lapping on a Tormek?

[miguel bernardo]

Possible dumb question alert - you´ve been warned :). OK, so thanks for looking at a noob question ... today i´ve spent most of the afternoon lapping a vintage (and beaten-up) Sorby 1" paring chisel. i guess i´m almost half-way through it, the thing takes ages (i´m doing it on a black DMT, so i guess it´s not the "stone" fault). So it just crossed my mind... can one use the side of a Tormek wheel to lap the sole of a blade? if so, that would be nice point to get me closer to buying one, i still have some fairly old n´rusty blades to chew... i reckon the smaller (and much cheaper) t-3 would be too small for that though.

thanks for your attention,

cheers,
Miguel.

[george wilson]

I don't see why not,if the side of the Tormek stone is flat. You need to be extra careful,though,when using power to not tilt the chisel a bit when applying it to the stone. You could easily grind a dollop out of it that would be very difficult to erase by hand.

[David Weaver]

The stone will soon glaze over, and you are likely to end up with a back that is not as flat as you'd like (not because the stone glazes, though, but because the wheel is low speed and has some grip on a tool). I tried it a copule of times - if the tormek stone was more friable it might work, but you essentially grade the surface of the stone to a finer cut, like any hard sotne.

Give it a try, and you'll see what I mean. You won't hurt anything, just make sure you place the edge of the chisel closest to the tang on the stone first and then lay down the back onto the side of the stone. Make sure you have a good hold on it, and make sure you don't set the edge-end down on the stone first.

[David Weaver]

Some 60-80 grit norton 3x paper glued down flat (no movement at all) on a hard surface will serve you the best in this case.

[Mike Henderson]

What I've seen when people try to flatten on the side of a Tormak is that they can't hold the chisel or plane blade perfectly and they wind up making the back convex. If you have a convex chisel now, a good thing to do is to take a lesson from the Japanese chisel makers and cut a very shallow concave into the back of the chisel (using a grinding wheel). Alternately, David's suggestion (above) is good.

Mike

[george wilson]

Perhaps it takes too much skill to risk doing it on a Tormek. I could do it,but I'm very experienced at freehand grinding. Best to do as David suggests,using a flat,non moving,more aggressive abrasive.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I tried it twice on a tormek.... Not pretty. Glad I used some junk chisels for practice. If you don't have a suitably coarse stone, then use sandpaper.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Mike's got a good call, and I've used a similar technique on other used tools I've come across with a belly. Garret Hack details the technique some in his book on planes. Even though I have a bench grinder now, last time I still used a small grinding wheel chucked in an electric drill. It's not a deep hollow - just enough that the tool is resting on two points so you don't continue to make something convex while lapping. I sort of grind a little bit, go back to lapping, grind a little bit more, going back and forth between the two so you don't go too far. If you're polishing only the center when lapping, grind that out a bit to speed it up and then go back to lapping, that sort of thing. Stay away from the important surfaces by the cutting edge and you're fine. As long as you aren't grinding too deep, you'll slowly wear out anything hollow you've put in as you maintain the tool.

[John Coloccia]

I've tried it. You run into two problems:

1) it's hard to hold the chisel flat (this can be learned, I guess)
2) the wheel always wobbles a little bit....even if the wheel is dead flat, the spindle has runout

Normally, #2 is irrelevant because you dress the wheel and that makes the surface flat. No way to dress the side. I guess if it were really dead flat, it wouldn't matter...it just makes it that more difficult to hold it steady. My wheel definitely is not flat, though.

You know, I've thought about this many times and I'm really surprised that no one's made some sort of ultrasonic lapping machine available for woodworkers. Just a small granite plate that vibrates. It would save an awful lot of time and trouble for some things.

[Jim Neeley]

You know, I've thought about this many times and I'm really surprised that no one's made some sort of ultrasonic lapping machine available for woodworkers. Just a small granite plate that vibrates. It would save an awful lot of time and trouble for some things.

