Favorite Western hand/panel saws

[Mike Holbrook]

This seems like an obvious title for a thread to me, but when I search I do no find anything close, so here we go.

I have been searching for over a year to build that perfect nest of hand/panel saws. I have hundreds of little pieces of wood in a box in the shop from practicing. I notice that the modern trend seems to be towards saws with more, smaller teeth. I see old 6 pt rip saws listed as finishing saws and can't help but notice that LN only offers a 7 pt rip saw. Chris's suggestions in "The Anarchist Tool Chest" also run toward the extra toothy. My experience has been that how well a saw is sharpened is even more important than the PPI. I have 10 & 11 PPI saws well sharpened that cut faster, and much neater, than dull 5 PPI saws.

Another factor is length. I know some like their saw as long as they can get them, believing that longer cuts faster. Herman on the other hand suggests that people fit their saw to their arm length. Herman believes that a properly fitted saw will cut faster for the sawyer it fits than an "overly" long saw will. It seems to me that how and where the sawyer is using the saw is very relevant as well. For cutting tenons, small pieces of wood...standing at the bench or seated. I like smaller saws with more teeth.

I personally feel that a 24" saw fits my relatively short arms well. I also have 22",20", 18" Western saws with higher tooth counts for more delicate work. I keep a couple 26" 5-6 pt rip saws around for larger jobs and I am working on a 26" 6 PPI saw for breaking down longer boards. I find that when I am making longer cuts I tend to lengthen my stroke a little.

So what do you guys like in the way of western saws in terms of length and tooth counts?

[David Weaver]

For ripping 4/4 5/4 kind of stuff, I like any decent brand of older saw in 5 - 6 points. 26 or 28 inches. For thicker stuff, the same or sometimes a coarser saw if the wood is soft enough to allow it (cherry, pine, etc). I don't have anything coarser than 4 1/2 point, though, and I don't know if it would be productive to.

For crosscutting, to break down things, I like a 6/7 point crosscut saw for thick stuff and something like 7/8 for 4/4, 5/4 stuff. Almost exclusively for large stuff (like panels) I make a cut to the line with an old spear and jackson 12 point 26" long saw. It is faster than using a shorter smaller panel saw.

I am 5'9". If the saw isn't long enough to be unwieldy or hit the floor or something behind a bench or bench vise, i don't tend to like the smaller saws.

I have some choice smaller saws, but i favor the longer stroke when I have room to make it.

It's my opinion that there aren't really any new panel or carpenter's saws worth looking at unless a user just absolutely doesn't want to have anything to do with tool selection or tool care. The saw works that made the old saws were specialized, efficient and very consistent. The tapering on quality saws made around 1900 was fantastic and the heat treating was very consistent. The steel in a new saw might be a little better and harder, but I'd be surprised if the tapering was as good, and $50 gets a careful shopper an awful lot of vintage saw that would cost 200+ to $300+ new.

There is some virtue in the newer backsaws, though, I think. It can be hard to find decent older backsaws sometimes, at least for a reasonable price.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Another factor is length. I know some like their saw as long as they can get them, believing that longer cuts faster. Herman on the other hand suggests that people fit their saw to their arm length. Herman believes that a properly fitted saw will cut faster for the sawyer it fits than an "overly" long saw will. It seems to me that how and where the sawyer is using the saw is very relevant as well. For cutting tenons, small pieces of wood...standing at the bench or seated. I like smaller saws with more teeth.

You can only easily pull / push a saw a certain distance based on your body build. Sure, you can move your entire body to move the saw farther, but that will likely tire you faster, and be more inefficient.

Sadly, I don't own a nicely sharpened panel saw... So I have no idea how they cut. I own a new Stanley that rips wood apart and leaves a horrendous edge, so I only use it for a quick break down on something. I really should take the time to learn to sharpen and then test some of the old saws that I purchased.

I know it makes a huge difference with my back saws.

[Stanley Covington]

So what do you guys like in the way of western saws in terms of length and tooth counts?

Length preference varies from person to person, and to some extent, application to application. I am the standard height for a man in the early 1900's, and I find the standard length quality saws from that time period work perfectly well. Since the 1960's Americans have tried to reinvent the wheel every few weeks with predictable results. The boys back then took sawing much more serious than we do nowadays, and consequently the best selling lengths and tooth counts where popular for a damn good reason.

I may not actually cut wood with the last two or three inches of a 28" long rip saw, but compared to shorter blades, the extra length seems to reduce the blade's harmonics when I am cutting well, especially in thicker material, making the cutting easier. I know taller guys with longer arms and legs though, that like the shorter saws, so go figure.

