New chisels? Soft? Why?

[Adam Cruea]

Well, for some of the Jr. Woodchucks like myself, I think we have the answer as to why they make chisels from softer steel now. I must say, I'm quite glad that this more of bent and faltered before it snapped.

Needless to say, I am not a happy camper that my 3/4" SW just bit the dust in such an undignified way. It was my favorite chisel out of the set because I used it so much for dovetailing.

So, I ask of the more experienced crowd. . .why did this happen? The blade is still straight and flat (so it's not like I jumped up and down on it and *tried* to snap it).

Also. . .is it possible Stanley would replace it?

Thanks, y'all.

[Mike Henderson]

If you don't mind disclosing, how did it break? Were you using it as a chisel at the time, and if so, what were you doing - were you prying chips out of a mortise? Or did it fall off the bench, or did you step on it, or what?

Mike

[John Coloccia]

Where you trying to lever out a deep mortise, or something?

[Jim Koepke]

Also. . .is it possible Stanley would replace it?

The best way to get an answer to that is to contact the people where you bought the chisel or to contact Stanley's customer service.

jtk

[glenn bradley]

I hope something dramatic happened as those chisels are priced in the neighborhood of other quality offerings. If that occurred during normal use . . . ouch!

[Dave Lehnert]

Looks like you may be covered.

http://stanleytools.com/default.asp?TYPE=STATICLEFT&PAGE=warrantyreturns.htm&LEFT=left_warrantyreturns.htm

[John Coloccia]

OK, I give up Dave. What is your avatar?

[Adam Cruea]

If you don't mind disclosing, how did it break? Were you using it as a chisel at the time, and if so, what were you doing - were you prying chips out of a mortise? Or did it fall off the bench, or did you step on it, or what?

Mike

It has fallen off the bench a time or two, and no, I make sure not to step on sharp metal objects. Try and catch them while they're falling, yes. Step on them, no. lol

And no, I wasn't prying with it. Just chopping dovetails. Dad (Dale) got it through my head very quickly that prying with a bench or paring chisel can snap it. I gave it a solid *whack* with the Jatoba carving mallet dad turned from me and the next thing I knew I was holding a chisel that was bent at about 90 degrees. My index finger has a little cut on it where the handle bent back while I was holding it.

Oddly, right where it broke is where I generally (but not all the time) hold a chisel while chopping dovetails. I've learned if I hold the blade while giving it a good rap, sometimes I get a glancing blow in and I pretend my finger tips are wood that needs chopped. :(

@Glenn> That's why I am not too happy of a camper. That chisel has always seemed a little hinky (the handle liked to fall out of it and when I would turn the chisel upside down and rap it on a bench, the rim of the hornbeam handle where the tip goes into the socket seemed to bottom out).

@Dave> I had seen Stanley had a "limited lifetime warranty". . .I just wasn't sure if this would be covered as I was *hoping* I wasn't doing something wrong, but figured I'd ask those with more experience, just to make sure. Or maybe someone else had this happen and had gotten a replacement without much fuss. Thanks for confirming what I had found.

[Ryan Baker]

Probably just a defect that slipped through. Let Stanley replace it. From your description, it sounds like there has been a crack for some time. You can tell a lot from looking at the fracture, if you can get a really good close-up shot of the broken ends.

[David Weaver]

OK, I give up Dave. What is your avatar?

I'm not the right Dave, but it's Judas Priest album artwork.

[John Coloccia]

I'm not the right Dave, but it's Judas Priest album artwork.

Thanks, Dave. I knew that I saw it somewhere, and I've been trying to place it for what seems like YEARS.

[george wilson]

Chisels should be made so their tang or socket ends are left softer so that doesn't happen. Certainly I make mine that way. In the old days,after hardening(which the hardening heat was never allowed to go clear up the length of the chisel anyway),tempering was done by heating at the tang end and letting the colors creep towards the cutting end. That way,the tang was certainly left soft.

