Results/questions after first use on Naniwa Chosera stones

[Joe Cowan]

I recently purchased the 800, 3000 and 10,000 stones along with a DMT diamond flattening plate. Today was the first day using them. I started with a LN block plane, in which I had previously sharpened with a Worksharp system. The first thing I noticed was the uneven distribution of the dark metal residue. It appeared to spread out in "pinhead" type spots scattered around the stone. I constantly applied a water spray (after starting off with about a 10 min soak). I used both sides of the stone to spread the use. As I had previously put a secondary bevel on the blade, I did not have the time or energy to remove all the metal needed to get the primary bevel redone with the 800 stone, so I worked on honing the primary bevel up to 3000. This did not work, as I was creating an entirely new primary bevel, as my honing guide angle( Veritas MK11), was different from the 25 degree angle left by the Worksharp. I ended up honing on the 30 degree secondary bevel with the 3000 and 10,000 grit stone. I decided to stop and think about things before moving on. I flattened the stones on the diamond plate and was surprised on how long it took to remove the pencil lines I had drawn. The lines at the edges took the longest, and led me to wonder if the stones came to me flat to begin with. This weekend, I am going to try my luck with brand new spokeshave blade and it looks like I will have to freehand that one, due to the short length of this blade. I bought a 240 grit Sigma stone to do the rough work, but did not take it out as the block plane blade was in good shape, other than just needing to be sharpened. Maybe next time, I start with this stone on the primary bevel and work up to the point that I have one consistent angle, then work on the secondary bevel, as it is already there? Any thoughts on this appreciated. One note, I have drawn a line in the sand and will continue with these stones with the plane irons from now on. I have a worksharp, and may use this just for chisels, as it is quick.

[Joe Cowan]

One other note, I did flatten the back first, using all the stones.

[Matthew N. Masail]

It will take you some time to get comfortable with the stones and how to use them - hollow grind? flat bevel? secondary or not, free hand or honing guide, flat back or ruler trick.... and this changes between different type blades. but eventually you will
workout what works for you and be free as a bird! I heard the 10000 can give an amazing edge, how did you like it?

[Joe Cowan]

It will take you some time to get comfortable with the stones and how to use them - hollow grind? flat bevel? secondary or not, free hand or honing guide, flat back or ruler trick.... and this changes between different type blades. but eventually you will
workout what works for you and be free as a bird! I heard the 10000 can give an amazing edge, how did you like it?

It cut well, with more of the metal residue around than I thought would show. I tried the block plane on a scrap and it cut with that "sound" that a sharp iron makes, but I am a novice and am on the top part of the slippery slope and not sure if it is "right".

[Curt Putnam]

Joe, I've recently re-ground several bevels (2 chisels, 1 plane) because of differences between the MKII and the WS3000. I'm going to work at shimming the WS3000 so that the bevels are closer. A conversation the LV customer service pointed out that the honing guides, while repeatable, are not going to necessarily give the stated angle. For example, using a Wixey for measurement, my MKII guide comes in at ~ 24.1° when set for NO micro bevel. The next two settings give me 25.? and a 27.? angles. So for me, the lesson is use one or the other all the way through to final stropping. They can co-exist if you grind a shallow primary bevel and then work with steeper micro-bevels. I might wind up going that route.

[Joe Cowan]

I did end up thinking that using the thin metal ruler to work the back of the iron (back bevel) would be helpful. The way to do this was with a 20/1000th thick metal ruler. Anyone use this method and if so, where do you find such a thin ruler?

[David Weaver]

Did you soak them for 15 minutes? If you did and they still behaved like that, they might have a bit of a skin on them that makes them more "sticky" at first, but that will change.

Once you've used them a couple of times, they should cut fast and not load (which is what these little pinpoints are).

