Today's Epiphany With the Stanley 45

[Jim Koepke]

Many times back in the days when my fondness for buying Stanley 45s was strong a few were often seen on that big auction site with a slot cut in the rose wood fence. This always puzzled me as to why anyone would do that.

My pondering on this would often put me to sleep better than any pill or potion. Then when it hit me, falling asleep wasn't easy. It was the butt mortise plane that finally tilted my thinking in the right direction.

So today an attempt was made to see if my guess might have some validity.

The slot would help in the case of making a stopped rebate with the blade wider than the rebate being made.

My test was in using a #45 as a stopped rebate plane. It sort of worked. With a bit of work and maybe the addition of a thin runner to cover the skates it won't leave unwanted marks on the wood.

The plowing is started in the usual way, but as the cuts are made, the blade is advanced as needed. The depth is somewhat limited, but enough to make a good slot to mount something.

This may be another of the lost techniques from those who have done these things before us.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

Jim, could you please explain a bit more? To be honest, I have not the slightest idea what you're writing about....

[george wilson]

Me too!!:)

[Jonas Baker]

I was literally thinking about the same thing yesterday before I saw your post. How I could use, in my case the record 044 plow plane, to make stopped dados or stopped grooves for drawer bottoms. My thought was that I could advance the blade further out from the sole of the plow plane (think a router plane or butt mortise plane) and that would maybe allow me to plane a stopped groove, much the same as if I were using a router plane. Obviosly the front of the sole of a plow plane (area in fromt of the mouth) gets in the way of doing stopped groves or rebates, etc), but advancing the blade further beyond the sole would negate this limit) I never tried it, but I might today.

Is this what you're talking about, Jim?

Jonas

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, could you please explain a bit more? To be honest, I have not the slightest idea what you're writing about....



Me too!!:)

Okay, looks like some of my time today will be to take some pictures. My accumulation doesn't include any planes with a slot cut into the fence.

Voila! Currently on ebay are two planes with modified rosewood fences.

248715

248714

Often at times when one of my #45s is used, my mind ponders the purpose of this modification. My old thinking was that maybe the user didn't understand the ability of the plane's fence to ride under the blade when cutting a rebate (rabbet).

Then it came to me, what if the person was making a stopped rebate by resetting the blade with progressive cuts while the plane's skates are still riding on the top surface. As is often the case, the blade is wider than the rebate being cut, it would require a slot cut in the fence to allow the blade to advance.

Interesting in that it can't be seen in the images above, but the second plane, (the type 10) only has the slot cut about 1/2 - 3/4". It doesn't go completely through the fence. My guess is that this craftsman knew there was a limit to how deep a cut could be made. This technique relies on a blade without support to do the work.

So, as with many things in woodworking, this isn't a new discovery, it is a discovery of what some woodworkers may have done years ago that has been lost in the annals of time.

Maybe a few more pictures are in order.

Though none of my rosewood fences will be sacrificed for this. If need be, a fence of another wood will be made.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Is this what you're talking about, Jim?

Exactly...

jtk

[Bill Houghton]

The other possibility that occurs to me is that the owner who made that modification may have wanted to use a small portion of one of the molding irons, say an ovolo, that would necessarily stick down past the fence in order for the small portion in use to cut.

[Jim Koepke]

The other possibility that occurs to me is that the owner who made that modification may have wanted to use a small portion of one of the molding irons, say an ovolo, that would necessarily stick down past the fence in order for the small portion in use to cut.

That could be a possibility. One of the limits of the #45 is if the blades are not symmetrical they tend to not work well. The blade becomes unsupported by the skate and is next to impossible to use. The #55 solves this problem by one of the skates having the ability to be adjusted up and down. It also has an adjustable "shoe" that can ride between the skates to help add some balance.

One of my uses of the #45 was to cut an ogee. A lot of moldings can be cut with a #45, it just takes changing of blades.

Leave it to Stanley to make the spacing of the support rods different on similar planes so someone couldn't turn a #45 into a #55 by purchasing a few parts.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Okay, here is an experiment done in the shop today with some pictures.

