Milling Kitchen Cabinet Lumber

[Paul Shaffer]

Well, its just about time to get the lumber (cherry) for the kitchen cabinets so that it can acclimate for a few weeks over the holidays and I can start building in late January. I went up to Highland Hardwoods, I have always had good luck with them in the past, and they are having a cherry sale. But the stock was picked over pretty heavily and there was an enormous amount of sapwood. Sapwood is not an option, as these will be natural finish. Talking to my client (aka my wife), she has ok'd spending good money on the lumber, as it would be folly to spend $5,000 on appliances and save $500 on the wood and have it look sub-par. I think I will order from Irion in PA. The price is very similar to retail around here and the shipping is actually quite reasonable. The only concern I have is about milling ~200 bdft of material on a 6" jointer and an older 12" delta lunchbox planer (aka the snipe machine). I can't even wrap my head around the logistics of milling that much wood. Normally, I lay out all the pieces, rough cut the parts and mill them up. But, I can't imagine you lay out individual pieces of a kitchen, as the face frames alone have 104 pieces on the cut list. I imagine you mill it all to 3/4" and then rip your 200 linear ft of 1 1/2" material for the face frames and chop it up from there. So I am looking for encouragement and/or advice. Anyone that has done this in a hobby shop and can offer some 20/20 hindsight on mistakes or tricks would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Cheers and Merry Christmas,
Paul

[Todd Burch]

With big loads of lumber, even though I have a nice wide planer and jointer, I still will order stock (for jobs like this) S3S at 13/16" thick. I will then do the jointing and planing finish passes myself.

I tailgate pieces through my planer to avoid snipe on all but the first last pieces (when I am getting snipe, that is). Keep your planer's bed waxed good. I send them through long and then cut to length from long strips. I don't cut them up into pieces first.

The hassle isn't so much milling or assembling, it's the finishing that takes up all the room!

Todd

[Robert LaPlaca]

Greetings Paul,

You could do a lot worse then buying from Irion, Irion has spectacular lumber, the latest order of Mahogany I bought was stunning.. Myron (the yard manager) is the best..

As far as milling the lumber, I think you will find it a mistake if you mill all the lumber to finial thickness, then proceed to rip it to the width of the rails and stiles.. Even with properly dried lumber like you will get from Irion, ripping a 8 inch wide piece of lumber to 1 1/2 wide widths will release tension in the lumber.

Always best to mill the lumber to 1/8 inch over size, let it rest a bit (a couple of days are good) and then mill it to final dimensions.

Best of luck

[Don Jarvie]

I agree that the lunch box isn't going to cut it so you can by milled lumber and you can skip the milling part which may save you some aggravation and time or see how much the difference is between the milled and rough wood and see if you can talk the client into a planer. A planer at Grizzly is 945.00 and I realize the difference in the wood isn't that much but if you are going to use rough lumber in the future it may be a worthy investment. Also even with the planer the cabinets you are making are much cheaper than the store bought ones.

[Paul Shaffer]

Robert and Todd, Thanks for the advice already.
Todd, I have never tried tailgating pieces through the planer (although read about it here often) because I have done smaller pieces of furniture and just rough cut all my stuff 6 inches long, knowing that the first and last 3 inches will be lost to snipe. But with hundreds of pieces, that amount of loss is not an option. Does tailgating actually work? As far as getting 13/16" stock, I have 120 bdft of that sitting around and have thought about getting a bit more to make enough for the kitchen. I could even finish surfacing it with a drum sander (which I will conveniently have to purchase ;)). But the quality is "good", not great, like I would expect from Irion. Ideally, Irion would surface it to 13/16, but that is not an option. So I think I am stuck with 4/4 rough. As far as finishing, I have planned 4-6 months to complete the project, figuring several months will be spent on finishing. I can break that down into smaller "batches", but with the construction, I want to do all the face frames, doors, boxes, etc... the same time so I only set up the equipment for each operation once, get it dialed in and make all the pieces.

