End Grain Tearout Woes on the Shooting Board

[Rich Seifert]

Hello all. I made a shooting board yesterday with the intent of being productive ... turned out to be a MAJOR time bust for me ... all I did was waste time making the board and troubleshooting, sharpening, etc.. Intent was to be micro-trim and square end-grain of foot-long parts a couple of inches wide.

I am using a Lie Nielsen Low-Angle Jack Plane with a Hot Dog (for the shooting board), within which, the blade is bed at 12*. I used the Charlesworth method with a Sigma Power Select II 1200, Sigma Power 6000, and a Sigma Power 13000 for polishing). I sharpened as follows: 20* Grind Angle, a 24* Primary Bevel, and 1* Secondary Bevel, then about 5 strops by hand on horsebutt ... I have hairs jumping off the back of my hand!

This gives me 37* of final cutting angle. I experimented with the throat opening, but ultimately closed it way down. I tried slicing end-grain on both poplar and oak - neither are as clean as what I got off the tablesaw with a cross-cut blade. Waste of time: tearout, tearout, tearout!

Is my shooting board design possibly problemmatic? Or is my blade angle wrong for this application? Please see the shooting board pics: I created a stair-step to keep the blade of the plane from "eating" the shooting board. The first step is at the height of the blade and there's a 3/16" gap between the sole of the plane and the edge of the 90* fence/stop. Maybe the gap is too big? Uggggh! What could be wrong? Thanks so much for your time and assistance! Happy Holidays!
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Regards,
Rich

[Steve Friedman]

Can't see attachments. I use the same tool and the same sharpening stones but have never had tearout problems. Do you mean blowout (spelching) at the end of the cut? Not sure what you mean by 3/16" gap, but on mine (from Evenfall), the gap between the sole of the plane and the 90 fence is only the thickness of the cut.

Steve

[Charles Murray Ohio]

Make shure you take very light cuts and use a scrap board as a backup thats even with the edge that your planing to prevent spelching ( as Steve mentioned )

[Rich Seifert]

Thanks Steve and Charles. If I understand correctly, spelching is the "blow-out" of the rear that I can eliminate with either a chamfer on the rear or a back-up scrap board. I'm not talking about spelching. Instead, I'm talking about planing resulting in very rough end-grain that looks like fibers aren't being cut, but rather that they are being torn-out in chunks. I can try a back-up board. I tried re-uploading the pics of the shooting board. Thanks again for your time... Rich

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Can't see your attachments either. The stair step shouldn't be necessary at all - the plane cuts into the shooting board, until the sidewalls of the plane stop it from cutting any further. (That's why you wouldn't use a rabbeting plane; it would continue to eat away at the shooting board because with no sidewalls there would be nothing to stop it from continuing on. The only thing I can think of that I've done on my shooting boards that resembles what you mention there is adding a small groove along the track to catch any dust and small shavings so that they don't interfere with the plane, like what you might do with a drill press jig, but it's not necessary.

Hard to tell what you're talking about without the pictures working, but if a couple of tips - if you knife your line boldly, and sneak up on that, you can often eliminate any spelching or tearing, as it will chip out at the knife line. Fine cuts helps. A backer board like Charles suggests works great, it will chip out instead of the workpiece. Depending on the setup, sometimes you can make the fence of the shooting board work like this, but I haven't always had the best of luck with that.

If my board is square enough, I often shoot the ends, and then go back and plane the edges afterwards to remove any chip out.

I also use my shooting board less - I used to shoot every edge, but now I stop and think about it - if the piece is going to be tenoned, I really don't care if the end grain of the tenon is super square, just the shoulders. If it's going to be mortised, I often leave it long to keep it from splitting when mortising and cut it after. For a lot of dovetailed pieces, if the ends are square enough to mark out my joinery, I don't shoot the ends since i'm going to clean them up later - maybe some pieces get shot to get all the pieces even, although for some woods, I shoot them because it makes the layout lines easier to see.

Wetting the end grain with alchohol or mineral spirits (or even water) can also make cutting end grain easier. I use a "blender" marker (basically an alchohol based marker without pigment, just the solvent) to do this, as it's a quicker application than cracking open a can and ragging it on.

[Steve Friedman]

Pictures help. I'm not a shooting board expert, but think you have too many "steps." Look at the Lie-Nielsen plan or the shooting boards that Evenfall sells. There's only one step. The second "step" is the groove made by the plane blade the first time you use the board and it's really small. I think the board you are shooting is too far from the sole of the plane.

Steve

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Ah - attachments are working for me now. Any pictures of the edges you've shot?

I assume you're riding the plane on what looks like the MDF. No reason at all for the rabbet in the plywood - and not supporting the wood right up to where the cutting is occuring may be part of the problem.

I also see you made your shooting board out of plywood. I did mine like this as well, and depending on the plywood you've used, I know that my blades were getting really dull using that board - the grit or the glue or something in the plywood would just do a number on the blade after a while. Certainly was serviceable, but lipping the plywood edge on mine was very helpful. I used the cheap stuff though. Don't think this is really the problem though, if your blade is still as sharp afterwards.