Not wanting to sacrifice a good piece of rosewood a fence was made out of pine.

After the modification to the plane's fence were made and some more discoveries made a rabbet was laid out on the edge of a piece of scrap. Using a knife to mark the end point and start point turned out to be important for at least the end point. As the depth of the rabbet increased it became necessary to increase the depth of the knifed finish line.

Here is a shot with the plane set up with the blade in the slot cut into the fence.

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Next is a shot of the stopped rabbet.

248780

With each pass, the blade adjustment was advanced about a half to a full turn. This was softwood, so the thick shaving at a full turn wasn't all that difficult.

This rabbet is only 2" which might be easier to cut with a chisel. This was on a piece of scrap and was done mostly by eye. This required cleaning the shaving out of the plane on almost every pass. Notice that there is a ramp at the starting end of the cut. This is due to the angle of the blade mounted in the plane. It was cleaned out easily with a chisel.

This was done by eye but would be a lot faster with stop blocks clamped to the work to set the start and stop points.

During my experiments a stopped groove was also cut. There are a few more things to do in order to get the performance to my liking. When that is done it will be posted.

If this technique is unclear ask more questions.

jtk

[Ryan Baker]

This is an interesting thread. (Thanks for posting it Jim.) I recently had to do a bunch of stopped rabbets, which I did with a router plane and chisels. Something like this might have been worth trying. It wouldn't require a 45. I could see doing this with just about any rabbet plane, as long as you can advance the cutter far enough. Lack of support for the blade might be a problem though.

[Jim Koepke]

I could see doing this with just about any rabbet plane, as long as you can advance the cutter far enough. Lack of support for the blade might be a problem though.

My cut depth wasn't measured, but it was about a quarter inch. It felt like it could go a bit more.

This could likely be done by attaching a batten to the work to guide the plane. Having a fence is nice. If one were using this method with a stopped dado, then using a batten would be the way to go.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

Aha, I understand a little better now. What I don't yet understand is where the skates are running. In such a short rebate, of course they ride on top of the wood. But in a longer cut, they also ride in the groove don't they? And then they'd get in the way when making a stoped rebate?

I have no 45 to play with, but I guess it's the same with the 50.

[Jim Koepke]

Aha, I understand a little better now. What I don't yet understand is where the skates are running. In such a short rebate, of course they ride on top of the wood. But in a longer cut, they also ride in the groove don't they? And then they'd get in the way when making a stoped rebate?

I have no 45 to play with, but I guess it's the same with the 50.

Thanks for bringing that up Kees.

The excitement of finding a reason for something that has been nagging me for years blinded me to the reality of the situation you bring up.

Now it looks like the technique gets down to using this for the ends of a stopped rabbet and using the plane set up in the traditional manner for the rest of the rabbet.

My #50 doesn't have any wood on the fence. Maybe some can be added like was done with my Record 778.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

Yes, first the stopped part, and then doing the rest of the rabbet (or groove) should work, when the rabbet is long enough.

Or maybe it was because of the reason Bill mentioned?

I did indeed add the wooden fence to my #50. I don't remember if it came with threaded holes allready or if I made them myself.

[Jim Koepke]

Aha, I understand a little better now. What I don't yet understand is where the skates are running. In such a short rebate, of course they ride on top of the wood. But in a longer cut, they also ride in the groove don't they? And then they'd get in the way when making a stoped rebate?

I have no 45 to play with, but I guess it's the same with the 50.

And a later comment:
I did indeed add the wooden fence to my #50. I don't remember if it came with threaded holes allready or if I made them myself.



Kees,

This has been figured out. Set the depth stops to a little below the skates. Yes, it happened and there are pictures to prove it! :cool:

249190

Notice that there is a shim (~0.030" shown) under the skates in this picture while the depth stops are being set.

There is also a picture of a custom depth stop to help prevent unwanted marking of the wood.

249191

Using this and the auxiliary depth stop on the inside fence make it easy to do stopped grooves or beads.

