Excalibur Sliding Table - growing to dislike it - what am i doing wrong

[Larry Fox]

I have an Excalibur sliding table hooked up to my left tilt uni and I am finding that the thing is always in my way and I find it difficult to work around and wondered if I am doing something wrong. For example, I find myself having to remove and replace the fence about 300,000 times a day which is a hassle and I think I am wearing out the left-most hold down which affects it's accuracy. Essentially I have to remove the fence every time I want to do a rip cut. Even if the board I am ripping is short enough to fit between the fence and the blade when the fence is pulled all the way back, I feel kinda trapped by the blasted thing when making the cut. I find it TERRIBLE at holding accuracy when making an angled cut. Also, when doing a 45-degree cut, the fence does not have enough forward travel to complete the cut which makes me think that I have it installed wrong but I don't see how else to install it to remedy this. When making a 90-degree cross-cut I does very well but I have grown to distrust it and always have to verify the setting. Also, if I "bump" the fence or carrage - forget about accuracy - it needs to be reset.

Anyone else experience these types of issues or am I doing sonething wrong (both?)? I have been doing a lot of cabinetry work which requires working with sheets of ply lately and the extra support is great but I think that this thing hits Craigslist as soon as I am done with this cabinetry and my Jessem goes back on. Oh - and it won't cross-cut a 48" piece of ply.

Thanks in advance for your time.

[David Kumm]

Crosscut fence removal is the biggest drawback to short sliders. I run a second saw so I don't need to change out. Not space efficient but better than a long slider. Many have two saws set back to back and offset so you can rip, go around and crosscut. Generally a sliding table is used with a right tilt so you might find a deal on a used saw. Sorry I don't have a better solution. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

Why not just loosen the fence and slide it to the left and out of the way when ripping? Usually no need to remove it completely. Anchoring the legs to the floor with small angle brackets helps with maintaining accuracy.

Though I've gotten a lot of use from mine over the years, the thing does seem a bit fiddly at times. Someday I'll trade my Unisaw and Excalibur in for a small slider.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Larry, I've never used an Excalibur but I do have a big sliding tablesaw. Its interesting to hear the issues you bring up and look at how I deal with the same thing on the bigger machine. For example, the crosscut fence needing to come off all the time because it's in the way for a rip. First, a longer slide allows you to rip from the sliding table and leave the fence on. That's why people spec an 8.5' slider. You can also rip on the right of the blade and just let the offcut push the table with it, or just push the slider to the end if it bothers you.

The accuracy must be an issue specific to the way the Excalibur is built. I know though that I move that crosscut fence at times to either be pushed against by the stock, or to actually push the stock, depending on what I'm doing. It doesn't seem like that would be possible with a four foot side. Where is the inaccuracy coming from in your process?

One other thing that may help you live with it is to think about your workflow differently. Make a cutlist and do all the rips, then all the crosscuts. My machine is a combo that includes the planer/jointer. To use these efficiently with the saw or shaper, work flow must be planned. Interestingly though, by actually planning now, I nearly doubled my efficiency from the old plan as you go days.

[Jason Beam]

I have the small Excalibur slider on my PM66 and i wouldn't give it up for less than a full 8' euro slider, for sure.

I do have to take the fence off and put it back on from time to time. In order to cut a 48" sheet of ply, you have to put the fence on the BACK of the table (and subsequently flip over the stop and support arm blocks, PITA!). It's such a pain to flip all that stuff around, I've just gotten used to using the thing with the fence at the back anymore. It's not that different and when I need to rip something, I just slide the fence to the left away from the blade to make room. With the fence at the back, I'm not trapped at all by it and doing 45 degree angle cuts have a bit more travel that way, as well.

Anchoring the feet can really help with accuracy. About 4 years ago when I got it, I spent a good bit of time dialing it in as perfectly as I could - got all the fence stops and bearings exactly to within a gnat's patooty and so far, it has held up just fine, despite a few bumps and miles of wood run through it.

It does require patience, though. Without patience, most things are frustrating. It's not a multi-thousand dollar euro saw and we can't expect it to perform like one, even if the marketeers say we can.

It ain't perfect. But nothing in that price range comes close to the capacity and versatility so I keep that in mind when deciding what to expect from the device. It's not a Euro slider, so I don't expect it to be. It's a very fine solution for the money.

[Rick Potter]

A couple thoughts in addition to what Jason said. I had a large one, and the small one, and am currently using a Jessem. I actually like the small one better than the Jessem, and plan to swich back one of these days.

