Specific CV1800/Oneida SDG questions...

[Michael Koons]

Guys,

I've read all the posts on the DC systems and wanted the opinions of owners, especially of the Clear Vue unit. I know there have been a lot of comments but many of the relative threads I read were 3 or 4 years old and timing is a critical part of my question below.

I'll give you my thinking just so you know where I'm coming from.

I live at 6,000' above sea level, moving to 10,000' in a few years. This actually has an impact on this decision because it moved me from a V-3000 to a 3 HP Super Dust Gorilla as airflow is impacted. It seems to me that I will be safe with the CV1800 because of the 5 HP motor and 15" impeller.

I like the construction of the Oneida better but it is $300 more and on a 4-5 week back order and I'd prefer not to wait for a system as I have the time to install it now or in a few weeks.

My concern with the CV is the DIY aspect and the overall durability. The DIY part scares me, not because of the assembly, but I'm concerned I could mess up the balance of the impeller or some other critical component. I'm also concerned about longevity. I'm to the point where when I do buy tools for the shop, I want that tool to be the last one of those types I ever buy. I will pay for quality and longevity if I feel it's worth it.

So my question to CV owners out there is... How's the longevity of your units? Are you comfortable your unit will last you 10, 20 or more years? I don't have this concern about Oneida just because of the nature of the construction and quality of the parts. But I don't want to waste the $300 that could go towards my ductwork either.

Any comments either way are appreciated.

[David Kumm]

I'll let owners of CV speak to durability but keep a couple of things in mind. The altitude correction factor at 10000 ft is about 1.5. If your V system pulled 840 cfm at 7.4" sp and you want the same flow at 10000 ft you need a blower capable of 840 at 11.1 or so. It takes the 5 hp high vac to get you there and likely the CV max with the 16" blower. I didn't do the math so I might be wrong but get a correction table and verify. The motor will probably end up oversized given the thin air but altitude can also mean special insulation to extra size might be needed. I'd ask specifically about the altitude for both the motor and flow with whoever you purchase the system from. Dave

[Mark Kornell]

I have a CVMAX - same motor as the CV1800, just a slightly larger cyclone unit and impeller, giving a bit more CFM. The DIY aspect of the install was not an issue - the parts are designed to line up properly, and as the impeller attaches directly to the motor shaft, you can't get it out of balance. And there's no way to assemble so there's interference.

In terms of assembly, I was able to assemble it without help. Took about 4 hours, including building the brackets. Might have been a bit easier with an assistant when mounting the motor, but not critical.

There's a massive amount of torque when that 5 hp motor starts up (any 5 hp motor, really), so I'm considering adding some extra bracing. Hasn't been an issue so far, but I'd like to ensure that continues to not be a problem.

The unit is only 2 months old so I can't comment on longevity, but I don't foresee an issue. The PTEG is tough stuff - takes impact and won't abrade away over time. Won't rust, either, so may outlive a steel unit. Long term UV degrade isn't a factor as my unit is inside.

[Ralph Butts]

Hi Michael, I have only had my CV1800 just about 2 years now and it said in my garage for a year before I assembled (partially) it and hung it on the wall. Assembly is not bad, I did take the easy way out since I am local to ClearVue and had them put together as much of the unit as possible and transported those sub assemblies in my truck. I am in the process of moving so I am now disassembling and re-installing in my new shop as time allows around work, the holidays and moving into a new home. As for longevity the machine designa and manufacturing is well thought out in my opinion. I can't see you having a problem with the balance of the impellar agreeing with Mark's noted points. I do not see any reason I should not have this machine for 10-20 or more years using it for the purpose it is intended. I purchased my cyclone with the same objective as you in mind. I did not intend to have to purchase another cyclone again. I have not been disappointed to date.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I will respond concerning the Oneida 3 HP Super Dust Gorilla. I have one. I installed the thing by myself EXCEPT I got help when it came time to put the motor and fan assembly on the rest of the unit. It didn't take long to assemble the entire unit......just a few hours.

If you feel their is a quality difference (I'd recommend you see both before making your decision) then waiting 4-5 weeks and paying $300 more is worth it. Again....I'd advise looking at both with your own two eyes. I'd also talk with engineers at both companies to see what they would recommend for the elevations you are expecting to use the machine. In a once in a lifetime purchase, I would research it completely so there would be no chance for buyers remorse in the future.

I use mine regularly with no problems and the quality is there.

[Jim Neeley]

Michael,

I'll throw in my $0.02 here.. I purchased a CV1800 but with the larger 16" impeller that normally comes on the CVMax, after talking with Bill Pentz. I did it for additional air; if I were moving to 10,000 ft I'd do it to mitigate the impact of the thin air.

YMMV..

Jim

[Stephen Cherry]

If you feel their is a quality difference (I'd recommend you see both before making your decision) then waiting 4-5 weeks and paying $300 more is worth it. .

I was getting ready to say the same thing.

I have the 3hp oneida also, and it is built like a tank. I've seen the clearview, and it looks OK, but I think it is fair to say that the Oneida is more robustly constructed. THis may or may not make a difference in operation.

[Russ Massery]

I have a 6 year old Clearview happy to report it's preformed flawlessly.

