Face Frame Help Needed...

[Derek Arita]

OK...I've never done this kind of face frame before, so I have a question...the frame is mounting to a typical kitchen-type cabinet. Doors will mount to it and they will be probably overlay type doors. The frame is slightly over sized and will not be flush with the cabinet sides, top or bottom. I want to use biscuits to join face frame to cabinet. Exactly how to I mark and cut the biscuit slots in the frame? The slots in the cabinet sides, top and bottom will be simple as marking and cutting, but I'm not sure about the frame slots.

[Bill Neely]

If I understand you correctly the face frame will overhang the outside of the cabinet. If that's right, measure the width of the face frame and subtract the width of the cabinet. 1/2 of that measurement plus whatever setting you use for the cabinet will be the setting for cutting the face frame slots. Do the same with top and bottom. All that is assuming that you want an equal amount of overlap on each side.

[Chris Rosenberger]

I lay the face frame on the front of the cabinet, get the overhangs correct, put pencil marks on the face frame, at the outside corners of the cabinet box. I put marks on the face frame & cabinet box at each buicuit location. I remove the face frame, use a straight edge to connect the corner pencil marks on the face frame. I then use the bottom face of the biscuit jointer as a register point. The bottom face of the biscuit jointer would be set flush with the outside of the cabinet box & it would be set even with the line on the face frame.

For any edges that are flush, I just flush the bottom of the jointer to all edges.

[Sam Murdoch]

I usually flush out the face frame to the cabinet box but occasionally need to do as you describe with the overlay face frame. In that case I mark my parts as Chris describes above - BUT - the difference is that I make up a pad to attach to the plate of my biscuiter that is exactly the thickness of the overlay (including the thickness of tape). With my old Lamello I need to use the slot height attachment plate for this purpose unless the overlay is only about an 1/8" or less, then I use the regular plate.

The pad is well notched so that I can see my layout lines (a clear plexi pad is the best) and I attach it with double stick tape to the plate. With the thickness pad attached I then do a practice layout on a spare plywood piece to establish the slot height from the ply face to the ply center +/- of the cut. When I am happy I do all the plunges in the plywood parts. Next, I remove the pad from the biscuiter and plunge all the slots in the face frame. The parts should then align perfectly. In effect you are using the edge face of the face frame to align your slots just as you would if everything was flush.

[Mark Wooden]

I use use a block the thickness of the offset like Sam's method, it's easiest. But, if it's just a few biscuits, most of the time I just hold the block in place by hand. I plane a piece of hardwood to the thickness and draw a square line across an edge and face to align with the mark on the carcase, set the joiner to the mark and plunge. Then plunge the faceframe with out the block

[Jeff Duncan]

Are you still in the design phase? If so ditch the biscuits altogether, just not a good place for them. When you build your cabinet leave the sides about 3/16" +/- deeper than the top and bottom. Now take your assembled face frame and using a dado blade cut corresponding grooves down the back of both uprights. When you go to attach the faceframe use construction adhesive in the grooves and pocket screws at the top and bottom and your done! Oh and unless you have a specific reason not to.....leave the top of the faceframe flush with the top of the cabinet. Otherwise its going to be a PITA come time to put a top on;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Derek Arita]

Got it! Thanks for your replies! I thought about doing as you said, but wasn't quite sure that was the best way. Now I can proceed. I love that I can come here and ask questions and get answers from those more experienced than I am. Thanks again.

[Chris Rosenberger]

Are you still in the design phase? If so ditch the biscuits altogether, just not a good place for them. When you build your cabinet leave the sides about 3/16" +/- deeper than the top and bottom. Now take your assembled face frame and using a dado blade cut corresponding grooves down the back of both uprights. When you go to attach the faceframe use construction adhesive in the grooves and pocket screws at the top and bottom and your done! Oh and unless you have a specific reason not to.....leave the top of the faceframe flush with the top of the cabinet. Otherwise its going to be a PITA come time to put a top on;)

good luck,
JeffD

Could you explain why it is not a good place to use biscuits?

[Sam Murdoch]

I will respectfully disagree with Jeff as I think that biscuits are a very easy and efficient way to attach face frames to cabinet boxes- flush or otherwise. It is a great use of the biscuit! I've read about all the options that others use but in 20+ years this is my most preferred method.