First, the Excalibur can be mounted in several places. With my small one, I mounted it back toward the operator by just using different bolt holes on the table and the slider. This gave me a capacity (with the small one) of 26" for crosscutting dado's on cabinet sides. This with the fence at the rear position (toward operator).

Second, I made an additional rear fence out of aluminum angle and wood with a T-slot for stops, which was only good for 90 degree crosscuts which was 90 percent of what I needed. It popped on and off easily, held it's setting, and the real fence could be used any time I needed it.

Third, If your saw is permanent in one spot, you can use simple "L" brackets to bolt it to the floor. Even if you move it around, if you get it set correctly, then drill a hole through the legs, you can bolt them at the correct extension, and not worry about them sliding if you drop a piece of plywood on the table. This idea came from Sam Layton. I have tried kicking his Excalibur, and all it does it hurt my foot.

Bonus idea: If you attach a piece of Masonite or something else thin to the bottom of the table, you can keep push blocks and other small items there where they are handy.

Hope this helps,
Rick Potter

[Rick Christopherson]

I think you need to re-evaluate what you are doing and how you have the slider set up. It should be extremely accurate and not getting in your way when not used.

Removing and installing the fence should take no more than 5 seconds. The right pin should never need adjustment and just drop into the receiver. The left clamp should be adjusted to be in the center of the T-slot and should not need side to side adjustment unless you are setting the fence to an angle (not 90 degrees).

The only time you should be adjusting the fence sideways is when making a miter cut.

Making an angled cut is where it is its most accurate, so something is wrong with your setup. The farther apart the graduations on the scale, the more accurate you can dial in the angle. If you have the small model, it is possible it won't make a 45 degree miter with the fence on the front. If so, then you would have to move the fence to the rear.

How you choose to mount the slider to your saw will determine how much versatility you will get. I mounted mine closer to the front so that it will make a full 48 inch crosscut without putting the fence on the rear of the table. (I have never needed to mount my fence on the rear.)

Oh, make sure you accurately calibrate your rails so their travel is parallel with the BLADE (not the miter slots). If the rails are not parallel to the blade, you will have problems with all of your cuts. You do not make this calibration with a tape measure. You do it by running stock past the blade in a cut. Also, understand that it is the outer rail that controls the table (unless they have changed the design since mine was built). So you change the parallelism of that rail via the cross beams connecting the 2 rails together. The rail that attaches to the saw is not the one that needs to be parallel.

248858

[Keith Weber]

Oh, make sure you accurately calibrate your rails so their travel is parallel with the BLADE (not the miter slots).

Your miter slots should be parallel to your blade if your saw is set up properly, so your rails will be parallel to BOTH.

[Larry Fox]

Thanks for the replies guys - I will have to take a look at my setup. Rick, I have mine setup very much like yours so question for you. How would you rip a board - say 8" wide and 8' long - down the middle? Would this require you to remove the fence? Also, if you were to try and rip an 8" wide and 3' long board down the middle I assume this would NOT require a fence removal but my question is where would you stand to make this cut and be able to control the stock?

If I were to do this cut and the table were NOT on my saw I would likely stand more or less right behind the blade - maybe slightly to the left - which is why I feel "trapped" by it. Maybe I need to adjust where I stand but this is how I have always done it (always a splitter in).

[CPeter James]

I have had one for over ten years and love it. On mine, early on, I ran two angle iron pieces out from the PM66 cabinet and built a platform for the legs to sit on. This makes the slider part of the saw. It also makes a nice shelf to store the fence if I don't need it. I will take some photos later and post them. Also, as said before, you can mount the rails in several positions front to back to get the most travel in relati0on to the blade. I did cut the rip fence rails off so that the slider rails can extend back a little further. More later.

CPeter

[Keith Weber]

Larry, I don't have an Excaliber, but I do have an Exaktor. I think that they're pretty similar. If I'm ripping a short piece, I can just slide the table and fence to the end of its travel behind the saw and it stays out of the way because my rails are fairly long. For long rips, I leave the fence attached, but I loosen the two knobs a half turn that allow you to slide the fence, and just slide it out of the way. It takes about 4 seconds to do this. I used to have the slider attached to my extension wing, so this gave me about 20 or 22" or so clearance to the left of the blade. I've just recently attached it with the wing removed, so now I'm down to about 10 to 12" of clearance, but this is plenty of room to rip your 8" wide board in half. If I'm ripping a full sheet in half, I have to remove the fence, but for 95% of the ripping I do, sliding the fence to the left is fine.