If you can shave with the blade it's sharp, but I'd try working some stock with the same setup, on the endgrain if you can, outside of the shooting board, to take that out of the equation. Are you getting anything close to a shaving, or just dust? If it's just dust, it's not really sharp enough (although any shavings will probably break into dust easily being endgrain.) Lighter cuts are definitely key here though.

I'm using the same set up as you. It's usually Jim's job to chime in and welcome folks to the creek and encourage them to update their profile with their location, but I'll do the same (welcome!) and say if you're anywhere near me I'd be glad to see your setup and show you mine if it would help.

I wouldn't worry about blade angle - I've done end grain shooting with standard planes (and even BU blades ground at higher angles) and while lower makes better work, sharp is key.

[Gary Hodgin]

+1, the rebate is the problem. There's no support for the end grain at the back of the cut.

[David Wong]

I recently spent time tuning a shooting board. As others have said, you do not need the second step providing the 3/16" gap. Your jack plane will cut a shoulder to ride in. One other thing you should do is to wax your mdf runway. This made a big difference for me in the ease of shooting - (I was using a quartersawn white oak runway). Make sure you are taking very light cuts. It sounds like your cuts may be too deep.

Others can chime in here, but I do not know if it is realistic to expect a cut as clean as from a table saw. You should expect the end fibers cut when shooting, but you will not have them burnished and polished like off a table saw.

[Derek Cohen]

Sorry guys - it is NOT about adding backup to the board. Yes, I know that is common wisdom, and boards are often made to have a fence against the blade, however what then happens when the blade is set a tad deeper and a bit of the fence os removed. And it is not about a sharp blade. You can create spelching (breakout) with a sharp blade.

Think of what you do when you use a block plane on end grain that is clamped in your face vise. What you do is chamfer the far end. Well, you need to do the same when shooting endgrain on the shooting board.

There is a section on this here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 .html

Chamfer the end with a plane ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 _html_6da4ff98.jpg

... or a chisel ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 _html_785f215a.jpg

Now shoot to the line.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrae Covington]

Below is a pic of my current shooting board. Even worse than plywood, most of it is MDF, egads. I'm so uncouth. But I put in a strip of cherry because I was concerned about the MDF doing a number on my blade. By the way, I don't recommend MDF for the running surface, unless you put a coat of shellac or something on it. I waxed it with beeswax but there's still a little too much friction.

Anyway hopefully you can see the edge on the piece of cherry I was shooting. It's pretty nice and clean, as you were expecting. I agree with others that the extra rabbet may be causing problems, if you're getting tearout all along rather than just spelching at the back edge. There is just the teeniest rabbet in the side of the cherry strip from the extension of the blade past the sole of the plane. That's all you want.

Another tip: I usually moisten the end grain with denatured alcohol or mineral spirits before shooting. This makes the fibers easier to cut.

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[Jim Koepke]

It's usually Jim's job to chime in and welcome folks to the creek and encourage them to update their profile with their location, but I'll do the same (welcome!) and say if you're anywhere near me I'd be glad to see your setup and show you mine if it would help.


LOL!

Lately I haven't been on line this late in the day.

Rich, welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't show your location. You may live near another member who would be happy to look at you situation close up.

Derek has some good information on shooting boards.

A few things come to mind with your set up.

My first thought is the distance created by your rebate is likely a problem.

Another thought is even though end grain looks like there isn't a "grain direction" often times there is. Sometimes flipping the board over helps.

How does the plane do set the same way on edge grain? Set it to take a thin to moderate shaving on edge grain to see if this helps. What works best for me is to take as light a cut as possible on the end grain but not to the point of just making dust. Occasionally with pine my end grain shooting looks like there is tear out, but it. A close look shows it to be were the wood fibers separated and left a void. Just as ugly as tear out, but a bit different. Taking a lighter cut usually minimizes this.

If you live in my area, I would be happy to meet and try to help.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

Repeating what others have said: 1. the rabbet is detrimental. 2. Your blade is not sharp. Make no excuses; Correct these two items and your problems will be solved.

[Kees Heiden]

Sharp blade. Light cuts. Sharpen often.

[Charlie Stanford]

Hello all. I made a shooting board yesterday with the intent of being productive ... turned out to be a MAJOR time bust for me ... all I did was waste time making the board and troubleshooting, sharpening, etc.. Intent was to be micro-trim and square end-grain of foot-long parts a couple of inches wide.

I am using a Lie Nielsen Low-Angle Jack Plane with a Hot Dog (for the shooting board), within which, the blade is bed at 12*. I used the Charlesworth method with a Sigma Power Select II 1200, Sigma Power 6000, and a Sigma Power 13000 for polishing). I sharpened as follows: 20* Grind Angle, a 24* Primary Bevel, and 1* Secondary Bevel, then about 5 strops by hand on horsebutt ... I have hairs jumping off the back of my hand!