Tooth count varies with the wood I am cutting. Of course, I am assuming that the saws being compared are all very sharp as it is silly to compare tooth count of dull saws to sharp saws. Fine high-count teeth leave a smoother, more precise, surface (which really doesn't matter except when cutting joints). More importantly, they create less spelching where the blades exits the material being cut. The trade-off is slower cutting. And especially when cutting thicker materials, especially softwood, the gullets of fine teeth cannot swallow much sawdust, and therefore can begin to float partway through a cut in thicker/wetter material reducing their efficiency even further. The lesson learned over the centuries and on every continent is to use the biggest practical tooth count you can push during the workday and clean up with the rougher surfaces with a plane afterwards (except in joints). This applies especially to rip saws which can burn a lot of cheerios.

So depending on what I am cutting during the day, the most efficient choice will vary from a 12tpi crosscut to a 3tpi rip saw. And while I have a wide variety of saws available in my workshop to meet every application, on the jobsite I can carry at most three push saws, and so I match those to the work I am doing during the day. usually, it boils down to 26" 10tpi & 7tpi crosscut saws, and a 28" 5tpi rip. Given a choice of just one saw, I would take a 7tpi ripsaw. Frankly, in thick hardwood like oak or maple, a rip saw crosscuts as good or better than a dedicated crosscut saw IMO.

My favorite saws are all almost all Disston 12's: they just seem to cut smoother and easier, but I tend to take No.7s and D8's to jobsites. My No.76 is really a honey and never leaves the shop.

Stan

[paul cottingham]

I am 6'2" and my favorite ripper is an old 6 pt disston that is 26" long. I have several 26" crosscuts as well, mostly Atkins no. 53's that I really like. I use the 8 pt the most.

Atkins have really nice steel.

[Stanley Covington]

If I may add to my previous post with a quote form the most excellent Disstonian Institute:

"Handsaws and panel saws: the names get mixed up, but I refer to full-sized saws (26 inches long) as handsaws. Anything shorter is a panel saw. With few exceptions, anything 28 inches or longer has rip teeth, and therefore is called a ripsaw by virtue of the teeth, not the saw's length. Disston made crosscut-toothed handsaws up to 36" in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but the longer saws were not all that common. Most people will be comfortable using a 26" saw for crosscutting. Perhaps a small person would benefit from a 24" saw, but panel saws are better when working in cramped space or when it has to fit into a small toolbox. Short saws mean more strokes and more work.

"Ripping is a labor-intensive process because of the length of the cut. A longer saw is more efficient, and a larger handle facilitates the use of two hands, also a big help. Notice the difference among the three handles, pictured above. All are from early 20th-century No. 7 saws, but the panel saw handle with three sawnuts has the notched detail on the top of the handle and the decorative groove at the front of the hand-hole. The center handle is a full-sized (26") saw, with four nuts and similar shape, but it is larger than the panelsaw handle. The handle on the right is from a 28" ripsaw. There's no notch at the top, instead there is a smooth cutout for the web of the user's hand while gripping the saw for two-handed work. The handle is a good deal larger and sturdier as well, to stand up to the hard work of ripping.

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/7page.html

[Mike Holbrook]

Paul, I share your affection for Atkins saws. I have three. I am still trying to get a small bend that one arrived with out. They seem to have more flex. The 26", 8 pt saw I have has a relatively narrow plate that I have a hard time using due to flex. My 22", 8 pt seems to work better for me, may be the longer saw just needs a tune up but the plate feels like a noodle compared to Disston and Simond saws I have of the same length. As much as I like the feel of the Atkins saws I imagine it is harder to keep their plates straight. Still they do seem to have that unique light feel.

I just received a Disston #9, 24", 7 pt today. It was sharpened by a professional and cuts like nothing else I have tried so far. Maybe it will be the inspiration I need to improve my sharpening skills.

Yes, I have those pages bookmarked and have read that page several times Stanley. Wenzloff refers to 26-28" 4-5 1/2 pt saws as Half Rips, and breaks the hand and panel saws down further too. Disston manufactured D8 saws, according to the institute, in 16-30 inch sizes. I doubt they made saws they felt had no use or would not sell. Apparently when "hand" saws got used for just about everything there was a larger assortment of sizes not a smaller assortment.