[Don Jarvie]

I use biscuits and measure like above. Now not to hijack the thread...

A bigger question is what type of hinges are you using? Some require the inside of the face frame to be flush with the inside of the cabinet. Some will attach to the face frame but you need to have the face frame be wider than the cabinet.

If you haven't pick your hinge and then build the face frame.

[Derek Arita]

Thanks for the replies! I'm using hinges that attach to the face frame. I went the advise given and all went very well. Everything lined up perfectly. I have enough support from the biscuits and glue and learned something in the process...pretty neat. Thanks again!

[John TenEyck]

I know you've already done the job, but think about this modification for the future. I like Norm's method. You use a 5/32" router bit to cut a dado in all the front edges of your cabinets parts where the faceframes will attach. Aim for the middle of the edge but it doesn't really matter. Now you don't have to put any registration marks for cutting mating biscuit slots in the cabinet and face frame. To cut the slots in the back of your faceframe parts, I also use a shim the exact thickness the faceframe overhangs the side but in a different way. Set the biscuit cutter so that the blade projects into the slot you cut in one of the cabinet parts. Slide the fence against the side of the part with the shim in between and lock the fence. Remove the shim; the fence will now be the correct distance for cutting the slots in the faceframes. Now go cut the slots in your faceframes where ever you want.

FWIW, I also agree with Sam that it's hard to beat biscuits for attaching faceframes in terms of speed, accuracy, and nothing shows afterwards.

John

[Michael W. Clark]

I did my wetbar cabinets this way, using biscuits and pocket screws for the faceframe attachment. I use the TS surface and fence when doing biscuits slots. I slotted the sides with no spacer under the biscuit jointer, then slotted the FF with a spacer. The spacer was not attached, but simply rested on the table top under the biscuit jointer. I could have moved the fence on the biscuit jointer, but referencing of the bottom seemed more accurate and quicker.

I did an overhang on the sides of about an 1/8". This gave me a 1/4" gap between cabinet boxes and I could easily pull the FFs tight to each other with screws. I was mindful of where the hinges would go and mapped out the biscuits, connecting screws, and hinges on a story stick to avoid any interference. Maybe this wasn't necessary but I have it for the next cabinets.

Mike

[Jeff Duncan]

Could you explain why it is not a good place to use biscuits?

Sure, b/c it's much more difficult and time consuming to use biscuits. When your trying to get a lot of cabinets done as quickly as possible, while eliminating as much needless measuring and layout as possible.....you go with K.I.S.S.;) Trying to get all those biscuits perfectly aligned....uh, uh, not for me. I've tried a bunch of methods over the years until another shop owner explained his technique.....(the one I explained above), I've never looked back! I like biscuits for a lot of things....faceframes just aren't one of them!

good luck,
JeffD

[Derek Arita]

Are you still in the design phase? If so ditch the biscuits altogether, just not a good place for them. When you build your cabinet leave the sides about 3/16" +/- deeper than the top and bottom. Now take your assembled face frame and using a dado blade cut corresponding grooves down the back of both uprights. When you go to attach the faceframe use construction adhesive in the grooves and pocket screws at the top and bottom and your done! Oh and unless you have a specific reason not to.....leave the top of the faceframe flush with the top of the cabinet. Otherwise its going to be a PITA come time to put a top on;)

good luck,
JeffD

Jeff,
so what happens when you want the face frame flush with the cabinet side?

[Chris Rosenberger]

Sure, b/c it's much more difficult and time consuming to use biscuits. When your trying to get a lot of cabinets done as quickly as possible, while eliminating as much needless measuring and layout as possible.....you go with K.I.S.S.;) Trying to get all those biscuits perfectly aligned....uh, uh, not for me. I've tried a bunch of methods over the years until another shop owner explained his technique.....(the one I explained above), I've never looked back! I like biscuits for a lot of things....faceframes just aren't one of them!

good luck,
JeffD

Well, I must be doing something wrong. It only takes me a few minutes per cabinet to layout & cut the biscuits. I do not see how it would be quicker to cut all of the rabbets, dados, pocket holes & then plug all of the exposed pocket holes. But that is why there are different ways of doing things. I just do not agree with stating that a process has no place in cabinetmaking, just because someone cannot figure out how to do it efficiently,

