Veneering......am I asking for trouble?

[George Farra]

I am building a cabinet to hold a 30 gallon fish tank which my wife would like in cherry. Rather than buying furniture grade cherry veneer plywood, I have enough lesser quality ply laying around the shop which I can wrangle atleast 1 good side (no voids) to build the cabinet.

Am I asking for trouble down the road if I applied a PSA backed cherry veneer to this plywood and called it a day?? I'm not that particular as to what the inside will look like since it not be seen much.

Thoughts?

Thanks

George

[Richard Coers]

I hate PSA veneer. It's just not that great of a long term product. I've never put it in a vac bag, maybe that would help it stick near the edges. If you insist, you can't apply it to raw wood. You will have to apply finish first, and sand it very flat. Also, the plywood likely is not flat, nor sanded well. You will have the plywood veneer telegraph through the thin cherry veneer. Add to all that my fear of water on wood, and I think you might be asking for trouble.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

George, I think you could veneer a fish tank stand with good success. After all, if the water is on the outside of the tank, you have much bigger issues. That being said, I agree with Richard on the PSA veneer. The thickness and glue are going to limit your projects final outcome. Do you have a vacuum press? Veneering with a good thickish veneer and good glue, like Better Bond or one of the UF glues, and you can have really good results.

The reason we veneer both sides of something is so that the substrate stays flat. You can turn a piece of baltic birch into a potato chip shaped object pretty quick with the moisture involved with veneering on just one side.

[Keith Christopher]

...Thee reason we veneer both sides of something is so that the substrate stays flat. You can turn a piece of baltic birch into a potato chip shaped object pretty quick with the moisture involved with veneering on just one side.

I do ALOT of veneer work and I have NEVER EVER had a piece of veneered plywood warp on me from veneering one side. Plywood is dimensionally stable.I would love to see some examples of this. That being said, I would put a nice veneer on one side and a decent one on the other just for appearance sake. If you don't you will wish you did later after a couple of years of looking at it.

If you don't have a vac press, have alot of clamps and cauls handy for a standard clamping cold press. I've used titebond cold press veneer glue and have not had any probllems with creep.

Just make sure you have complete coverage. I would recommend wood backed veneer for first timers. I agree PSA is bad choice for a finished piece,

here is a link for more information: http://www.joewoodworker.com/

[George Farra]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful infomation. I dont have a vacuum press but was going to create a press by sandwiching the veneered panels in between 3/4" plywood and uniformly weighing down with some barbell plates.

I will look into the wood backed veneers. Kieth...thanks for the link!

Regards

George

[Alan Lightstone]

The vacuum press provides much more pressure (literally tons of weight over something the size of a fish tank), but comes with a significant cost to purchase the pumps, bags, etc.

Use lots of clamps and cauls. This will provide much more pressure than weights.

I also agree in avoiding PSA adhesive. I'm partial to Better Bond, or UF. The Joe Woodworker web site is a good place to learn. I put balance veneer on the back side. Always have. Never had anything warp, though that proves nothing.

When you are done, make sure you have a truly waterproof finish on the cabinet. I have marine varnish on mine, and 15 years later, it looks as good as new. Water spills / splashing / etc.. are part of the deal when working with fish tanks. They can't be avoided. You just have to make sure that your wood won't absorb that water like a straw when it gets sloshed around.

Fortunately 30 gallons isn't that much weight, so structural issues shouldn't be too big of a deal.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I do ALOT of veneer work and I have NEVER EVER had a piece of veneered plywood warp on me from veneering one side. Plywood is dimensionally stable.I would love to see some examples of this. That being said, I would put a nice veneer on one side and a decent one on the other just for appearance sake. If you don't you will wish you did later after a couple of years of looking at it.

Keith, I haven't done this since my first time, 15 years ago or so. It was actually an attempt at hammer veneering that failed. I did not save that mess that it created. Maybe the ply was partially to blame too but it looked like something that belonged on the shelf at a big box lumber yard with all the rest of the dimensionally stable plywood. I veneer way more than most, and I guess after the failure I read that it was standard practice to do both sides for stability. It makes sense, especially with hide glue because of the water content. I doubt that one of the modern veneer glues would be as prone to it, but why risk it. Since then I have not had an issue.