Robert, I have never heard a bad word about Irion and Myron has been phenomenal on the phone and email. Should I mill to ~7/8, then rough out the parts, let it rest and then final dimension? In the past, I mill to rough dimensions (~13/16, 1/2 inch over sized on length, width), let it sit around a bit and then finish it up. Or if I am making drawers or casework, I mill it up and use it immediately, figuring the design of the joinery will hold things square and this has worked well. The problem I see with that technique here is the shear number of pieces. I guess I am asking for a more specific order of work for your suggestion. I definitely don't want to cut up an enormous load of nice cherry and come back in the morning and have a bunch of tomato stakes.
Thanks again.

[Mel Fulks]

On that type of job I get out all the widest and longest pieces first,if you then encounter defects or if they are not straight enuf to use I cut them into smaller required pieces .Then replace the big pieces. The 1 and 1/2 inch stuff,same thing ,rip to rough widths first. Pick straightest pieces to be the longest required parts ,if you are not happy with them,"demote them"
to shorter pieces .Real short pcs should be cut from drop from longer pieces. Many variations are possible ,experienced
guys won't cut exactly the same way,except in principle. None will cut a bunch of short parts to rough length first.

[Mel Fulks]

P.S. One other thing you can do is try to put the darker pieces closer to the floor ,and the lighter pieces higher up.Makes finishing a little easier ,as the eye is more forgiving of that than the other way around . Hard to get by with a dark piece
right above a light piece.

[Michael W. Clark]

Good advice above. I just built some wetbar cabinets, not as many as a kitchen full, but here are some things I would consider next time.

1. I would not face joint or edge joint any of the FF material. I would face joint all the pieces for the doors and applied drawer fronts, though. As you said, the joinery of the FF to the cabinets will pull them flat and the drawer boxes are pretty forgiving too.
2. I would recommend sanding the edges of the FF parts before assembly.
3. I would also recommend building the FFs first, then move on to doors and drawer fronts, boxes last.
4. As Mel said, pick your stock and rough out the biggest pieces first from the best boards. The smaller pieces can be gotten from smaller boards "scraps" from the big pieces.
5. Make some extra stock for the FF and door rails and stiles. If you are like me, you will need them.:)
6. Get all the hardware first before cutting the first board. Drawer slides, hinges, pulls, etc. Pre-drill mounting holes as much as possible. There was a thread not to long ago about applying drawer fronts and some interesting hardware that allowed adjustability during installation.
7. Get a spray gun and learn how to use it on the cabinet backs.

Mike

[Robert LaPlaca]

Robert and Todd, Thanks for the advice already.
Todd, I have never tried tailgating pieces through the planer (although read about it here often) because I have done smaller pieces of furniture and just rough cut all my stuff 6 inches long, knowing that the first and last 3 inches will be lost to snipe. But with hundreds of pieces, that amount of loss is not an option. Does tailgating actually work? As far as getting 13/16" stock, I have 120 bdft of that sitting around and have thought about getting a bit more to make enough for the kitchen. I could even finish surfacing it with a drum sander (which I will conveniently have to purchase ;)). But the quality is "good", not great, like I would expect from Irion. Ideally, Irion would surface it to 13/16, but that is not an option. So I think I am stuck with 4/4 rough. As far as finishing, I have planned 4-6 months to complete the project, figuring several months will be spent on finishing. I can break that down into smaller "batches", but with the construction, I want to do all the face frames, doors, boxes, etc... the same time so I only set up the equipment for each operation once, get it dialed in and make all the pieces.

Robert, I have never heard a bad word about Irion and Myron has been phenomenal on the phone and email. Should I mill to ~7/8, then rough out the parts, let it rest and then final dimension? In the past, I mill to rough dimensions (~13/16, 1/2 inch over sized on length, width), let it sit around a bit and then finish it up. Or if I am making drawers or casework, I mill it up and use it immediately, figuring the design of the joinery will hold things square and this has worked well. The problem I see with that technique here is the shear number of pieces. I guess I am asking for a more specific order of work for your suggestion. I definitely don't want to cut up an enormous load of nice cherry and come back in the morning and have a bunch of tomato stakes.
Thanks again.


Paul,

I build 18th century period furniture, I typically rough mill all the stock for say the case, let it rest for a couple of days, then run all the like thickness pieces in one batch. I would defer to those posters more familiar with building kitchen cabinets than i, but my guess is that a similar approach is followed, in that all the face frame stock could be batched, then all the door stiles and rails, then the raised panels, this would break up the processing of the lumber into more manageable chucks..