This gives me 37* of final cutting angle. I experimented with the throat opening, but ultimately closed it way down. I tried slicing end-grain on both poplar and oak - neither are as clean as what I got off the tablesaw with a cross-cut blade. Waste of time: tearout, tearout, tearout!

Is my shooting board design possibly problemmatic? Or is my blade angle wrong for this application? Please see the shooting board pics: I created a stair-step to keep the blade of the plane from "eating" the shooting board. The first step is at the height of the blade and there's a 3/16" gap between the sole of the plane and the edge of the 90* fence/stop. Maybe the gap is too big? Uggggh! What could be wrong? Thanks so much for your time and assistance! Happy Holidays!

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Regards,
Rich

If your intent was to devise something more efficient than even a basic tablesaw with a decent blade at clean crosscutting and squaring up then you're wasting your time with planes. The cuts you mentioned are easily accommodated on a tablesaw (even better with a chop saw).

If it's a matter of comparing the two methodologies, honesty dictates the mention that there is frankly no comparison.

[Derek Cohen]

Apologies ... should have read the question properly (not rushing ....).

The extra step makes no difference. The problem is that the blade is not sharp enough or taking too deep a cuts, or both.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

I had similar difficulties with my DIY shooting board, and planed the side next to the ramp square.

I then used the plane to trim down the back stop until it could no longer be trimmed.
A few passes more and the clearance was set on the side where the blade rides.

I found that the alignment of the ramp was problematic.
If it's out of parallel to the top face, the blade will drift away from the intended cut.

To test you plane blade for sharpness, clamp a sample of soft pine into your regular vise.
Remove the blade from you plane and try to use it as a large chisel.

If you can cut the endgrain of yellow pine without tearing or blowout, it's plenty sharp.

Please keep us updated on any changes made, as these are common problems that I (for one) am likely to run into as well.

I've seen what a properly tuned shooting board can do and the precision can't be matched.

I highly recommend a read through of Derek Cohen's treatise, it's well documented and within reach of us mortals.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 .html
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/ShootingforPerfection.html

[glenn bradley]

My backer and side runner are shaped by the first few passes of the plane; sort of a "zero clearance" effect. I also chamfer the exit end as Derek describes; no problems.

[Chris Fournier]

Sorry guys - it is NOT about adding backup to the board. Yes, I know that is common wisdom, and boards are often made to have a fence against the blade, however what then happens when the blade is set a tad deeper and a bit of the fence os removed. And it is not about a sharp blade. You can create spelching (breakout) with a sharp blade.

Think of what you do when you use a block plane on end grain that is clamped in your face vise. What you do is chamfer the far end. Well, you need to do the same when shooting endgrain on the shooting board.

There is a section on this here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 .html

Chamfer the end with a plane ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 _html_6da4ff98.jpg

... or a chisel ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 _html_785f215a.jpg

Now shoot to the line.

Regards from Perth

Derek

A very sharp blade and an appropriate depth of cut is all that is required to alleviate the OP's troubles. Derek's suggestion would work but is far too time consuming, impractical for anything other than 90 degree cuts and also exposes one to added error and scrap - overshooting the scribed line. Also in many cases, say mitering picture frames, the objective of the exercise need not be triming to a scribed line but rather making two or more pieces the same length - no scribed lines are present. Hand tools are enjoyable to use but for me the full benefit is derived from efficient use of handtools. The OP's shooting board is moments away from being perfectly functional as others have pointed out and the time that was labelled wasted is actually the time that was required to climb up the learning curve! As long as you don't slide back down the curve you haven't wasted a moment. Enjoy the view from where you are now!

[Rich Seifert]

This is odd. When I am logged in and I view my original post, I can see the thumbnails embedded inline and I can click them to view the larger versions. When I'm not logged in and I view my post, I see hyperlinks to the photo's (mousing-over indicates they are indded on sawmillcreek). I tried posting the photos using the process at the bottom of the screen when creating a new post and I selected to display them inline. I also tried editing my post, deleting the original photos, and then using the toolbar to "insert image". Any suggestions on getting pics into my post or what might be wrong?

[Rich Seifert]

Also, I realized that I trashed my blade taking a few swipes at Purpleheart ... so I tried resharpening my blade again and also softened the end grain with alcohol and performance improved even more. Still not the slicing and perfect edge I expected but much better. Thanks for all of your posts ... I might need to work on my sharpening even more ... Happy Holidays!

