chisel quality

[John Piwaron]

I’m a little disappointed.

I’ve noticed that I’m sharpening my Sorby chisels fairly often. Bench and Mortise. Even then, they don’t stay sharp for long. The edge begins rolling fairly quickly.

I checked the angle I’ve sharpened them at. That’s not too shallow. It's about 30 degrees. Some are higher. But then I checked the Rockwell hardness. There’s the problem. Rc58 near the cutting end. That’s it. Kind of soft for what they do. Rc56 about 2 inches back.

For comparison’s sake I checked a chisel I have that’s likely older than I am. It’s the only one I have from my wife’s carpenter uncle. It was made by Buck Brothers. Probably nothing more than a plain old run of the mill hardware store item at the time it was new. Judging by the handle it’s clearly seen plenty of hard use. It’s Rc63.5 near the cutting end, Rc59.7 about 2 inches back. This one doesn't see the stone very often. :)

Sorby chisels say Sheffield steel. Then I notice that the marketing blurb for them on the Woodcraft site doesn’t mention anything at all about hardness. But Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen and the Japan Woodworker do. The LV and L-N say 60 – 62Rc. The Japanese chisels are Rc65.

So I've ordered 2 chisels from L-N to try them out.

I’m also going to keep a watch for those old Buck Bros. chisels. They seem worth having.

[David Weaver]

If you're looking for better chisels, you'll find them in the current premium and in the vintage chisels.

58 hardness in a simple steel should be hard enough, but maybe the alloy is more of a chrome vanadium. AT any rate, Sorby chisls have been criticized fairly regularly as being soft or having edges that roll too easily.

Many of the japanese chisels are a little softer than they say they are (a buddy of mine with access to a hardness tester tested a few). I think Stan Covington mentioned that he'd found from makers that as more of their customers are hobby woodworkers, they were getting too many complaints about how hard it is to sharpen a chisel that's actually 65 hardness. The ones we tested were closer to 62 (this didn't include any premium chisels, just the ones that are about $45 each), which probably makes for a nicer chisel for the average woodworker, anyway.

At any rate, if it's not holding up at 30 degrees, you're doing what you need to do in trying something else.

[Jim Koepke]

My Buck Brothers chisels are my favorites for staying sharp and being good users.

My only Sorby chisels are for my lathe. Two of the three do seem to dull quicker than others.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

Try the new Lee Valley powered metal chisels. Buy one and see how it works for you. I find them to hold up better than the LN chisels.

Mike

[george wilson]

Hardness is not the only gauge about chisel quality. There is also carbon content. I suspect Sorby has been using lower carbon content steel,because they are always bad about edge holding.

Sheffield steel means nothing,either. Some places have been sliding on their reputations for 200 years. Same for german Solingen steel.

Sears chisels made in Holland were found to have the incredibly LOW carbon content of .50% in a FWW study several years ago. That's just enough to harden,but wear resistance is very poor at that low a carbon content. 1095 spring steel,which all the good,individual saw makers have been using,is 1.95% carbon. That is a decent steel. However,in chisels(that aren't made to be springs),it is possible to add other alloys like vanadium,manganese,chrome,etc.. These alloys add various good properties to tool steels,such as increased wear resistance and toughness.

The new PM chisels by LV represent a new plateau in quality tool making. Powdered metal tech allows the formulating of super alloys that cannot be made by the normal means of just melting them into the steel. Plus,the LV PM tools are cryo treated,which is a substantial leap in tool quality as well. I certainly like my PM block plane blade. If you can afford them,they would be a great investment(in terms of woodworking use).

[Mel Fulks]

John, you have taken a Great Leap Forward ,but it's not just Buck Brothers.Any of the old ones marked "cast steel" are usually good and worth buying ,especially at a low price. BB brand has a lot of collectors who at times elevate their price.I don't buy any of the newer BB, as they are not cast steel.

[Jeff Heath]

New chisels like Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, Blue Spruce, etc.....are all beautiful chisels, and you won't be disappointed no matter which you choose. However, they are, like all high quality items these days, kind of pricey, nearing 75 bucks or so, give or take, per chisel.

If you're diligent and you don't mind used, older tools, you can easily put together quality sets for yourself that will cost a fraction of 75 bucks per copy. Stay away from the collector brands like Stanley 750's, Witherby's, etc.....and look for brands like Greenlee (older only), PS&W, etc....this list has been compiled many times on the internet before. The quality of the steel is mostly excellent in these older chisels, and you can get chisels for $10 to $15 apiece. I've got a great working set of Greenlee chisels I've compiled 2 to 3 at a time, and now have 12 or so. They all needed a little more work than usual getting their backs flat, and the bevels square, but that's a one time labor expense. They stay very sharp for as long as any of the pricey ones, and you can put together an entire set for yourself for under $100.

Later on, once you've decided what you prefer in a chisel handle, you can turn yourself a matching set of handles in the length and thickness you desire and have a beautiful "matched set" of chisels that feel good in your hand, cut well, stay sharp, and cost under $100 and few pieces of scrap hardwood.

Or, if you prefer instant oatmeal, scratch a check for $350 to LN and never look back. 20 years from now, they'll still be worth the money.

Jeff

[Jonathan McCullough]

I have some new wooden-handled Buck Bros bench chisels from Craftsman Studios, still made in USA, and they're just great. The steel takes a very keen edge and holds up very well, though I believe it's only rated to 58-59. The backs weren't precision-ground like some premium brands, but polished up relatively quickly. The 2" chisel was a bit tedious, but easier to flatten than most of the old chisels I happen to find, and it's one of the handiest ones to have around, like a pocket knife with a handle perpendicular to the edge for extra control. I like to use it to break edges on curves, cut twine, pick my teeth, you know. The handles have a nice balance to them, but the shape is not as ergonomic as some old style Bucks, and they sport leather washers. The urethane mallet I use is pretty kind to chisel handles, but if you use a wooden mallet the leather washers might be an asset. I also like that they have tangs instead of sockets. In my shop, even well-seated socket chisels can get loose, and maybe it's just me, but I sometimes have been known to pick up a socket chisel and get a little pinch on the first mallet-blow.