I am wondering how these Stanley chisels were made. It is possible that a tool steel investment casting method could be used,rather than a forging method. That would definitely make the socket more easily formed. I would MUCH prefer a tool formed by forging. I do know that some of the axes that at least used to be sold by Woodcraft or Garrett Wade(can't remember) WERE cast from tool steel,though it was advertised that they were forged. I know this because the maker of these axes visited me years ago at the toolmaker's shop,and told me that he cast them.

I have no idea at all how the Stanley chisels are fabricated,but I'm just mentioning that there is more than one way that tools are made these days. Perhaps the socket is welded to the shank separately. That could cause a fault,too. Obviously,there was some kind of a fault in the metal at the socket for that to have happened. They should replace the chisel,and I think they will.

[Mel Fulks]

Adam, how can you be so ungrateful ? I'm sure a vintage hand forged chisel would have broken in three pieces! Don't worry , if this is your first offense , you'll probably just get a letter of reprimand.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I was excited that I actually knew what Dave's avatar was. Defenders of the Faith, right? I always thought that and Screaming For Vengeance had awesome covers.

On the subject of avatars, I was wondering who this new, third Dave was, until I realized it was just Mr. Weaver with a new avatar. You guys can't go doing that, it confuses me. (I'm slow . . . it took me a while for my brain to acknowledge the fact that Chris is not actually in fact a cat)

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks for letting us know about this problem: it is important to share quality failures. It sure looks like a problem with differential heat treatment. I suppose that makes your chisel what Chris Schwarz calls a tool-like object! :D

Stan

[Jason Coen]

I don't think that will buff out.

[Chris Griggs]

I'm slow . . . it took me a while for my brain to acknowledge the fact that Chris is not actually in fact a cat

Ha! I'm still coming to terms with that as well. Life would be so much simpler.....

I always thought Dave L's Avatar was a transformer. Looks like I way off.

Dave W. Who is your new avatar?

Adam, that SUCKS about your chisels. Let us know how it turns out.

[Adam Cruea]

I don't think that will buff out.

Thanks. I'm now cleaning a small spritz of coffee off my keyboard and monitor. :D

[Sam Takeuchi]

Thanks. I'm now cleaning a small spritz of coffee off my keyboard and monitor. :D

Ah, 'tis nothing duct tape can't fix. Pour Robitussin on it for good measure. "Let that 'tussin get in there, boy!" (Chris Rock)

[Jason Coen]

Ah, 'tis nothing duct tape can't fix. Pour Robitussin on it for good measure. "Let that 'tussin get in there, boy!" (Chris Rock)

Got to let that 'tussin get to the bone! Out of 'tussin? Add some water, shake it up - mo 'tussin!

[David Weaver]

Dave W. Who is your new avatar?
.

I wonder if anyone on here could guess.

[Chris Griggs]

Nah, just put some Windex on it. Way more effective than duct tape or tussin.

[Jim Matthews]

I forsee a spike in orders from LV and Stanley sales tanking if word of this gets out...

[John Piwaron]

I tried ordering from LV a couple of days ago. All the cool new chisels are sold out for a couple of months. So L-N and Iyoroi got a little business while I wait.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Never had any luck receiving a reply from Stanley using any method of communication.... So I think that your only choice is to send the chisel to Stanley without chatting with them first. Interested in what they do. I never bothered because I could not elicit a response so I just repaired the stuff myself. Repairing the chisel is so far outside something I am able to do..... If only I were George Wilson, he can do anything :D (really George, I admire your work greatly)

[Jason Coen]

If I had enough duct tape, bailing wire, and zip ties I could conquer the world.

You're on your own with that chisel, though. :p

[Zach Dillinger]

If I had enough duct tape, bailing wire, and zip ties I could conquer the world.

You're on your own with that chisel, though. :p

You forgot Scotch, CA glue and WD-40. All of these things are in my "Mayan-Zombie-Tornado-Earthquake-Snowstorm Apocalypse" bug-out bag.

[Jason Coen]

You forgot Scotch, CA glue and WD-40. All of these things are in my "Mayan-Zombie-Tornado-Earthquake-Snowstorm Apocalypse" bug-out bag.

Mine, too, actually - along with a Leatherman, safety pins, electrical tape, tweezers, baby wipes, diapers, cyalumes, OC spray, a SF E1L, some things that make very loud noises, 17 refills for the noise maker, Copenhagen, etc....