I have 5 & 6 pt 26" D8 thumb hole saws and a heavy monster made at Sheffield Saw Works for Fry Phillips & Co., with monster handle. Like Stanley I find I do not use the last 2-3 inches of, in my case of a 26" saw. Still, if I get a little feisty during a longer cut I know I want run out of saw plate. To be honest though, if I have a long rip in thick hard wood to do I'm tossing the board on my band saw with the 1" Laguna Resaw King blade. My better hand/panel/back/miter saws are oriented toward working smaller pieces. Currently I am set up to do the rougher breaking down of boards in my garage, where my bandsaw resides. Those boards move to my shop in the basement or the building that the wife and I work at on our property every day. For one, not too long board though it may be easier just to use a hand saw. Certainly the locations and resources we work with have their affect.

[Zach Dillinger]

I'm 6'5" and my favorite rip saw is a 28" Disston thumbhole, 5 1/2 tpi, that used to belong to my dad (he never used it, just owned it). I use this for ripping longer stock on a sawbench. For ripping at the bench, I use either a Disston 26" 7ppi or a 10ppi Wenzloff half-back that I absolutely love.

[Mike Holbrook]

Zach, I built a 18+", 10 pt Wenzloff half-back from a kit, sharpened plate. If Lee Valley ever gets their 16", 9 pt version in stock... My HB is right behind my new Disston #9 for hand saws. I think the plate on the saws Wenzloff makes are tapered where mine is straight. My Gramercy Sash saw is still my favorite favorite though. It feels like it is melting through the wood. I expect some of my other saws to improve when I get better at sharpening though. I have not layed a file on my Atkins 22", 11 pt saw yet as it came fairly sharp. It is probably the sleeper.

I remember when my dad use to "make" me use a hand saw and I hated it. I'm not even sure that nasty old saw had anything resembling real teeth.

[Zach Dillinger]

Mike, I bet that Atkins will be a dream once you get it where you need it to be. I use my Wenzloff in the same way a lot of people use a sash saw; it can rip, it can crosscut, it really does it all. Its filed with about 8 deg of rake and about 15 degrees of fleam. It can pretty do anything. Although I did have to modify the bottom of the handle, it was way too small and used to dig in to the heel of my hand.

[paul cottingham]

Mike, the Atkins really taught me to let the saw do the cutting. I became a much better sawyer once i stopped trying to force the saw. I'm a big lug, so its natural for me to try to push as hard as I can.
If you want to send it out to be sharpened, i have several saws that were sharpened by Mark Harrell of bad axe and he is very good at what he does. I might be worth getting one done professionally just to see what sharp is.

[Tony Wilkins]

I've got a Wenzloff Seaton Panel Rip saw in a box for Christmas. I've also got a pair of Disston D8's that have served me very well. Add to that a Bad Axe 14" hybrid filed back saw and I feel somewhat set.

Slight hijack time - What are your thoughts on vintage versus modern 'artisan' saws? I'd like to have a cross-cut saw between the Bad Axe and the D8. I had been thinking about a Wenzloff halfback or panel. But after reading this thread and some others I'm wondering about filling that gap with a vintage of some sort.

[David Weaver]

If you can sharpen a saw, you can find saws that can be used as a panel saw. Just make sure that you know exactly what you're going to do with it, or you might end up with a saw you don't use a lot.

Check with Mike via phone or email, too, to find out what his lead time is. You don't want to order a saw only to find out it'll be 8 or 10 months.

My personal thought on the new saws without backs is that most guys are just not going to be able to do as delicate of a taper, if any at all (i think mike W tapers his). The vintage sawmakers had huge grinding setups so they could put a good amount of taper on saw quickly and accurately.

If you don't want to wade through ebay (ebay doesn't have many sale deals any longer...too many people looking for saws there), you can always go to the experienced pickers, or someone like this person:
http://shop.roseantiquetools.net/9930-Superior-Hand-Saw-9930a.htm

I know I've bought tools from rose tools before, but I can't remember what I bought from them. AT any rate, it gives you a person to ask "is it straight?" and "does it have all of its teeth?"


The only way I know of to get a deal on saws on ebay now is to use the search function to find Buy it Now items that are newly listed, and have it give you a list of the new items each day in your email. Anything good that's an auction will be bid up, and anything Buy it Now that's still listed several days after listing will probably be overpriced.

[Stanley Covington]

If you can sharpen a saw, you can find saws that can be used as a panel saw. Just make sure that you know exactly what you're going to do with it, or you might end up with a saw you don't use a lot.