[Mike Henderson]

John, you have taken a Great Leap Forward ,but it's not just Buck Brothers.Any of the old ones marked "cast steel" are usually good and worth buying ,especially at a low price. BB brand has a lot of collectors who at times elevate their price.I don't buy any of the newer BB, as they are not cast steel.
There's nothing really special about cast steel. Cast steel was just a technique for producing good tool steel about 100 years ago. But what was good tool steel back then might be considered inferior steel today.

I have a set of Swan "cast steel" chisels and a set of Witherby's. I've tested both against modern chisels with modern steel and neither is as good as the modern chisels.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

Cast steel was pretty special, started to catch on around 1800 and stopped being made almost a hundred years ago. The best description of its quality and complicated mfg.is in the 11th edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica which I've been told is free online. Look up "iron and steel" and find the section on "crucible steel". It has been stated that the new LV stuff is superior and some of the other expensive chisels are superior. There are some old name chisels (being made by new people) that are worthless. Cast steel will be a revelation to any one wanting quality stuff at an affordable price.Often they are soft for an. 1/8 inch or so because someone let them get too hot while grinding them. Cast steel razors still get good reviews. Lets see what others report back after trying some CS.

[David Posey]

George, I was under the impression that 1095 was .95% carbon, not 1.95%, and that the last two numbers (at least for the 10XX range) approximated the percentage of carbon. Is this correct?

One would think if the Sorby chisels were alloyed properly, that it would add to their performance instead of degrading it. I know the Narex chisels are advertised as having a Chrome-Manganese alloy, and they hold an edge well after the first few sharpenings. By many reports the Sorbys are chisel shaped objects, rather than actual tools.

[Mike Henderson]

There are some other good references on cast steel, one of the best being "Steel Making Before Bessemer, Volume 2 - Crucible Steel" by K. C. Barraclough. The problems our ancestors had with steel, prior to the late 19th century, was their inability to analyze the components of the steel. The recipes for cast steel were primarily just guesses as to what would produce the best steel. Their problem was that the components of the melt were usually not the same from batch to batch and they couldn't analyze the melt to determine what to do to modify it. They used iron from Sweden because it usually produced a better steel but they didn't know why. It was the same problem that Bessemer had when he developed his process. His initial tests were run with Swedish iron and were successful. Later attempts to run the process with local (English) iron failed and it took years to figure out why.

When you read the steel making history of that time, you see buyers time and time again complaining about the quality of the steel. They say things like, "Please send me more steel like the first shipment. Your recent shipment of steel was unacceptable." It was because the steel makers could not adequately control the process.

Mike

[Jason Coen]

Compared to the steels available today, there is nothing metalurgically remarkable about cast steel.

[Jason Coen]

When you read the steel making history of that time, you see buyers time and time again complaining about the quality of the steel. They say things like, "Please send me more steel like the first shipment. Your recent shipment of steel was unacceptable." It was because the steel makers could not adequately control the process.

Mike

Which is why it is my supposition that the cast steel chisels that are around today were the chisels made from the "good" batches. The chisels that came from the "poor" batches of steel were simply ground/sharpened up long ago.

[Mike Henderson]

Which is why it is my supposition that the cast steel chisels that are around today were the chisels made from the "good" batches. The chisels that came from the "poor" batches of steel were simply ground/sharpened up long ago.
I have often said the same thing.

Mike

[Sam Takeuchi]

Which is why it is my supposition that the cast steel chisels that are around today were the chisels made from the "good" batches. The chisels that came from the "poor" batches of steel were simply ground/sharpened up long ago.

Not necessarily. Buying vintage chisels and/or plane blades is a shot in the dark at best. Just because they survived through time doesn't provide least assurance to their quality.

[Mel Fulks]

good info Mike. Certainly true that some was better than others ,but the mid to late. 19 th century stuff is the best period for CS and one of the points stressed in the article was that even though it was more expensive than the Bessemer stuff it was still so superior it was still needed.At the time the article was written only 80 pounds of CS could be made at one time. Not 80 pounds of tools ,80 pounds of steel that still need to be forged ,hardened, and tempered. Butcher had one of the best reputations and their tools were even sold by competitors producing their own tools. David has a well deserved reputation too .When he says edges fold over because the steel is too soft ,some creekers are going to try something new.I predict we will soon see some posts saying "wish I had tried CS earlier".I paid 80$ back in the 1980s for 4 Euro new chisels that are a well known brand ....what a waste of money for paint openers.

[george wilson]

David,you are quite correct ! Hasty senior moment. The 1 means iron. The 0 means nothing else (like alloys.) The last 2 letters(95) indicate the carbon content. 1.95 carbon content would be turning the metal into cast iron,almost. it is indeed .95 carbon.

I'll have to agree with Mike's assessment. Cast steel was,in itself,nothing special. It was the first way that solid ingots of high carbon steel could be produced. It was invented in the 18th.C. by a watch maker who was frustrated with his springs breaking because they had silicon inclusions in them. His name was Benjamin Huntsman. He made his setup in his back yard,which was surrounded by a high wall. All materials had to be carried through his house to access the back yard. Must have been a VERY dirty house!! Briefly,his process consisted of mixing wrought iron with charcoal in crucibles and melting the contents over high heat. Then,the molten steel would be poured into an ingot mold to harden.

This process was kept secret until he,out of kindness,hired a derelict to give him a job. The derelict was a spy,who learned the secret and carried it out into the open.

For many,many years,until pretty recent times,this was the way tool steel was made in England. Crucibles were even made in house. The clay had to be spread upon a clean floor in a room and trod upon by barefooted workers until every bit of rock,or hard bits was found and gotten rid of. I think the crucibles were good for only 1 firing(this is all from memory). The jagged topped used crucibles were mortared along the tops of high brick walls to keep boys out!! Imagine trying that today!!!

Whether or not the steel was good depended entirely upon the skilled guesswork of the makers. They depended upon imported Swedish "hoop iron" for the best quality wrought iron,and there were several different grades and brands of that. The English did not know why their own metal was not as good,but eventually it was discovered that sulfur from the coal they used was making their iron bad. Even in the time if the Titanic,not much was known about making the best quality steel. This contributed in a very major way to the sinking of that ship from the steel being too brittle at low temperatures.

