet, it's like the racquet I've always been waiting for.

[Maurice Metzger]

Bob, what's your setup for ripping? Do you use a saw bench, or saw horses, or something else? In my not so extensive experience, sharpness and ergonomics are all you have with hand tools. It sounds like you have the sharpness down ("didn't take that long to saw"), so you might want to experiment with the best physical layout for sawing. I still haven't found the perfect setup but I think I'm closing in on it.

FWIW,
Maurice

[Shawn Pixley]

The getting older thing sucks doesn't it? With a garage that doubles as a shop, I get tired of moving things around. Lifting the 130 Lb woodworking bench on to the saw horses can be a pain but If I think of it as part of my fitness program, I can rationalize it for now. Time is precious for me. This guides how I do work. I did feel it the next day after doing a lot of chopping and sawing on my bench that must be too low.

I am another one of the "it depends" crowd. Getting stock to size is a mix for me. I rip and crosscut on the table saw. I flatten and joint using hand planes. I resaw and cut curves on a band saw. I smooth curves with a spokeshave (my current favorate tool). I thickness most times on a planer.


For joinery, it is a mix as well. Through dados on tablesaw. Dovetails by hand (mostly). Mortises by hand or by mortiser (depends upon how big and how many). Tenons either by hand or TS (nearly always "tuned" by hand. Miters by table saw. Inlay by hand. Rabbet or rebates by hand are electron assisted and then tuned by hand. I try to avoid routers, but there are some things where they are much easier. I generally drill with electrons.


Metal work, I do most by hand (forge welding, shaping, and casting). I like pounding the steel. Cut by hand, but drill with electrons (except on forge).


i guess my attitude is I do it the way I enjoy the task the most. Getting the outcomes I want is part of that.

[Bob Glenn]

[QUOTE=Maurice Metzger;2027949]Bob, what's your setup for ripping? Do you use a saw bench, or saw horses, or something else? In my not so extensive experience, sharpness and ergonomics are all you have with hand tools. It sounds like you have the sharpness down ("didn't take that long to saw"), so you might want to experiment with the best physical layout for sawing. I still haven't found the perfect setup but I think I'm closing in on it.

FWIW,
Maurice[/QUOTE

Maurice, I have a short bench that is a little too low for ideal ripping ergomomics. I intend on building some dedicated saw benches at the right height for me, but other details of the new are more pressing. I did most of it holding the board with one knee, but also tried sitting on the bench and running the saw with both hands vertically. I think I would adopt the latter method if I were to much more.

[Edward Clarke]

Jason,do you have any idea how hard it is to sharpen a saw with flint teeth????

Doesn't look too hard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATWze2l4sfQ

On the other hand, an expert can make anything look simple.

[David Keller NC]

Maurice, I have a short bench that is a little too low for ideal ripping ergomomics. I intend on building some dedicated saw benches at the right height for me, but other details of the new are more pressing. I did most of it holding the board with one knee, but also tried sitting on the bench and running the saw with both hands vertically. I think I would adopt the latter method if I were to much more.

Bob - Couple of comments about the physical effort to rip boards. There's no question it takes "sweat equity" to rip boards by hand.

BUT - there is a HUGE amount of difference between the physical effort required to rip boards with a slightly dull or incorrectly set rip saw and/or sitting on the board and ripping boards with a truly sharp rip saw and a correct-height saw bench. In the first situation, you will pretty much kill your shoulder because your arm is doing all of the work. In the second case, a fair amount of the cutting force is provided by the weight of your body; your arm/shoulder mostly lifts the saw on the upstroke. Another tip is to wax the sawplate, and prop the kerf open with a wedge.

Even the best, youngest and strongest of us will quickly tire if the sawplate is rubbing in the kerf, which can be caused by using a rip saw with too little set, using a rip saw that isn't taper-ground, using a sawplate that isn't waxed or lubricated (can be done with linseed oil or mutton tallow - that seems to be the British preference), or cutting boards that have twisted grain where the kerf closes down on the sawplate.

If your situation is that you don't wish to afford a bandsaw or table saw and/or don't have room for it, very accurate rips can be accomplished with a high-quality circular saw and an extruded-aluminum guide. Even though I have a tablesaw and a bandsaw, I will often choose the circular saw/guide combination if I have very long, heavy or awkward-width boards to process, because it's a lot less labor and strain on my back to move the saw/guide than it is to move the board through the machines.

[Bob Glenn]

Thanks, David. I have a band saw, table saw and a couple circular saws, but weather conditions and snow have limited their use outside. My new shop is above the garage and I don't want to lug the table saw and band saw up there and I hate to put a bunch of saw dust in the air with the circular saw.