[Steve Friedman]

Also, I realized that I trashed my blade taking a few swipes at Purpleheart ... so I tried resharpening my blade again and also softened the end grain with alcohol and performance improved even more. Still not the slicing and perfect edge I expected but much better. Thanks for all of your posts ... I might need to work on my sharpening even more ... Happy Holidays!
Someone suggested something similar above, but there is a real easy way to see if it's the blade or the shooting board. Clamp the board (end grain up) in a vise and try to plane the end grain from the ends to the middle - to avoid spelching (who makes up these terms)? But - don't skew the plane as you try this. Since your shooting board is not ramped, your blade needs to be able to cut end grain without being skewed. When the blade leaves smooth end grain, it's sharp enough to use with the shooting board. I recall Derek Cohen illustrating the benefit of a skewed cut when shooting end grain by using a ramped shooting board or the #51, which has a skewed blade.

I am very new to shooting boards and find that it's really easy to let the plane wobble a bit. If you compare the "perfect" shooting plane (the #51) to the low angle jack, the #51 is massive, rides on a much wider sole, rides in a groove, and has a skewed blade. Obviously many (most) people don't own a #51, but still get excellent results. Other than a sharp blade, you just need to make sure the plane remains perfectly vertical and that the bottom of the plane always stays registered against the lip of the shooting board. For me, the resistance of the end grain makes the plane want to move and it's a real effort to keep it straight and flush.

Slowing down helps, but I think that skewing the cut is even more helpful. After reading Derek's articles, I tried to use my shooting board with a L-N Skew Block Plane (with the side plate on). It was an eye-opening experience. The plane eased through the end grain effortlessly. Unfortunately, the blade is only 1-1/2" wide and the plane is very small, but it convinced me that skewing the blade, especially on soft wood, makes a big difference. Since the #51 is not in my foreseeable future, I may try to add a ramp onto my shooting board.

Happy shooting

Steve

[Jim Koepke]

Rich,

If one is not logged in, the images may not be visible. I have my settings to keep me logged in all the time.

There is an eight image limit to attached images in a single post.

Here is something that may help for posting images:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?167711-posting-photos-as-of-June-2011

It is a bit old, but not much has changed since then.

When editing a post and inserting new images, it may be necessary to use the "Advanced" mode. On my screen it is in the lower right hand corner. Your computer and browser may display things differently.

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Inserting "Inline" will place the image wherever the SMC server thinks the cursor is at the time. The link above tells how to better control this. The image above landed in the wrong place. Hence my comment about "wherever the server thinks... ". My solution was to cut and paste the designator of the attachment to the place it was desired. The brackets have to also be included or the image will not show.

Another problem others may experience is the size of the images being too large for the SMC software to handle. In this case, most image handling software has a way to save images in smaller files. Most common is saving a file as a JPEG. Much of the software will give an option as to file size when saving as a .jpg.

Hope this helps,

jtk

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Apologies ... should have read the question properly (not rushing ....).

The extra step makes no difference. The problem is that the blade is not sharp enough or taking too deep a cuts, or both.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Hi Derek,

it's probably not the extra step that causes the problem. It's the fact that the workpiece isn't supported by the fence up to the cutting line. There's a gap with the width of this extra step. This setup isn't suitable for shooting endgrain. If the workpiece isn't supported to the very end, one gets break outs while shooting endgrain regardless the sharpness of the blade. If the OP would make the support fence longer (well, as long as it gets), the break outs should be history.

Cheers
Klaus

[Steve Branam]

I really think the problem is the huge blade extension required to clear the step. Having your iron 3/16" out from the sole of the plane means that it will be unsupported, subject to more vibration as it crosses the end grain. When I shoot end grain with my LN #7, I set the depth of cut only slightly deeper than when I'm jointing an edge. With a sharp iron, that produces nice clean shavings looking like what a pencil sharpener produces.

Edit: Doh! I see I was misinterpreting the original post. The iron isn't extended 3/16", the board is set protruding 3/16" past the end of the fence and the iron is set for a normal depth, right? So now what's unsupported is the end grain at the far end of the cut. Chamfering and having a backer right up to the line should take care of that. The only remaining thing, given a sharp iron, is to take light shavings.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek,

it's probably not the extra step that causes the problem. It's the fact that the workpiece isn't supported by the fence up to the cutting line. There's a gap with the width of this extra step. This setup isn't suitable for shooting endgrain. If the workpiece isn't supported to the very end, one gets break outs while shooting endgrain regardless the sharpness of the blade. If the OP would make the support fence longer (well, as long as it gets), the break outs should be history.

Cheers
Klaus

Hi Klaus

My earlier post refuted this old chestnut. All that is required is a chamfer at the trailing edge to prevent spelching. I have successfully used many shooting boards with fences that end short.

However the issue here is a rough surface on the face of the edge (not the rear of the edge), and this is most likely due to a blade that is not sharp enough. Shooting end grain requires a sharper edge than planing faces.

Steve's comment about the blade flexing may have substance - I'm not sure if a 3/16" thick blade would flex however. I have not experienced flex in blades this thick over that little extension.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Steve's comment about the blade flexing may have substance - I'm not sure if a 3/16" thick blade would flex however. I have not experienced flex in blades this thick over that little extension.