[Charlie Stanford]

I recently purchased the 800, 3000 and 10,000 stones along with a DMT diamond flattening plate. Today was the first day using them. I started with a LN block plane, in which I had previously sharpened with a Worksharp system. The first thing I noticed was the uneven distribution of the dark metal residue. It appeared to spread out in "pinhead" type spots scattered around the stone. I constantly applied a water spray (after starting off with about a 10 min soak). I used both sides of the stone to spread the use. As I had previously put a secondary bevel on the blade, I did not have the time or energy to remove all the metal needed to get the primary bevel redone with the 800 stone, so I worked on honing the primary bevel up to 3000. This did not work, as I was creating an entirely new primary bevel, as my honing guide angle( Veritas MK11), was different from the 25 degree angle left by the Worksharp. I ended up honing on the 30 degree secondary bevel with the 3000 and 10,000 grit stone. I decided to stop and think about things before moving on. I flattened the stones on the diamond plate and was surprised on how long it took to remove the pencil lines I had drawn. The lines at the edges took the longest, and led me to wonder if the stones came to me flat to begin with. This weekend, I am going to try my luck with brand new spokeshave blade and it looks like I will have to freehand that one, due to the short length of this blade. I bought a 240 grit Sigma stone to do the rough work, but did not take it out as the block plane blade was in good shape, other than just needing to be sharpened. Maybe next time, I start with this stone on the primary bevel and work up to the point that I have one consistent angle, then work on the secondary bevel, as it is already there? Any thoughts on this appreciated. One note, I have drawn a line in the sand and will continue with these stones with the plane irons from now on. I have a worksharp, and may use this just for chisels, as it is quick.

After I read this I went out and hugged my 25 year old Craftsman 6" grinder and my Black Arky. The Dynamic Duo.

Otherwise, you might as well have written half your post in Greek. That's about how much of it I understood. I'm not sure if it scares me or amuses me that most people must know exactly what you're talking about - all these brands and grits. I thank God I don't.

[Joe Cowan]

After I read this I went out and hugged my 25 year old Craftsman 6" grinder and my Black Arky. The Dynamic Duo.

Otherwise, you might as well have written half your post in Greek. That's about how much of it I understood. I'm not sure if it scares me or amuses me that most people must know exactly what you're talking about - all these brands and grits. I thank God I don't.


Understand, as I want to hug this forum that has folks that understand the method I have chosen to sharpen my planes. As there are very many acceptable ways to sharpen, as you have found in your method, it has just come to me to choose one method and learn it very well. That is what I am doing with these questions.

[Jason Coen]

I did end up thinking that using the thin metal ruler to work the back of the iron (back bevel) would be helpful. The way to do this was with a 20/1000th thick metal ruler. Anyone use this method and if so, where do you find such a thin ruler?

I use a General branded ruler (obviously a generic made in China ruler, just happened to have General's name on it). I found it at either Home Depot or Lowe's.

[David Weaver]

I don't do the ruler trick much, but I also use a cheap chinese stainless steel ruler from a $9 measuring tool set when I do it.

[Jason Coen]

After I read this I went out and hugged my 25 year old Craftsman 6" grinder and my Black Arky. The Dynamic Duo.

Otherwise, you might as well have written half your post in Greek. That's about how much of it I understood. I'm not sure if it scares me or amuses me that most people must know exactly what you're talking about - all these brands and grits. I thank God I don't.

After yet another erudite and enlightening contribution, let us all be thankful your fear of learning new things did not stop with the typewriter, also.

[David Weaver]

After yet another erudite and enlightening contribution, let us all be thankful your fear of learning new things did not stop with the typewriter, also.

Fantastic :)

[george wilson]

Aw,come on!! It wasn't THAT hard to comprehend!!:) And,I don't even use those type stones. I use my diamond stone,followed by the Spyderco black ceramic,then the white ceramic,then a strop with green CrO compound. The ceramics are impossible to wear out,though I did flatten the white one with a diamond stone,and get the annoying "fuzzy" spots off of it. The fuzz is ceramic fuzz left over from casting the stone,and I doubt it would wear off if not for the use of the diamond stone.

But,I am typing this with my old kiddie typewriter with the round thingie in the middle that you have to rotate by hand to bring up each letter.

[Charlie Stanford]

After yet another erudite and enlightening contribution, let us all be thankful your fear of learning new things did not stop with the typewriter, also.

This must be the most thin-skinned woodworking forum on the internet. Come on, guys.

