Dilemna: What to purchase!

[Robin Loewen]

Hello to members of the Engravers Forum.

I am doing research about buying a laser and need some advice about lasering leather.

1) What kind of wattage do I need to laser the thickness of a leather belt?
2) What questions should I ask when considering a used machine?

Some purchase options I have found:

1) I have the opportunity to buy a used 2006 75W Epilog Legend 36EXT that has been used quite extensively. The asking price is $17,000.00 Canadian dollars. Is that a fair price and should I be concerned that the machine has been used around the clock?

2) I have found a 2007 60W Epilog Legend completely reconditioned for $20,000.00 Canadian.

3) Go for a new Epilog Legend 36EXT. I can't really imagine spending that much money. I love the idea of having North American support and a warranty, but the price is distracting. I like the idea of sending my image to the laser just like a printer.

4) Or, go for the lower priced Chinese version. I see a lot of members have a Shenhui laser. My concern here is the ease of use, set up and support. Is it much more difficult to send your images to the laser as they do not have the printer drivers?

Lots of questions here, but any advise would help. Thanks, Robin

[Dan Hintz]

Robin,

Are you in CA, or have the used machines you've found simply been from there? Are you trying to vector cut the leather or merely engrave a design onto it (makes a huge difference in power needed)?

[Rich Harman]

Is it much more difficult to send your images to the laser as they do not have the printer drivers?

It is dead simple to send images to the laser. If you use Corel, it is one click to go from Corel to LaserWorks.

[Mike Null]

Be sure to take a look at Trotec. There is a SawmwillCreek members discount with them.

Mine's nearly 7 years old and going strong.

[Robin Loewen]

Hi Dan,

I am in Canada and the used machines are here. The 2006 machine is "as is".

I would like to both cut and engrave the leather.

[Robin Loewen]

Hi Rich,

I use Adobe Photoshop/Illistrator.

[Robin Loewen]

Thanks Mike! The guy that wants to sell the used 2006 Epilog just bought a Trotec because it is faster for his product. Economical price is going to be a very strong influencer.

[Rich Harman]

Hi Rich,

I use Adobe Photoshop/Illistrator.

Then you would need to save it as an AI file, then import that into LaserWorks. Or, actually I think there is an Illustrator plugin too but I have no experience with it.

[Rich Harman]

If you are going to be doing a lot of engraving then I would lean towards getting a Trotec (or mainstream laser). A Trotec will not cut the leather any faster than a Chinese machine but when it comes to engraving it is blindingly fast - several times faster than a Shenhui.

Having said that, if your volume is not high then engraving at a slower speed is not a big issue and you can save a lot of money by going with a Chinese machine.

I would not recommend a Chinese machine to anyone who is not mechanically inclined, or at least willing to get their hands dirty.

[David Fairfield]

I would seriously consider a used Epilog if the price were right. Mine works like new since 2006, still on the original tube, too. Replacement parts are available from Epilog and simple to install.

Dave

[Bob A Miller]

Robin

I think I know the used Epilog's you are looking at... I considered things long & hard myself. I ended up getting a Gwieke machine & have been enjoying the learning curve. While far from an expert I can offer a few points that might be relevant.

Per the shenshui threads the Gwieke is a quality machine... The importing went smoothly but understand getting support may not be as smooth as picking up a phone. Rich nailed it with the comment about not recommending Chinese machines if you don't want to get your hands dirty or aren't inclined to want to "tinker".

While Laserworks isn't overly hard to use, it also isn't as convenient as having software that treats the laser as a print driver.. On using my machine for high speed engraving I think the Epilog/Trotec & Universals would be better... I have seen Epilog's in operation, not the other two..

I think new machine owners can have issues no matter who you buy from... Be comfortable with the company you want to deal with no matter which way you go... I did a lot of reading on the boards, which helped a great deal & filled in many wholes. Great community with lots of very helpfull people here.

In my case I balanced cost against the bed size & the fact I didn't buy one to start a business, though that may happen any way. There can be some great used deals out there but I passed on the Epilog 36's. Be happy to share the why if you want to drop me a PM.

Bob

[Keith Outten]

Robin,

We are giving away a brand new Trotec Speedy 100 60 watt laser engraver on February 11th here.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?195531-FreeStuff-Drawing-Win-A-Trotec-Laser-Engraver

Take a look at this machine, I believe the Speedy 100 new is in your price range and you won't find a better Laser Engraver anywhere.
.