Trying to work with the blade extended that far would likely be very futile. How would one register the work piece against the sole of the plane.

Maybe if the OP posted a few more pictures showing how they are set up at the moment of work could be of help.

Though the truth is that, many problems in woodworking can be solved with a sharper blade or taking a lighter cut.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

One further note beyond the notions Rich has addressed - I was instructed to get behind the plane, rather than over it.

The wedging action of the plane should be enough to keep it engaged, it should not require more than a firm grip to keep it against the side rail.
Planes suitable for shooting should be reasonably heavy, with a sufficiently large bearing surface that they won't wobble axially.

What takes force is to keep going and shear off a few thousandths thickness of endgrain.
The only way to do this, and stay aligned, is to get behind the plane.

I found the motion very similar to cutting dovetails, but with my (not inconsiderable) body weight engaged.

[Charlie Stanford]

A pure exit cut on endgrain always has the potential for blowout. All it takes is one little peculiar swirl of grain in just the right spot and even a Holtey will remove a chunk as bad as an Anant factory reject would. The knifed line, small chamfer, or backup board are history's acknowledgment of this reality.

I think the gentleman had a lot of sticks to do. While it may have become some sort of personal quest as this point - the legendary and almost magical shooting board that is - I'd run the pieces on the tablesaw and be done with it. That or knife all around and cut them on a bench hook with a backsaw cut right on the line and watch the line crumble and confidence soar.

Two cents disclaimer in full effect.

[Rich Seifert]

Your edit is correct, Steve. The blade is only protruding the sole by .001 - .002. In fact, I'm shredding more than I'm shearing. That said, if I flip the board and shoot long grain, I get beautiful shavings. But end grain cuts SUCK! There are many posts - I'll need to read them all carefully and deliberately. Tomorrow PM? Thanks everyone!

[Charlie Stanford]

Your edit is correct, Steve. The blade is only protruding the sole by .001 - .002. In fact, I'm shredding more than I'm shearing. That said, if I flip the board and shoot long grain, I get beautiful shavings. But end grain cuts SUCK! There are many posts - I'll need to read them all carefully and deliberately. Tomorrow PM? Thanks everyone!

A shooting board does not allow you to make a shearing cut on end grain which can be a drawback. If you have a little swirl or a little grain running out at a funny angle, little tiger stripe or a bird's eye right at the edge then, tough, you can only approach it dead head on. The only thing you can do is flip the board and change the direction of approach, but still only head on. That's constricting IMO. You can't slew or sweep the plane through the cut or finesse that part of the cut, leaving it for last. A shooting board cut is totally blind. You can't see what's happening until it's done, you can't stop mid-cut if something doesn't feel or sound right. The whole thing is, essentially, predicated on pushing the plane all the way through the cut in one move. Everything had better be perfect, especially if you're making the last shooting pass to planned workpiece length. If you are shooting matching rails for any sort of construction this is huge. You can't just shoot until you get an end you happen to like.

If your stock is figured then forget the monkey business and use your tablesaw or shoot the ends in a vise - shooting to deeply incised lines all the way around. Shooting very hard wood and shooting figured stock are two different things so take advice otherwise with a grain of salt. Shooting punky, fast-grown pine could be the most problematic of all. Some of the cleanest end grain cuts you'd ever want to see come from shooting the ends on very hard, dense woods.

Put a test board in a vise and use a different handplane and trim the end grain. Knife around if you want to or just plane to the middle from both edges. Use a low-angle block plane if you have one, if not then a No. 4. Let's see what happens with a different set up, for curiosity's sake if nothing else. The first thing I do when something goes wrong in the shop is try a different method as a sanity check. If the test board planes OK then try one or two more. Let us know the result.

If the exit edge is unsupported by a backup board, lines not knifed, or a chamfer not cut then my expectation, automatically, would be for spelching on the exit side if you plane straight across (which by definition you are on a shooting board). I'm suspicious of any assertion that you can ignore using one of these 3 strategies and reliably (I'm guessing that you don't need 'success' on every third board) shoot boards without experiencing an unacceptable percentage of spelched exit cuts. Mighty suspicious.

[John Coloccia]

Rich: Your blade is not sharp enough. Yeah, your rebate is bigger than it needs to be (most people just let the plane make it's own rebate on the first few passes) but the only thing causing your tear out problems is a dull blade. The arm hair test is NOT a good test. My edges still shave quite nicely long after I've considered them dull. If you want a good test, take a sheet of paper and see if you can cut it cleanly...but don't SLICE through it. Hold the blade up to the edge of the paper and push it straight through. When you tool is truly sharp, it will cleanly cut straight through, and you can even shave tiny little shavings off, almost like you're paring.

BTW, why do you have so many bevels in your blade? Most people would just grind it at 25* (I'm assuming a hollow grind) and then ride that bevel and hone it. You're sort of defeating the purpose of the hollow grind. I don't think this is part of your problem. I just thought I'd mention it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

In fact, I'm shredding more than I'm shearing. That said, if I flip the board and shoot long grain, I get beautiful shavings.

