Gel Stain Help, Please...

[Derek Arita]

I've been doing some tests looking for the right finish procedure for some red oak, to match typical yellowed oak kitchen cabinets. I got some GF Golden Pine Gel Stain to test. What I found is that using the stain straight from the can to the wood, the finish is too dark and too brown, however if I take the cloth with residual stain and rub that on, then it looks pretty good. Trying to duplicate that is really tough, as what works well, is when there's just a little left over stain on the cloth. Question is, can I thin the gel or lighten it in some way? By the way, I'm using GF Arm R Seal, oil and urethane top coat. I was originally thinking about spraying waterborne on this, but now I'm thinking wipe on might be simpler and more direct. First I have to learn how to use the sprayer, then I can think about using it on a project.
Here's what I'm trying to match...
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8916/img0605ji.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/img0605ji.jpg/)

[Troy Turner]

I don't see why it couldn't be done. Use some samples though vs. diluting the whole thing. Work in small batches and measure it out. Start with 1:1 and see what happens.

Would it be easier to get the liquid version of your stain? This way you could be guaranteed of the consistency in the color. I would hate for you to mix up a batch, run out, and try to mix up another batch trying to remember what you did before :confused:

[Derek Arita]

First, if I thin, then what do I thin the gel with? Second, someone said that if I just use the Arm R Seal alone, the finish will yellow in a year or so and likely match the rest...true?

[Robert LaPlaca]

I've been doing some tests looking for the right finish procedure for some red oak, to match typical yellowed oak kitchen cabinets. I got some GF Golden Pine Gel Stain to test. What I found is that using the stain straight from the can to the wood, the finish is too dark and too brown, however if I take the cloth with residual stain and rub that on, then it looks pretty good. Trying to duplicate that is really tough, as what works well, is when there's just a little left over stain on the cloth. Question is, can I thin the gel or lighten it in some way? By the way, I'm using GF Arm R Seal, oil and urethane top coat. I was originally thinking about spraying waterborne on this, but now I'm thinking wipe on might be simpler and more direct. First I have to learn how to use the sprayer, then I can think about using it on a project.
Here's what I'm trying to match...


Ok I understand this is another competitors finishing product, but the Bartley Gel stains were quite upfront about intermixing Bartley gel stain colors with each other including the non-colored gel varnish. You might want to experiment mixing the General Gel stain with the General Gel Varish product on some scraps to see if gives you the desired result..

[John TenEyck]

Those doors look like they were sprayed with lacquer that has yellowed a little over the years, yes? A lot like these:

248640

The I made the open shelf cabinet on both sides to match the cabinets in the center. I was able to get an almost perfect match by spraying two coats of Sealcoat Shellac cut 50% with DNA, scuff sanding, and then spraying two or three coats of GF's Hi Perf. Poly Satin.

I would forget the gel stain approach and try Sealcoat shellac under a WB topcoat. If required, you can adjust the tone of the Sealcoat, or the topcoat by adding Transtint dye to it. Honey Amber would be the first one I'd try if the Sealcoat + topcoat isn't quite dark enough or yellow enough.

John

[Derek Arita]

Those doors look like they were sprayed with lacquer that has yellowed a little over the years, yes? A lot like these:

248640

The I made the open shelf cabinet on both sides to match the cabinets in the center. I was able to get an almost perfect match by spraying two coats of Sealcoat Shellac cut 50% with DNA, scuff sanding, and then spraying two or three coats of GF's Hi Perf. Poly Satin.

I would forget the gel stain approach and try Sealcoat shellac under a WB topcoat. If required, you can adjust the tone of the Sealcoat, or the topcoat by adding Transtint dye to it. Honey Amber would be the first one I'd try if the Sealcoat + topcoat isn't quite dark enough or yellow enough.

John
Yeah...that looks exactly like what I have. I wanted to avoid spraying, as I have never used my HVLP to date, but it looks like I'll have to start practicing with it now. Thanks for the procedure. I'll let you know how it goes.

[John TenEyck]

Yeah...that looks exactly like what I have. I wanted to avoid spraying, as I have never used my HVLP to date, but it looks like I'll have to start practicing with it now. Thanks for the procedure. I'll let you know how it goes.

Derek, spraying is not a requirement, it just makes it easier, especially with shellac. That said, it's really not very hard to brush Sealcoat cut 50% with DNA, which is a 1 lb cut. It's not nearly as difficult as trying to brush 2 or 3 lb cut. And you're not really trying to build a film as much as you are adjusting the color. If I were to brush it I'd use a good china brush around 2-1/2" wide. Use straight DNA with the first coat, also the second if you are confident. If not, use Behlen's Behkol alcohol instead of DNA, which will give you more open time. In any case, with the second coat brush it on as uniformly as you can and don't go over it. Again, you are after color more than a perfect film. When that's dry, scuff sand it lightly with 320 grit - I like Norton foam pads more than sandpaper for this, but either will work. Then brush on your WB topcoat with a foam brush, scuff sanding between coats.

John

[Derek Arita]

Derek, spraying is not a requirement, it just makes it easier, especially with shellac. That said, it's really not very hard to brush Sealcoat cut 50% with DNA, which is a 1 lb cut. It's not nearly as difficult as trying to brush 2 or 3 lb cut. And you're not really trying to build a film as much as you are adjusting the color. If I were to brush it I'd use a good china brush around 2-1/2" wide. Use straight DNA with the first coat, also the second if you are confident. If not, use Behlen's Behkol alcohol instead of DNA, which will give you more open time. In any case, with the second coat brush it on as uniformly as you can and don't go over it. Again, you are after color more than a perfect film. When that's dry, scuff sand it lightly with 320 grit - I like Norton foam pads more than sandpaper for this, but either will work. Then brush on your WB topcoat with a foam brush, scuff sanding between coats.

John
John, so Sealcoat Sanding Sealer is the shellac you're referring to? I just looked it up and it didn't say shellac anywhere, so I wanted to be sure.

[John TenEyck]

John, so Sealcoat Sanding Sealer is the shellac you're referring to? I just looked it up and it didn't say shellac anywhere, so I wanted to be sure.

Hi Derek, Yes, that's the stuff. Wonder why it doesn't say it's shellac on the can? Well, it is, and it does on their website: http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=246. I didn't know Zinnser was owned by Rustoleum 'till I went looking for it. Anyway, Sealcoat IS shellac; it's a 2 pound cut, meaning 2 lbs of shellac are dissolved in a gallon of denatured alcohol. Also, it's dewaxed, which is important for adhesion of topcoats.

John

[Scott Holmes]

The can says 100% wax free shellac White letters on a red background just below the brush on the label.

[Derek Arita]

Yeah...I'm really seeing that it is an art and a science. I've avoided it for a long time, but I find that it's finally time for me to start learning. I have two good HVLP units and have never even opened the boxes. Just in my initial trials of gel stains, I'm discovering the subtleties in application. Waterborne, oil based, lacquer...geez! Wish I had a mentor/teacher close by...a patient one...