Naniwa water stone grit sizes

[Joe Cowan]

I am thinking of buying a set of these stones and finally settling down to one sharpening method. They come in multiple grits and I am thinking of buying the 400, 1000, 5000 and the 10,000. Does this sound like the right spacing? Any suggestions appreciated.

[David Weaver]

Which ones are these, the choseras or the superstones?

[Chris Griggs]

I am thinking of buying a set of these stones and finally settling down to one sharpening method. They come in multiple grits and I am thinking of buying the 400, 1000, 5000 and the 10,000. Does this sound like the right spacing? Any suggestions appreciated.

Super stones or Chosera's? If Super stones I don't know. Chosera's that's fine, get that set and be happy and never look back, you'll love it.

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Read on for confusion, other considerations, and possible paralysis by analysis

Skip the 400 and get either a King 300 or a Sigma 400 from Stu. The Cho 400 is quite nice but there are better, faster stones in that range. Also, I like the Chosera 800 better than the 1000... Its very similar, but its just a bit faster and for whatever reason I find it to be nicer to use, hard to explain but it behaves more consistently for me - I think it (the 800) could be used in any sequence that the 1k could be used in. I absolutely love the Cho 800!



(Dave, I see you have replaced your "Brusha, Brusha, Brusha" tag line. You've had that since I started reading and posting here. I'm not sure I can get used to a new tag line)

[David Weaver]

I think the chosera 400 is probably finer than most 400 grit stones. I would look for something cheaper and more coarse, too.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've even used a 400 grit stone in the last year, and it was only on japanese tools that I can recall.

[Joe Cowan]

It is the Chosera line I am thinking of buying.

[Joe Cowan]

Who and where do I find this Stu??
Super stones or Chosera's? If Super stones I don't know. Chosera's that's fine, get that set and be happy and never look back, you'll love it.

-------------------------
Read on for confusion, other considerations, and possible paralysis by analysis

Skip the 400 and get either a King 300 or a Sigma 400 from Stu. The Cho 400 is quite nice but there are better, faster stones in that range. Also, I like the Chosera 800 better than the 1000... Its very similar, but its just a bit faster and for whatever reason I find it to be nicer to use, hard to explain but it behaves more consistently for me - I think it (the 800) could be used in any sequence that the 1k could be used in. I absolutely love the Cho 800!



(Dave, I see you have replaced your "Brusha, Brusha, Brusha" tag line. You've had that since I started reading and posting here. I'm not sure I can get used to a new tag line)

[David Weaver]

The 3000, 5000 and 10000 are closely bunched. If you want an interim stone between an 800/1000 and the 10,000, I would get the 3000 stone. The grit size in the 3000 stone is more like most others' 5000 stones, and perhaps finer than some.

I think the 3000 grit stone has 4 micron particles, the 5000 has 3 and the 10000 has something in the range of 1.5 microns. The 10k stone can *easily* handle the jump from the 3000 stone. It can handle the jump from most 1000 stones, it's fast, it's very abrasive dense and the abrasive is sort of in between in size between 8k stones and most of the 12-15k grit offerings.

[David Weaver]

(Dave, I see you have replaced your "Brusha, Brusha, Brusha" tag line. You've had that since I started reading and posting here. I'm not sure I can get used to a new tag line)

Too much talk about dovetails lately, I just can't take it!! And in however many years I've had the Ipana signature tagline, two people asked about it and nobody guessed it correctly on the first try. I figured anyone who grew up in the 50s or 60s would have known it and remembered it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0po-g28uTg

[Chris Griggs]

Who and where do I find this Stu??

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404

Be sure to switch the money from Yen to USD.

[Chris Griggs]

Too much talk about dovetails lately, I just can't take it!! And in however many years I've had the Ipana signature tagline, two people asked about it and nobody guessed it correctly on the first try. I figured anyone who grew up in the 50s or 60s would have known it and remembered it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0po-g28uTg

I think I googled it when I first started posting here. Based on the tagline I assumed you were in you 60s until you did your Creeker interview and I learned you were just a few years older than me.

[David Weaver]

My wife thinks I'm in my 60s. I just like retro commercials better than new ones for some reason, and when someone mentioned ipana to me several times i looked it up and found those commercials. They're great. My daughter (who is 3) runs around singing the song when she brushes her teeth.