With the best judgement and materials,cast steel can be excellent,indeed,but it all depended upon the skill and judgement(and sobriety) of those making it.

Having worked as toolmaker I repaired and re hardened and re tempered many an antique chisel,plane blade,or knife bought by other craftsmen for their own use in Wmsbg.. I found welded bits coming loose,steel bending like a fish hook and other problems with even good brands like Witherby. All old cast steel and tools made from it are not of equal,or even of good quality. Quality control was very dependent upon individuals. Nothing was known about chemistry until about 1830. It was all guesswork. All kinds of extra,worthless ingredients were added to steel. Urine from a red headed boy,from a wine drinking friar,and a lot of other stuff was included in secret,favorite recipes. These recipes included carbon bearing material,which did the real trick. Without it,no steel was made.

These days,we have the knowledge and the materials to make the best steel ever made. Trying to maximize profits often dominate decisions. Sometimes fear of liability governs the making of tools like chisels,and some makers make them soft so that a shard of steel won't break off into someone's eye and cause a lawsuit. The lawyers ruin so much stuff it is pathetic. Even coffee must not be too hot for some idiot to burn himself/herself on,while trying to drive holding it between their legs!! It's just silly.

[David Weaver]

By cast steel, Mel is talking about the crucible steel, vs. bessemer processed stuff that had the branding on it.

[John Piwaron]

Try the new Lee Valley powered metal chisels. Buy one and see how it works for you. I find them to hold up better than the LN chisels.

Mike

Would have. Their web page says sold out 'till Feb 2013

[Mike Henderson]

good info Mike. Certainly true that some was better than others ,but the mid to late. 19 th century stuff is the best period for CS and one of the points stressed in the article was that even though it was more expensive than the Bessemer stuff it was still so superior it was still needed.At the time the article was written only 80 pounds of CS could be made at one time. Not 80 pounds of tools ,80 pounds of steel that still need to be forged ,hardened, and tempered. Butcher had one of the best reputations and their tools were even sold by competitors producing their own tools. David has a well deserved reputation too .When he says edges fold over because the steel is too soft ,some creekers are going to try something new.I predict we will soon see some posts saying "wish I had tried CS earlier".I paid 80$ back in the 1980s for 4 Euro new chisels that are a well known brand ....what a waste of money for paint openers.
I don't mean to be flip, but almost any steel was better than Bessemer steel. The only advantage of the Bessemer process was that it could produce a LOT of steel, but the process control was very poor. While the Bessemer process was used for quite a long time, the open hearth process was preferred for better "commercial quality" steel. But even that was not good enough for tool steel and the crucible process survived for a long time (but at a decreasing output - the last crucible furnace closed only in the 1960's). The electric arc furnace gradually replaced the crucible process because it could be better controlled, including the atmosphere in the furnace.

A lot of people seem to think that old is better, but in steel, the modern steels are a lot more uniform and a lot better than anything our ancestors had.

Mike

[Added note: A lot of the Bessemer steel went into rails for railroads. The railroads were expanding rapidly about the time of Bessemer steel. For steel used in skyscrapers (which also came about in the same time frame) open hearth steel was usually specified. A Carnegie mill (Bessemer process) produced a very large I-beam for a building in Chicago and shipped it to Chicago on a train. When the I-beam arrived in Chicago, it was two beams - it had broken during the shipping. Once that story got around, no architect would allow Bessemer steel I-beams in their buildings.]

[Jason Coen]

Not necessarily. Buying vintage chisels and/or plane blades is a shot in the dark at best. Just because they survived through time doesn't provide least assurance to their quality.

Sure. But as a general rule for chisels, I feel pretty safe in buying one that has decent blade life. My vintage chisels seem to be generally better in the steel department than the what I've experienced with planes, for whatever the reason.

[Jason Coen]

I have often said the same thing.

Mike

At least I'm not waaaaaaaay out in left field with that idea. :)

[John Piwaron]

To explain a little about myself, I work in engineering at the design end of our stuff.

I understand that the alloy makes a huge difference between good and bad for the purpose it's being used in. That is, hardness is not the only thing. The problem is that as a user of one of these things, unless the chisel maker is forthcoming with the alloy their product made with, it's unlikely I'm going to know what it is short of sending it out for some analysis. I know of just such a place, but I'm not interested enough to spend that kind of money nor sacrifice a "chisel shaped object" (love that!) So mostly, hardness it is for a primary gauge of quality. Until I learn more. :)

Fortunately there's a hardness tester at work. When I measured the two I brought with me, beyond the numbers I got, I noticed a practical difference. the small dent was barely noticeable on the Buck Bros. but easily seen on the Sorby. I guess visual evidence of being relatively soft.

Besides the fine old tools out there, and the current L-N or LV, there's the Japanese stuff. The metal that's been folded over and over. a bar composed of many layers of steel. A claimed hardness of Rc65 - that's pretty hard. For steel. Some of the examples on japanwoodworker.com sell for north of $400. Others in the L-V range.

Can anyone speak to the super expensive versions of those chisels?

[Mike Henderson]

To explain a little about myself, I work in engineering at the design end of our stuff.

I understand that the alloy makes a huge difference between good and bad for the purpose it's being used in. That is, hardness is not the only thing. The problem is that as a user of one of these things, unless the chisel maker is forthcoming with the alloy their product made with, it's unlikely I'm going to know what it is short of sending it out for some analysis. I know of just such a place, but I'm not interested enough to spend that kind of money nor sacrifice a "chisel shaped object" (love that!) So mostly, hardness it is for a primary gauge of quality. Until I learn more. :)

Fortunately there's a hardness tester at work. When I measured the two I brought with me, beyond the numbers I got, I noticed a practical difference. the small dent was barely noticeable on the Buck Bros. but easily seen on the Sorby. I guess visual evidence of being relatively soft.