I have my rails set that I can crosscut 30" with the fence at the rear. I usually rip first, so I rarely ever have to crosscut anything wider than 30". I would love to upgrade to an industrial slider, but I would never want a cabinet saw without my Exaktor.

Keith

[Jeff Duncan]

As the others have basically said, you need to understand what that fence is....and what it is not. Yes you have to remove the fence for ripping and yes it's a PITA, but having owned one for about a decade now I wouldn't give it up for anything short of a true slider. You could slide it out of the way if you prefer I suppose, but then you have to have some technique for quickly re-aligning it for the scale to stay accurate. I have the smaller one and "improvised" the mounting to get a little over 36" of crosscut....which is enough for me. I use a track saw to crosscut full sized sheets when needed....also not ideal, but I get by.

So I guess my advice is to think your projects through as much as you can. Do as much or your crosscutting as you can then remove the fence for ripping....or vise-versa. That's how I work with mine and until I find myself a bigger shop....that's how I'll be doing it for the forseable future:o

good luck,
JeffD

[Sam Layton]

Larry,

I have the medium size Excaliber on my Powermatic 66. I have had it on for years, and I like it. However, I also am getting tired of removing, and installing the fence. I am restoring an old 18" Delta radial arm saw, with a 29" crosscut.
My plans are to use my ras for all cross cuts, and my table saw for rip cuts. If I need to cross more than 29" I can use my table saw.

I am following the lead of my good friend Rick Potter. He has a ras that will cross cut 36"...

Sam

[Steve Griffin]

I've used my Excaliber for years and love it.

Removing/installing isn't really a big deal, though I do try to group rips and crosscuts together.

I'd suggest work on ways to make removal easier. I keep mine on some U-hooks on the outfeed cabinet, so it's close by. I also have a dedicated nut-head screwdriver to tighten the one bolt that needs tightening. Calibration is fine between removals--use the stop and I have a fine pencil mark on the table end to double check square.

You can also shift the fence more away from the blade, which will allow ripping off narrow amounts without removing the fence.

Sometimes little tasks like this are more psychological than anything--I bet if I timed myself it takes about 9 seconds to make the change....

[Rick Christopherson]

Rick, I have mine setup very much like yours so question for you. How would you rip a board - say 8" wide and 8' long - down the middle? Would this require you to remove the fence? The fact that you're asking this question leads me to believe that you are sliding your fence left/right frequently. Don't do that. The only time you should be sliding the fence sideways is when you reset the whole thing for a miter cut. For most people, 90% of your cuts are going to be at 90-degrees, so leave it set for that.

The right hand pivot pin should be firmly (permanently) clamped into the yoke on the fence, and never moved/removed. The mating yoke on the table should be loose enough to slip the pin in and out for removal of the fence, but not sloppy-loose.

When setting the distance of the left clamping pin along the length of the fence (the distance between the right pivot and left clamp), make sure that the screw threads of the clamping knob are centered between the lips of the T-slot. That may sound trivial, but if the clamping knob screw threads are rubbing against the lips of the T-slot, the fence will move as you tighten the clamping knob. (i.e. the fence will walk forward/backward as you tighten the knob.)

With this, to remove/replace the fence, loosen the clamping knob, pull the left side back about 1-inch, and then lift the whole fence straight up. Replacing it is the same, and all you have to do is align the forward edge of the fence with the line on the miter scale. (I actually have a pencil line on the aluminum because it is sharper than the printed line on the scale.)


Also, if you were to try and rip an 8" wide and 3' long board down the middle I assume this would NOT require a fence removal but my question is where would you stand to make this cut and be able to control the stock?This is a situation where I do feel a little trapped by the fence, so I wouldn't be telling you this if you hadn't asked the direct question. If I am too lazy to pull the fence for a single short cut, I will slide the table all the way back toward the operator (as shown in my picture above) and lock it down from sliding. I stand in the corner made by the sliding table and its fence. If it's anything more than just one quick cut, I will remove the fence.

Hint: Never store your fence with the face of the fence downward, or even facing the wall if you stand it up. Aluminum will sag over time, and if your face is toward the wall or toward the floor, this will bow the fence over time, and it will no longer be a straight-edge against your workpiece. For long-term storage, I store the fence on a pair of factory brackets on the left side of the saw cabinet (1 is visible in the picture above) with the face of the fence facing the cabinet of the saw. More often than not, I just lean the fence against the wall to the right of my saw, with the bottom of the fence facing the wall. This way, any sag in the fence will be in the vertical plane when installed, and I will always have a straight-edge facing the workpiece.