Is Naniwa the brand? If so, what does Chosera mean? If Naniwa is the brand/manufacturer do other people make something called Chosera?

Teach me something new. Is Naniwa the manufacturer and Chosera just a trade name for one of their stones? Does the word have any meaning in Japanese? Is it a region? A scientific name of some sort - Japanese for some sort of geologic formation?

Black hard Arkansas I understand. The stone is black, it's hard, and it's from Arkansas.

Unfortunately, I don't speak Japanese.

I did do a search and I see that the US dealers who sell them think they're the cat's pajamas - lots of nice marketing blurb and all. No need to regurgitate any of that here. Does anybody have any information beyond the puffery printed in tool catalogs and websites?

[Jason Coen]

This must be the most thin-skinned woodworking forum on the internet. Come on, guys.

I'm about as thin-skinned as a sledge hammer is subtle.


Does anybody have any information beyond the puffery printed in tool catalogs and websites?

Tons of info here if you use the search function.

[Christian Castillo]

This must be the most thin-skinned woodworking forum on the internet. Come on, guys.

Is Naniwa the brand? If so, what does Chosera mean? If Naniwa is the brand/manufacturer do other people make something called Chosera?

Teach me something new. Is Naniwa the manufacturer and Chosera just a trade name for one of their stones? Does the word have any meaning in Japanese? Is it a region? A scientific name of some sort - Japanese for some sort of geologic formation?

Black hard Arkansas I understand. The stone is black, it's hard, and it's from Arkansas.

Unfortunately, I don't speak Japanese.

I did do a search and I see that the US dealers who sell them think they're the cat's pajamas - lots of nice marketing blurb and all. No need to regurgitate any of that here. Does anybody have any information beyond the puffery printed in tool catalogs and websites?

Naniwa is indeed the manufacturer/brand. Naniwa makes many types of waterstones, the chosera is a line of ceramic stones which they produce. "Chosera", at least from what I remember from my High School Japanese class is composed of two components, Cho - super or ultimate, sera - short hand for ceramic, sera, cera-mic. So you can take that all together and translate the chosera stone line to ultimate/super ceramic. I have never used choseras, too expensive for me. I have read many users opinions and apparently many do think they are the cat's pijamas and all the choseras are solid performers.

[Archie England]

Naniwa is indeed the manufacturer/brand. Naniwa makes many types of waterstones, the chosera is a line of ceramic stones which they produce. "Chosera", at least from what I remember from my High School Japanese class is composed of two components, Cho - super or ultimate, sera - short hand for ceramic, sera, cera-mic. So you can take that all together and translate the chosera stone line to ultimate/super ceramic. I have never used choseras, too expensive for me. I have read many users opinions and apparently many do think they are the cat's pijamas and all the choseras are solid performers.

+1.

Can't say it better IMO

[Archie England]

This must be the most thin-skinned woodworking forum on the internet. Come on, guys.

Is Naniwa the brand? If so, what does Chosera mean? If Naniwa is the brand/manufacturer do other people make something called Chosera?

Teach me something new. Is Naniwa the manufacturer and Chosera just a trade name for one of their stones? Does the word have any meaning in Japanese? Is it a region? A scientific name of some sort - Japanese for some sort of geologic formation?

Black hard Arkansas I understand. The stone is black, it's hard, and it's from Arkansas.

Unfortunately, I don't speak Japanese.

I did do a search and I see that the US dealers who sell them think they're the cat's pajamas - lots of nice marketing blurb and all. No need to regurgitate any of that here. Does anybody have any information beyond the puffery printed in tool catalogs and websites?

Water stones, like oil stones, are a nature's gift, come from limited regions, and are rapidly dwindling in availability (or escalating in price). Consequently, there are several mfg companies that now make synthetic stones. King waterstones have a mud binder that suspends the abrasive. Baked somewhat akin to china, the stone wears quickly and that allows it to cut/hone a blade. Beyond that, other binders have been developed. Choseras have a a magnesia binder; Sigma Power stones, a ceramic binder. And so on.