Besides the fine old tools out there, and the current L-N or LV, there's the Japanese stuff. The metal that's been folded over and over. a bar composed of many layers of steel. A claimed hardness of Rc65 - that's pretty hard. For steel. Some of the examples on japanwoodworker.com sell for north of $400. Others in the L-V range.

Can anyone speak to the super expensive versions of those chisels?
I'm not absolutely sure (I'm no expert on Japanese chisels) but I think the makers use modern steel for the cutting edge portion of the chisel. And I don't think they fold it over and over. I believe they just forge weld it to either a low carbon steel backing, or if they have access to old wrought iron, they use that. There's stories of Japanese chisel makers who have one or more old ship's anchors, made during the time when they were made from wrought iron.

Sword blades were made from steel that was folded many times, but that steel came from a different refining process. Maybe some one who knows Japanese tools and traditional steel making can provide an authoritative answer.

Mike

[I think one reason for some chisels costing maybe $400 is the artisan aspect of the tool, not that it's a much better cutting device.]

[John Piwaron]

the japanwoodworker site has some pix, not that they're the last word - the expensive one appears to be many layers. they also offer another that looks more traditional. Though it's the hard steel backed by soft steel.

Since I don't have $400 to throw around, whatever it is, artisan or not, will remain a mystery to me.

[David Weaver]

I'm not absolutely sure (I'm no expert on Japanese chisels) but I think the makers use modern steel for the cutting edge portion of the chisel. And I don't think they fold it over and over. I believe they just forge weld it to either a low carbon steel backing, or if they have access to old wrought iron, they use that. There's stories of Japanese chisel makers who have one or more old ship's anchors, made during the time when they were made from wrought iron.

Sword blades were made from steel that was folded many times, but that steel came from a different refining process. Maybe some one who knows Japanese tools and traditional steel making can provide an authoritative answer.

Mike

[I think one reason for some chisels costing maybe $400 is the artisan aspect of the tool, not that it's a much better cutting device.]

Modern steels are generally commercially produced. There are actually people smelting a tamahagane style bloom in the US now, and hitachi has listed a tamahagane type steel. I'm assuming the latter from hitachi is from a festival bloom (as in, people get together every once in a while to do it not as a commercial venture), or it's not exactly like tamahagane. The original stuff was made from sand iron and I'd imagine the heating with charcoal was done to add carbon and the repeated forge work was done to remove the impurities.

The wrought iron is scrap from various things, chains, building parts, etc. In plane irons, you will get a softer iron with more expensive tools usually. In chisels, I don't think you can use the softest wrought. But, yes, it's modern process mill steel most of the time for the cutting edge. Just cleaner and higher carbon content than US mill steel.

[Mike Henderson]

the japanwoodworker site has some pix, not that they're the last word - the expensive one appears to be many layers. they also offer another that looks more traditional. Though it's the hard steel backed by soft steel.

Since I don't have $400 to throw around, whatever it is, artisan or not, will remain a mystery to me.
It may be that the "many layers" is actually the backing material and not the cutting steel. Ones I've seen were that way.

Mike

[David Weaver]

the japanwoodworker site has some pix, not that they're the last word - the expensive one appears to be many layers. they also offer another that looks more traditional. Though it's the hard steel backed by soft steel.

Since I don't have $400 to throw around, whatever it is, artisan or not, will remain a mystery to me.

Like mike said, it's backing. Some of them look like pattern welded mild steel. Actually, they look like the mixes that are offered as damascus straight razors, which might be a carbon steel and stainless steel mix so that subjecting the steel to an oxidizer makes a big contrast.

Some of the other type (mokume) are acid etch wrought iron.

But the cutting edge is a piece of bar stock.

[Mel Fulks]

Mike ,cast steel was also superior to open hearth steel and is so stated in the Britanica write up ,its lower price did help end the reign of cast steel. I said I do not doubt the reports of others that the new steels are a great thing. I have mentioned a brand considered in its day to be tops and that has been mentioned by several creekers to be excellent. It looks like some believe a new 80$ chisel is good ,a 20$ new folding edge chisel is good ,but a 1$ to 20$ vintage chisel is not worth the risk. My purpose is only to say to those who are short of money ,you don't have to use a can opener for a chisel.

[Matt Radtke]

Even coffee must not be too hot for some idiot to burn himself/herself on,while trying to drive holding it between their legs!! It's just silly.:

To be fair to the person who burned herself, she was parked and attempting to remove the lid and add cream and sugar. Similarly, from the trial:

"McDonald’s manual required that coffee was to be brewed at 195-205 degrees and held in the pot at 180-190 degrees for optimal taste based off a consultant’s advice. " and "No evaluation of safety hazard at this temperature was conducted." and finally, "Home brewed coffee is brewed between 135-140 degrees."

If you think the case is subject to debate, I'm all for that, but lets debate what actually happened.

[george wilson]

My point really was that everyone is bent on getting to sue someone these days. This is because the lawyers only ever advertise it. It does affect many things,even the hardness of some chisel makers. Debate that.

[Matt Radtke]

My point really was that everyone is bent on getting to sue someone these days. This is because the lawyers only ever advertise it. It does affect many things,even the hardness of some chisel makers. Debate that.

I'd be willing to accept that point, though to be completely sure of it, I'd have to see documentation that says, "Bob, make the chisels softer. We don't want to get sued." It is entirely possible that chisels are actually harder than they used to be (I doubt it, but possible) or if they are indeed softer, it's because they are easier to sharpen, manufacture, or because ham-handed DIY-ers use them for everything but cutting wood and they are less likely to chip under such abuse.

Sincerely,

A Pendantic ***hole who lives by 'Correlation does not equal Causation.' :D

[David Weaver]

I can buy the reason that the japanese chisels are softer, because they're still 61-62 hardness. I believe some of the chisels I have are close to 65, though, but not my iyorois (I could be wrong, they have a soft wrought backing and that makes them seem easy to sharpen). The chisel I recall being 61 hardness that we tested, on the average of three strikes, was an iyoroi mortise chisel.

The softest chisel we tested was a long witherby chisel, one of the types that never seems to look anything but shiny (it was probably from the 50s or something). It was 53 hardness, and it was completely worthless. I have another older witherby that is harder and that actually corrodes.