Sounds like what others have said is right, your blade is just not sharp enough. I also do the "paper" test that John does, or take the blade and try and cleanly pare the end grain on a piece of pine.

If you're not getting something anything like the shavings Andrae photographed so well (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?195787-End-Grain-Tearout-Woes-on-the-Shooting-Board&p=2021043#post2021043) but rather dust, then the blade is definitely too dull.

I try and shoot as little possible, and get the cuts correct off the saw. Ideally, you shouldn't need many passes on the shoot board. Doesn't always work out that way, of course. But don't shoot for the sake of shooting.

[Rich Seifert]

I am sorry it took so long to get back to everyone who so generously took time out of your schedules to help me and offer to assist if I was local. I did update my location (Annandale, VA) and will certainly take another cut (no pun intended) at re-building my shooting board without the 3/8" rebate gap between the sole of the plane and the board's base/fence. The next iteration will bave the base cut by the depth of the blade protrusion. I'm definitely going to watch the Charlesworth's sharpening videos again to see if I'm not doing something right ... I am new to sharpening and thought that jumping hairs meant that I was sharp enough for wood. I think I mentioned earlier, but the plane absolutely rocks when I turn the board to plane the long edge ... nice shavings like Andrae's photo (thanks Andrae), but I'm getting sawdust on the end-grain. At this point, I'm just going to create a new board and resharpen and try again... Thanks again and Happy Holidays to you all! Sincerely, Rich

[Charlie Stanford]

I am sorry it took so long to get back to everyone who so generously took time out of your schedules to help me and offer to assist if I was local. I did update my location (Annandale, VA) and will certainly take another cut (no pun intended) at re-building my shooting board without the 3/8" rebate gap between the sole of the plane and the board's base/fence. The next iteration will bave the base cut by the depth of the blade protrusion. I'm definitely going to watch the Charlesworth's sharpening videos again to see if I'm not doing something right ... I am new to sharpening and thought that jumping hairs meant that I was sharp enough for wood. I think I mentioned earlier, but the plane absolutely rocks when I turn the board to plane the long edge ... nice shavings like Andrae's photo (thanks Andrae), but I'm getting sawdust on the end-grain. At this point, I'm just going to create a new board and resharpen and try again... Thanks again and Happy Holidays to you all! Sincerely, Rich

Sawdust is underrated. :) If you knife lines and saw just to the waste side, barely leaving any line then all you need is a little dust to crumble off the end and you're at finished length. Having to remove whole shavings with a plane implies timidness and lack of skill when sawing to a line. You're asking your plane to do the work your saw should have *mostly* handled. Let it. It's faster and square is square.

Sharpening enthusiasts love to make end grain shavings. It does mean their blade is sharp and testosterone level suitably high. And I think they get membership into some secret club. Whether or not any of this has anything to do with getting out parts that need to be crosscut to length in the context of a real woodworking project you'll complete within the next decade is debatable. If the end grain on these parts is going to show in its entirety then you MIGHT need to go to the trouble to sharpen up and remove ONE SHAVING (ONE PLANE PASS) to arrive at finished length and leave a nice surface (and you don't need a shooting board to do this). If not, quit banging your head against the wall and do some woodworking. You can square up and never remove anything but dust. Just befriend a backed saw of some ilk. If I were you I'd be building a nice, accurate miter box instead of a shooting board. Pick up a hard rubber sanding block and some 220 garnet too. I'll never tell.

[Chris Fournier]

Sawdust is underrated. :) If you knife lines and saw just to the waste side, barely leaving any line then all you need is a little dust to crumble off the end and you're at finished length. Having to remove whole shavings with a plane implies timidness and lack of skill when sawing to a line. You're asking your plane to do the work your saw should have *mostly* handled. Let it. It's faster and square is square.

Sharpening enthusiasts love to make end grain shavings. It does mean their blade is sharp and testosterone level suitably high. And I think they get membership into some secret club. Whether or not any of this has anything to do with getting out parts that need to be crosscut to length in the context of a real woodworking project you'll complete within the next decade is debatable. If the end grain on these parts is going to show in its entirety then you MIGHT need to go to the trouble to sharpen up and remove ONE SHAVING (ONE PLANE PASS) to arrive at finished length and leave a nice surface (and you don't need a shooting board to do this). If not, quit banging your head against the wall and do some woodworking. You can square up and never remove anything but dust. Just befriend a backed saw of some ilk. If I were you I'd be building a nice, accurate miter box instead of a shooting board. Pick up a hard rubber sanding block and some 220 garnet too. I'll never tell.