Good luck..

[Paul Shaffer]

A little more information might be helpful here. First, the boxes are going to be CNC'd by Hall's Edge out of prefinished ply, so basically RTA. All mounting holes predrilled, etc.. No finishing, so no practicing. Second, I built a full 15" base cabinet as practice, with all the hardware I will use in the kitchen to make sure I knew how to install it. Went well and definitely worth the practice. Third, Irion mentioned they have ~6" wide cherry stock that is popular as FF and rail/stile material and I will order and use it as such. I am then getting a matched set of cherry from a single log for the panels in the doors. I will definitely follow the advice above and pick the biggest/most prominent pieces first. Lastly, I have already budgeted for an Earlex 5500 spray unit. I used General Finishes Pre-Cat Urethane on the practice cabinet and really liked it (more importantly, so did the client). It brushed well, but I think I will get the sprayer.
Michael, what do you mean by not face jointing or edge jointing the FF material? How do you get it flat and square? The order of assembly for the practice is exactly the order you described and worked well. I need ~137 bdft of stock, I am ordering >175. Definitely will have extra for mistakes and test pieces for machinery/joinery set up.
Mel, I had never read that about the darker pieces on the bottom, but will definitely heed your advice. And I like your idea of ripping up the FF and rails/stiles stock, letting it settle and then picking the straightest pieces for the longest ones. Fortunately in the kitchen, I have exactly 2 pieces that are longer than 3 foot. (No pantry/tall cabinets).

[scott vroom]

Paul, lots of good advice above....I'll add my 2 cents worth.

The lunchbox planer is adequate for the task....no need to invest in big iron unless you believe you'll need one in the future.

As at least one poster suggested, try to find S2S1E (one edge straight lined). It's typically 13/16 from the mill...then all you need to plane is the 1/16.


I rip all my FF and door stile/rail stock to 1/4" o'size to allow for some movement, which I then fix on the jointer. If you find that your ripped stock remains straight, then reduce the oversize rips to 1/8"....fewer passes on the jointer.

I crosscut all stock to rough length before edge jointing.....smaller "frowns" are easier to joint, and less wasteful.

You definately want to batch your stock to run through the planer, to make sure your FF, stile/rail stock are identical thickness when assembled. This will save considerable time later when sanding.

It sounds like you're thinking ahead...all that planning will produce a better product.

[Todd Burch]

I rarely cut oversize, let rest, (for movement, whatever) and then trim to size. Matter of fact, I never do it intentionally. Sometimes I do my long cuts as the last thing in the day before closing shop, but even then I will stack and cover. (Oh, I never stack and leave uncovered for any amount of time).

If a piece goes wonker after being ripped, it gets set aside for shorty pieces. If it's straight after being ripped, it's good enough for me. I tolerate more instability in face frame stock than anything else, as it can be "tweaked" as it is attached to the box.

Todd

[Stephen Cherry]

One idea would be to order pre-made doors, or sub out the doors and face frames to a local shop.

[Mark Wooden]

If you want to do a premium job with the least amount of hassle, your material has to be flat, square and straight. Including face frames. Get your material, spread it out and pick what pieces will go where. This way you can cut adjoining stiles and stacked rails from the same piece, panels from your sequenced stock and color/grain match other ff elements. Write on the face of the stock in pencil. Rough it all out and then write what the part is on the end grain in dark pencil. Flatten, joint an edge square, thickness plane as heavy as you can get it- 1/16" over will give you two finish passes. Stack it for a while to acclimate, times vary with location,time of year, etc. Then do your final jointing, sizing, milling etc. And like said above, do similar stock together
I usually rough rip, crosscut and then stack, most moisture transfer happens in end grain anyway
Mel, I guess I'm the exception- I do rough out down to 30" (and under) in length, easier to get flat and straight and it's lighter for my old back.;-)

[Sam Murdoch]

On that type of job I get out all the widest and longest pieces first,if you then encounter defects or if they are not straight enuf to use I cut them into smaller required pieces .Then replace the big pieces. The 1 and 1/2 inch stuff,same thing ,rip to rough widths first. Pick straightest pieces to be the longest required parts ,if you are not happy with them,"demote them"
to shorter pieces .Real short pcs should be cut from drop from longer pieces. Many variations are possible ,experienced
guys won't cut exactly the same way,except in principle. None will cut a bunch of short parts to rough length first.