Anyway, I think the new western chisels that are soft are that way because they think nobody cares, or they don't care. Six years ago, only a few western chisels offered a hardness spec. Now you pretty much have to. Sorby probably makes their money in turning tools and doesn't care that much, that's just my guess.

[george wilson]

I read somewhere that some chisel makers were doing that to avoid lawsuits. But,I can't remember exactly where any more than I can remember frivolous lawsuits. Maybe she should have sued the car manufacturer for not providing cup holders. I try to make it a point to NOT hold hot coffee between my legs when sweetening it,personally,and have never sues anyone,especially if it was caused by my own stupidity.:)

Did you Google that info so you'd have something to argue with me about? Sorry,it isn't that important.

The Sorby turning tools I used at work suckled of the great kielbasa,David. I had to reharden some of them. But,there's not much you can do if the steel is crummy.Maybe I should shut up before I get accused of hurting Sorby's feelings.:)

[Stanley Covington]

AT any rate, Sorby chisls have been criticized fairly regularly as being soft or having edges that roll too easily.

Many of the Japanese chisels are a little softer than they say they are (a buddy of mine with access to a hardness tester tested a few). I think Stan Covington mentioned that he'd found from makers that as more of their customers are hobby woodworkers, they were getting too many complaints about how hard it is to sharpen a chisel that's actually 65 hardness. The ones we tested were closer to 62 (this didn't include any premium chisels, just the ones that are about $45 each), which probably makes for a nicer chisel for the average woodworker, anyway.

David is right about Japanese chisels: they are getting softer. I have owned several sets of chisels, but since I tried a Kiyotada brand chisel, all others are as dross. However, back in 2009, most of my chisels were temporarily “misplaced” by the moving company, so I bought a set of Kiyohisa brand chisels made in Niigata from Hitachi white paper steel (plain carbon steel) to get by for a time. The Kiyohisa’s were recommended by the retailer, with the careful disclaimer that they were best currently available, but would NOT cut as well/long as the Kiyotada chisels I was accustomed to. The retailer knows I have full sets of butt, mortise, shinogi, kote, and otsuki chisels as well as a nice selection of tataki chisels by Kiyotada, so I have perhaps unreasonable expectations. I tuned and sharpened the Kiyohisa chisels and was immediately disappointed in their softness. When I complained, the retailer explained that Japanese chisel smiths had all reduced the hardness of their products to avoid complaints of chipped blades from amateur consumers that did not know how to properly sharpen/maintain chisels. I personally confirmed this point independently with two blacksmiths. No, I did not test the hardness with a Rockwell tester since I don’t have ready access to one now. The customer gets what the customer wants, I suppose.

I am not certain if consumer complaints have caused American and European manufacturers to reduce the hardness of their chisels, but a similar factor might have pissed in the punchbowl.

As you know, machinery has replaced every operation of professional/production woodworking once performed using handtools. Consequently, except for a tiny percentage, certainly far far less than .01% , consumers nowadays not only do not know how to sharpen chisels properly, but they can’t even tell the difference between a dull and sharp blade. But you can bet they can tell the difference between a dull blade and a chipped one, and that they consider a chipped chisel defective. This perception makes a hard chisel a consumer satisfaction/warranty problem. Since softer steel is tougher than hard steel (per materials science terminology), retailers and manufacturers receive fewer complaints and make more money making/selling chisels that dull easily but are less likely to chip.

Another problem, and one I know firsthand, is the adulteration of modern commercial steels with contaminants, such as silicon, chromium, nickel, moly, vanadium, and other crap originating in the scrap they use as a raw material. Of course, prior to melting, scrap is not sorted beyond the magnet and Mark 1 Eyeball, so all that bumper chrome, and machining scrap containing alloys ends up in the mix. This is perfectly acceptable for most applications, and modern steel mills and manufacturers (except for those in China and India and similar countries where cost always trumps honest QC) test and correct for contaminants, but they are in the mix nonetheless because they are not “removed,” they are simply “corrected for.” Without exception, the American, German, and Japanese manufacturers, including Hitachi, have the same problem. The most cost-effective way to avoid QC problems when using scrap metal steel to produce cutting tools is to maximize toughness by sacrificing hardness at the heat treating stage. Almost all consumers are tickled pink with the results.

The only practical alternative is to buy tools made from more expensive tool steel intended for cutlery, etc. Such steels are made using very precise procedures and under strict QC, and do not sell in huge amounts, so they are many times more expensive. A good tool will never be cheap (and never was) but a cheap tool can be very very expensive, so buy only from retailers that back their products with a money back guarantee. Not many of those around, heh. Also, be sure to complain long and loud about poor quality and tell everyone you know of quality problems you have experienced, even if that might anger forum advertisers.

I am told by those that analyze steel professionally that the purest, highest-quality, low-silicon (silicon is bad) high-carbon steel available today comes from Sweden, and is made NOT from scrap, but exclusively from virgin ore. It is more expensive, but I am told the Swedes have access to a better quality of iron ore than that available in the US or Europe. You may not know it, but the blade of your Japanese-made kaeba saw was stamped from a roll of this Swedish steel. Last month I bought my wife a $400 pair of handmade shears pounded out by a blacksmith here in Tokyo, and he bragged that he used only Swedish steel. They cut very well, thank you. In fact, while it is not well known, the famous toolmaker Chiyozuru Korehide used Swedish steel exclusively, a preference that irritated the Japanese tool-steel manufacturers greatly at the time.

Stan
248359248360

[David Weaver]

I don't know if the best modern steels are as good as the best crucible steel. They might be, but I think the best crucible steel era chisels that I have are as good as anything that I have.

I think the best razor steel I've seen is from around the turn of the century, and I think it is also crucible steel. It is better than what's sold as carbon steel for razors these days, but that may be due to the plainness of the alloy. 1900 solingen razors and 1900 US razors are as good as any I've seen anywhere. Razors of that vintage have finer steel than any tool I've used.