My personal thought on the new saws without backs is that most guys are just not going to be able to do as delicate of a taper, if any at all (i think mike W tapers his). The vintage sawmakers had huge grinding setups so they could put a good amount of taper on saw quickly and accurately.

Sharpening Western saws is not difficult, and extremely satisfying. Just follow the directions on Vintage Saws webpage.

A few years ago I looked into producing a line of high-quality panel saws and backsaws, and what I learned may interest some. Of course, I compared the best antique blades with the best modern ones available then. L-N's products were not available then so I cannot speak about them, but it did include the best English maker's products. I carefully measured all the namebrand quality vintage blades I could get my hands on and learned that all were taper ground, including Disston, Bishop, Simmonds, Atkins (especially precise, BTW) and others. The higher the saw in the maker's lineup (and more expensive), the thinner the blade, and more consistent the taper. Obviously, manufacturers spent a lot of time and effort and capital investment on taper grinding. Backsaws were not taper ground, BTW. Not one of the saws sold new was taper ground. The only modern saw I could find that was taper ground was a 30 year old Sandvik made in Sweden.

I went to saw manufacturers in Japan, England, Sweden and the US and asked them if they could make a small run of custom saws to my specs, cash up front. They all said the could and would. Happily, gleefully. They were all very eager to break into the US market for high-quality backsaws like the Liberty brand, which has a tremendous markup, BTW, when compared to production costs, as I learned after receiving multiple cost proposals. However, when their production people dug into the specs I insisted on for the panel saws, after much hemming and hawing and disputation ("Mr. Covington, you don't need a tapered blade, not with OUR special steel), without exception they all concluded they could not produce the taper grind for lack of machinery and experience. The Swedes were the most honest and came closest to complying, because they could have purchased some of Sandvik's old grinders rusting away in used machinery dealers warehouses, and they could have possibly persuaded the factory Owner's grandad to come out of retirement to set up and operate the grinder, but they decided could not justify the investment without a minimum order of 1800 blades.

Hammer Tensioning is also critical to a good western handsaw, but none of the sawmakers I spoke with even knew what I was talking about, with the sole exception of the Japanese sawmakers, who still hammer tension their blades, even the kaeba-shiki (replaceable blade) saws made from rolls of Swedish steel. It is very easily done by machine, I learned during several factory tours, but the key point is that none of the manufacturers I spoke with were doing it or even knew of how to do it.

You can tell the difference between a high-quality hammer-tensioned blade and a dead blade from the sound and the tendency to bind as the blade heats up, especially when cutting thicker material. The manufacturers of yore spent a lot of effort on this aspect too.

In summary, panel saws are hard to make right, and it is very difficult for the untrained to tell the difference between a good one and a bad one from appearance alone. No one is making a Western-style saw to vintage saw specs anymore (with the possible exception of L-N). Also, the most expensive ship-of-the-line handsaws , like the Disston No.12 (not to include gimmick saws), were that way for a damn good reason: a lot more labor was spent tapering, straightening, and hammer tensioning the blades. They worked better for the effort than and they still do now.

On the other hand, almost any idiot with a shear and a tooth cutting/grinding machine can buy high-quality premanufactured plate steel direct from his wholesaler and make a backsaw.

So sad....

Stan

[Tony Wilkins]

Forgive the newbie question but can someone tell me what taper what taper is and how it helps me?

[David Weaver]

Taper means the saw plate is thinner at the top than it is at the tooth line, and usually it's thinner at the front tooth than the back.

It makes it easier to use the saw with less set and still not have any issues with the saw binding in a cut. I don't know if there's any kind of consensus on it these days, but around 1900, the best saws had the best taper, too, so it must've been worth it to craftsmen. A lot of the homeowner grade stuff that followed (some disston keystone, etc) didn't have taper.

[David Weaver]

So sad....

Stan

Thanks for the summary of the current market Stan. I guess it was only a matter of time after 1935 or so that the loss of the art was bound to occur, at least on an affordable scale.

That said, the floppy japanese tooth (and the term is loosely used because the teeth are not as precise on US brand western style saws as the machine made japanese saws) style western saws are decent as a starting point and they're fairly cheap.

[Archie England]

Go search for any threads with Marv Werner or Daryl Weir. These guys have generously shared their knowledge about handsaws.