[Sam Murdoch]

Just to add a bit more to this discussion about attaching face frames with biscuits here is a link to a thread in which I and others have the same discussion. I include it here to save me from repeating myself. I wrote 2 posts in that thread - page 1 and on page 2 explaining my technique. It really is pretty easy to do. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183071-Pocket-Screws-or-Domino-s-for-Face-Frames/page2

I especially like that the cabinets can be built and ganged up without needing to handle each side, bottom, or top spreader to make slots or pocket screw holes etc. When I first started using biscuits this way I would take each separate piece of the face frame to the cabinets - locate and biscuit (dry fit) and slowly build my way around the cabinet working one fitted piece against the other. After all the pieces were fitted I would then reassemble the face frame up side down on the bench glued and screwed with pocket screws. Then take the assembled ff to the cabinet for final attachment.

These days, with more experience and so more confidence, I simply build my entire face frame on the bench then take it to the assembled and ganged cabinets. Lay it on - mark it out - slot the opposing sides and ... as I wrote in the other thread - all with no additional screws. For me, it is a very efficient method.

[George Bokros]

I use a Sommerfeldt tongue and groove router bit set to cut a tongue on the cabinet side and a groove in the face frame. It is designed for 3/4" material and depending on which way you orient the face frame to the cabinet side it is either flush with the side or proud of the cabinet side.

[Michael W. Clark]

I built the boxes first on the last cabinets that I did, never again. Takes up way too much room. I'll build the FF first, let everything else follow and build the boxes last. All you need is the FF dimensions to build the doors, drawers and applied drawer fronts.

[Sam Murdoch]

I built the boxes first on the last cabinets that I did, never again. Takes up way too much room. I'll build the FF first, let everything else follow and build the boxes last. All you need is the FF dimensions to build the doors, drawers and applied drawer fronts.

Actually this is what I do to though my post above suggests that my cabinets are sitting around waiting for the face frames. I work by the numbers and so have no issues building doors and drawers first or face frames first or boxes first. It is a matter of convenience and often times a function of the finishing schedule.

[William C Rogers]

I had never build a cabinet and when I started I looked at all of the various methods of building them. Pocket screw and glue, but don't want to see the pocket holes and would not always be able to hide them. Biscuit joint and glue may not provide enough strength (opinion and don't really know). Using dowels would be very tricky. I ended up building mine the same as George with the Sommerfeld tongue and groove. I build the face frame first and use glue and pocket screws as they are somewhat hidden. I then build the boxes, doors, and drawers. I am only building for myself and using the tongue and groove gives me much more surface area for glue. I feel this is a much stronger cabinet. I can orient the side flush to the outside or inside for drawer mounting. I wouldn't know if it was quicker, and I doubt that it is quicker, but I was looking for a strong cabinet. For strength this meets my expectations.

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff,
so what happens when you want the face frame flush with the cabinet side?

I don't:D

Or for a better answer....I almost never have a faceframe flush to the side anymore. If it's a finished end it gets a panel. For nicer cabinets I'll use a wraparound panel, which is certainly a different matter as it's more work to execute correctly. Cabinets in a run always have a small overhang of 1/4". And cabinets that get put against a wall have a little extra overhang for scribe. I simply avoid any situation where I have just a plain flush side to the cabinet....it gets worked out in the design phase;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

Well, I must be doing something wrong. It only takes me a few minutes per cabinet to layout & cut the biscuits. I do not see how it would be quicker to cut all of the rabbets, dados, pocket holes & then plug all of the exposed pocket holes. But that is why there are different ways of doing things. I just do not agree with stating that a process has no place in cabinetmaking, just because someone cannot figure out how to do it efficiently,