[Charlie Stanford]

Water stones, like oil stones, are a nature's gift, come from limited regions, and are rapidly dwindling in availability (or escalating in price). Consequently, there are several mfg companies that now make synthetic stones. King waterstones have a mud binder that suspends the abrasive. Baked somewhat akin to china, the stone wears quickly and that allows it to cut/hone a blade. Beyond that, other binders have been developed. Choseras have a a magnesia binder; Sigma Power stones, a ceramic binder. And so on.

Thanks Archie. I'm assuming then that in the world of synthetic waterstones it is the binder that makes a difference in quality and price range. Pretty interesting.

Thanks again.

[Charlie Stanford]

Naniwa is indeed the manufacturer/brand. Naniwa makes many types of waterstones, the chosera is a line of ceramic stones which they produce. "Chosera", at least from what I remember from my High School Japanese class is composed of two components, Cho - super or ultimate, sera - short hand for ceramic, sera, cera-mic. So you can take that all together and translate the chosera stone line to ultimate/super ceramic. I have never used choseras, too expensive for me. I have read many users opinions and apparently many do think they are the cat's pijamas and all the choseras are solid performers.

Thanks, I suspected that the word Chosera was indeed descriptive.

[David Weaver]

Does anybody have any information beyond the puffery printed in tool catalogs and websites?

Charles, none of us have ever seen any indication that you're actually looking for information.

[Charlie Stanford]

Water stones, like oil stones, are a nature's gift, come from limited regions, and are rapidly dwindling in availability (or escalating in price). Consequently, there are several mfg companies that now make synthetic stones. King waterstones have a mud binder that suspends the abrasive. Baked somewhat akin to china, the stone wears quickly and that allows it to cut/hone a blade. Beyond that, other binders have been developed. Choseras have a a magnesia binder; Sigma Power stones, a ceramic binder. And so on.

Archie, would the stones that use a mud binder be more like a natural waterstone all other things being equal?

Are you honing carving tools and turning tools on these things (outside bevels)?

[David Weaver]

None of the stones discussed uses a mud binder.

[Charlie Stanford]

Archie mentioned that the Kings use a mud binder. Is that not right? What do they use?

TIA

[David Weaver]

This thread is about stones that use magnesium salts. Since you don't really ever seem to have an intention of learning anything, maybe you could leave it to the people who have questions in earnest about the stones.

Some of the people who haven't been around the boards for years are not aware of your m.o.

[Mike Cogswell]

@ Archie:

Since I use King waterstones, I'd like to see an answer to Charlie's question.

I also feel compelled to ask: if Chosera means ultimate ceramic, why are they made of magnesia and not ceramic?

[Charlie Stanford]

[QUOTE=David Weaver;2027281]This thread is about stones that use magnesium salts. Since you don't really ever seem to have an intention of learning anything, maybe you could leave it to the people who have questions in earnest about the stones.

Some of the people who haven't been around the boards for years are not aware of your m.o.[/QUOTE

David, give the grassy-knoller stuff a rest.

I'm just asking what the Kings use a binder. And also if folks are using these high-end stones with carving and turning tools or if they have alternate set ups for those.

[David Weaver]

You can use any of them for carving tools as long as you account for the properties of the stone.

As far as the grassy knoller accusation...I've seen you run too many beginners off boards to not make it known that your harassment is usually not in earnest. They are entitled to know about it ahead of time. The least you could do is offer advice in a way that someone new to the boards could use it (for example, "I think two arkansas stones and a grinder is more practical because...", as opposed to all of this "lawdy lawdy" stuff).

[george wilson]

Lawdy,lawdy,David,you is a stoner. :)

[David Weaver]

When it comes to stones, I'm like a politician. Say one thing, do another.

[Jim Koepke]

Charles, none of us have ever seen any indication that you're actually looking for information.

I am capable of being very abrasive in my dealings with others. I strive to keep such out of my communications on this forum.

A comment Charles recently made about using a lever cap to tighten a cap iron to a blade:


Oh cripes I do this. I must have done it thousands of time and haven't left so much as a mark on a lever cap and if I did I'd just move down and use another part of the cap.

