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Mike Troncalli
12-12-2012, 1:53 PM
Hello,

We have been using our engraver for the past year, but only to engrave OUR product line. With the holidays upon us we are getting requests to do personalized engraving of customers "personal items". I was wondering does anyone out there have a copy of a wavier that they have their customers sign saying that we are not responsible if it doesn't turn out like you want... :eek:

Thanks

Tim Bateson
12-12-2012, 2:19 PM
I think the consensus is, that it's a warm fuzzy for you, but doesn't amount to anything if a customer is really unhappy about your mistake. I do however warn customers on certain type of jobs that I cannot guarantee success. Sometimes I just refuse to take on the liability. A few months ago I did a couple ball bats, that I later found out were worth around $600 each. I may not have done the job had I known before hand.

Mike Troncalli
12-12-2012, 2:24 PM
Sorry, going to have to disagree with you on the "warm fuzzy". I pretty much want them to sign a release that if we screw up their item we are not responsible for replacement cost. Doesn't mean that I won't try to make it right, just means that in a court of law I can show the judge, jury and executioner that they knew there was a possibility and that they would not hold us responsible.

Tim Bateson
12-12-2012, 3:09 PM
I understand, but with numerous discussions on this subject here within the Forum, that agreement doesn't hold much water if someone wants to sue. And... even if you win, do you really? With or without an agreement, it could get costly both in $$ and reputation.
To be clear - If it helps you sleep at night, then by all means get an agreement. I'm old school and I still believe in someone's word and a hand shake. Both worth about the same in court. Mistakes happen and we all deal with them the best way possible. I screwed up a brand new IPod the other day. That gentleman thanked me for offering an engraving refund, then gave me additional business.

Do what's best for you.

Scott Shepherd
12-12-2012, 3:39 PM
I agree with Tim. How can you expect to tell a customer to sign over their rights as a consumer if you do a poor quality job? They have no way of knowing what the final product will look like. They are trusting you. And now you're asking them to trust you and if you do a poor job, then they have no action against you. I've heard that those waivers mean little in court, and like Tim said, all they do is make you feel good inside.

If you think you're going to show up in court and the judge is going to read the document and dismiss the case, I think you're wrong. He/She is probably going to ask exactly what I did- so you're telling me that they had no idea of the final result, but you forced them to sign a waiver saying no matter what the end result, they had no recourse? I certainly wouldn't want to be in front of the judge on that day.

Just my opinion.

Glen Monaghan
12-12-2012, 6:27 PM
Not a lawyer and don't play one on TV, but how is this sort of waiver any different than those TOS on software that basically says "You paid for it but it may or may not work for you and no guarantee of fitness for any purpose nor that no harm will come to your system, but we aren't responsible; if you don't agree, don't install, just return to point of purchase"?

Scott Shepherd
12-12-2012, 6:34 PM
Not a lawyer and don't play one on TV, but how is this sort of waiver any different than those TOS on software that basically says "You paid for it but it may or may not work for you and no guarantee of fitness for any purpose nor that no harm will come to your system, but we aren't responsible; if you don't agree, don't install, just return to point of purchase"?

Because one is a license and one is you modifying someone's personal property. It's like a tattoo. Do you pay for a tattoo up front, no matter what the end result? Tattoo artists get paid when the customer is satisfied with the work, not when they finish the job.

Let's be honest, why would you need a clause like that? There's a BIG difference in saying that errors can happen that are out of your control, like a power outage in the middle of the job and you can't help but have some small line where you try and match it, versus taking a photo, processing it wrong and then using too much power and creating a mess of a piece of work on someone else property. One is a mistake you have no control over and one is incompetence. The two aren't in the same category.

That's what insurance is for. If you have a machine malfunction and ruin someone's $200 ipod, then insurance should cover that if you wanted to file the claim.

It's your business, you have to take SOME responsibility for the job once it's in your hands.

Just my opinion. I'm not a lawyer either, but if I had people sign stuff like that every day, I'd have no customers left.

Kasey Maxwell
12-12-2012, 6:53 PM
Something like this ?247747

Dee Gallo
12-12-2012, 7:57 PM
I do almost all my work on personal vintage items which are not replaceable and very valuable. I feel like it is my responsibility to be SURE there will be no mistakes, so I check, double check and triple check myself on every job. After many hundreds of such jobs, I made a mistake on one and could not make it right... made me want to quit. But the customer was okay with it and I gave her a refund, credit and many sincere apologies. It did not stop her from sending me more work or recommending me to others either. Now I quadruple check myself.