Another anomaly came up with the Stanley 45 that will be added to an old thread in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs sticky folder. Maybe some pictures would help to better convey the problem.

As to the addition of a wooden fence to the #50, my bet is that you or a former owner did the threaded holes in the metal fence. Most of the factory holes in my metal fences were counter sunk for using wood screws. In the later days, Stanley dropped the counter sinking and switched to round head screws. Of course my thinking can be way off on this, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. At least until someone shows me wrong.

To be continued...

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

So, you use the depth stops instead of the skates? And you still get a decent cut?

Well, why not. Using chisels and a routerplane is a lot of work for making stopped rebates. Why don't you make a special purpose wooden plane for this purpose with one of these thick heavy duty irons from the old wooden plow planes? These irons should be a lot more stable for this then the thin Stanley ones.

[Jim Koepke]

At first there was a problem with the cut, but that turned out to be a subject for a different thread. It was actually a problem of my own creation that has more to do with the plane's set up than the work. It would have been a problem no matter what the plane was being used to do.

For my stopped plow cut with a 1/4" blade my depth was about 5/16" with no signs of not being able to keep going.


Why don't you make a special purpose wooden plane for this purpose with one of these thick heavy duty irons from the old wooden plow planes? These irons should be a lot more stable for this then the thin Stanley ones.

With my current set up, the job can be done without all of the work of making a specialty plane. Also my current stock on the those old irons is a total of three. My supply of the Stanley blades has multiple duplicates in most sizes.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

Well, it's a nice discovery. Next time I'll want a stopped groove I'll give it a try.

[David Keller NC]

Jim - This is very interesting. It's basically the same as using a router plane with a fence. I use the router plane with a fence to cut both stopped rebates and stopped grooves - I find it much faster and easier than using a plow as Chris Schwartz demoed in a video a while back.

Of course, our clever ancestors probably thought "I need a plow anyway, why buy another tool (the router plane) when I can just modify the plow to do both jobs?"

[Jim Koepke]

I find it much faster and easier than using a plow as Chris Schwartz demoed in a video a while back.

I didn't see the video. He did have something on his blog. That didn't go into making stopped cuts.

Don't forget, the Stanley 45 has beading blades and fluting blades available. With a little work, one could do some very decorative layouts with a few beads or flutes of different lengths on a panel.

jtk

[george wilson]

For what it's worth,Brazilian rosewood proved to be a poor wearing wood when used to repair a too wide plane throat,especially in cooper's jointers,which are likely the hardest used plane throats around the museum. Since the staves are convex,that hard white oak is always bearing on the throat. Boxwood is a LOT better. Brass even more so. A lot of old timers used rosewood,but I think they might not have been aware of the wearability of rosewood. Likely,too,rosewood was more available than large boxwood years ago to the average workman. I could buy Braz. Rosewood for $2.00 per bd. ft. when I was in college in the early 60's,but not boxwood. It cost the same as mahogany at the time. If only we could see into the future!! Still have some quartered rosewood I bought way back then,and I used mostly rosewood for guitars in the 60's.

[David Keller NC]

I didn't see the video. He did have something on his blog. That didn't go into making stopped cuts.

Don't forget, the Stanley 45 has beading blades and fluting blades available. With a little work, one could do some very decorative layouts with a few beads or flutes of different lengths on a panel.

jtk

The basics to making a stopped groove with a plow is to drill a hole at the terminus of the groove, then using a plow to hog out the waste. The problem with this method (as I see it) is that you wind up with a groove with a sloping bottom at the beginning that must then be brought to the correct depth with a chisel or a router plane.

Using lee valley's modern incarnation of the router plane, one can make the same stopped groove by drilling a hole at the correct depth at the beginning of the groove, then making successive passes with the plane, setting the blade projection a little lower with each pass. With L-V's design, this is really easy. The only advantage that I can see to the plow technique that Chris demoed is that one doesn't need to adjust the blade's depth with pass.