[mreza Salav]

I have a CV. IMO the CVMax is going to be stronger DC (more suction) than a 3HP Oneida. The advantages of CV vs Oneida IMO are: bigger surface area of filter and I think an overall better
cyclone design. I do agree that unit itself may not be as durable as the metal ones in the following sense: if you hit the exposed edges of the CV unit at the bottom of cyclone or at the intake edge with something hard while moving it perhaps it could break or crack, but I don't see how the durability could be an issue as the motor itself is also a good quality motor.

[Alan Lightstone]

Can't respond directly to the CV, but I have the 5HP Oneida and it is totally built like a tank. Once set up (takes two people for sure) it's been solid and trouble-free. And it sucks like nobody's business. Considering the altitude, this might be a consideration. The way I looked at it, it was a cry once purchase for me. I'll never need a bigger or better model.

[Paul Wunder]

Another happy Clearvue CV1800 owner (2 years). Flawless operation, easy assembly, no concern about parts quality. Fan is heavy duty and was perfectly balanced on arrival, No vibration. The usual cyclone whooshing noise. Powerful suction. I like the double sized filter area (600 sq feet) have not replaced filters. Practically no dust even reaches the filters. The motor is a heavy duty 5 HP Leeson

[joe pezza]

Michael, I just purchased a cv max myself, and the decision for me came down to what unit was gonna give me the best cfm, fpm and filtration. I set up a air quality monitor first, looked at the readings while I was working, and ordered the cv max. Pentzs website is very compelling, and since I have a basement shop, that did it for me. I am now setting up the machine and duct work, which I think is so important to get it performing as intended. The goal of 4000 fpm or better at each major machine is what really sold me the cvmax. BTW, the setup for the cv max is a lot easier than even the website shows. I also upgraded the filters to the hepa. I also purchased a fpm meter to confirm performance.
merry christmas
joe

[Mike Goetzke]

I've had the CV1800 for about 4-years now in my garage shop. Due to the noise either model produces almost everyone encases them in an insulated of some sort. So if durability of the unit is an issue (metal -vs- plastic) it becomes a non-issue if enclosed. I let my motor sit in ambient air but there are ways to cool the motor if mounted inside an enclosure. I have mine mounted from the ceiling with two high strength threaded rods and vibration isolators - works like a champ!

Mike

[David Kumm]

Michael, if you do the altitude correction the numbers come out on the high end of 5 hp. The oneida runs a 15" impeller, the CV max a 16". There is no substitute for diameter and with then air the motor won't overamp. The Oneida metal work is very well done. The clearvue separates fines better so it also depends on your machinery. If you only generate coarse dust and chips separation isn't an issue and any filter, spun bond, Hepa, nano will filter what you create. Get what will clear the filters easiest if you overfill. If you plan to drum or widebelt sand, look at the CV. Durability is a negative if the unit doesn't work well for your needs and you have to wait for either it or your lungs to fail to replace. If you go the Oneida route I would ask them if they could put a 16" impeller in their 2000 system to compensate. If not I'd think hard about whether the thin air will give you the cfm you need. Again dependent on the machine. Some have good internal channeling some not. A 1.5X sp conversion needs impeller diameter. The CV cyclone was developed for the 15" impeller so the separation efficiency on the max isn't generally quite as good but in your case the thin air will deliver less so the regular cyclone with the 7" inlet would work. I would guess the 7" main would be the way to go at that altitude. 8 is too much and 6" would further increase resistance and the altitude is doing that all ready so the piping design becomes critical. At 10,000 ft I'd need the larger cyclone and an oxygen tank for me. Dave

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Several of the CV guys have mentioned the torque on startup. That can fatigue mounting surfaces and fasteners over time. I don't know how the CV absorbs the torque, but all machines do in different ways. Think a hand router vs a shaper. The mass of a machine can help. Being a SDG owner, I can say that it is smooth and drama free on startup and in operation. The heavy welded assembly facilitates that.

I'm a little skeptical that the CV separates fine dust better. Not sure how the data to prove that could not be influenced by too many variables, like even sanding grit size and wear, total airflow at the time the dust hit the cyclone and ducting. Pretty easy to skew that data to a favorite too. My completely subjective observation is that I got an amazingly tiny amount of dust out of my filter the time I cleaned it. Yep, once in two years, like an oz. of dust. Cyclones are just a good idea, and any that are commercially available have stood the test of capitalism at least and are probably going to be surprisingly good.

I bet either will be more fun to work around from your mountain top :)

[Ole Anderson]

Normally I wouldn't recommend a 5 hp unit for a homeowner shop, but with the altitude correction, you really ought to listen to the experts here. I understand the CV is well engineered as far as cfm and separation, but you have to ask yourself : what do you want in your shop? a semi-commercial steel cyclone or a plastic and MDF DIY cyclone? That is a personal decision. And even if you go with the CV, don't think that you need to go with a 6" PVC duct, as David said, you really ought to go with a 7" main duct which means steel.

[John Coloccia]

re: CV durability, startup torque, etc etc

Has anyone actually had a CV break on them because it wasn't durable enough? Has anyone had one twist itself apart or otherwise get damaged from startup torque?