If you are professional, it will show and your customers will respect the fact that you did your very best for them. Anyone who would try to sue was going to try to find fault somehow some way. Spending some time discussing the chance for trouble will let you know how they feel about messing up the job and you can decide from there whether to decline or not. If they have the slightest apprehension, just say no.

cheers, dee

Mike Troncalli
12-12-2012, 9:20 PM
Thanks for all of your replies. Like Dee said. I double, triple and quadruple check everything that I do. But like I said in my first post 99% of everything we do is our own products. I have turned jobs in the past because I did not feel comfortable with them. I do tell customers that there is always a chance of something going wrong during the engraving.

I am going to say something that may some of you off, but I have to respond. I really just wanted to know if somebody had an existing contract that they were willing to share. I really didn't come to the forum to be admonished by anybody. Weather or not that was your intention I don't know, but I can tell you I sure took it that way.

Don't think I will be making any new posts here for a while. Call me a baby I really don't care. I run a business and I come here for helpful information not to be talked down to.

Thank You.

AL Ursich
12-12-2012, 9:20 PM
"Spending some time discussing the chance for trouble will let you know how they feel about messing up the job and you can decide from there whether to decline or not. If they have the slightest apprehension, just say no."


Great advice.... Thanks,


AL

Dan Hintz
12-13-2012, 6:19 AM
I am going to say something that may some of you off, but I have to respond. I really just wanted to know if somebody had an existing contract that they were willing to share. I really didn't come to the forum to be admonished by anybody. Weather or not that was your intention I don't know, but I can tell you I sure took it that way.

Don't think I will be making any new posts here for a while. Call me a baby I really don't care. I run a business and I come here for helpful information not to be talked down to.

This forum is made up of a whole slew of different people... different attitudes, different personalities, and so on. 99.5% of them will provide you with helpful advice, even if it seems like it's coming as an admonishment... it's because they've been there, done that. They're actually trying to save you time / money / energy, but it's up to you to pick through the personality to find the good advice. If you don't get what you were actually asking for, then it's likely you haven't waited long enough or it simply doesn't exist. I won't call you a baby, but you need to grow a thicker skin if you intend to request advice from a room fool of strangers... not everyone is a fluffy puppy.

Scott Shepherd
12-13-2012, 8:09 AM
Thanks for all of your replies. Like Dee said. I double, triple and quadruple check everything that I do. But like I said in my first post 99% of everything we do is our own products. I have turned jobs in the past because I did not feel comfortable with them. I do tell customers that there is always a chance of something going wrong during the engraving.

I am going to say something that may some of you off, but I have to respond. I really just wanted to know if somebody had an existing contract that they were willing to share. I really didn't come to the forum to be admonished by anybody. Weather or not that was your intention I don't know, but I can tell you I sure took it that way.

Don't think I will be making any new posts here for a while. Call me a baby I really don't care. I run a business and I come here for helpful information not to be talked down to.

Thank You.

Sorry you see it that way. What you see is several people telling you what you're attempting to do isn't going to help you in the legal world as much as you perceive it will. You chose to ignore that advice and see it as being admonished. People are TRYING to help you, NOT admonish you. You should take it as such.

Tim Bateson
12-13-2012, 8:13 AM
This forum is made up of a whole slew of different people... different attitudes, different personalities, and so on. 99.5% of them will provide you with helpful advice, even if it seems like it's coming as an admonishment... it's because they've been there, done that. They're actually trying to save you time / money / energy, but it's up to you to pick through the personality to find the good advice. If you don't get what you were actually asking for, then it's likely you haven't waited long enough or it simply doesn't exist. I won't call you a baby, but you need to grow a thicker skin if you intend to request advice from a room fool of strangers... not everyone is a fluffy puppy.

Well put. We are all family here Mike and all learning every day from this Forum.

