Bookcase Help

[Chris McLeester]

So, I have been practicing with my router and think I'm ready to try to make something for real. I was thinking of making this bookcase.

http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TFH/Step-By-Step/FH11NOV_BOOKCA_13.JPG

As you can see, it uses biscuits. I was planning on using dados for the shelves instead (I have a router that I really want to try out -- and no biscuit joiner).

I am lost as to how to attach the bottom and top shelves. I can't rout a dado for them since they sit flush with the sides.

For the bottom, I thought of two choices:

1. pocket screws
2. putting a dado an inch or so up from the bottom (and letting the legs cover the sides)

For the top, I could again use pocket screws. But I was wondering about putting a dado a quarter inch down for the shelf and then slipping the top over top of it with a stopped dado (1/4 deep). Do you think that would work? Would it be bad to have the two surfaces against each other like that?

Is there some simple solution I'm missing (other than buying a joiner)? I was planning on attaching the legs with pocket screws.

I don't think it matters, but I'm making the bookcase larger than these plans (wider, taller, and deeper). The top will be edge glued.

Any suggestions are much appreciated.

[Sam Murdoch]

When I use a a router for this type of work I don't use a dado the full height of my horizontal pieces. For 3/4" top, bottoms and shelves I will dado a 1/2" or 3/8" slot in my sides. This allows me to compensate for any irregularities in the thickness of my material especially when I am building with plywood and it also solves the problem to your question.

My side slot is set at the exact height that locates the top of the shelves and the bottom pieces. However for the very top I just flip this upside down - the slot in the side is cut to match the very bottom of my top piece so 1/4" down from the top of the sides. This allows a top and bottom flush with the sides. I make my dados first with a router bit and then I cut the tenons on the horizontals to fit my dado. These I usually cut with the table saw but the router and the right sled will work too.

You could eliminate the inside top as shown in the drawing but I like that an interior top maintains the exact width of the unit and gives the top of the cabinet a thicker detail. Then your outside (finished) top could be a more decorative wood. No problem having the 2 tops together. Just finish both independently if using solid wood. If your bookcase is plywood and the very top is solid you will need to finish both faces of the top and hold it to the subtop in such a way as to allow the top to move independently of the subtop.

I could sketch this on Sketch Up if I have not made myself clear but I need to get to my work computer for that so if you need more info I can do that later.

[Chris McLeester]

Sam--
This sounds promising. Probably a stupid question, but how do you make your horizontal pieces fit into the undersized slots? Thanks for the advice!

[John TenEyck]

Chris, no disrespect, but by the nature of your questions I think you would really benefit from one or two good books on cabinet making. Many folks like "Illustrated Cabinetmaking" by Bill Hylton. It will show you how to design and build cabinets and tables, which joints are used where, etc.

John

[Sam Murdoch]

In any event here is a simple illustration.

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[Chris McLeester]

John --
I am a decided amateur. I am used to construction and lumber. But I'm trying to learn. I will be buying some books, but I feel this project should be a good chance to develop some skills. Have any easy answers to my beginner questions?

[Chris McLeester]

Thanks, Sam. So it's kind of like a combination of a rabbet and a dado. That is what I was thinking of, but the picture makes it much clearer.

Do you use a rabbet bit to do that on the horizontal member?

[Stephen Cherry]

Here's a nice video for ideas. Also, a trip to the library would be in order.

[John TenEyck]

Chris, we all were amateurs once. I already gave you the easiest answer. It's all there for the reading. Here you will get some good advise and some not so good, even if the intention is good. What you will find in most well respected books are methods that have stood the test of time, and where and why they are used. Learning those methods and their application will get you way up the learning curve, and reduce the amount of lumber ruined and frustration along the way.

John

[keith micinski]

In any event here is a simple illustration.

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That bottom shelf isn't going to support anything other then itself built that way.

[keith micinski]

Rout a dado on the inside faces of the legs for the bottom piece. You can stop the dado underneath the side panel so you can't see it from the outside.

[Chris McLeester]

Just ordered the book on Amazon. I definitely want to learn more. But I often learn best by doing (and sometimes failing). Sam's method makes sense to me and I can't wait to try it. Thanks for the advice.

[Sam Murdoch]

That bottom shelf isn't going to support anything other then itself built that way.


Yes - and I know that too. Drawing out of context and trying to simplify and give quick answers is dangerous business. I would add a sub bottom fastened into the sides or a fully supporting base or set the bottom much higher. All the stuff we know. I would not build it that way or the way it was illustrated in the drawing that started the post for that matter. I don't build cabinetry that fails but I do sometimes give only partial advice with no proper editing until you all get involved. I'm embarrassed. Just goes to illustrate John's point.
Sorry to Chris.