Of course, what you've described (cutting a stopped rebate rather than a stopped groove) doesn't leave a sloped beginning to the cut, though I would think it would require lowering the blade with each pass as with a router plane or a #66.

Interesting idea - time to go spend a rainy New Year's Day in the shop making a new fence do my #55.

[Jim Koepke]

The basics to making a stopped groove with a plow is to drill a hole at the terminus of the groove, then using a plow to hog out the waste. The problem with this method (as I see it) is that you wind up with a groove with a sloping bottom at the beginning that must then be brought to the correct depth with a chisel or a router plane.

With this method the hole drilled a the terminus must be able to accompany the full length of the plane in front of the blade.


Using lee valley's modern incarnation of the router plane, one can make the same stopped groove by drilling a hole at the correct depth at the beginning of the groove, then making successive passes with the plane, setting the blade projection a little lower with each pass. With L-V's design, this is really easy. The only advantage that I can see to the plow technique that Chris demoed is that one doesn't need to adjust the blade's depth with pass.

The technique that Chris Schwarz demonstrated is basic use of the plow plane with the plowing being through the work piece at both ends.


Of course, what you've described (cutting a stopped rebate rather than a stopped groove) doesn't leave a sloped beginning to the cut, though I would think it would require lowering the blade with each pass as with a router plane or a #66.

Interesting idea - time to go spend a rainy New Year's Day in the shop making a new fence do my #55.

Yes, what may be my rediscovery of an old method does require lowering the blade on each pass.

jtk

[David Keller NC]

With this method the hole drilled a the terminus must be able to accompany the full length of the plane in front of the blade.

The technique that Chris Schwarz demonstrated is basic use of the plow plane with the plowing being through the work piece at both ends.


Actually, no - he did a video on making stopped grooves with a plow. And no, the hole drilled at the end didn't accomodate the full length of the front skate. The groove that resulted had me less than convinced. I'll try to find the video clip if I can, but Chris has written so much that's sometimes quite a challenge.

That's partly why I started doing all of my stopped grooves with a fenced router plane - there's little to no clean-up required at the end. It works quite well as long as the groove is close enough to the edge of the board to be reachable with the router plane and the groove is no wider than one's widest router plane blade.

The method you discovered doesn't have quite as much dimensional restrictions as the router plane, so I'm halfway finished making a replacement fence for my #55 or of some leftover bloodwood. :)

BTW - Bloodwood is cheap, incredibly hard and dense, but ironically works well with hand tools - worth having some scraps of this wood if one's making tools on a regular basis.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

BTW - Bloodwood is cheap, incredibly hard and dense, but ironically works well with hand tools - worth having some scraps of this wood if one's making tools on a regular basis.


I heartily agree! I've used a bit of it in guitars, and it works quite well by hand, and seems better behaved and less rough on edges than other "exotic" woods, and the dust is less of an irritant for me than other "exotic" woods. (I put exotic in quotes, because I have no idea where the stuff is from or if it's rare, that's simply the section they have it in at my local wood dealers.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Actually, no - he did a video on making stopped grooves with a plow. And no, the hole drilled at the end didn't accomodate the full length of the front skate. The groove that resulted had me less than convinced. I'll try to find the video clip if I can, but Chris has written so much that's sometimes quite a challenge.

Is this video from 2008 (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/video/stopped_grooves_video) the one you're thinking of, David? The close up at the end certainly shows you the "nice" side of the groove - just before the camera cut it looks like the other end isn't as nice.


The few stopped grooves I've done, I've just wasted away enough with a mortise chisel at the ends to accommodate the skate of my plane. It hasn't always been pretty.

[Jim Koepke]

Is this video from 2008

Thanks for posting that Joshua. It does work well with the smaller plane.

Like so many things in woodworking, there are many ways to get the same result.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I never realized until I went hunting for the video David mentioned just how small those record plow planes actually were!

[Jim Koepke]

I never realized until I went hunting for the video David mentioned just how small those record plow planes actually were!

They look to be smaller than a #50.