[Martin Boekers]

I have 2 Epilog EXT 36 75 watts, the older being 2005, it still cranks it out day in and day out, in that time I have replaced 1 mother board, 2 tubes,
3 X motors, 2 lenses. Plus a handful of belts magnets & encoder strips. Does that machine come with everything? Rotary, compressor, exhuast?
That can add up quickly. The thing I dislike with the older as opposed to the newer is the bed. The main bed is flimsy (the thin steel insert that
sets over the vector grid) The newer is much more robust and is solid. These have been great lasers with great support, but I have to be hones,
at $17k for a laser that's going on 8 years old, and has been used hard, I would have to consider a new Trotec. Even then if I were you, I would
hold off until ARA show in Feb, that way you can see all the lasers bring some samples to see which works for you, then wheel and deal as they are all
at one spot. Typically you can get a better price at a show like this or at least they will through in extras. Don't forget shipping as that can cost $1k
or more.

Good luck with you venture.

[Joe Hillmann]

Before buying a used machine I would call the company that made it to try and get information on it (Universal keeps pretty good records of there machines, so maybe Epilog does to). And when you are talking to the company ask them what parts are most likely to fail and the replacement cost. Since the machines you are looking at are 2006 there is a good chance they will need there tubes charged or replaced in the near future. A laser tube, according to Universal, is good for 3-5 years but may last much longer. I have one that gets very little use and the tube is 12 years old, I expect it to die on me any day but so far it appears to run like new.

As far a wattage for cutting leather, I know a 35 watt machine can cut through leather but it is slow, and a 50 watt will cut the same piece about 3 times faster, so I would assume a 75 watt that your are looking at should have all the power you need.

Edit: Also keep in mind bed size. I have never thought to myself,"this laser is just to big for the work I do with it" You can always fit a small part on a big laser but it takes a lot of creativity and time to fit a big part on a bed that is to small to hold it.

[Ross Moshinsky]

The first machine I think is over valued by about 7k. I undervalue used machinery in general but just this week I was bidding on a 2010 Universal PLS 4.75 on eBay and it went for 12,200 + freight which only had 150 hours on the tube.

The second machine is high, in my opinion, but not unreasonable. That's a $30,000 machine brand new.

Instead of importing from China, you can buy from someone in Canada/US. You pay extra but you're getting a number to call and some assistance. Motiontek, Logilase, and HFLaser seem to be 3 companies in Canada selling Chinese machines.

[Bert Kemp]

First Thing Stay away from Full Spectrum Laser. Second I have lasered and vector 6 to 8 oz leather very easy with a 40w laser.

[Robin Loewen]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks so much for all the information. Your responses have given me ideas for reasearching further and have helped to narrow down the decision. I will let you know how I proceed.

Have a wonderful holiday, Robin

[Robin Loewen]

Hi Dan,

I responded to your message, but can't seem to find it in my "sent" folder. Did you receive it?

[Rodne Gold]

I would NEVER pay $17k or near that for a laser with a tube 6+ years old , based on my experience with many RF laser tubes , a 6 yr old tube is looking for trouble. You will have no real warrantee with the 2nd hand machines anyway...
I would in fact rather get a brand new maybe slower or less powered mainstream machine for that money if you really need extensive handholding and feel uncomfortable about a self import.

Read the sticky thread at the top of the forum , all the pros and cons etc listed there..make up your own mind whether you want to go the chinese route..
I have just gone thru the busiest season I have ever had , my 2 shenuis worked 10 hrs a day without a hitch..been on the go for approaching 2 yrs and I couldn't be happier...but YMMV...

[Larry Bratton]

You ever been around where leather is being cut with a laser? In case you haven't be advised it stinks to high heaven.

[Robin Loewen]

Thanks Ross! We are looking into these companies. We are leaning towards this route as it will get the machine in our hands faster and give us support.

[Robin Loewen]

Hi Everyone, Sorry for not responding - I have been on holidays and then down with the flu. Thanks for all the great tips! The information provided has been very useful in narrowing down the decision. Will keep you posted about the choice. Thanks, Robin

[Robin Loewen]

Hi Larry, We have smelled laser cut leather. Not very nice, but the smell dissipates after awhile!

[Robin Loewen]

My new laser is installed! I ended up purchasing from a Toronto company called Logilase http://www.logilase.com/main.html. Thanks to Ross Moshinsky for directing me to this Canadian company. Mike from Logilase is an engineer who designs custom automation for manufacturing and he sells lasers as well. He brings in the parts from China and assembles the machine for you. I paid just a little more than if I had ordered from China myself, but Mike does all the installation and he spent a full day training me. It came with a very easy to understand manual and I have local support. The installation, training and support were well worth the extra dollars.

Thanks everyone who provided vital information and support through the purchase process, Robin