If it works for you go for it:D

There's a reason shops that build a lot of cabinets don't use biscuits, but instead use systems similar to what I explained.....and it's not b/c biscuits are more efficient, or b/c they haven't "figured it out". Shops that have to make money to stay in business generally find efficient ways of doing things. FWIW I never stated any "process has no place in woodworking"....I'll happily defend my words....just not yours:p What I did say is there's a better way to do it than using biscuits. That's my opinion and you may choose to disagree, but you should at least try to understand it before you disagree. There are no rabbets to cut, nor pocket holes to plug. The pocket holes are placed where they will not be seen in the finished product as the top, bottom and exterior sides are never seen. It's simply running dados in both stiles of the faceframe and drilling pocket holes where needed. Simple as could be with virtually no layout work required;)

However my point was not to try and change your mind, but to offer the OP an easier way of doing something. If you have a system that works and your happy with it that's great! If on the other hand your like me and need to find more efficient ways of getting work out the door, you may want to open yourself up to new ides once in a while....you just never know what you'll find;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Chris Rosenberger]

If it works for you go for it:D

There's a reason shops that build a lot of cabinets don't use biscuits, but instead use systems similar to what I explained.....and it's not b/c biscuits are more efficient, or b/c they haven't "figured it out". Shops that have to make money to stay in business generally find efficient ways of doing things. FWIW I never stated any "process has no place in woodworking"....I'll happily defend my words....just not yours:p What I did say is there's a better way to do it than using biscuits. That's my opinion and you may choose to disagree, but you should at least try to understand it before you disagree. There are no rabbets to cut, nor pocket holes to plug. The pocket holes are placed where they will not be seen in the finished product as the top, bottom and exterior sides are never seen. It's simply running dados in both stiles of the faceframe and drilling pocket holes where needed. Simple as could be with virtually no layout work required;)

However my point was not to try and change your mind, but to offer the OP an easier way of doing something. If you have a system that works and your happy with it that's great! If on the other hand your like me and need to find more efficient ways of getting work out the door, you may want to open yourself up to new ides once in a while....you just never know what you'll find;)

good luck,
JeffD

I have been there & done that.
I have no interest in just getting things out the door fast. I want the cabinets I build to last. I installed cabinets for over 18 years, before I started building cabinets. You can learn alot installing different kinds of cabinets. The cabinets that had the most problem were ones built using your process. That is why I use my method. I have been building cabinets using my process for over 20 years & have never had a cabinet failure.
I did not putdown your methods of doing your cabinets, so do not putdown mine.

[Jeff Duncan]

Chris, you asked the question, I answered it. Then you insinuated I couldn't "figure out how to do it efficiently", without actually understanding the method first, and put words in my mouth I never said? Now your accusing me of putting your method down? You don't like my method, that's fine as I said my point was not to change your mind. Your entitled to use any method you so desire. I never put your method down, I stated the case for why I believe my method is better....which is in actuality the reason these Forums exist.

FWIW I started out working in a high end commercial shop doing stuff for restaurants, schools, museums etc. etc., and learned a lot from those guys. Then went to work installing box cabinets for about 5 years before starting out on my own.....BTDT and came away with a different experience than you did....that's all. One thing I've learned is everyone has their own way of doing things. I explained mine, and then I explained where I got it, why I use it, and why I feel it's better....that's all I can do. Everyone is still free to build however they like. I'm still learning and always looking for new ways or quicker ways to do things which is why I come to these forums in the first place. Sounds like your perfectly content with your method, so not sure why you feel the need to keep quoting my posts???

good luck,
JeffD

[Derek Arita]

When i started this thread, I didn't mean for it to go this way...i just had some questions. Thanks for your replies. I learn every time I read about a different way of doing things. I also learn when I hear about the most common ways of doing things. Point is, I think we're enthusiastic about the way we do things and sometimes it sounds like a put down to other ways...I don't take it that way and look at it for what it is...enthusiasm.
Don't anyone stop posting about what works best for them...don't anyone take offense unless offense is truly intended...too much crap going on in the world to squabble about this...besides...it's Christmas! Thanks again for the lessons!

[Sam Murdoch]

Thank you Derek - and you're welcome :). Merry Christmas.

[Dan Chouinard]

I use jeff's method. Like taking candy from a baby. Too easy. No mess, no fuss.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all. Even the biscuit guys.

[Julie Moriarty]

Are you still in the design phase? If so ditch the biscuits altogether, just not a good place for them.

For assembling the face frames, biscuits are a bad choice. Pocket holes work much better and are easier.