There are still good razors made now, though, but I don't know what they're made of (as in, I don't know what their carbon steel is). The new ones with branded steel are in the minority and are ridiculously expensive - I doubt they're really much better than the mytery steel carbon steel razors. The difference between the razor makers and the chisel makers may be that the razor makers are heating the razors in molten lead and quenching in oil. But I don't really know.

[David Weaver]

David is right about Japanese chisels: they are getting softer. I have owned several sets of chisels, but since I tried a Kiyotada brand chisel, all others are as dross. However, back in 2009, most of my chisels were temporarily “misplaced” by the moving company, so I bought a set of Kiyohisa brand chisels made in Niigata from Hitachi white paper steel (plain carbon steel) to get by for a time. The Kiyohisa’s were recommended by the retailer, with the careful disclaimer that they were best currently available, but would NOT cut as well/long as the Kiyotada chisels I was accustomed to. The retailer knows I have full sets of butt, mortise, shinogi, kote, and otsuki chisels as well as a nice selection of tataki chisels by Kiyotada, so I have perhaps unreasonable expectations. I tuned and sharpened the Kiyohisa chisels and was immediately disappointed in their softness. When I complained, the retailer explained that Japanese chisel smiths had all reduced the hardness of their products to avoid complaints of chipped blades from amateur consumers that did not know how to properly sharpen/maintain chisels. I personally confirmed this point independently with two blacksmiths. No, I did not test the hardness with a Rockwell tester since I don’t have ready access to one now. The customer gets what the customer wants, I suppose.

I am not certain if consumer complaints have caused American and European manufacturers to reduce the hardness of their chisels, but a similar factor might have pissed in the punchbowl.

As you know, machinery has replaced every operation of professional/production woodworking once performed using handtools. Consequently, except for a tiny percentage, certainly far far less than .01% , consumers nowadays not only do not know how to sharpen chisels properly, but they can’t even tell the difference between a dull and sharp blade. But you can bet they can tell the difference between a dull blade and a chipped one, and that they consider a chipped chisel defective. This perception makes a hard chisel a consumer satisfaction/warranty problem. Since softer steel is tougher than hard steel (per materials science terminology), retailers and manufacturers receive fewer complaints and make more money making/selling chisels that dull easily but are less likely to chip.

Another problem, and one I know firsthand, is the adulteration of modern commercial steels with contaminants, such as silicon, chromium, nickel, moly, vanadium, and other crap originating in the scrap they use as a raw material. Of course, prior to melting, scrap is not sorted beyond the magnet and Mark 1 Eyeball, so all that bumper chrome, and machining scrap containing alloys ends up in the mix. This is perfectly acceptable for most applications, and modern steel mills and manufacturers (except for those in China and India and similar countries where cost always trumps honest QC) test and correct for contaminants, but they are in the mix nonetheless because they are not “removed,” they are simply “corrected for.” Without exception, the American, German, and Japanese manufacturers, including Hitachi, have the same problem. The most cost-effective way to avoid QC problems when using scrap metal steel to produce cutting tools is to maximize toughness by sacrificing hardness at the heat treating stage. Almost all consumers are tickled pink with the results.

The only practical alternative is to buy tools made from more expensive tool steel intended for cutlery, etc. Such steels are made using very precise procedures and under strict QC, and do not sell in huge amounts, so they are many times more expensive. A good tool will never be cheap (and never was) but a cheap tool can be very very expensive, so buy only from retailers that back their products with a money back guarantee. Not many of those around, heh. Also, be sure to complain long and loud about poor quality and tell everyone you know of quality problems you have experienced, even if that might anger forum advertisers.

I am told by those that analyze steel professionally that the purest, highest-quality, low-silicon (silicon is bad) high-carbon steel available today comes from Sweden, and is made NOT from scrap, but exclusively from virgin ore. It is more expensive, but I am told the Swedes have access to a better quality of iron ore than that available in the US or Europe. You may not know it, but the blade of your Japanese-made kaeba saw was stamped from a roll of this Swedish steel. Last month I bought my wife a $400 pair of handmade shears pounded out by a blacksmith here in Tokyo, and he bragged that he used only Swedish steel. They cut very well, thank you. In fact, while it is not well known, the famous toolmaker Chiyozuru Korehide used Swedish steel exclusively, a preference that irritated the Japanese tool-steel manufacturers greatly at the time.

Stan
248359248360

Good swedish steel reminds me of vintage steel. I have had two things made from it, and still have one (an ogata blade and subblade that I put in a long dai). The other was an iwasaki razor, that I think maybe wasn't quite right. But it was a steel very compliant to natural stones, as a plain steel would be. The ogata blade isn't monstrously hard compared to some that I use, but it unreal how good the edge is. If I were buying chisels again, they would be swedish, I think. It definitely isn't as wear resistant as some steels, but that's what you'd expect when it's relatively plain material.

The hardest to sharpen iron I have is actually a mosaku. It is white #1, but it is incredibly incredibly hard.

[george wilson]

I read an article many years ago,with microphotographs,about an old razor used in a mining camp during the gold rush in 1849. It was such a good razor,everyone in the camp started using it. The current owner decided to sacrifice it to see why it was so good. They found that this razor had steel cleaner than modern aircraft steel!! So,that was a good old piece of steel for sure. I've still fixed a lot of ill made antique chisels,though.

As I mentioned,Swedish iron was the preferred stuff long ago. They scooped a lot of bog ore from a lake bottom in Sweden,standing on boats and using long handled scoops. Then,they smelted it with charcoal. It was sold for various prices per ton,some brands or grades costing considerably more than others. Bars were stamped pretty deep with the brand names.

Sand iron is about the lowest grade of ore you can get. Just loaded with silicon. A tribute to the efforts of the skilled Japanese smiths who had to refine the crud out of it very laboriously. Japan did not have a lot of resources available to them on their islands.They had tin mines,but in modern times relied on our scrap metal,at least for making their weapons,ships,planes,etc..

[Mel Fulks]

Those who are young seem to believe everything is getting better with technology ,but some things have been going downhill for a long time .Some of us by junk sealed in super hard plastic ,when we find out its junk ,and have destroyed the fine plastic ,we are reluctant to drive back to the store and stand in line to return it. When the average customer made a living with the tools he bought ,selling him junk was more risky.