Vacuum presses don't have to be expensive. www.joewoodworker.com is a source for all the stuff to build your own, many of us have. The most expensive part of my press is one of the bags. The Better Bond that he sells on his www.veneersupplies.com site is very good and drama free. I use it for bent lamination as well. Watch the shelf life though, keep fresh stock.

[Mike Henderson]

I do ALOT of veneer work and I have NEVER EVER had a piece of veneered plywood warp on me from veneering one side. Plywood is dimensionally stable.I would love to see some examples of this. That being said, I would put a nice veneer on one side and a decent one on the other just for appearance sake. If you don't you will wish you did later after a couple of years of looking at it.
I have to agree with Keith. I've never had a piece of plywood that was of reasonable thickness warp from being veneered on one side. After all, plywood is just a bunch of pieces of veneer glued together.

I do agree that the water in the glue causes warpage so you can test your plywood by wetting one side before you do the glue up to see if it will warp.

I have seen warpage in fairly thin MDF, such as 1/4" MDF, from the water in glue when veneering only one side, but it will often flatten out after full drying - it may take several weeks.

I've seen more problems in finished projects from not finishing both sides adequately so that moisture intrusion occurs faster on one side.

Mike

[Erik Christensen]

Mike & Keith

I have a vac press & bag and have done a moderate amount of veneering but I always (or most of the time) follow the advice of the experts and till now all I have heard is you have to veneer both sides to prevent warping. I am about to do my kitchen cabinets - face frame/full overlay with flat panel doors. I had ruled out doing an exotic veneer for the door panels just because I didn't want to take the time to veneer both panel sides.

So for you guys who have done a fair amount of this stuff - assuming a 1/4" BB door panel and stock 1/42" commercial veneer you think it safe to just do the show face?

Erik

[Mike Henderson]

Mike & Keith

I have a vac press & bag and have done a moderate amount of veneering but I always (or most of the time) follow the advice of the experts and till now all I have heard is you have to veneer both sides to prevent warping. I am about to do my kitchen cabinets - face frame/full overlay with flat panel doors. I had ruled out doing an exotic veneer for the door panels just because I didn't want to take the time to veneer both panel sides.

So for you guys who have done a fair amount of this stuff - assuming a 1/4" BB door panel and stock 1/42" commercial veneer you think it safe to just do the show face?

Erik
Relying on experts is not a bad approach but a better approach is to do some testing yourself. If you do a fair amount of veneer work, you'll have scrap veneer and scrap substrate in your shop. Try gluing some veneer on only one side of some decent plywood and see what happens. The advice I gave (and I'm sure the same is true for Keith) is based on my own experiences over a number of years of veneer work.

Mike

[Keith Christopher]

Mike & Keith

I have a vac press & bag and have done a moderate amount of veneering but I always (or most of the time) follow the advice of the experts and till now all I have heard is you have to veneer both sides to prevent warping. I am about to do my kitchen cabinets - face frame/full overlay with flat panel doors. I had ruled out doing an exotic veneer for the door panels just because I didn't want to take the time to veneer both panel sides.

So for you guys who have done a fair amount of this stuff - assuming a 1/4" BB door panel and stock 1/42" commercial veneer you think it safe to just do the show face?

Erik

Erik,

If you're buying a commercial veneer, and if it's for the inset doors I would veneer the back with something matching the color of the face veneer. I am sure you will be fine doing one side from a warping standpoint, but you will have a VERY nice looking exterior and when the door is opened, this not so nce interior panel. I think it would be worth it to do both sides just for appearance if nothing else.
And as stated above, be sure a put a good waterproof finish on it, plywood and water is never a good thing. And it WILL spill on it, and the humidity close to the fish tank will be higher than the rest of the house. It will matter.


Use lots of clamps and cauls. This will provide much more pressure than weights.

Fortunately 30 gallons isn't that much weight, so structural issues shouldn't be too big of a deal.

Agree with the clamps and cauls....better bond. 8 lbs a gallon x 30 gal = 240 lbs + tank weight + gravel/pump prolly around 250lbs total.