[keith micinski]

Not trying to hassle you just wasn't sure if the original poster would know you we're just demonstrating and not actually showing a method you thought might actually work.

[Chris McLeester]

What is wrong with the bottom shelf? I would think the dado would hold it. Am I missing something obvious?

[keith micinski]

There is almost no material on the bottom side of the dado to hold anything up. If you built it hat way with the dado only having an 8th of an inch underneath of it the bottom would just blow out of the dado.

[Chris McLeester]

Thanks for all your help and thoughts. How is the bottom shelf any different than the middle one? Would that one blow out as well? I saw some examples like that in diagrams elsewhere.

Is there a name for a joint I should be using for the top and bottom? I can't find any examples that look like I wanted. Some call for locking rabbets and brads, but I don't want them visible.

And I have a few days off to try things out...

[Chris McLeester]

On page 147 of this book, they show a rabbet-dado combo similar to Sam's. If I understand, this is incorrect and should be flipped. That leaves the problem of making the bottom shelf. I didn't understand the suggestion by Keith to put a dado in the legs. The shelf isn't wide enough to reach the legs (which are on the outside).

http://books.google.com/books?id=dmClj9dTOZQC&pg=PA147&lpg=PA146&ots=1lMOk-BEYu&dq=tongue+dado+shelf&output=html_text

[glenn bradley]

I do pretty much as Sam shows. As discussed I move the bottom horizontal up to allow plenty of support from the side material. This adjustment also allows for a strip across the fron to add support and a decorative element to the bottom shelf.

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[Chris McLeester]

Oh, now I get why the bottom one is different! Thanks, Glenn! It is the side that needs to have the material below it. Duh.

Working with solid wood, how much do I need to let the sides extend past the bottom shelf? Is there a problem with the full width dadoes for the bottom or middle shelves?

[Sam Murdoch]

Is there a problem with the full width dadoes for the bottom or middle shelves?


Keep reading Chris - page 149 of your link describes the advantage of a rabbet and dado joint (my suggestion) over a simple housed dado (to your question). With respect, you are on the right track - asking questions and reading books then trying what you learn. We simply won't be able to walk you through all the steps and the reasons why on a forum such as this. Best to find a few good reference books as a guide towards building this project or another. Like all of us you will make mistakes and discover reasons why or new tricks on your own. Hopefully having fun in the process and avoiding injury. Once you get started, if you get stumped on a technique or other come back to Sawmill Creek and we'll try to walk you through it. Just think you've gone from 2 posts to 9 all in this one thread. You're a regular now.
$ 6.00 will make you a contributor then you can really impress your friends. :D

Good luck - happy woodworking.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Observations & comments.

1] I have made somewhere fewer than a jillion cases like this. But not too many fewer.

2] Sell the biscuit jointer. Sorry - not picking a fight, just saying. Unless you are heck-bent on stick-built face-frame kitchen cabinets. In which case - keep it, and then sell it, because after you do one of those you will not want to do another. DAMHIKT. I did mine, and then sold my biscuit jointer.

3] I use a 3/8" bit to route the dadoes in the sides - 3/8 " wide" x 3/8"deep - except I short the depth by 1/64" - 1/32" because these things have a tendency to bottom out in clamp-up. I have one of those sets that includes multible bearings, but you can get one dedicated to 3/8" [or whatever] for much less $. By rabbeting both faces of the shelves, I find I get a cleaner joint where it butts to the case side.

4] I use a rabbeting bit on the ends of the shelves. I take some off the top, and I take some off the bottom. Set up the router too shallow, route both faces, measure the results, and "sneak up" on the target dimension for the tenon. Always test-fit.

5] For the bottom shelf, I would make a slight adjustment to the plans. I would raise the bottom shelf up about 3/4" - 1" [or, lengthenthe sides that much to leave the same shelf spacing]. I would use the same dado-and-tenon method as above. And then, I would screw a cleat into the side and up into the shelf.

6] Your design has front and back stiles that also form the legs. All joinery will be hidden. In the future, if you make a version without the stiles - just case work - you have two options: "Stopped" or "Blind" dados- - easy to find in a google search. Or - I will use iron-on edging tape.

This is all very straight forward, and is an excellent project to execute to start developing your skills.

Be wary of over-driving your headlights. Easy for me to say from the cheap seats, but still.....straight-forward joinery. You will enjoy the process and results.

One of the very, very first things I made was similar to this - BORG birch ply. Now entering it's 17th year of service, holding up about $5,000 of textbook-grade publications on gardening and plants. Ain't the most stunning thing I have made, it it darn sure looks good,and works great.