[Mike Henderson]

Those who are young seem to believe everything is getting better with technology ,but some things have been going downhill for a long time .Some of us by junk sealed in super hard plastic ,when we find out its junk ,and have destroyed the fine plastic ,we are reluctant to drive back to the store and stand in line to return it. When the average customer made a living with the tools he bought ,selling him junk was more risky.
Your comment leads us into another area, which is defining quality. W. Edward Deming defined quality as "Quality is what the customer says it is!" Another way of putting it is "Quality is meeting the needs of the customer." Some people desire tools with the absolute best steel, processed in the finest manner, even if it's at a high price. Others desire a tool that will do the job they need to get done, even if they discard the tool after that one use, but priced at a level that they can afford.

Both are high quality tools, by Deming's definition. The problem comes in when the first person purchases a tool designed for the second person.

We have plenty of tools designed to meet both needs, and a lot of needs in between, available to us today. We just have to make sure we buy what we really want.

Mike

[Matt Radtke]

Did you Google that info so you'd have something to argue with me about? Sorry,it isn't that important.


The details were rattling around in my head, but I like to be accurate, so yes and no.

[Stanley Covington]

Good swedish steel reminds me of vintage steel. I have had two things made from it, and still have one (an ogata blade and subblade that I put in a long dai). The other was an iwasaki razor, that I think maybe wasn't quite right. But it was a steel very compliant to natural stones, as a plain steel would be. The ogata blade isn't monstrously hard compared to some that I use, but it unreal how good the edge is. If I were buying chisels again, they would be swedish, I think. It definitely isn't as wear resistant as some steels, but that's what you'd expect when it's relatively plain material.

The hardest to sharpen iron I have is actually a mosaku. It is white #1, but it is incredibly incredibly hard.

Fascinating. I too own a straight (Western style) razor made for me by Mr. Iwasaki of tamahagane. Excellent razor indeed!

I looked at a Mosaku shiage plane at Suiheiya a few weeks ago, but didn't buy it, purchasing one made from blue paper steel by Mr. Usui from Tsuchida's instead. Do you think your Mosaku is so extremely hard intentionally, or was it an error? Does the edge crumble?

Stan

[David Weaver]

I looked at a Mosaku shiage plane at Suiheiya a few weeks ago, but didn't buy it, purchasing one made from blue paper steel by Mr. Usui from Tsuchida's instead. Do you think your Mosaku is so extremely hard intentionally, or was it an error? Does the edge crumble?

Stan

The edge holds up well on the mosaku, I think it was intentionally made that hard, but I don't have a second one to compare it to. I've seen various translated bits that say he still works the old way like Usui. But they're all translated, and who knows what's true. If some of the revered makers heated the irons in a vacuum gas furnace and made them hard that way, I wouldn't know the difference. Mosaku's work is very crisp, though, very skilled.

[David Weaver]

Speaking of the makers and the techniques:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KaeQxEr30Q&feature=youtu.be

Another one courtesy of Mark Hennebury. The beginning is Ouchi forge welding and sizing chisel blanks, and toward the end of the video is a now deceased dai maker named Hisao. The chisel making parts start around 5:00.

Right at the one hour mark, you get to see how fast a skilled maker like Hisao works through macassar ebony with a chisel. The cuts he takes out of it are absolutely enormous.

I was discussing something metallurgy related with george a while ago, and I was surprised that I'd read that the idea of compacting the grain of a chisel or any other edge tool before heat treating and tempering has been debunked or partially debunked. George, correct me if I'm wrong about that, but I had always thought there would be a big advantage to a maker hammering a tool incessantly before heat treating because of the theory of compacting the grain.

At any rate, you can see Ouchi forge welding and sizing a chisel, even if the benefit of the hammer work really is more in shape and the quality of the forge weld, and less in compacted grain structure and toughness.

[Jim Koepke]

Compared to the steels available today, there is nothing metalurgically remarkable about cast steel.

My knowledge of different steels is next to nothing.

One thing that comes to mind is the variations in the composition and treatment of "old steel."

This makes me think that in most cases, steel production was uneventful. Yet in some cases a batch of extraordinary steel may have been produced and used in the making of tools. A few of my old tools seem to surpass the performance of any of the others even those from the same maker.

My first concern is my tools do what they are supposed to do without requiring a lot of maintenance. My second concern is that they comfortable to use. If it meets these criteria, all the theoretical matters can remain in the realm of others.

jtk

[george wilson]

Yes,David,some say it is of no use to compress the steel to below red heat. Old time blacksmiths believed it was useful. I used to. Cannot recall that conversation,but I think this belief has been proven false.

[Ethan Liou]

[...] amateur consumers that did not know how to properly sharpen/maintain chisels.

This is me. I'll admit it. I have a few Japanese chisels. Not very good ones, though. I constantly chipped the blades. It took me way too long before I realize there must be something wrong with how I use or sharpen them.

I can create an razor sharp edge on the chisel. On my Japanese chisel I don't use micro-bevels. And yet I am still suffering from chipped blade all the time.

Stan, could you talk a bit more on sharpening/using Japanese chisels? Thank you.

[Stanley Covington]

This is me. I'll admit it. I have a few Japanese chisels. Not very good ones, though. I constantly chipped the blades. It took me way too long before I realize there must be something wrong with how I use or sharpen them.

I can create an razor sharp edge on the chisel. On my Japanese chisel I don't use micro-bevels. And yet I am still suffering from chipped blade all the time.

Stan, could you talk a bit more on sharpening/using Japanese chisels? Thank you.

Ethan:

I was talking on this very subject yesterday with a blacksmith in Sanjo who will probably make a small run of tools for me. We were talking about the acceptable range of hardness of the finished product.

It is not unusual for new chisels or planes to chip a bit when they are brand new because the steel at the end of the blade is often harder than the material just a little deeper into the blade. Some consider this a sign of a good quality blade. It is an acceptable fault so long as it goes away after a few sharpenings.