Albert Nix
12-13-2012, 8:30 AM
Personally I will not take on a one off job on something that I can't replace. If I am not sure how something is going to turn out I try to get a sample to get my setting homed in on. I am kind like Scott on the metter, if I handed most of my customers a waiver, that would most likely end the deal. And it may depend on where you are doing business. In an upscale location where everything that you deal with is custom one off items the folks may expect such, but not where I am from. We are not all a bunch of red necks around here but if you walk into some of the local waterhole without at least a knife in your pocket they will issue you one at the door lol.

Ross Moshinsky
12-13-2012, 8:44 AM
The rule of thumb in the engraving world is don't engrave something if you're not prepared to replace it. There is a trend on here where people think you have to engrave everything. You don't. 9 times out of 10, a plate is just as effective, it's ten times more efficient, and it drops your risk down to essentially nothing.

As for the waiver, I'd download a boiler plate one from the net and customize it the way you want. As for how they hold up in court, it will depend. If it's a machine error or material issue, it might absolve you of any problems. If it's an incompetence thing (you spell something wrong or simply don't know what you're doing), I don't see it helping you much. We don't use waivers and we've been in the business for 12 years. We just try to limit our risk.

Mike Null
12-13-2012, 8:48 AM
!5 years in business without a waiver. I just explain the risk or sometimes turn down the job.


Ross' point about plates is an excellent one and can save you from a sticky wicket.

Dan Hintz
12-13-2012, 9:20 AM
Mike (Null)... other than using the word "fool" when I meant to use the word "full", what did you edit in my post? Don't think I used any bad words... now you have me curious.

Martin Boekers
12-13-2012, 10:01 AM
This forum is only good as it's participants. The subject about disclaimers has surfaced on this forum
as most all subjects. Did you search the forum first to see how it was addressed in the past? As being
an active participant here, I see this all to often that many do not search before asking.

If you didn't find the advice you are seeking I suggest you contact a lawyer and find out the viability
of such a contract. Then if you indeed have them sign it and it does hold up, then for what ever reason
it turns out badly, depending upon the client they could address it through BBB local Chamber of Commerce,
make nasty reviews all over the web.

Most people (myself included) sign this type of stuff without thinking that it really could go wrong.

As a business operator it's your choice on the work you will except. If you nervous at all think about
just saying no.

Mike Null
12-13-2012, 2:26 PM
Dan

It was from the other guys quote.

Dan Hintz
12-13-2012, 3:59 PM
Gotcha.....

Walt Langhans
12-13-2012, 5:20 PM
from a room fool of strangers...

I'm not sure if that was a typo or a freudian slip but it works both ways and made me laugh out loud. Thanks!

Rodne Gold
12-14-2012, 12:44 AM
I DO have a waiver in my terms and conditions on my website ..but I know no one reads them so its really not legally effective
Ultimately you have to have SOME responsibility for the work you do if you tout yourself as a professional. If we mess up , we replace without question. Here are my terms and conditions ..with the waiver (linking to my site is sort of verboten in Sawmills TOS) , so I have listed it here

Terms & Conditions
1) We will produce samples and design proofs on signed acceptance of quotations only. If an order is not placed after sampling, we will charge for the sample/design at a minimum of 10x the unit price quoted. We will also add in any artwork fees incurred during the sampling process.

2) We will produce samples on spec on high volume jobs , Please contact us should you require any further information.

3) For Laser and other types of engraving, we generally require an extra item to engrave to determine optimal settings.

4) We generally do not charge extra for rush jobs if they can be accommodated. Please note however, if every one of your jobs becomes a rush job, we will start adding a surcharge of 30%.

5) Turnaround times are generally in the order of 3-5 working days from final acceptances of proofs etc. This does however also depend on the magnitude of the job and whether it is achievable in that period.

6) We will NOT under ANY circumstances take engraving or orders or quote over the phone - this leads to major problems. We do proof read engraving and institute quality control and will query glaring errors in common words. Names and unusual languages will be engraved as given to us.

7) Should an order be placed and quantities reduced and those quantities fall outside a price break, we will charge at the higher price. Should the balance of the order be placed, we will credit the difference between the higher prices items and the lower ones.

8) We do not count quantities delivered to us or check condition of goods. We will not be held responsible for short deliveries or damaged goods. If there is substantial unpacking and repacking required, this will be charged for.

9) The limit of our liability will be equal only to the branding charge on items supplied to us. Should the main run differ from the sample provided for engraving, we will advise you as to whether it can indeed be branded and if there will be additional costs involved.