[Chris Griggs]

The 3000, 5000 and 10000 are closely bunched. If you want an interim stone between an 800/1000 and the 10,000, I would get the 3000 stone. The grit size in the 3000 stone is more like most others' 5000 stones, and perhaps finer than some.


Agreed, I'd go 800, 3k, 10k. Its not the typical progression you see for stones, but I think for the Chos its a better one.

They're very fast so they can cover broader ranges than some stones.

[David Weaver]

Here's the chosera grit stuff provided by some knife sharpening place. No guarantees it's perfect, but they describe the 10k as 1.74 micron, the 3k as 4 and the 5k as 2.8 microns.

Whatever the binder does with the 10k, you get an exceptionally good polish for a 1.74 micron stone, and very good sharpness. You can notice the difference between the chosera's bevel picture and the shapton 8k, which has about the same size particles, but a much harder binder.

http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74:grits-comparison-chart-for-the-wicked-edge-sharpener&catid=31:general&Itemid=46

Note the similar abrasive size of the shapton 1k and the chosera 800. Stu made reference before that shaptons grit rating for the 1000 stone should be 800. Shaptons 1k pro is still my favorite medium stone, and the 1k glasstone is still one of my least favorites.

[Jason Coen]

Here's the chosera grit stuff provided by some knife sharpening place. No guarantees it's perfect, but they describe the 10k as 1.74 micron, the 3k as 4 and the 5k as 2.8 microns.

Whatever the binder does with the 10k, you get an exceptionally good polish for a 1.74 micron stone, and very good sharpness. You can notice the difference between the chosera's bevel picture and the shapton 8k, which has about the same size particles, but a much harder binder.

http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74:grits-comparison-chart-for-the-wicked-edge-sharpener&catid=31:general&Itemid=46

Note the similar abrasive size of the shapton 1k and the chosera 800. Stu made reference before that shaptons grit rating for the 1000 stone should be 800. Shaptons 1k pro is still my favorite medium stone, and the 1k glasstone is still one of my least favorites.

Interesting link. Thanks.

And agreed 100% on the 1k Glasstone. I bought it not knowing any better. It cuts fine, generally feels ok, but it lasted less than a year. That's unacceptable for the price.

[Jason Coen]

My wife thinks I'm in my 60s.

My wife thinks I'm Ron Swanson.

[Chris Griggs]

I still haven't been able to find any info on the micron rating of my Naniwa Snow White. Not that it matters, as I'm quite happy with it. I've just always been curious. I wonder if Stu knows what the actual ratings of the Naniwa stones are...

[David Weaver]

My wife thinks I'm Ron Swanson.

That's funny. Someone at work asked me last year if I'd ever seen parks and recreation. I said "no". They proceeded to tell me about ron swanson, anyway, and how he's the same way at work as I am, and we talk alike and have the same rosy outlook.

He's probably more polite than me at work, though. I still haven't seen more than a few minutes of it, but I can sort of see where they got the idea.

[Zach Dillinger]

I keep a laminated copy of the Ron Swanson "Pyramid of Greatness" on the wall in my office. Good stuff.

[David Weaver]

I still haven't been able to find any info on the micron rating of my Naniwa Snow White. Not that it matters, as I'm quite happy with it. I've just always been curious. I wonder if Stu knows what the actual ratings of the Naniwa stones are...

If the chosera is 10k is 1.74, I'll go with saying that the snow white is 2

Or 1.74.

Secretly, for Christmas, I want to get a king gold 8000 stone and a naniwa snow white. But I already blew my Chrismas kitty on a razor strop.

[Chris Griggs]

If the chosera is 10k is 1.74, I'll go with saying that the snow white is 2

Or 1.74.

Secretly, for Christmas, I want to get a king gold 8000 stone and a naniwa snow white. But I already blew my Chrismas kitty on a razor strop.

Even though that's absolutely the last thing you should be buying, I would love it if you got a SW. Just because I'd be curious to see if you or agree with my assessment of it or if I'm just full of hot air (which may very well be the case).

[David Weaver]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same or almost the same thing as the chosera. When I was looking for information about the chosera (of course, after I bought it - and not archie has it), I noticed that there was a euro site that was carrying it for about $140 or something *with VAT* at first. They carried it for a period of time even after Naniwa set the price in the US and Stu said it's genuinely expensive in japan.

When the price went up, there was an uproar on some forums basically along the lines of "it's almost exactly the same as the snow white, why is it $260?"