Two basic saw cuts are ripping and crosscutting. For each, there needs to be tpi considerations for wood that is soft or hard and dry or wet. (That allows us eight saws for each tpi.... :) ) I think that 8 tpi is typically the average for cutting speed vs. finish of the cut--the higher the tpi, the better the finish but slower cutting. Ripping cuts in wet soft woods need low counts for tpi (4-4.5 tpi) vs. dry hardwoods, which can handle higher tpi (6 or 7) for better finishes. Traditionally, shorter panel saws had higher tpi for better finishes and the longer saws (26"+) excelled at the coarse breakdown. However, I've got a few (D12; D8) with 12 tpi that are full 24-26" plates. They cut cleanly and smooothly, but my Atkins 8tpi can flat cut faster (blazingly so). Only the D100 sharpened by Marv can keep up.

What's my favorite--the 12, D12, or 112. Super saws!!!! But I love the aged (w/nib), humble #7, as well. Great saws. (Okay, I love most any nib-aged saw, except for my #16 that defies a straight cut. Aargh!!)

[Mel Fulks]

As mentioned once before,it is important for beginners to understand that some of the saws currently sold marked "taper ground" are NOT TAPER GROUND!.You can easily see it ,but I have micd a couple to be sure. Asked a store clerk about it, he told me that taper ground means that one end of the saw is wider than the other!

[Mike Holbrook]

So I am calling my saw collection complete for now. I bought two saws from a guy who restores and sharpens. Joe Omar I believe is his name. I wanted two fast saws I can use as models for sharpening and for larger jobs until my sharpening skills get better. I bought a Disston 9, 24", 7ppi CC and a Disston 12, 26", 6ppi, rip. I have 10+ saws that I think can be made very usable. If I can't start producing decent results filling my own saws I may send a few to Joe to get sharpened until I get my skills "honed". I have two seperate places I work at that I would like to have saws at.

I was using my 22" Atkins Perfection, 11ppi last night and it cuts amazingly well for a saw who's teeth still need a little work. I may send my 8ppi Atkins to Joe when/if I decide to get him to sharpen a few. He seemed to think he might be able to help with a little kink in the blade too, which so far I have not been able to get totally worked out. I agree Archie those saws cut very fast. Maybe the plates are thinner, more tapered...? Or maybe their 22" saws are just magic.

[Mike Cogswell]

So I am calling my saw collection complete for now. . . . .

Heretic! You can get excommunicated for calling a collection of any type of tool "complete".

For joinery I have a LN 10" Dovetail and five back saws, 10" Disston, 11" LN, 12" Buck, 14" Bad Axe and a 16" Bad Axe. The back saws range from 14 ppi on the two 10" ones to 11 ppi on the 16" with two being rip and three crosscut. The Buck is a dog, the Disston and LN are both very nice saws and the two Bad Axes are simply amazing. Today I was cutting a bunch of half-lap joints in some old SYP (which is like cutting oak) and used the big Bad Axe 16" Tenon to cut the faces. That saw slices through the wood like the proverbial hot knife through butter - and melted butter at that. I find I use them all (well, the Buck not so much) depending of the wood and its thickness and the type of cut.

For cutting pieces to length I generally reach for one of the two Disston D-8 panel saws, an 18" 11ppi or 22" 9ppi depending of the wood. I find them to be handy sizes around the shop.

For breaking down and ripping stock I have two rip saws, one 28" D-8 thumbhole at 5 ppi and a post war 26" D-23 Lightweight at 5 1/2 ppi. The D-23 I found as NOS and dates to 1947-53. To cut the stock to length I have three 26" Disstons, two D-23s at 8 and 10ppi and a D-15 Victory at 12 ppi. All of these date to just after WWII. The 10ppi D-23 is another NOS find, while the other D-23 and the D-15 were my father's saws.

I didn't really need the two NOS D-23s, I was getting along fine without them, but I just couldn't resist the temptation to try out a pair of "brand new" Disstons from 60 or so years ago when they were still building quality saws in Philadelphia and hadn't been replaced by electric saws yet. They are indeed nice saws and cut very well right out of the box. I shipped my father's saws off to Mark at Bad Axe to have them professionally sharpened. As you would expect, they both cut flawlessly.

Several miscellaneous saws round out the current (and incomplete!) collection: Two reversible offset saws, a pad saw, a keyhole saw, a flexible flush cut saw, a nice 13" antique maple bow saw ($20 at a yard sale), two old coping saws and an Olsen fret saw.

So, what's my favorite? I really like my little 18" D-8 panel saw and it would be my favorite if I hadn't treated myself to the Bad Axe saws. The 14" Tenon saw is just a delight in every way. It's beautiful to look at with its black walnut handle and black nickle back & nuts; the handle and its heft make it feel good in my hand and it cuts like a dream. Yeah, it's my favorite!!