Being a lover of planes, my thoughts are to find one for my shop. SWMBO might not see it the same way.

jtk

[David Keller NC]

Is this video from 2008 (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/video/stopped_grooves_video) the one you're thinking of, David? The close up at the end certainly shows you the "nice" side of the groove - just before the camera cut it looks like the other end isn't as nice.

Yep, that's it. The realization I had after trying this a couple of times is that with the L-V full-size router plane, there's really no reason to bother with the plow plane. One simply sets the ultimate depth of the groove with the stop on the plane, then simply give the depth-adjustment knob a slight twist with every stroke. The result is, in my view, equivalent to the plow/router plane method illustrated by Chris, and the whole operation can be done with one plane.

Interestingly, Jeff Headley posted a photo on the SAPFM forum of the interior of an antique chest that he was restoring that showed the inside groove of one of the drawer dividers. That inside groove was sloped so that the middle was deep, and the two ends were shallow, exactly as one would expect if the groove were made solely with a plow plane. The tenons of the drawer guides were cut so that they would fit into this groove with graduated depth.

[Jim Koepke]

Just an update on this.

My rediscovery has been submitted for publication.

To answer Kees question about where do the skates go... The depth stops can be set below the skates. In my case a piece of metal was used for a shim, ~0.030. This allows the plane to be used for the full length of a rabbet.

Even more fun, attaching a piece of scrap to the front and slitter depth stops to ride against a batten makes it possible to make a stopped cut anywhere on the face of a board one wants it. The cam rest works well with this. Makes me wonder if this was one of the ways the plane was originally meant to be used but never put in the instructions.

Since one of my near future projects is another book shelf, it was only natural to give this a try at stopped dados. It worked very well for my first attempt.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

This reply should have been made awhile ago.

My final discovery was to set the depth stops so the skates are above the cut. My method was to set an 0.030" shim/feeler gauge beneath the skates and lower the regular and slitting depth stop. I also made a side sole using an auxiliary stop and a slitting stop. This allows for use against a batten and makes the plane more stable when using with a fence.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

There is a current post that asked about making stopped cuts which brought me to searching for and reviewing this old post.

One comment caught my eye:


Interesting idea - time to go spend a rainy New Year's Day in the shop making a new fence do my #55.

The Stanley #55 instructions actually mention a similar technique for working a corner:

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The difference using a #45 is you need to check to insure the blade doesn't slip out of position.

David, did you ever put that #55 to use?

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Show off :)

[steven c newman]

Try one of these...:eek:
402232402233

[Jerry Olexa]

Interesting thread Jim...Thanks

[Mike Cornwall]

This would work with a 46, right? I’m new to old hand tools, just using what comes my way, I think the 46 is more or less the same but skewed?

[lowell holmes]

I just went to the shop and sanded the rust off my planes and coated them with Johnson's floor wax.
I think you need to do the same. :)

[Jim Koepke]

This would work with a 46, right? I’m new to old hand tools, just using what comes my way, I think the 46 is more or less the same but skewed?

It might be possible with the #46, only there isn't an depth adjustment on the #46. That would likely make it a bit more difficult.

jtk

[Mike Cornwall]

Maybe this should be a separate thread. My 46 has the detachable fence on the sliding section, but also has a 45 fence. Am I right in thinking the metal fence extension comes off the sliding section and I use the 45 fence?

I think my 46 is a type 6 but this is all from a big box of oldtimer stuff I just ended up with and eventually got curious.

https://i.ibb.co/jyQPVQd/6911-FDB4-F2-D5-4128-9-C19-E45-B61-DA6-A14.jpg (https://ibb.co/jyQPVQd) https://i.ibb.co/q7vZySB/F1-BA9-DBF-6-DAA-465-C-9-BB1-019974-CC7-BA1.jpg (https://ibb.co/q7vZySB) https://i.ibb.co/8sMJgZH/604-B9686-78-A5-4699-89-D2-4650-D5-F3988-F.jpg (https://ibb.co/8sMJgZH)

[Jim Koepke]

This must have slipped by me. The spacing of the rods is different on all of the Stanley multi-planes.

jtk