The fact that fujibato was selling gobs of 6000 grit full sized magnesia binder stones for $38 shipped suggests that there's not necessarily anything exorbitantly expensive in making a chosera (who knows, maybe it's something else?), but that they developed a feel to the stones and felt like they could get a lot of money for them. I think stu mentioned that they show up in a lot of high-end knife shops, so that makes me think they are given a williams sonoma kind of pricing.

The cho 10k still is my favorite woodworking finish stone. It puts a bright polish on stuff fast and it's not too too fine, so it can make a step up from almost anything. It is just a tiny hair less keen on a hanging hair test basis than the SP 13k, which has abrasives a little less than half the size. Of course, archie has my stone (I guess it's his stone now), so I don't get to use it much. I use the shapton more than anything else, by far, but the cho with a soak was sort of like "what would I change about this stone....hmm...nothing....maybe the price".

I did just buy george's frictionite pair, which are some sort of graded rhodesian natural mineral. They are a little bit nicer than choseras, but more expensive and not as fast. So I really don't need to buy any sharpening stones, I guess, and I haven't had to since I bought my first set of kings. The lumberjacks are nutty for frictionite #00s (which are two sided), but I guess they aren't quite as nutty about the stones when the abrasives are split into two separate stones.

I have a natural south african stone on the way in the mail, too, one if the first new finds of a super fine natural stone available in a large quantity in quite some time - also razor goods. If this were a video game, I'd be "powered up on stones" at this point.

The razor board has a complete automated classifieds system - linked to paypal and all, and I live one mile from a post office that's got a 24-hour drop off section. It really is an enabler for someone like me. I wouldn't buy and try so many stones these days if it weren't for the fact that it takes about 15 minutes to list, sell, box and drop off a stone. I dumped two hone slates, a coticule and a charnley forest in the last week. I sometimes feel like I should irritate the "nobody should do anything but make furniture and talk furniture crowd" by taking a picture of each type of stone and describing them...because despite the fact that the esoteria motivates only shavers now, at one point or another, all of these stones were used by woodoworkers. Charnleys and hone slates were used in the UK, coticules were used in belgium and germany (and probably other parts of continental europe)....

Even natural japanese hones were used in the US before the turn of the 20th century, but by professionals only, and eschers were used by woodworkers over here from time to time by folks trying to chase the perfect edge, I guess. The nicest escher I've seen to date (less some scars on the surface from sharpening tools) came out of an carpenter's tool box.

I hope we answered the OP's question earlier.

[Archie England]

Oh, yes, I am developing a quite favorable opinion of the Chosera 10k--politely sent my way by David!!!!! And, it follows the Cho 3k very nicely; also, follows the Sigma 6k.

Somehow (I'm just guessing here) I ended up with Stu's Sigma Power ceramics (400, 1200, 6000, 10000, and 13000) and with the Chosera 400, 600, 1000, 3000, and 10000. Both sets are excellent!!!!! Both sets are soakers but the Sigmas are less trouble to use, can be perma-soaked, and are not finicky!!!! The Choseras are consistent, are very finicky about time in the water (never over an hour), and are a tad harder to use. But, once learned, the Choseras produce a really sharp edge very quickly. Again, they're both great stones. You cannot go wrong!...if you got the mullah :).

[Jussi Auvinen]

I had the naniwa SS stones. They sure polish like nothing else, but they were a real pain to use sometimes.

The stiction you get with these stones was a serious problem. Plus they warped quite badly when they dried after using. For razors these stones would be nice but for tools I'd get something else.

[Joe Cowan]

Ok, I purchased the 800, 3000 and 10,000 Cho stones. The company says each stone comes with a maintenance stone. Is this what I would need to flatten? I was thinking before, that each stone would be flattened with the next lowest grit stone.

"Nagura Stone Included
An artificial Nagura Stone is included with each stone. The Nagura Stone is used to maintain the surface and to make a slurry prior to sharpening. It will also help maintain the flatness between lapping. Since each stone comes with its own Nagura Stone, you don’t have to worry about sharing grits with your coarse and fine stones."

[David Weaver]

You could probably rub the three stones together to keep them flat. If you soak them, they'll be soft enough that it won't matter if the finer stones grade the coarser stones a little bit.

The rub stone that naniwa includes is the same for all of the stones. When you use it on the finer stones, if you do, rinse them off before using them. It's a fairly coarse rub stone, probably similar to a 600 or 800 grit stone. You'd still get a good edge off of any of the stones with the slurry from the rub stone on them, but if you have a diamond hone, I think you're better off setting those rub stones aside.