But mines a diaper, um, man bag that goes everywhere with me. Never know what the two-year-old or two-month-old will need...or break.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I wonder if anyone on here could guess.

I know who it is, but I cheated and used Google image search, so I'll keep quiet.

[David Weaver]

I forgot that you can just use image search to find something like that. It's Harley Race, who for the uninitiated was a wrestler, but old school. He's super tough in real life, and he was a master at drawing heat even though most people knew the events were scripted, he could still make the fans mad, anyway.

Figured it'd be a good one to go with since we have drawn so much heat (though unintentionally) lately.

[Matt Radtke]

And Adamn, softer steel wouldn't fail in this manner. Your particular failure was probably a crack or something, but softer steel is "tougher." Hard steel will crack and fail, soft steel will deform or bend.

[Jim Matthews]

There may be a new wrinkle in AC's chisel problem - I've got a sneak photo of his mallet...

248495

[george wilson]

Matt is exactly right. Softer steel is tougher. That's why chisel makers have tempered from the tang end. There had to be some kind of crack or inclusion in that chisel. I am reminded of the cap and ball revolver I was brought for analysis. It had blown into 2 pieces first time it was fixed. Colt open top style cap and ball revolvers only had the largish cylinder pin to hold the cylinder and barrel on. The cylinder pin broke off flush with the recoil shield. The fracture was terribly coarse looking. It looked like chunks of metal made of grains about 1/32" square. Worse than cast iron!! I had no idea what they did to it to make it have a grain like that,but the steel was certainly defective. It was an Uberti,considered a decent brand.

Take the chisel back to the seller. Let them deal with contacting Stanley. The dealer ought to exchange it for you. Or,did you buy it online? There's no 100% effective way to fix that chisel. Welding it would require a lot of time filing and polishing the weld,and then it still would only be a weld,not solid tool steel.(there are superior welding materials available,but the home shop guy isn't going to have them. Anyway,just not worth the labor vs getting a new chisel.

[brian c miller]

My guess is austenite transformation to martensite is making the metal too brittle to resiste impacts dues to poor tempering.

[Chris Padilla]

There may be a new wrinkle in AC's chisel problem - I've got a sneak photo of his mallet...

248495

Mjollnir!!

[Gabe Shackle]

There may be a new wrinkle in AC's chisel problem - I've got a sneak photo of his mallet...

248495

Can I get this in the new PM-V11?

[Chris Padilla]

Gabe,

If you did, it wouldn't be Mjollnir as it is only forged from Valhallaian steel. :D

[Ron Kellison]

Gabe,

If you did, it wouldn't be Mjollnir as it is only forged from Valhallaian steel. :D

I'm sure that Robin Lee looked at this as part of his evaluation sample before he made the final decision on PM-V11. Verbal assurances from the Norse Gods aren't good enough for LV customers. Empirical proof to the rescue!

Ron

[glenn bradley]

Adam, all joking aside I hope Stanley takes care of you on that. Any maker can have one slip by. I doubt there was anything visual that an inspector would have seen or you would have seen it before now. My favorite router bits are American made Whiteside bits. I had a keyhole bit snap during use after a very reasonable amount of cutting without any issue. I emailed Whiteside and offered to send it back for inspection if they so desired. I wasn't looking for a replacement but, they sent me one anyway explaining that there was a "snowflake" in the steel, whatever that means. Whatever it was, they made good even though I didn't ask. I would get with Stanley and see what they say. They are trying to make a comeback with their planes and chisels so they may go the extra mile for you.

[Jim Matthews]

Gabe,

If you did, it wouldn't be Mjollnir as it is only forged from Valhallaian steel. :D

You do know that Asgaard is up North, right?
I'm just saying, our man from Ottawa is well connected.

With no hockey skates to make this year, Valhalla tool and die company is a little slow...