To me, this describes Mr. Stanford. A person who proudly claims to use a method known to be fraught with failure over the last century and a half and would then after experiencing the failure continues along the same path does not strike me as one seeking knowledge, understanding or experience.

If he is genuinely serious, so be it. If he is pulling our legs, he is doing nothing more than annoying some of us while wasting our time.

Mr. Stanford seems to desire offending others for his own sport.

If he so desires to belittle others, let him be little of himself.

jtk

[Archie England]

@ Archie:

Since I use King waterstones, I'd like to see an answer to Charlie's question.

I also feel compelled to ask: if Chosera means ultimate ceramic, why are they made of magnesia and not ceramic?

Honestly, I don't know.

I'm familiar with the basic mud binder that suspends, as well as the magnesia binder; but, this is not an area that I know much about. What I do know is that the Choseras, once broken in (the "skin" that David referred to) will really do an excellent job of sharpening. In the waterstones, the binders (mud, magnesia, etc) and the grit type (AlOx, etc) combine to create slower or faster cutting speeds. Stones that cut faster typically wear down faster (and, hence, are messier). The Choseras don't wear down fast at all, but they do cut amazingly fast. To keep them from loading up, be sure to have a little longer soak (>15min but less than an hour) and flush often. I even wipe off the swarf in the early going because the presence of slurry makes little difference until a "certain" point. I know it when I get there! What I can say is that Nortons are faster than my oil stones; and Bester, Chosera, and Sigmas are faster than Nortons. How much faster. IMO, a Choseras and Sigmas earn the grade of A; Bester, B+; and Norton (1000) C. Once you get to the Norton 4k/8k stones, they move up to the B/B+ range. The magnesia based stones that I've tried are all A quality, are finicky to get started but finish fast and fantastically sharp. The down side of the magnesia is, it cannot tolerate continuous soaking, tends to load up if you're not proactive in preventing it, and are more susceptible to damage via sun or drying out conditions. Sigmas, Besters, and Nortons are continuous soakers, never load to a point that the stone can't push through, and show no tendency to be fragile. For more info, consult those who really know (academically).

[David Weaver]

Stu can tell us a lot more and for sure, but I believe that there are very few stones where ceramic means a ceramic binder. Instead, it means ceramic alumina, which maybe is a trade name for a tough type of alumina. I'm not sure, but the aluminas of all types might qualify as being a ceramic, I don't know. I tried for not very long one time to read about the alumina stuff and I couldn't find anything other than piles and piles of literature about various abrasives for industrial use. We see a narrow strip of them in sharpening stones, and we probably don't see them in the same terms they are used at their producers.

If I can decipher a point from charlie's comments, if you use only carbon steels, oilstones work fine. Especially if you tend toward the softer stuff that's stock stanley hardness. Sharpening with them is different, though.

The choseras are an exercise in making something really nice just to make it. They'll cut faster at the same fineness than oilstones and if you do everything but push an edge into them (like you might do with an oilstones), you can get a better edge in the same amount of time.

[Charlie Stanford]

Jim - the key is to just snug it up. Shower down pressure isn't needed, or wanted -too much cutter deflection and you can also cause the cap iron to bow up ever so slightly at the corners when, off pressure, it seems to fit fine. You don't need a turnscrew, just snug it up with the lever cap. The fact that you're worried about damaging the lever cap is good - keeps you from cinching the cap iron down too tight.

[Charlie Stanford]

@ Archie:

Since I use King waterstones, I'd like to see an answer to Charlie's question.

I also feel compelled to ask: if Chosera means ultimate ceramic, why are they made of magnesia and not ceramic?

Be careful friend you are about to be branded an irritant.

[Charlie Stanford]

Stu can tell us a lot more and for sure, but I believe that there are very few stones where ceramic means a ceramic binder. Instead, it means ceramic alumina, which maybe is a trade name for a tough type of alumina. I'm not sure, but the aluminas of all types might qualify as being a ceramic, I don't know. I tried for not very long one time to read about the alumina stuff and I couldn't find anything other than piles and piles of literature about various abrasives for industrial use. We see a narrow strip of them in sharpening stones, and we probably don't see them in the same terms they are used at their producers.