Is screwing a couple of pieces of 2X4 to a piece of plywood, and cutting a hole in a trash lid really considered DIY nowadays? If that's the case, you may as well give up now because actually running ducts will be positively impossible.

Is this thing going to be in a garage? Do you have 8' ceilings? If you're considering the Oneida unit, better call them first because the unit is spec'd for 97.5" with the small drum. If it's in a garage, you MAYBE have a true 8' in the front, but it is sloped and is significantly lower towards the back. Just an FYI. One of the things that drove me to CV was that the mounting was flexible and I could make it fit in my garage with no problem.

I think what you'll find if you search around is very happy owners of both dust collectors. The notion that the CV is somehow not durable enough is just nonsense and shouldn't factor into your decision. Cost, performance, size, customer service, etc should drive your decision.

[mreza Salav]

John, I have a CV myself and am quite happy with it.
But as I said above I do think the cyclone body is not as durable as the metal ones specially at the bottom of the cone and the edge of the inlet.
I always fear if I am over tightening the hose clamp at the bottom of the cyclone (connecting the 6" flex hose to it) as it might crack. The inlet edge had a very small crack when I bought it from the previous owner.
Overall I think it has a better cyclone design vs Oneida and almost 3 times the filter area.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

John's point about the height of the SDG is valid. I just measured mine, it sits at 95" on the floor stand. You need some space for the motor to have air circulation for cooling too. That being said, I could lower it several inches by shortening the flex hose that drops into the bin and fiddling with the mounting bolts. The wall mount bracket would make that easier. It is a tall machine though.

John, nothing personal, but I don't think that plastic or plywood is more durable, to anything non acidic, than steel. As a general rule, woodworkers are keen on preaching the virtues of the stability of heavy machines, why should a cyclone be different? Yes, the SDG may be massively overbuilt, I don't know. I personally don't mind that though.

[Bob Wingard]

I've had a CV1800 for about 7-8 years now ... had one problem that WAS NOT the fault of the unit, and was very easy to get the replacement part.

I failed to empty the bin in time ... drop chute and cyclone backed up with chips ... sucked a small piece of stock into the system, and it flew across the now-bridged cyclone ... got wedged between the impeller/housing ... blew a hole in the side of the "skirt". Could have fixed it with a simple patch but, I decided to replace the part, which was readily available from the new owners of ClearVue.

I'm a satisfied user ... ... ...

[David Kumm]

Steve the fine dust separation has to do with cyclone design. I'm not pushing CV and don't use one but their design does come closer to the industrial fine dust separators than Oneida. Only relevant if you run sanders. If you go to industrial cyclone manufacturers you often find several cyclone designs. The standard efficiency ones are closer to the Oneida design and are made to filter 30 micron and larger with 99+% efficiency but fall off the 40% or so a less than 5 microns. Even those have better inlet design. Their high efficiency units that filter 90% or so of the 5 or a little less micron size have a rectangular inlet entering from outside the diameter of the cyclone body- volute shape I think- and a longer cone and often a vortex breaker. The difference is standard vs higher efficiency and cost to manufacture rather than specific to Oneida vs Clearvue. The Baldor motor used by Oneida is the pick of the litter. The Leeson is a good motor although I think the single phase has a 7/8" shaft rather than the 1 1/8 on the three phase or on the Baldor. The CV uses a taper lock bushing on the impeller that I like better than the double set screw on the Oneida. The Oneida is a nice cast AL fan though. Either will hold up to hobby use. There are other options too. I found a used Torit 20-5 for $400, another $400 for a used VFD, another $450 for three nano cartridges and have a pretty decent system- and heavier than either the CV or Oneida. Dave

[Jim O'Dell]

I've had my CV1800 for about 7 1/2 years. Operating for about 6. I'm a light user, but it has done everything I have asked it to. And mine resides in a detached shop that has no heating or cooling. So it is at the mercy of the Extremes of Texas heat and cold, again, no issues. My big problem is coming up with hoods for tools. SCMS is a big one. Any hand power tools, ie: jig saw, sanders, circular saw, etc are where I have an issue. But I would have those issues with any brand of cyclone. Durable? Ask any policeman who has had to trust their riot shield from thrown bottles, rocks and bricks. This isn't plastic in the way that word makes us think. It is PTEG, which, while it is a form of plastic, is very strong. I've bumped mine several times. No issue. Could you damage it if you tried? Sure. But then the same force would dent a steel cyclone as well, causing issues with separation. How would you fix that? Replace a body. So same issue for both.
For me, I got the better performance I wanted at a price I could better afford. And I am very pleased. Jim.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

David, those used Torit machines are a good point. There seem to be a lot of them out there too. I think that Felder may also have a decent machine, if other new options are desired.

[David Kumm]

David, those used Torit machines are a good point. There seem to be a lot of them out there too. I think that Felder may also have a decent machine, if other new options are desired.

I'm a Felder fan but haven't figured out the benefit of their big collectors. Really expensive, filters are not the easiest to clean and no cyclone. I'm sure they are great- most Felder stuff is- but there are cheaper ways to get there. Dave