[ian maybury]

I guess that it happened at the 'notch' where the blade transitions to the socket implies a lot. That's (a) a very heavily loaded part of the chisel (minimum cross section), (b) subject in addition to this to the stress concentration likely to arise as a result of the 'necked' shape at that point (perhaps worsened by notches if the grinding is coarse - the potential is for the nominal stress/loading at that point to be multiplied by many many times), and (c) the thinned section at that point would make it easier for it to cool faster than the rest/be possible for the relatively heavy blade to pull the heat out of it fairly quickly during heat treatment - increasing the chance of its creating the brittle form of the steel.

As the guys say the grain size of the fracture surface would tell a lot. It's anyway unlikely that it would have broken like that (a brittle failure with no sign of any bending) if it wasn't overly hard - a ductile material would have bent...

If the warranty is solid it might make sense to (carefully) test a few more - just in case the problem is common and not a one off. It'd be nice to find out before the warranty expires...

ian

[Adam Cruea]

There may be a new wrinkle in AC's chisel problem - I've got a sneak photo of his mallet...

248495

Actually, I shattered the previous Thor's mallet I made. I was driving drawpins with it (hickory draws, nonetheless) and suddenly the side flew off on a back swing. :( So Thor's Thunder Mallet is being remade at the moment. :(

And now that you mention it, George. . .the steel did look very "grainy". My first thought after the "what the (*)$?" was "wow. . .this looks a lot like sugar, or maybe dry-ish clay. That doesn't seem right."

I'll go get a picture of the metal and upload. I'm not sure I can describe what it looks like that well.

[edit]Uploaded pictures. Hopefully they're focused decently enough to see what the metal looks like and that it looks almost powdered (to me, at least).

[Jim Palmer]

If this is a typical example - judging by the wall thickness at the front and back of the socket base - I'd say they're unfit for purpose and definitely not worth the money paid.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Adam, please keep us posted on this. I just received my full set of these, and as you can imagine, am interested in the outcome of your dilemma!

[brian c miller]

Great job on the pictures. I am going to formally retract my previous statment and say that it was very clearly a faliure along the friction weld.

It would be a pretty likely that they make the blade from flat stock and then spin weld the socket to the tang of the blade. This is standard pratice for the FatMax series of chisels.

See press release:

http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?TYPE=STATICLEFT&PAGE=PR_fatmaxchisels04.htm&LEFT=left_pr.htm


I would complain and back it up with some facts (poorly seated friction weld) and offer to send the chisel back or picture of the failure. I bought a one of the new sweetheart block planes and the level cap had poorly machines / oversized threads. After a few phone calls to cus't service, armed with some data, that plane was eventually replaced.

Good luck.
BCM

[Jim Matthews]

Considering what these things cost, this is unacceptable.

[george wilson]

As far as I know, a NASA machinist friend of mine was conducting experiments with a SORT OF friction welding not too many years ago. I their experiments,2 plates of aluminum were placed close together,and fed into a rotating steel rod under great pressure. The rod got hot enough to melt the aluminum and stir it together. I'm wondering if this is an out growth of this new technology?

Anyhow,the chisel seems WAY too thin where it broke !!!

If their chisels are made from "ball bearing steel",that would be 52100 steel. It is a relatively simple alloy containing 3% chrome(from memory). Some custom knife makers use it. I made a knife from forging a 1 3/8" dia. ball bearing ball into a strip nearly 12" long,1/4" x 3/4" . The jury is still out on whether or not I like the steel for knives. I haven't used it that much. 52100 steel's surface decarbs very readily even at blood red heat,which is VERY low,and I had to heat it to forge it into the needed strip to make a pocket knife blade from. I did this by welding a long steel bar onto the bearing ball ( ball MUST BE ANNEALED) to avoid it literally blowing up in your face in very dangerous fragments when welding on a steel rod!!!! It was forged at the lowest possible heat under a power hammer(even at a low red heat,this steel is hard to forge!)I did this to simulate as much as possible the making of Wootz steel,which it was finally discovered some years ago,was forged at only red heat. This resulted in a much smaller carbide size in the finished sword. I'm wondering if my knife's edge still is a little into the decarbed range,as it doesn't seem to be the wonder metal some ascribe to it.

Ball bearings do have to stand up to unbelievable torture in use every day.