Hey John,

?Lortone? used to make a VibraLap for polishing flat slices of rock that'd be an interesting concept but I don't find them on Google any more.

Flat, vibrating plates, add grit or polish... Hmm.. <g>

[John Coloccia]

Hey John,

?Lortone? used to make a VibraLap for polishing flat slices of rock that'd be an interesting concept but I don't find them on Google any more.

Flat, vibrating plates, add grit or polish... Hmm.. <g>

I've considered making one, just to try it. I have enough gadgets kicking around the house that I could. I just never get around to it. When Rob Lee sees this and starts producing one, I'm going to at least expect a free sample.

[David Weaver]

If they ever make a veritas shop stool, I'm going to ask for a....

.. oh .never mind...

[miguel bernardo]

thanks so much for the replies. yes, i was afraid that it would be either too slow or too hard to keep the blade square, but i desperately need a reason to buy a sharpening gadget - for the first parts of sharpening, as i actually enjoy using water stones for honing a shiny edge, but grinding nicked old blades is not my cup of tea. grinders scare me a bit.

anyway, thanks again.

[miguel bernardo]

one more thing, the trick of purposely hollowing the back of a chisel seems a clever thing. have to try it with one of my budget chisels. thanks for the tip!

[Mike Henderson]

thanks so much for the replies. yes, i was afraid that it would be either too slow or too hard to keep the blade square, but i desperately need a reason to buy a sharpening gadget - for the first parts of sharpening, as i actually enjoy using water stones for honing a shiny edge, but grinding nicked old blades is not my cup of tea. grinders scare me a bit.

anyway, thanks again.
If you're going to buy a power sharpener, my advice is not to buy a Tormek. It's just an update of the old blacksmith's hand cranked wheel. Buy one of the flat wheel sharpeners, such as a WorkSharp 3000 or LV unit, and use it to establish the bevel. Then finish on water stones.

Mike

[Andrew Pitonyak]

If you're going to buy a power sharpener, my advice is not to buy a Tormek. It's just an update of the old blacksmith's hand cranked wheel. Buy one of the flat wheel sharpeners, such as a WorkSharp 3000 or LV unit, and use it to establish the bevel. Then finish on water stones.

I started with sand paper, but when I had a bunch of serious bevels to create, I purchased a WorkSharp, and it worked for me. I was never happy with the result from the "below the disk" sharpening.

I purchased the platform to use with the WorkSharp to help with plane blades, which was a good addition.

I purchased a Tormek, and had even better results, so I gave the WorkSharp to a friend that loves it (if it matters).

Even off the Tormek, I usually finish with a water stone. I like that it is easier to free hand after using the tormek because the bevel is not totally flat, but it is curved in so it makes it easier to register free hand.

I purchased my Tormek used.

Do you have any ability to give either or both a try before you buy?

Mike, is there something specific that you prefer about the Tormek? Were you able to flatten backs on them? I was not, but I had better luck with the WorkSharp for that than the Tormek.

[John Coloccia]

I had both. I ended up selling the Tormek. It's AWESOME for turning tools. For anything that's flat, I go to the Worksharp for establishing bevels, and just use a couple of ceramic stones and a strop for honing freehand.

The Worksharp doesn't come alive until you add the leather honing wheel and felt buff, but I find it easier to just hone and strop by hand. it's great for establishing the bevel, though.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, is there something specific that you prefer about the Tormek? Were you able to flatten backs on them? I was not, but I had better luck with the WorkSharp for that than the Tormek.
You may have misread my posting. I recommended AGAINST the tormek. I've used a Tormek a fair amount. I find that it's expensive and wet (a mess). I now use a WorkSharp 3000 to establish the bevel on a chisel or plane blade and then finish with water stones.

I'm sure other similar sharpeners, such as the Lee Valley one, would work as well as the WorkSharp.