In the context of this thread - using a shooting board - there's no way that this process of yours is faster than getting it "close" with the saw and then finishing up with some swipes from a plane. If you hope to use your method you'll need to scribe all four faces of the billet to saw to accurately and squarely and you still have a surface that is ready for neither joinery nor finishing. It also makes no sense that you would try to get right to the line with a saw which is a relatively crude instrument compared to the plane which when jigged up with a shooting board is capable of very fine and accurate work. A rubber sanding block and 220 grit paper on end grain? Never. That would take too long and result in a terribly inferior gluing surface. There is no secret club when it comes to using hand tools efficiently and effectively nor is testosterone required. I don't have time to mess around and I do "real woodworking" projects that get done in a timely fashion - usually to make money. The saw is a primary break out tool and the plane follows up for accurate on size finished components when using a shooting board. If however you are talking about framing a house, then I saw to a line and move on, and I guess that I saw to a line and move on when I'm dovetailing too...

[Charlie Stanford]

In the context of this thread - using a shooting board - there's no way that this process of yours is faster than getting it "close" with the saw and then finishing up with some swipes from a plane. If you hope to use your method you'll need to scribe all four faces of the billet to saw to accurately and squarely and you still have a surface that is ready for neither joinery nor finishing. It also makes no sense that you would try to get right to the line with a saw which is a relatively crude instrument compared to the plane which when jigged up with a shooting board is capable of very fine and accurate work. A rubber sanding block and 220 grit paper on end grain? Never. That would take too long and result in a terribly inferior gluing surface. There is no secret club when it comes to using hand tools efficiently and effectively nor is testosterone required. I don't have time to mess around and I do "real woodworking" projects that get done in a timely fashion - usually to make money. The saw is a primary break out tool and the plane follows up for accurate on size finished components when using a shooting board. If however you are talking about framing a house, then I saw to a line and move on, and I guess that I saw to a line and move on when I'm dovetailing too...

It's as fast and I am absolutely proposing knifing all the way around a finishing cut, for knowing when you're at planned length if for nothing else. You betcha. And cutting close to the line. You betcha. And leaving very little material, just a whisper (or maybe none as in dovetailing as you pointed out), for cleanup. You betcha. No doubt about it. Let me be perfectly clear.

I never recommended that the OP not finish the cut with a plane, though there are circumstances where that would be just fine. Re-read my post.

I'm curious about how you mark boards for length (rails for a cabinet door for example). You're shooting to some kind of mark, right? Or are you just shootin' willy-nilly and hoping it will fit? Shooting to a pencil line?

[John Coloccia]

Or are you just shootin' willy-nilly and hoping it will fit?

Yeah, well I guess it's hard to think straight when all that testosterone rushes into our systems from not using our planes like 80 grit sandpaper. We talk about it all the time at the secret club.

:cool:

[Charlie Stanford]

Yeah, well I guess it's hard to think straight when all that testosterone rushes into our systems from not using our planes like 80 grit sandpaper. We talk about it all the time at the secret club.

:cool:

Never doubted it for a moment, John.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm definitely going to watch the Charlesworth's sharpening videos again to see if I'm not doing something right ... I am new to sharpening and thought that jumping hairs meant that I was sharp enough for wood. I think I mentioned earlier, but the plane absolutely rocks when I turn the board to plane the long edge ... nice shavings like Andrae's photo (thanks Andrae), but I'm getting sawdust on the end-grain. At this point, I'm just going to create a new board and resharpen and try again... Thanks again and Happy Holidays to you all! Sincerely, Rich

Are you using a guide or are you free hand sharpening?

When it comes to sharp, I am still learning.

We even discussed this last week at our secret meeting. The testosterone laced egg nog was great.

Here is a post of mine that covers a little about testing sharpness:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?158373-My-Camber-Blade-Round-Tuit-Finally-Came

There are a lot of threads here on SMC about sharpening.

The shaving of arm hair is my test of choice, though some do not like it to be encouraged since it can cause injury if not done carefully.

There is also a thread or two on SMC about the "Hanging Hair Test" which is more common among the folks who use straight razors. A quick search isn't getting to pop up. There was a list of degrees of sharpness determined by the "HHT." Not sure, but it may have been David Weaver who posted that. I included a few steps that I use with the arm hair shaving to determine degree of sharpness.

For the arm hair test, the sharpest is when there is no sensation and it almost feels like the hairs are just bending over. Yet when the blade is lifted there isn't any hair left in its path. The dullest being that it doesn't affect any hair. Next would be that it cuts some, if you can feel it cutting or pulling, then there are some nicks left on the edge and so on.

The shooting board is an extremely useful tool. Most often for me on a project it is used when a lot of small pieces need to be the same length. It is quick work to make adjustments to the pieces in the range of a few thousandths of an inch at a time.

Sawing to a line is a preferred skill, then taking a few swipes to clean up the end grain on a shooting board is much quicker than putting the piece in a vise to trim the end grain.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

I waxed it with beeswax but there's still a little too much friction.

I found that paraffin works better than beeswax.

Mike

[John Coloccia]

I found that paraffin works better than beeswax.

Mike

Way way better, IMHO.