Before the advent of "super finishing" of metals used in bearings,pistons,and other critical parts ,brand new cars shipped from Detroit to the West coast had to have their wheel bearings replaced before the cars could be sold. The gentle pounding of running on rails made little flat spots on the bearings while the cars sat motionless on the train. Hard to believe,but true. Those tiny flat spots lead to rapid bearing failure. Now,they are polished so smooth,the metal has a more compacted,solid surface,and can stand this type of wear.

Next time,I intend to harden the forged bar after drilling the pivot hole in the blade,and grind the blade entirely from the more massive forged "billet".

But,this is neither here of there. Your chisel is just very,very thin where it broke. The grain of your metal,being apparently a weld,cannot be judged by me. Anything is possible. I'd be more satisfied if the chisel had the socket forged from the solid than welded on separately. But,that's just my opinion,and I am not a metallurgist,really,not in the sense that real ones are. Stanley likely did this to save money on expensive progressive forging dies.I think I will not be buying these chisels. I'm spoiled on the LV PM steel anyway.

[Jason Coen]

I'm spoiled on the LV PM steel anyway.

I love my LN A2 chisels.

I used poor chisels for a long time. Chisels with bad steel and even worse ergonomics. I couldn't find vintage chisels in any quantity then, and couldn't afford LN. But I learned how to coax an edge from them, and what caused that edge to fail. I learned why good balance (define how you want) is important in a chisel, because my cheap chisels didn't have it. They felt like a butter knife with a rolling pin as a handle. Actually, that may be better balanced than my old chisels.

Anyway, these poor chisels taught me a lot about what is important in a chisel and what can be left to personal preference. After trying various brands of newly manufactured chisels I finally settled on the LN's several years ago. I couldn't be happier. They feel great in my hand, they're finished beautifully, and they're made from good steel. I can't see myself using another set of chisels.

But the reports that the LV PM chisels are getting are certainly making me think. I resisted even considering them since I was so happy with my LN chisels and the fact that they're not socketed (I like making my own handles), but now I've got my curious up. Dang that Rob Lee and his fancy steels. :p

If they'd come out with a true paring chisel....

[brian c miller]

George, Friction welds are becoming more popular, especially for joining round things. You'll see it a lot in the manufacture of intake and exhaust valves, drive shafts, etc. We used them to join the anvil to the output shaft on very large (3000 Ft. Lbs) impact wrenches.


I agree with George, I am disappointed in the design, but I live in the manufacturing world I understand the need to utilize existing process in your plant.

A broken weld should make for an easy return.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I would be curious as to the response from the manufacturer about the break and what type of steel was used. To the OP, can you post an enlarged, close-up photo? What is odd to me, is the break happening in a circular fashion around the socket.

[brian c miller]

The break we are seeing is due to a poor weld, I would bet a $100 that the chisel is 2 parts and friction welded.

Here's a good descrition of the process... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aEuAK8bsQg

My guess is that one part was slightly over/under sized and the weld didn't seat fully leave a space between the two parts. It looks like a machine surface on both the flat bottom hole in the socket (you can begin to see the welds form a start pattern) and the rounded end of the tang. This should begin to mushroom over and fill in the gap during the weld.

Also, another large hint is that nearly every UK retailor lists the sweethearts as having "high quality EN31 carbon steel blades."
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stanley-Sweetheart-Socket-Chisel-STA116785/dp/B007XPVV62

Combine that fact with the US press release about this great new (not really that new) process of friction welds on FatMax chisels with EN31 blades... both sets listed as being made in Sheffield England? You can also draw you own conclusion about these being just a FatMax with a fancy handle butI think a broken weld is a pretty safe bet.

[Tony Zaffuto]

With all due respect, how do you know it was welded? I am not a metallurgist, but I do employ one and also two metallurgical engineers. From what was pictured, I am curious to take a closer look before even thinking of forming an opinion.

[ian maybury]

Whatever the situation re. the weld the wall looks far too thin...

ian

[george wilson]

You can see the curious looking teats around the inside of the hole on the broken chisel. They are artifacts from the friction weld.