Mike

[Jim Stewart]

I still have a lot to learn but I bought a Tormek at a garage sale probably 8 years ago. I then watched a Tormek demo at a wood show and the guy there was showing us flattening chisel backs on a Tormek. I tried that and it did seem easy for wide chisels but very hard to do on narrow tools. I have over the years changed my technique on the Tormek; I flatten on stones or sandpaper as Mike suggests. I use the Tormek now to get a hollow-ground surface and finish the tool on a Norton 5000, Norton 8000, and a Spyderco Ultrafine stone. I use the two edges of the Hollow-ground bevels as guides. Don't have to go back to the Tormek for quite a while using this method. I go back to the stones to resharpen until the edges get too wide. Then back to the Tormek. Very sharp edges in very little time.

[Jim Matthews]

Not a shop stool, a Veritas recliner.

If it were installed on a backyard Zamboni, you would really have something...

[Jim Matthews]

Kidding aside, this isn't a process you want to do on a spinning wheel with high torque.

It's a recipe for creating a sharp projectile.
Modern steel isn't so hard that a simple solution like sandpaper on a flat substrate is impractical.

As has been mentioned elsewhere - what happens at the cutting edge influences the attack angle of the cut.
The back needs to be flat enough to guide, and not much else.

[Ryan Baker]

I would not suggest the Tormek, as others have said. It is possible to do it ... I do it now and then (at least for a rough flattening on a bad surface before going to stones). I sometimes use the Tormek for this because it is sitting there -- but I wouldn't buy one for that job. I can keep it flat, but it does take some effort. You definitely need the large stone to do it, because there is a lot less space there than you think. The smaller Tormek wouldn't work for flattening on the side of the wheel.

The other problem is that it takes forever. Honestly, you will be able to flatten faster on your DMT, or a coarse stone, or sandpaper than you ever will on the Tormek. A Tormek is not a tool for shaping at all. For that you would be better with something like a Worksharp (if you feel you need a machine).

The Tormek is great for things like carving tools. For chisels and plane irons, you are way better off with waterstones, IMO. I hardly ever use my Tormek any more.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

...The other problem is that it takes forever. Honestly, you will be able to flatten faster on your DMT, or a coarse stone, or sandpaper than you ever will on the Tormek. A Tormek is not a tool for shaping at all. For that you would be better with something like a Worksharp (if you feel you need a machine).

I went to the BORG and purchased some very course grit sand paper disks, but they did not have the required center hole... SO I cut that myself, and it all worked great on the Worksharp.

[Barney Markunas]

I know people do it all of the time and I can't speak specifically about the Tormek but most vertical grinding wheels are not designed to be used for grinding on the flat. If you think kickback from a table saw is a wake-up call, imagine what it is like when a grinding wheel comes apart. Some wheels are made to take lateral loads but most are not.

I guess this is closing the barn door after the horse is gone, but... If it has taken all afternoon to prep the back of a 1-inch chisel, you probably should have started with something coarser. I don't mind setting up my tools but I'd much rather be using them to make something, even if it is just a pile of shavings.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have a Tormek, tried it, did not like it at all. Truth is I have problems getting any sort of straight bevel on a Tormek, with or without a jig. I find a belt 1-2" sander to be a much better tool for grinding steel. There is a reason custom knife makers use belt sanders for most of their work. There is a wide range of great belts out there, made for knife makers who need to remove lots of stock and then polish to perfection. The belts they make now are very slow to heat up as well. They even come in an assortment of "grits" that rivals stones, once you learn about microns vs grit.

Another option is stones designed for stock removal. Stuart Tierney at Tools from Japan can help you there. Be aware that some stones are designed to cut the newer harder metals and some are not. Be aware of what you need to work before you buy your stones. I went with stones designed for harder metals, there are lots of these showing up in chisels, plane and knife blades lately.

[Greg Portland]

today i´ve spent most of the afternoon lapping a vintage (and beaten-up) Sorby 1" paring chisel.
I think a more important question is why are you flattening the entire back of the chisel? IMO you just need to flatten the part that's (very) close to the edge.

[Jack Curtis]

Oh, please don't say that without qualification, Gregg. If you flatten only a small amount close to the edge, eventually the entire back goes out of whack.