If I can decipher a point from charlie's comments, if you use only carbon steels, oilstones work fine. Especially if you tend toward the softer stuff that's stock stanley hardness. Sharpening with them is different, though.

The choseras are an exercise in making something really nice just to make it. They'll cut faster at the same fineness than oilstones and if you do everything but push an edge into them (like you might do with an oilstones), you can get a better edge in the same amount of time.

I'm still interested, as a general matter of shop practice, to know what folks use for their turning tools and carving tools' outside bevels when they've put these ultra Japanese stones into play.

And I am genuinely interested in knowing which binder mimicks a natural waterstone most closely.

[David Weaver]

It depends, the natural waterstones don't all feel the same. The choseras mimic a prefinisher or suita stone type of feel, but not the hardest of those. the japanese natural stone dealers regard the harder stones as unsuitable for novice users.

The hardest japanese natural stones have some stiction (they wouldn't if they were on oil, but that would be disastrous if they were used with oil).

With the exception of spydercos, there is no inexpensive synthetic stone comparable to a hard finishing stone that a skilled worker would use, the shaptons in the fine grits are probably the closest. They are softer so that they shed some grit, the hardest natural stones will not shed grit, which is why they work with the fineness they do, same as an oilstone. Except japanese natural stones of the finest type have smaller particles than oilstones.

You could sharpen carving tools on any of them, you'd still need slips.

If I had a limited budget, instead of trying to find high quality oilstones, I would rather have a medium and fine waterstone for planes and chisels, and buy something like this for the carving tools http://www.sierratradingpost.com/dan%E2%80%99s-whetstone-true-hard-black-sharpening-stone-6%E2%80%99%E2%80%99-black-arkansas-stone~p~5122d/?filterString=s~whetstone%2F&colorFamily=99

just my opinion after using all of them. If I had only oilstones, I'd focus intentionally on getting softer tools, and nothing more alloyed than O1. A2 is a twaddle on any waterstone, and in the hands of anyone but a complete hack, will plane longer and take about the same amount of time to sharpen on waterstones, maybe 15 seconds more.

The slips would still have to be oilstones, but you're buying those either way.

If we had the account of full time hand tool users, George is using spydercos, and was using am hone company stuff (razor hones) earlier on. Warren uses oilstones as far as I know. Brian Boggs appears to use a combination of waterstones and diamond stones (as far as i know, he does a lot of work, and entirely with hand tools). Who else is there of those still among us? Tommy mac was using a king medium stone the last I saw, and appeared to be making a lot of stuff (maybe he went to a higher finish on smoothing planes). I really don't know of that many full timers using oilstones.

[Jason Coen]

Roy, obviously, is still using oil stones. With the school in session he does a fair bit of sharpening.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim - the key is to just snug it up. Shower down pressure isn't needed, or wanted -too much cutter deflection and you can also cause the cap iron to bow up ever so slightly at the corners when, off pressure, it seems to fit fine. You don't need a turnscrew, just snug it up with the lever cap. The fact that you're worried about damaging the lever cap is good - keeps you from cinching the cap iron down too tight.

Having had cap irons slip from the screw not being tight has taught me how tight to turn the screw.

My procedure is also based on safety. It is difficult for the assembly to slip and cut the user if it is set on its side while the screw is being tightened. (edge to the right to tighten, to the left to loosen)

If there is enough bow in the chip breaker to cause distortions when it is attached to the blade, it is the chip breaker that is in need of correction, not how tight one turns the screw.

My method doesn't give me any reason to worry about lever cap damage. Using the correct tool in a proper manner to do a job seldom leads to damage, injuries or other problems.

Charlie,

You can attempt to justify folly until the end of time. It is a fool's errand, and only a fool will lend credence to your effort. Your remark about damaging a lever cap, "if I did I'd just move down and use another part of the cap." Tells me your way of doing things is not compatible with mine. In my work, too many injuries and damage (messes often left for me to clean up) have been witnessed when some "smart person" was using your kinds of methods to perform their work.

Your insistence on trying to justify improper tool usage is simply annoying.

So, continue if you must. My return to this particular conversation is unlikely.

jtk