They are GREAT rust removers, though - those rub stones. If you soak them for a couple of minutes, they're fantastic to rub rust off of chisels, plane blades, etc, because they're flat and relatively hard, but not so hard that they won't stay fresh. Much better than sanding a bunch of random marks into something with finger pressure.

[Chris Griggs]

Congrats Joe, those are some great stones. I think you'll be glad you went with those grit sizes. All the reatailers put the 1K, 5k, 10k together as a package but like we said before I think what you went with is a better setup. The 800 is my favorite medium stone I've used, as an added bonus it doesn't bleed incredible hulk all over the place when its new the way the cho 1k does - the 800 is a burnt orange, sorta similar in color to the king stones. Be sure to let us know what you think when they arrive.

Also, I agree with Dave the for flattening a diamond stone will be best.

David, I'll need to try that with the little rub stone - I hardly ever use mine. I occasionally will use it to refresh the surface of a my 800 to get it cutting faster, but I like the rust remover idea a lot - gonna give that a try.

[Joe Cowan]

Congrats Joe, those are some great stones. I think you'll be glad you went with those grit sizes. All the reatailers put the 1K, 5k, 10k together as a package but like we said before I think what you went with is a better setup. The 800 is my favorite medium stone I've used, as an added bonus it doesn't bleed incredible hulk all over the place when its new the way the cho 1k does - the 800 is a burnt orange, sorta similar in color to the king stones. Be sure to let us know what you think when they arrive.

Also, I agree with Dave the for flattening a diamond stone will be best.

David, I'll need to try that with the little rub stone - I hardly ever use mine. I occasionally will use it to refresh the surface of a my 800 to get it cutting faster, but I like the rust remover idea a lot - gonna give that a try.


OK, which diamond flattening plate? Also, could the diamond plate be used as a course stone for taking out nicks etc from worn blades?

[Chris Griggs]

If you are considering ordering one of the 300/400 grit stones I mentioned previously from Tools From Japan (Stus store) get a diamond plate from him. He sells 2 brands iWood and Atoma. Both are good, I have an iWood, but supposedly the Atoma is the best there is. No I would not use it as your coarse stone - you certainly can, but diamond plate can/do wear out when used on steel (how quick depends on the quality of the plate and how hard you use it). Used only on to flatten waterstones diamond plates will LAST! Honestly, I don't know a ton about different diamond plates though. Wait for Dave W to post again and see what he says.

[David Weaver]

If money isn't an object, I'd go with the Atoma. Their durability is super, their spacing of the diamonds (yes, that's a bizarre statement) is perfect, and they are the flattest of the flat.

For that set, I'd use the #400 atoma.

And I would use it only on the stones, or possibly very little with metal (Which will knock some of the initial smartness off the diamonds), but not for heavy grinding. It's just safer and better to use it only for stones, though. It'll last forever on the stones you've mentioned.

For coarse work on nicks and things, buy 80 grit gold al-ox PSA stick down paper and stick it to something hard. It will be superior to diamonds, and probably cheaper in the end.

If you get a coarse stone, you can flatten it with other means or use the atoma.

I have an iwood copy (from before we were able to get iwoods), and DMT duosharps. They all work OK for the stones, but the atoma is a better piece of gear for waterstones.

[Joe Cowan]

Stones have arrived. I am now confused on soaking time, or if I even need to soak. What do I do?

[David Weaver]

between 5 minutes and an hour.

Don't leave them in water permanently, it may be curtains if you do.

They can be used splash and go, but they are dreamy to use with 15 minutes of soak.

When I use mine, I like to dump them in water as soon as I go in the shop, or use them once splash and go and then drop them in the water and pull them back out the next item I have to sharpen.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah what David said. I'll often use my as splash and go and once they've been used a while its gets easier to use them with just a splash. But with a 10-15 minute soak is where they really shine. There is also some variation among the stones. For example, I find the 800 to be completely dreamy even with just splash, but when I used my friends 1k I found that a soak was definitely preferable. I tend to drop them in a tub as soon as I enter the shop or just put a really heavy does of water on top of them and let it soak in for a bit. Even just a couple minutes of submersion or of having water sit on them makes a difference. They definitely can be used as splash and go, its just not where they shine the most. Like Dave said, DO NOT PERMASOAK THESE.