Where should the dogholes go?

[Joe Mindell]

Hey all,
I'm finally starting to make a real benchtop, a decade after getting started in woodworking (I've been working on a flexy, flat 2 x 4 top). I'm going to laminate 8/4 hard maple to make a fairly traditional top (~3" thick) with a tail vise and I'd like to put in square dog holes for work holding along the front (and in the tail vise). For the tail vise I'm using the Lee Valley hardware. I've been doing my reading and looking at lots of benches in FWW etc and I see several different solutions for how far from the front of the bench to run the dogholes. I was thinking of putting them in the back of the front lamination, which would put them about 1 1/4 inches from the front of the bench. Is this to close? Does anyone have any experience with these and a reccomendation? If I put the holes much further back, I have to make the tail vise wider to accomodate. Also, any reccomended dog hole dimensions? I expect to make my own wooden bench dogs, so I have some flexibility on size.

Thanks in advance!
J

[Jim Koepke]

I was thinking of putting them in the back of the front lamination, which would put them about 1 1/4 inches from the front of the bench. Is this to close? Does anyone have any experience with these and a reccomendation?

My recommendation would be to search here on SMC for what others have done.

The first section of the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs is on benches:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

Derek Cohen has a bench build posting on his web site with a warning of not making the same mistake he made with his dog hole strip. A very important read IMO.

Depending on how your tail vise will be set up should determine your dog hole placement. With a narrow chop, the dog holes aligned with the center of the vise screw will prevent any problems with racking. If you have a wide chop, then you can have two rows of dog holes. This is handy for holding larger work.

Another consideration is having the dog holes close enough to the edge to hold small pieces if you make molding or need to guide a plane's fence along the edge of a piece when plowing or rebating.

If there is any racking here is an idea that can help alleviate the problem:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183743-Anti-Rack-Spacer-Stack

My current bench is a commercially made product. One of the disadvantages is the dog holes are set far enough apart that they match the maximum vise screw travel. My preference would be to have them a bit closer together so there would be a choice between at least two dog holes versus the vise screw travel. With the screw you are buying, that may not be a problem. My vises have a short screw with only about 4" of useable travel.

jtk

[Bruce Page]

I don’t have a tail vise but I put the holes for my front vise starting at 4 ½ inches from the front edge. It works well for what I do.

[David Weaver]

I don't think you'll mind them close to the front like that. Most of the older european benches I've seen have them close to the front if there is only one vise, and if you're working right at the edge with small planes, you may appreciate the dog holes being that close, so long as you can retract the dogs partially and not plane them off.

You are talking about the outside of the hole being 1 1/4 inches from the front edge of the bench and not the center of the square doghole, right (which would put the edge somewhere around 7/8ths from the front of the bench).

You can always mount a second row further into the bench if you'd like to do that later, and use a surface vise or wedges to trap work, but I think you'll like them along the front.

[Joe A Faulkner]

In the Workbench Design Book, Schwarz suggests putting them as close to the front edge as possible (usually within 2 inches). On his Roubo he went 1.75" to the center of the dog hole (3/4" round) from the front and 4" OC spacing between holes. He commented he wished he would have gone 3" OC.

[Stanley Covington]

Bruce:

The force generated by your vice acts perpendicular to the benchtop laminations, or at least so it appears from the picture. Has this caused your laminations to separate?

Stan

[Bruce Page]

Stan, I haven't had any problems, but I don't over tighten. I use it mostly for dry fitting and sanding panels.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, I haven't had any problems, but I don't over tighten. I use it mostly for dry fitting and sanding panels. Thanks, Bruce. I had considered doing something similar but feared the potential results. Cheers.

[Russell Sansom]

This subject comes up fairly often. My dog holes are 1" from the front lip. They are 3/4" X 1". This geometry has worked perfectly for many decades. I work a good deal on high-precision woodwork and small parts. In my setup I wouldn't dream of using metal dogs. One accidental ding from a plane and I've cost myself an hour of work to restore the iron.
russ

[Don Dorn]

I guess everyone has to have them for the common operations they do. My first row is 1.5" from the front as I use combination planes quite a bit and this is handy for me. The second row is a mere 10" from the first row and it allows me to put battens across dogs for planing stops, etc. While I've never understood how someone can get by with one set quite a ways back from the front, I know it works some.

It's like the old Grandfather said to his grandson - "if we all liked the same things in this world, everyone would be after your Grandma"

[Joe Mindell]

Thanks all for the input. Sounds like it's not unreasonable to go close to the front and I'll proceed in that direction.

[Frank Drew]

This subject comes up fairly often. My dog holes are 1" from the front lip. They are 3/4" X 1". This geometry has worked perfectly for many decades. In my setup I wouldn't dream of using metal dogs. One accidental ding from a plane and I've cost myself an hour of work to restore the iron.
russ

What he said.

[Jim Koepke]

In my setup I wouldn't dream of using metal dogs. One accidental ding from a plane and I've cost myself an hour of work to restore the iron.

It is too easy to make round dogs using dowel stock and some glue for there to be any reason to purchase metal dogs IMO. With a lathe one can make custom dogs with round or flat faced heads.

Of course some folks may not want to "waste" the time it takes to cut a dowel, drill a hole for a piece of 1/4" dowel and apply a spot of glue. Do they have the time to restore an iron after nicking it on a metal dog?

Joe, there may be a limit to how close your dog holes are to your front edge. Close but not too close is the way to go.

If you use holdfasts it may be possible to cause separation along the front edge if you are not careful. My thought for this on my bench build will be to have a separate row of holes set in from the front for using my holdfasts.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I don’t have a tail vise but I put the holes for my front vise starting at 4 ½ inches from the front edge. It works well for what I do.

I hate looking at benches that are prettier than my furniture...:mad:
I would also make note to any builder about the light sources on this bench.

Even in a well-lit shop, additional lighting can be handy.

[Jim Matthews]

While my bench is nowhere near so pretty as Bruce's it is similar in design.

I like the mass a cabinet provides under the benchtop. It also makes retrieving the things I use most often a matter of opening a drawer.

I prefer to consider the front most board on my bench to be disposable, and don't put dog holes in it.
(It's a full 3" thick poplar, planed flush with the bench top with a perpendicular "face" for clamping.)

Because I "thought ahead" and made my bench ugly, I feel no compunction about nailing in fixtures or screwing down a batten when needed.
* My bench top was purchased as salvage from a welder, I flipped it over to use the painted black bottom surface. *

I set my bench up for hand tool use, and I think that two appliances make things easier;

A bench hook for crosscutting that rotates off the right hand side of my bench instead of a tail vise.
A Moxxon vise for elevating workpieces above waist level for easier handling (intended for dovetailing, but used for many applications).

I use dowel stock for bench dogs, but they're forever getting stuck.
I'm more likely to use something cast iron that won't change dimensions in my damp shop.

I have come to really like my holdfast, for the ease with which it can be cinched down or removed.