[ian maybury]

It always depends on the specifics of the situation (i.e. who knows what happened in this case), and my recollection is fuzzy - but another possible problem with the likes of a friction or any other weld that may only entail quite highly localised heating is that the surrounding metal can pull the relatively small amount of energy out of it very quickly - leading to the possibility of the hardening (much like quenching) of the steel, and the brittleness mentioned.

There's also the risk of cracking if the weld cools at the wrong/too high a speed in the heat affected zone - especially if the steel as is presumably the case not just a high carbon content but also has some chromium and/or other alloy content. Pre-heating to avoid the problem isn't unusual in that sort of situation - which is another variable that could go wrong in a production welding process...

ian

[george wilson]

That is a good point,Ian. When I weld bandsaw blades,I press the anneal button several times,quick little pushes spaced farther apart. Then,I remove the blade,file the weld,and put the blade back in. Then,I press the anneal button quickly and bring the welded seam up to a blue color(once I can see the bright metal after filing).I seldom ever have a weld break.

If they don't carefully anneal the chisel weld,it could easily be too brittle.

[Adam Cruea]

I would be curious as to the response from the manufacturer about the break and what type of steel was used. To the OP, can you post an enlarged, close-up photo? What is odd to me, is the break happening in a circular fashion around the socket.

Unfortunately, with the camera I am using, I'm not exactly sure if I can manually focus it and thus get an enlarged, good picture. :( Sorry.

And I did check a few of the other chisels by popping the handle out of the socket. . .it looks like this chisel just didn't get the metal melted as well as the other chisels. On the 3 or 4 others I check, the bottom of the socket is almost solid without the little teats that this one has.

[Larry Frank]

It kind of looks like it started with fatigue cracks which grew until they entire part broke. Better close up pictures of the fracture surface would help a lot.

The best way to know for certain is to have someone put it in a scanning electron microscope and look at the fracture surface. One could figure out how it broke and if there are any defects or such that started the break. Sorry, I do not have one and no longer have access to one.

[michael case]

I had a sweetheart plane for couple hours once. The A2 steel blade turned into a comb. I reground it on a Tormek four times. Same thing over and over: a few passes (in poplar for Pete's sake) and turned into a comb again. Nice! Bought it at Rockler in the morning and it went back to Rockler in the afternoon. Went by the Stanley Works in New Britain Ct. not too long ago. Not much going on there. Just big empty buildings with broken windows and weedy empty parking lots. I wonder where Stanley is making these quality products? Maybe they should change their name to Stan Lee

[David Weaver]

Making them in mexico, not that they aren't making a bunch of stuff in china, too.

[Adam Cruea]

Making them in mexico, not that they aren't making a bunch of stuff in china, too.

The SW chisels are *supposed* to be made over in England now. I'm not sure about the other stuff.

[michael case]

England: That make actually makes sense. Its where Stanley also produces those horrible Baileys with the plastic totes and knobs.

[David Weaver]

The SW chisels are *supposed* to be made over in England now. I'm not sure about the other stuff.

Right, chisels and plane irons in sheffield. Planes (as mentioned above) are made in mexico, less the irons.

[David Weaver]

I got the scoop, a change in the commentary earlier, at least for japanese chisels.

Run of the mill chisels get laminated together, some maybe no special treatment.

Good chisels get a soak for an extended period of time, overnight or a day, before getting forge welded and hammered. The good chisels are hammered at high heat then to compact the grain.

(and not below red heat, as george alluded to that's been disproved in terms of compacting grain).

Koyamaichi, Tasai, Ouchi....all have some method of soaking their steel at a lower temperature for an extended period of time before working it.

[Dave Lehnert]

OK, I give up Dave. What is your avatar?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenders_of_the_Faith

[Adam Cruea]

Just an update. . .

Stanley replaced it. My wife had kept forgetting to ship it (she works right by an UPS/USPS facility and kept forgetting it in her desk at work).

No fuss, no muss, replaced. :) And it's already nipped me and drawn blood! :D

[Larry Frank]

Looks like a fatigue fracture on one side and the other side shows the final brittle fracture.

As a metallurgist, there is nothing too amazing about the break and nothing to indicate that there was something wrong with the steel. It is likely that it was used to hard for the grade of steel in the part.