I like your idea about lubricating the saw plate. I remember being amazed at how easy my planes slid across the boards after rubbing a little candle wax on the soles. My rip saw has plenty of set, how ever, I may touch up the teeth a bit before using it again. Good comments all.

[Jason Coen]

Doesn't look too hard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATWze2l4sfQ

On the other hand, an expert can make anything look simple.

To be fair, George did have to keep an eye out for saber-toothed tigers while he was sharpening, so I'm sure that slowed him down just a bit.

[David Keller NC]

Bob - A thought about the dust created by a ww machine. I find that the dust/chips created by a planer, jointer and bandsaw are far easier to deal with than the dust created by a table saw or (especially) any sanding operation. It's for that reason that I very rarely use a random-orbit or belt sander, and always with a powerful shop vac equipped with a HEPA filter. But I find that the dust created with a circular saw with an appropriate coarse rip blade isn't very fine, doesn't "hang" in the air like sanding dust, and is easily swept up. That's why I generally don't bother with dust extraction when cutting with a circular saw, though I would never even consider using a stationary power tool without dust collection.

[Adam Cruea]

To be fair, George did have to keep an eye out for saber-toothed tigers while he was sharpening, so I'm sure that slowed him down just a bit.

Must be why he keeps making guns and baby cannon. Still afraid the saber-tooths are out for his tools and he's getting to old to beat them down. :D

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

David - what do you suggest for waxing the saw plate? It seems like a lot of times if there's much oil or wax on my saw plate (usually oil or paste wax from trying to keep rust at bay) that a lot of times it make sawdust stick in the kerfs and makes my sawing less efficient. It may just be that those times I had too much on my saw, or it was the wood I was working or the oils or waxes used.

[bridger berdel]

not David, but I use carnauba when cleaning or rehabbing a saw, and a scribble of candle wax in use.



David - what do you suggest for waxing the saw plate? It seems like a lot of times if there's much oil or wax on my saw plate (usually oil or paste wax from trying to keep rust at bay) that a lot of times it make sawdust stick in the kerfs and makes my sawing less efficient. It may just be that those times I had too much on my saw, or it was the wood I was working or the oils or waxes used.

[Jack Curtis]

Ripping with hand saws is a lot easier when you allow the saw and gravity to supply all the power.

[David Keller NC]

David - what do you suggest for waxing the saw plate? It seems like a lot of times if there's much oil or wax on my saw plate (usually oil or paste wax from trying to keep rust at bay) that a lot of times it make sawdust stick in the kerfs and makes my sawing less efficient. It may just be that those times I had too much on my saw, or it was the wood I was working or the oils or waxes used.

Joshua - I use a few scribbles from a cone of beeswax. It isn't necessary to coat the entire blade, just a few swipes as one would do with the sole of a plane. I do keep the wax away from the tooth line - the friction generated from the sawing is enough to melt the wax, and as you note, potentially make the sawdust stick in the gullets

[Teun Venema]

I have a different reason than most for using hand tools: I'm afraid of power tools. The table saw scares the bejesus out of me, and a large bit on a router even more. The reason is that I need my fingers badly for my day job (banging a computer keyboard and squeezing a mouse all day long), and since I don't make a living out of wood working, I can afford to spend some more time or sore to get the job done. Of course, sharp hand tools can get you into ER as well, but the chance of losing (a) finger(s) is much smaller.

[John Coloccia]

I have a different reason than most for using hand tools: I'm afraid of power tools. The table saw scares the bejesus out of me, and a large bit on a router even more. The reason is that I need my fingers badly for my day job (banging a computer keyboard and squeezing a mouse all day long), and since I don't make a living out of wood working, I can afford to spend some more time or sore to get the job done. Of course, sharp hand tools can get you into ER as well, but the chance of losing (a) finger(s) is much smaller.

For what it's worth, I've been to the ER 2 or three times for woodworking accidents, and all of them were sharp tool edges. As they say, make sure you never push towards your hand because sometimes the wood breaks and a sharp chisel can do quite a bit of damage. I always take a little pleasure when they're sewing me up and they comment on how clean the cut is. "Wow, that must have been really sharp....this looks like a scalpel cut"...and I beam with pride :D

[Mike Holbrook]

I am working on a bench, saw benches...out of real wood this time around. I bought a Laguna 14-SUV band saw. I have a very nice nest of hand saws but I wanted something to make those long rips with. Now I have a choice. Now I am trying to decide whether or not I want a planer??? I think if I buy a planer I will get rid of the construction grade table saw and just do panels etc. with a Festool saw or hand saw. I even thought about doing long rips with a Festool plunge saw, then I tried it....Nice to have options on the big parts of the work.