[Mike Holbrook]

"For now" I said for now. Now is a very short time, some would say it is over before you finish uttering it. Actually I mean to get more project experience with the saws I have before thinking about other saws.

The Bad Axe 14" Tenon saw sounds nice, similar I think to my Gramercy 14" Sash saw, also with a black walnut handle. The .02" thick plate seems to melt it's way through wood with almost no effort. Maybe 14" Tenon/Sash saws are magic just like those 22" Atkins panel saws..

[Stanley Covington]

That said, the floppy japanese tooth (and the term is loosely used because the teeth are not as precise on US brand western style saws as the machine made japanese saws) style western saws are decent as a starting point and they're fairly cheap.

I think western push saws are excellent, and in fact, I prefer them for cutting hardwood. For ripping, they are a lot easier on the back than Japanese pull saws, and are a heck of a lot easier to sharpen. My favorite panel saw, as I mentioned earlier, is not my hand-made tamahagane kataba rip saw, but my Disston No. 12's.

Stan

[Mike Holbrook]

Just wondering about other Disston London Spring Steel saws, other than the #12. I believe my #9 uses the same steel and is the same saw without the wheat etching in the handle. I think the #16 is the same or similar steel. I also read somewhere that the original #8, not D(8) or D-8 was the same or similar steel. I have a #16, 20" panel saw, but so far I have not been able to sharpen it well enough to tell how similar it is to the 3 #12's I have.

I also wonder how the steel in Atkins and Simond saws compares to the Disston steels?

[Stanley Covington]

Just wondering about other Disston London Spring Steel saws, other than the #12. I believe my #9 uses the same steel and is the same saw without the wheat etching in the handle. I think the #16 is the same or similar steel. I also read somewhere that the original #8, not D(8) or D-8 was the same or similar steel.

The gentleman that owns the Disstonian Institute website purports to have conducted a scientific study of the metallurgy of various Disston saws, and posted the results on the same website. According to those results, all the Disston saws tested used steel with basically identical qualities. Disston manufactured its own steel, so this makes sense, but it does point out the creative advertising intended in the company's use of the term London Spring. I suppose British steel had superior perceived quality/value.

The differences I have found between the No.12 and Disston's other products (I own eight No.12's and have tested them extensively, and one to destruction) have been the thinness of the blade, the uniformity of the taper, and the reduced binding in the cut, probably due to the taper grind, but also a result, I believe, of hammer tensioning, since binding does not develop even when the blade becomes heated with use, compared to cheaper blades, for instance. Also the No.12 has a better handle, not just because of the decorative carving or better grade of applewood employed, but the shape is more convenient for using in the reversed position than any other of the Disston sawhandles. The No.12 cost a lot more at the time due to the additional time spent shaping, straightening, tensioning and polishing the blade. It is a better product in my opinion. I have not tested the L-N saws, but unless they have gone to great trouble and expense (and I doubt they have), I doubt they match the quality and performance of early 20th century American and British ship-of-the-line handsaws. They took handsaws very seriously before the advent of the handheld circular saw. Every carpenter and every cabinetmaker and every furniture maker around the world experienced first-hand the quality of his saw in his arms and back and pay envelope at the end of the day. Not so today. Back then, the No.7 or D-7 (Henry Disston's first product) was the standard saw; The D-8 was a better saw intended for the professional carpenter/woodworker, priced right, durable and satisfactory in every way imaginable. But by comparison, the No.12 was excellent.

The price comparison based on public advertising and company catalogs published at the time is interesting.
In 1876: No.12 = $2.91ea; No.8= $2.00 ea; No.7 = $1.66 ea.
Delta No.8 vs No. 12 is 45%
Delta No.7 vs No.12 is 75%

In 1931: D-12 = $5.00 ea; D8= $3.25 ea; No.7 = $2.75 ea.
Delta D-8 vs D-12 is 53%
Delta D-7 vs D-12 is 81%

Why would a man that used a handsaw all day long pay 45% more for a No.12 compared to the workhorse No.8, or 75% more than the standard No.7?

Don't confuse backsaws/dovetail saws with handsaws. Such saws were never tapered, although they were probably hammer tensioned. They are much much easier to make with modern steels and machinery than handsaws/panelsaws ever were, and so modern manufacturer's readily and cheaply make very high-quality backsaws/dovetail saws.

Of course, a poor sharpening job can make the best saw perform miserably.

Stan