If I were to do this cut and the table were NOT on my saw I would likely stand more or less right behind the blade - maybe slightly to the left - which is why I feel "trapped" by it. Maybe I need to adjust where I stand but this is how I have always done it (always a splitter in).I am going to post this video knowing full well that I will get hate-mail for it. You can even hear my camera operator acknowledge that I told her before I made the cut that people are going to hate it. I had just finished tiling the floor and my entire scrap pile is stacked up on the saw to get it off the floor. Normally the off-cut always goes to the right of the fence, instead of crossing the blade like I have to do here.

I am showing you this to show you my stance and handling of the (long) stock as it approaches the blade (not how you should handle the stock after the blade).



Before the cut starts, only the front corner of the workpiece is touching the fence. I am skewing this corner tight to the fence, and only when the blade enters the workpiece do I straighten it out parallel to the rip fence.
My left hand is biasing the workpiece into the fence. I wear a tight fitting gardening glove on that hand to avoid slivers because that hand has to slide along the length of the board. (A sliver will cause you to jerk away.)
My right hand is stretched out behind me and on the butt of the workpiece. Not the side---the butt. No matter how hard the saw pushes back, it cannot take that control away from me, even with the most violent kickback. (I once had an end-check of a board come loose and bind the blade so severely that it nearly stopped the saw, but the saw never took control away from me, and a full kickback never occurred.)
You'll also notice that I am putting so much down-force on the front of the board that I am bowing it. I push down with my left hand and pull up with my right hand. The blade cannot lift the workpiece off the table.
My feet and hips are in-line with the direction of the board. I cannot be pushed off-balance by a sudden change in the feed of the board.
I deliberately did not put in my ripping blade that I would normally use for this cut. That's because I wanted viewers to hear the motor getting loaded so they knew just how firmly I am feeding the stock. I maintain more control over the workpiece than what the saw is capable of taking away from me. If the saw can't take away my control of the workpiece, then it cannot kickback either. If I needed to, I could bring the 3 hp motor to a dead-stop and not relinquish control of the board to the saw. That's why I have never had a kickback during a ripping operation. The saw can never take control of the board away from me.
What you're not going to like is the proximity of my hand to the blade at the end of the cut. This is not something I advocate or even acknowledge for the average woodworker, but it is nevertheless part of the video, so I have to acknowledge it here. This is precisely the reason why I own a Unifence instead of a Biesemeyer-style fence. All but 2 fingers are locked to the right-side of the fence and nothing can bring my hand closer to the blade. Timidly holding the workpiece at this point could be catastrophic, but you'll notice that I still have enough control over the workpiece to still load the motor.
The biggest issue I have with the video is that the offcut should never go to the left, across the blade. Normally, the offcut would have been slid to the right of the fence before it ever got picked up and stacked. I was not comfortable picking that piece up, but my saw was covered with scrap lumber that should not have been there.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7MHJ_tOGgY

[Peter Aeschliman]

I'll add my two cents.

To the OP, you mentioned that you can't cut all the way through a piece when you're doing a 45 degree miter. This is because your rails are installed too far forward (toward the operator). You will probably need to drill new holes in the side of your table to move the rails back (away from the operator). Of course, the downside is that you will give up cross cut capacity with the fence at the front of the table, but you'll gain cross cut capacity with the fence sent at the back of the table.

I also struggle quite a lot with my Excalibur table. I think the biggest problem is not having the legs bolted to the floor. I kick them on accident all the time. I just need to get around to doing it, but I think my plan is to build a wood platform for the entire saw and slider to sit on. I'm tall and I hate hunching over the saw at its current height.

It takes a huge amount of work to get the thing dialed in, since you have to adjust it in all three dimensions... and unless there's a method I'm unaware of, all of them require a guess-and-check approach. It's super frustrating and tedious. The legs are the worst because there's no way to fine tune your adjustment based on the design. They should have leveling feet of some kind in my opinion, or some kind of threaded mechanism that allows you to adjust it in tiny increments. I have an idea for how I might modify the design for that as well.

My slider's 90 degree positive stop is just a bolt that pivots up. I also really hate that thing. It uses a double-nut design to lock it in. It's really hard to use your two wrenches to tighten it down without it moving on you, especially because the pivot mechanism makes it so that it won't stay still. I also never feel confident that my fence is getting set at 90 degrees every time. I'm worried that if i don't pivot the stop to the exact same position it was in when I calibrated the fence, it might be off. I try to pivot it to 12 o'clock every time, but you never know. This is probably just paranoia on my part. But I'd prefer a positive top that simply slide up and down vertically with a lock knob, maybe on dovetailed ways, and only had a very small contact area between the fence and the stop.