Just as Mel says. Even for 200 bd ft and a big stack of kitchen cabinet parts you want to too cull your stock for straightest and widest that you will need and work your way through the pile. One way to have a mess of kitchen parts is to just commence to ripping 1-1/2" stock off the pile etc. etc. When I'm getting to determining my door parts I usually will double the lengths of my rails (usually the shortest parts I will need) + 4" to 6" and process those through the jointer, saw, thickness planer.

My general way of working though is to get all my pieces to pretty much the length I need (again + 4" to 6") in order to make the best use of the jointer. You can create a lot of waste jointing a 7' board when 2 at 3' will do the same. Seems like more work but that is not the case. And as Mel and others have written allow extra width as you begin ripping. Finally, a long piece can always be "demoted" to a useful short piece or two, but a short piece cut wrong or gone twisty is just kindling.

Oh, and in order to keep track of all your parts - assuming you are staring with a rough cuts parts list - add a letter to each size in your parts list and then as you determine that piece (or pieces) write the corresponding letter on the end of your board(s). As your list gets refined to a final cut list you would have new letters or letter number combos. Just my way - but it keeps me thinking clearly.

[Michael W. Clark]

Michael, what do you mean by not face jointing or edge jointing the FF material? How do you get it flat and square? The order of assembly for the practice is exactly the order you described and worked well. I need ~137 bdft of stock, I am ordering >175. Definitely will have extra for mistakes and test pieces for machinery/joinery set up.

As Todd said, the FF material is narrow and can/will be pulled into submission when you assemble it and attach it to the cabinet. Now, if the boards are crazy twisted or crowned, then I would find another use for them but I'm referring to lumber that it reasonably straight and flat. I plane one side "flat" on the thickness planer taking light passes so as not to compress the board too much. Once I get a full cut across the one face, then I flip it over and make the other side parrallel. Sometimse I will joint on the jointer or use the bandsaw to get an edge straight before going to the tablesaw. If you suspect/see wood movement, you can rip a little over width, then do a clean up pass. This is not a bad idea for cherry in general as it tends to burn and can take a lot of sanding to remove it.

When I'm building furniture I do face joint most everything as the typical approach is described. I just don't find it necessary on FF for cabinets, IMO. I used a Delta 22-580 lunchbox planer to plain down 100 bf of cherry and have just used it for 200bf of hard maple. Start with good/new knives and use the slow feed setting for the final passes.

Mike

[Mike Goetzke]

I just completed a kitchen/house remodel a few months ago. I had tear down and rough construction and did all the work myself, but, took 2-years. I'm a hobbyist who works out of a garage shop so had to plan out things well. Part of the remodel was building an entrance door. I made the door with a 6" jointer and lunch box planer. This was quite a challenge so I decided to get an 8" jointer and 15" planer with spiral heads for the kitchen. This was well worth the money. Something else you should do is build yourself a drying rack - it is useful for storing the lumber. When I milled the lumber I used two of those furniture movers (carts w/casters). I used Cabinet Planner to design the cabinets and CutList free. Since wood will move I cut the rough sawn lumber to rough size in most cases with my track saw before milling to reduce movement. I did have some tall doors that I worried about but I left the frame pieces thick and oversized and let them sit a week after milling them and milled them a second time. I can go on and on but I made maybe 10-15 doors at a time through top coating and then did the next batch. PM me if you have any questions. (everyone should work a job like this - I learned soo much about planning for efficiency, learned many skills, and did things I thought I would never be able to do)

Mike


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[Sam Murdoch]

Nice Mike. You climbed the mountain and saw the view with this one. Now that you've got the equipment and the fresh memory of how to go about it, best to do another project soon :). Looks great.

[Mike Goetzke]

Nice Mike. You climbed the mountain and saw the view with this one. Now that you've got the equipment and the fresh memory of how to go about it, best to do another project soon :). Looks great.

Thanks - only problem is (didn't want to mention it) I did get burned out. Didn't want to even want to think about what to build next. But, now that a few months have passed I've been cleaning up the shop and getting ready to build a new router table.

Mike