[Chris Fournier]

It's as fast and I am absolutely proposing knifing all the way around a finishing cut, for knowing when you're at planned length if for nothing else. You betcha. And cutting close to the line. You betcha. And leaving very little material, just a whisper (or maybe none as in dovetailing as you pointed out), for cleanup. You betcha. No doubt about it. Let me be perfectly clear.

I never recommended that the OP not finish the cut with a plane, though there are circumstances where that would be just fine. Re-read my post.

I'm curious about how you mark boards for length (rails for a cabinet door for example). You're shooting to some kind of mark, right? Or are you just shootin' willy-nilly and hoping it will fit? Shooting to a pencil line?

Why on Earth would I shoot rails for a door? There is no good reason to do this. Rails on any given door need to be the same length, that's all. If your rails are 0.01" too long don't sweat it, you'll be okay as long as they're all 0.01" too long. I can do this right off of my table saw, no need to use a shooting board. Shooting to a sharp pencil line or a knifed line will make no difference to the outcome in the example that you have laid out. In fact for a piston fit door I'd be using a handplane on the stiles to create the final clearance I wanted.

I can't understand why knifing all the way around a cut is so important to you when you feel that it's okay to use a handsaw to cut to the line and then a rubber backed piece of sandpaper to clean it up. I can however understand why you think that projects can take up to ten years - you're incising all of your cross cuts on all faces and using a shooting board when a table saw would suffice.

[Charlie Stanford]

Why on Earth would I shoot rails for a door? There is no good reason to do this. Rails on any given door need to be the same length, that's all. If your rails are 0.01" too long don't sweat it, you'll be okay as long as they're all 0.01" too long. I can do this right off of my table saw, no need to use a shooting board. Shooting to a sharp pencil line or a knifed line will make no difference to the outcome in the example that you have laid out. In fact for a piston fit door I'd be using a handplane on the stiles to create the final clearance I wanted.

I can't understand why knifing all the way around a cut is so important to you when you feel that it's okay to use a handsaw to cut to the line and then a rubber backed piece of sandpaper to clean it up. I can however understand why you think that projects can take up to ten years - you're incising all of your cross cuts on all faces and using a shooting board when a table saw would suffice.

Chris, if you read my posts in this thread you'll see that I recommended the OP use his tablesaw in the first place. When it was clear he intended to continue to try a hand tool approach I suggested another strategy rather than the long and winding road a shooting board looked like it was going to be for him.

As for critical crosscuts using hand tools, ones that need to result in a workpiece of an exact length and where a clean margin is desired, read Robt. Wearing on the subject. I can't explain it better than he but his advice is similar to dozens of other woodworkers on the subject. These guys were writing assuming a tablesaw was not available. You need to incise the cut. If for no other reason than to accurately mark the work to final length. That's all I can say. If it is unclear to you why or not readily apparent after a little reflection then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of good cabinetmaking technique using hand tools. Regardless of whether you split the line with a hand saw, saw wide and plane back (freehand or with a shoot), you have to know where to stop. Incising also helps prevents spelching if the intention is to push a plane through the cut on the breakout side (the far side) rather than plane in toward the middle.

If a reasonably in tune tablesaw is available, and one has no reason not to use it, then this whole discussion is moot - knifed lines all around and shooting boards at least. That said, this is the Neanderthal Haven sub-board of the forum.

[Chris Fournier]

If a reasonably in tune tablesaw is available, and one has no reason not to use it, then this whole discussion is moot - knifed lines all around and shooting boards at least. That said, this is the Neanderthal Haven sub-board of the forum. Charlie Stanford

On this we can agree. But a rubber backed 220 grit piece of sandapaper to clean up sawn end grain? And I don't have a grasp of the fundamentals?

Good hand tool and machine tool skills should allow you to do good work quickly and that is good technique.

[Charlie Stanford]

If a reasonably in tune tablesaw is available, and one has no reason not to use it, then this whole discussion is moot - knifed lines all around and shooting boards at least. That said, this is the Neanderthal Haven sub-board of the forum. Charlie Stanford

On this we can agree. But a rubber backed 220 grit piece of sandapaper to clean up sawn end grain? And I don't have a grasp of the fundamentals?

Good hand tool and machine tool skills should allow you to do good work quickly and that is good technique.

James Krenov regularly sanded endgrain.

[Ron Brese]

When you get it right the shavings will look like the picture below. When your iron is sharp enough you should be able to leave a polished finished on a 45 degree cuts in woods like maple and cherry. Bear in mind the shooting board is a tool meant to refine edges that are already quite close to their final state.

Ron

248619

[Jim Matthews]

When you get it right the shavings will look like the picture below. When your iron is sharp enough you should be able to leave a polished finished on a 45 degree cuts in woods like maple and cherry. Bear in mind the shooting board is a tool meant to refine edges that are already quite close to their final state.

Ron

248619

Mine aren't so pretty as this.
Please send me a loaner plane like this one, so that I can appreciate the difference.