@everyone: I hope I didn't offend with my comments or disparage anyone's experience with veneering, I was simply stating in my experience I have never had a problem with a plywood substrate veneering one side, and I have done it MANY times where the back face will not be seen. But if it can be seen, I put a veneer on it for appearance not to maintain stability. I did test veneering a solid maple substrate, and it cupped quite nicely (I was bored. :) ) But in the end I guess it's like chicken soup for a cold.....can't hurt :)

[HANK METZ]

[QUOTE=Keith Christopher;2026663]I do ALOT of veneer work and I have NEVER EVER had a piece of veneered plywood warp on me from veneering one side. ... respectful snip...


I too have veneered one side only on many substrates including MDF with absolutely no consequences of warpage, The legend of "balance" as I see it is valid only for very thin sections of substrate where the veneer might overpower it.

Video of single- sided (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atTLzekpCkM&list=UUu_V0DUQ3ESxRWmqEWqUhJw&index=8) veneering.

- Beachside Hank
Improvise, adapt, overcome; the essence of true craftsmanship.

[Jeff Duncan]

You should be careful when veneering one side of something. It does depend on many, many, factors...but yes a panel can warp if only one side is veneered. Not only that but I've also seen ply panels warp from having too much sanded on one side, so that one face veneer was thinner than the other! Balanced panels are a fundamental part of woodworking and should not be ignored. That doesn't mean that every panel for every application has to be balanced. For instance.....the stand in question here is small and will be likely have enough rigidity built into it's construction to not be affected. Just don't take that knowledge and try to build an 8' long conference table in the same way;)

I also agree about PSA veneers, successful veneering takes a bit of work. PSA is an attempt to simplify the process....kind of a cheat and I don't trust it. I also would not suggest trying to clamp the way your thinking of. You will not get enough pressure nor will it be distributed evenly. Do a little homework on veneering though as there are other methods that can be done without a vacuum press. There are well established ways of doing things, when you try to re-invent the wheel vs learning proper technique you often end up with less than desirable results.....BTDT:(

good luck,
JeffD

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Erik, I would think that if you want to do one side show veneering on your cabinets, because the panels will be captured by the frame of the door on all four sides, you will have another line of defense against warping. Personally I would use a thicker substrate, and rabbet the back so the interior was flush with a nice show veneer inside too. 1/4" thick panels feel a bit cheap IMHO, and easy to change at this point. You don't see that often in cheap big box cabinets.

For the record, I do agree with the guys who one side veneer, 99% of the time it is just fine, especially with modern glues. I learned some of the veneering techniques from old books, that likely predated anything but hide glue. They did not veneer plywood or mdf then either. Times change, it may be an outdated rule, but it's a traditional one that stood for a very long time.

Keith, no offense taken, that's how we derive the practical answer to any given question.

[George Gyulatyan]

I think, after all said and done it will be cheaper and considerably less hassle to buy a single sheet of furniture grade plywood.

[Erik Loza]

...When you are done, make sure you have a truly waterproof finish on the cabinet. I have marine varnish on mine, and 15 years later, it looks as good as new. Water spills / splashing / etc.. are part of the deal when working with fish tanks. They can't be avoided. You just have to make sure that your wood won't absorb that water like a straw when it gets sloshed around....

Good points, all. In my experience, you do not need to necessarily varnish the interior of the fish tank stand. I use Killz primer on all the interior surfaces, though in this instance, also poured a layer of epoxy over the interior floor of the stand since there are open filter sumps inside and quite a bit of water can get spilled during filter maintenance...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/300%20gallon%20build/Stand-finalcoat.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/300%20gallon%20build/Tankstand-1.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/300%20gallon%20build/Tankfilled-1.jpg

I spill tons of water all over the outside/inside of this stand on a weekly basis and never have had any issues. The carcase exterior is just finished ply with latex enamel and then several coats of clear acrylic coating. To Alan's point, the key is making sure that you wipe up spills right away. Hope this helps,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Alan Lightstone]

You can just go solid red oak and avoid those issues also.

The solid wood handles the 6 tons of weight without problem. Of course, the concrete needed to be reinforced.

And yes, assume you will be splashing water. Because you will.