But if a few sharpenings doesn't solve the problem, then the next option is to increase the angle of the bevel to give the edge more support. Chisels intended to be struck with a hammer are subject to high forces, so typically the angle is from 30 to 28 degrees. Tsuki or paring chisels should not be so abused and are typically sharpened at 24 to 26 degrees. But don't focus too much on the "correct" angle, but rather on the angle that lets you cut effectively without chipping the blade. As I wrote in an earlier post on a different thread, this is one situation where a secondary bevel is acceptable. Try this first.

Of course, you want the bevel angle to be as small as possible without inducing chipping since the smaller the angle the better the blade cuts. This angle can vary depending on what you are cutting. For instance, when cutting mortices in sugar pine, 24 degrees may be perfect for your chisel, but when cutting the same mortise in Ipe, the edge may immediately exhibit small failures, either chipping if the blade is too hard for the angle, or rolling if it is too soft. In this case, 32 degrees might be required.

If increasing the angle doesn't solve the problem, I would replace those chisels. Sows ear, etc. Life is too short to f*k around with poor quality tools.

Another factor critical to edge longevity the advanced woodworker should consider is the degree of sharpness of his blade. The fact is that for most chopping work, a super-sharp edge is not critical to control or quality of the cut. After all, no one sees the inside of a mortise once the timber frame or furniture is assembled, so glass-smooth surfaces are not necessary. But if the material is extremely soft, like some pines or paulownia for instance, a really sharp edge is required to cut the wood cleanly without causing the wood to fail in shear and tear or crumble rather than cutting cleanly. On the other hand, if the wood is very hard, a sharpening job that cleanly removes as many of the microscopic "flags" of metal at the cutting edge as possible, and minimizes the size of the few that remain, will help the blade stay sharper longer. These "flags" are fragile metal projections that are produced during sharpening that are torn off during use. The bigger these flags, the more damage they do to the remaining edge when they are torn loose at their root. So a high polish using a good very fine grit finishing stone and a bit of a stropping will make your edge last significantly longer when chopping harder wood. This is where the expensive natural stones shine.

This point is key to understanding the mechanical difference between a knife and a chisel. A knife, if sharpened to the high degree that best serves a quality chisel or plane will not cut as well as a knife with a rougher edge and more flags, because these irregularities make the knife blade act like a saw, cutting meat and vegetable cells and even cardboard with less effort. This is why swordsmen were trained to pull their sword blades towards themselves once the blade was into the enemy's flesh. This is why sushi chefs pull their blades towards themselves when cutting a slab of tuna into sashimi. This is also why Japanese chefs don't sharpen their sashimi knives nearly as sharp as a diligent carpenter sharpens his plane. Unlike a knife or swrod, a plane blade or mortice chisel blade can't take advantage of the mechanical saw-like performance a rougher edge provides, and so functions most effectively with a more finely honed, cleaner edge.

A mistake even experienced people make when sharpening is to unintentionally reduce, or "lay down" the angle of the blade over many sharpenings. This occurs because a wider bevel is easier to keep stable when sharpening so we tend to "lay down" the blade. Also, we fear the edge grabbing the stone and gouging it and dulling the blade if we screw up and allow the blade to rotate too far forward, so laying it down feels more comfortable and requires less concentration. I have had perfectly good chisels misbehave and crumble because I didn't pay attention and let the angle become too shallow to support the edge properly. This is another case where, while embarrassing, a double bevel becomes a necessary evil. So you need to always pay attention to your angle.

Another problem I have experienced, especially when chopping hardwood, is edge failure, even outright chipping (egads!) when prying wood chips out of mortises. Some may disagree with me, but I have noticed that using the chisel edge to pry/scrape wood chips out of a mortise damages the edge. How could it not? The metal at the cutting edge of a chisel is very very thin, and fully supported over only a small angle. But if you scrape or pry with that very thin edge, you are applying relatively high forces on that thin metal (and flags) in an unsupported direction tearing off metal, dulling the edge, and maybe even chipping it. So I spend a little more time cutting, and a little less time sharpening, and save a little bit more of my expensive steel, by using the chisel only to cut, and using another dedicated tool, such as a sokozari, to hook out waste and scrape the mortise-in-progress.

I hope this is helpful.

Stan

[Ethan Liou]

I hope this is helpful.

Stan

Very helpful, Thank you, Stan. Actually I have tried to increase the blade from 20 degree to 22 degree (using a sharpening guide). I can see improvements, well, more or less. I think I'll bring the bevel further to 25 degree as you suggested. And yes, I do strop often.

The prying/scraping motion you pointed out might just be the cause of my chipped blade as I am recalling now. Although I use them mostly for paring, I think I did try to scrape out small chips out of the corner of a tenon.

Again, Thank you!

[Mike Holbrook]

It can be difficult to choose steel for tools. The main stat associated with these tools is Rockwell hardness. Unfortunately this scale does not always insure that you get what you are after. The knife guys talk about hardness vs toughness. Sometimes the very hard steels tend to chip easily on those thin edges, leaving a jagged dull edge quickly if used for tough work. A tougher steel will bend vs chip. A jack hammer would destroy a very hard steel very quickly, due to steel chipping off from the impact, so these kinds of tools typically use a little softer, tougher steel. Some steels are also very hard to sharpen. When choosing tool steels compromises have to be made to get the best steel to serve the unique needs of specific applications. If the steel is so hard that it is very hard to maintain an edge then it may be useless.

Lee Valley's information on their new PM-V11 tool steel suggests they did extensive practical testing for the factors that are desirable to those using the steel for specific wood working chores. Barr chisels are hand forged which is another way to customize the quality of the steel to the task. The point is, one should look further than a simple hardness scale in selection of this kind of tool.

[george wilson]

Exactly my point,Mike. Hardness and toughness are a balancing act. Too much of either results in not enough of the other. I have mentioned that when I was working every day with antique planes,I found that the irons I could just barely file with a new,fine cut file would hold an edge longer. If you think about it,a plane blade is subjected to tons more torture than any chisel. Every time you push the plane,you are cutting 2 feet of wood(on an average plank of wood). How many feet of wood are you cutting with a chisel? The worst torture for a chisel is mortising across the grain,wood species aside.