As for fence removal, it is what it is. You just have to get used to it unfortunately. I use my miter saw for almost all cross cuts, only resorting to the sliding table for cuts that are wider than my miter saw's capacity. So I'm not in a situation where I'm removing the fence all that often. I keep it stored under the saw 90% of the time. But end of the day, if you use your crosscut fence often, you'll have to remove it for most ripping operations.

I would love to buy a right-tilting saw and use it exclusively as a cross-cut saw. Then I could use my current saw (a sawstop) exclusively for more dangerous ripping operations. Space is an issue there of course.

Hopefully my point of view helped a little bit. Overall, I like my sliding table but it does require more fussing that I would like.

[Rick Christopherson]

Hopefully my point of view helped a little bit. Overall, I like my sliding table but it does require more fussing that I would like.If you're fussing with it, then it means you are over-thinking it. If you can knock your rail out of alignment by kicking a leg, then your cross members are not properly adjusted. If your rail can move by the leg, then those diagonal cross members are not doing their job. They should be rigid irrespective of the legs.

[Ray Newman]

For what it is worth: I have either the smaller Excalibur or Exaktor sliding table for my Uni-saw. Really can not remember which as there seems to be very little difference between them.

I also struggled with the set up. Especially leveling the table to the table saw and then adjusting the legs. What I did was to place a wooden stand under the sliding table and raised and lowered it via Starrett “Little Giant Jacks”. I was able to fine tune the adjustments and once done, I adjusted the table legs to the floor. Starrett as well as “quality imports” are available on-line from ENCO and other supply houses. See:
www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMK3?PMK0NO=1379637

As others posted and speaking from personal experience ’best better’ secure the sliding table legs and the table saw to the floor and make sure that all other adjustments, braces, etc., are tight.

Now having said all that, I finally removed the sliding table. I found that I just did not use it as much as I thought and it took up way too much room. For what I do, my track saw is easier and quicker.

[Larry Fox]

Thanks again for the time guys - Rick, thanks for the video. I see that you indeed do remove the fence for the long rip. I don't have a problem doing the rip once the Excalibur fence has been removed as I feel like I have ready access. I also appreciate your mentioning centering the left lock-down screw in the T-Slot as I do experience some "walking" when tightening it down and this is the reason. It seems to be getting worse which is what makes me think I am wearing it out. I might take this entire mechanism to a machinist and have him make me something a bit more solid as there is some slop in it. I also think I need to re-do the install and think about bolting it to the floor. At least one person has mentioned that they have another saw specifically setup for cross-cut and I might go that route. I actually have an old Rockewell RT-30 12" saw sitting in the corner collecting dust right now. It is my brothers and I am storing it for him but I might press it into service as he won't be using it anytime soon and if he needs it I will just buy him another saw should I get it integrated. Problem is that I can't figure out where to put it without blowing up my whole setup for a while as I move things around but that might just have to be the way it is. I would LOVE to have a Euro slider but I just asked the wife if I could spend $7,000 on a tablesaw and she asked if it had a $7,500 rebate so I will take that as a no. :)

I will do a little head-scaratching and shop mockup this weekend and post back with what I come up with.

[Chris Rosenberger]

I have had my Excalibur sliding table since the early 1990's. I have had it mounted on 3 different saws during that time. I also went through all of the issues listed above over that time. I made improvements on the way the table mounted with the last 2 installs. The first saw that it was mounted on was on a mobile base & the table legs just sat on the floor. As was said above, lots of time was spent adjusting. On the next saw setup, I attached the saw, outfeed table & table legs to the floor. Much less time was spent adjusting with this setup, but some was still needed now & then.

On my current saw/sliding table setup, I went even further. I not only attached the saw, outfeed table & sliding table legs to the floor, I also tied each end of the sliding table to the saw & outfeed table with cross braces.
Now the sliding table is solid as a rock, I have not made any adjustments to it in the almost 3 years that I have had this setup.

For the fence.

If I need to make a quick rip that will not hit the siding table fence, instead of removing the fence, I push the sliding table & fence to the back of the saw to get it out of the way.

To save time when moving the fence from front to back, I got a second fence. One is setup for the front & the other for the back.

When installing & removing the fences, I do not tighten the mounting brackets that the pivot shaft goes into. I have those set so the shaft is snug, but yet easy to insert & remove the shaft I only tighten the locking knobs that is on the locking shaft.

I do not do miters on the sliding table. There are many easier ways to do it.

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