[Jim Koepke]

I have a different reason than most for using hand tools: I'm afraid of power tools. The table saw scares the bejesus out of me, and a large bit on a router even more. The reason is that I need my fingers badly for my day job (banging a computer keyboard and squeezing a mouse all day long), and since I don't make a living out of wood working, I can afford to spend some more time or sore to get the job done. Of course, sharp hand tools can get you into ER as well, but the chance of losing (a) finger(s) is much smaller.

Teun, your reason is exactly the same as mine, except there isn't a day job in my life. My fingers are such good friends that it would be a shame to lose any of them. Most of my injuries with hand tools have been small nicks due to mind my wandering or not thinking of what is being done. Only one or two ever needed a band aide.

Another feature about hand tools, it is usually fairly easy to listen to music while working.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Bob, what's your setup for ripping? Do you use a saw bench, or saw horses, or something else? In my not so extensive experience, sharpness and ergonomics are all you have with hand tools. It sounds like you have the sharpness down ("didn't take that long to saw"), so you might want to experiment with the best physical layout for sawing. I still haven't found the perfect setup but I think I'm closing in on it.

FWIW,
Maurice

Not being Bob, my answer may not apply to him.

However, here is how my ripping is done:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?167535-Old-Saw-Ripping-Some-Ash

One of my other saws was toothed a bit more aggressively. An old Lakeside 8 was set up with 4-1/2 ppi (iirc). It cut well until it hit a knot and the plate snapped. It was only a little faster and required more effort. So 6 ppi will likely be my ripping tooth set up for now.

The construction of my saw benches can be seen here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?146777-Saw-Table-Project

With time and practice my saw tables/benches/horses construction is getting better.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

One of my other saws was toothed a bit more aggressively. An old Lakeside 8 was set up with 4-1/2 ppi (iirc). It cut well until it hit a knot and the plate snapped.

The whole plate and not just a tooth? Ouch! I guess I'm feeling less bad about the time I had a saw lose a tooth on an inclusion.

[Jim Koepke]

The whole plate and not just a tooth?

Yeap. The plate was fairly thin. In hindsight, maybe it should have been set up with a finer tooth count. It broke close to the middle. Maybe one day it will be rejoined and filed for a short crosscut.

jtk

[Jim Paulson]

Hey guys. We are all in the same boat I guess. I made another move in January and hope that was the last one. After weeks of visiting the chiropractor (after moving all those boxes), I'm finally ready to do some work with hand tools again. One has to pace oneself though. But machines still have a place in my shop. Personally, I still get a kick of using a well made and good looking hand tool like a plane. We have the advantages those in 1700 didn't have, we can use hand tools or electric machines whatever we think does it better.

[Prashun Patel]

I cant find many people on smc who have tried to push their religion on others. I wonder where the perception that each camp thinks its better than the other comes from.

I also disagree with the notion that hand tools are more about the process than the end and that power tools are preferable for a speedy result.

[Jim Koepke]

I cant find many people on smc who have tried to push their religion on others. I wonder where the perception that each camp thinks its better than the other comes from.

I also disagree with the notion that hand tools are more about the process than the end and that power tools are preferable for a speedy result.

+1 on this... To me woodworking is more about enjoying a journey to the result than whether or not one's tools burn electrons. My projects almost always involve some sacrifice of electrons by a cordless drill, bandsaw or drill press.

jtk

[Chris Hachet]

That's one nice things about woodworking with Neander skills: It doesn't have to be 100% Normite or 100% Neander. You can use hand whenever you want to, as much as you want to, and still use power selectively when the work exceeds your capacity or desire.

"If it ain't fun, let someone else do it!!" (c) 2012 Jim Neeley <g>
Exactly my philosophy...although I am enjoying hand tools more and more...

[Chris Hachet]

I don't use power tools simply because my hobby is to reproduce 18th c. furniture (I don't sell much of that, simply because people who want a piece to look old usually want the piece to be old). 18th c. furniture is full of tearout, boards of uneven thickness, warps, cups, poor construction decisions, etc. So, while I know there might be an easier or "better" way, I try to do the same things that the original makers did. The way to do this is with the same tools that were used then, not power tools now. If I were making different things or had a different goal, my method might change.

I dream of the day when I could show a piece of mine to an expert and have them convinced its 250 years old. Not that I would sell it as such, I'm no Armand LaMontagne.I never appreciated how cool all of this stuff was in an 18th century piece of furniture until I owned an actual 18th century piece of furniture. Now I know.