Speaking of Marking Knives....

[Chris Griggs]

A very recent discussion about marking knives got me thinking about mine. I currently use a spear point knife made by Pfiel, but sometimes I think I might prefer something other than a spear point. In theory having single bevel makes it so the flat back tracks nicely along a ruler/straight edge, but I honestly don't find that is tracks to a ruler any better than a knife with a two side bevel. Also, there are some situations (like trying to mark tails from from a pin board on full blind dovetails) where having the main area of force coming straight out from the handle is the best for getting into hard to reach places.

In the aforementioned recent discussion George mentioned some type of German knife with a bit of a curve a the end. I've also seen folks use what look to be chipcarving or other small craving knifes for marking.

Anyway, just sort of curious what shape knife folks like? What shapes/or types of knifes do folks use other than spear points or other single bevel? Thinking about it, I'm thinking now I might like some type of small slightly hooked knife better than (or in addition to) my spear point. Just kinda thinking out loud here....

[David Weaver]

I haven't yet met a type I couldn't get along with, but I do like knives with the points muted some.

My favorite single bevel knife is the cheapest white steel japanese knife I could find. I don't know how much it was, $12 or something. It still does much better if the back side of the point is honed off so it's better supported. I used it last night to cut the shell cordovan leather shown in the FWW video thread.

A chipcarving type knife might be nice, too. Again with the point muted a little bit so it doesn't follow long grain.

[Josh Rudolph]

As I make (butcher) more things I am still forming an opinion. I currently use a single bevel spear point. It works well for me so far. I do like having the single bevel that allows me to mark the mating side of dovetails close (I cut both tails and pins first, just depends on the application). As I play with different size dovetails, I think this could become more beneficial if I make them small enough to the point that I cannot tilt a double bevel knife. Then I begin to wonder how much structural integrity the dovetail would actually be providing at that point. That is not meant to become a topic for argument...at least not in this thread!

I will be playing around with both purchased ;) and shop made marking knives in the future as I deem fit or just get bored. I enjoy the thought and process of making my own tools (meaning I have made a few and have a lot I want to make), but am certainly not against buying them either.

I do think a slight curved blade would allow for a little more freedom in hand and wrist movement with marking and not relying on just a single point.

[Chris Griggs]

I do think a slight curved blade would allow for a little more freedom in hand and wrist movement with marking and not relying on just a single point.

Yeah that's kinda what I was thinking. I don't really have any kinda problem with my knife . It works great most of the time (this is kinda a pointless thread in that respect I guess).

I like the idea of having a couple different types though. There are some situations where a different angle of approach might make things easier - though at the end of the day, just about anything smallish and sharpish will work.

[Dale Cruea]

I have both side sided and double beveled knives I use. I made some of my own design to test.
I still have not decided what works for me.
I usually use a chip carving knife. It does not seem to follow the grain as bad as my spear pointed marking knife.

[John Coloccia]

Alright....don't anyone laugh. Aside from using whatever knife I happen to have handy, I've found that my two best marking thingies are:

1) the thin blade from a dull pocket knife
or
2) a mechanical pencil

I take the pencil, rub it at an angle on sandpaper for a second, and that gives me a razor sharp, bevelled edge....and a razor sharp line that never has a tendency to follow any grain. Harry Becker showed me the pencil thing for marking guitar nuts. Once I tried it, it made marking with a knife seem a little looney, actually, and I rarely rarely rarely mark with a knife unless I can't get the pencil to work (like on a piece of shiny plastic, for example).

Sometimes simplest is best...for me, anyhow.

edit: BTW, I think there's a distinct advantage to marking with a pencil. When I cut to a sharp knife line, I can't see when I've gone past because the line disappears. When I cut to a pencil mark, I hit the edge of the line, but because the entire line doesn't disappear I can immediately see if I'm off, even just the teeny tiniest bit. It's very easy to see a small taper in the pencil line I've left behind. That's just what works for me.

[Jim Koepke]

There are some situations where a different angle of approach might make things easier - though at the end of the day, just about anything smallish and sharpish will work.

One of my marking knives is made from an old plane blade. One is made from an old saw blade. Neither of them is anything real special, at least not to anyone but me.

Heck, one can use a pencil to mark their cuts.

What ever works if a person is comfortable with it is fine.

jtk

[Zach Dillinger]

I marked my joints out with an exacto for a long time, before someone sent me a very fancy marking knife / awl set for a Secret Santa gift exchange a couple of years ago. They both work great. My friend Jon Fox made me a very nice cutting gauge and awl set in September, so that awl has taken over some of my marking duties, especially in walnut.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I use a pencil more and more. There are times when the knife makes sense - when I can't see a pencil a line, or when I want the registration a knife line provides. But I prefer the pencil when it works for the task. Dovetails, for instance, I've been marking the baseline with a knife and/or a gauge, because it gives good registration for the final paring chisel cuts, but everything else on the joint I mark with pencil. I agree with John that it helps me sneak up on things.

I like the 2mm drafting lead holders over mechanical pencils, and often sharpening is just running it on a piece of fine sandpaper.

I've also found the "half pencil" Frank Ford espouses (http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Tools/HalfPencil/halfpencil.html) invaluable at the times I need it.

[Chris Griggs]

Actually, I've been using a mechanical pencil more and more to. Like Joshua if I need the registration of knife line I use the knife, but I've started using a pencil for dovetails to. I should get one of those nice drafting pencils too.

Its just easier to see everything, and if your know how to saw TO the line, not on the line it really doesn't matter if the mark is a bit wider than a knife mark would be.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

You can still get them at most Staples stores, and a lot of art stores too. It's like 7 bucks, but I've never had one go bad. The lead is more expensive than mechanical pencil lead at first, but I also end up using it almost till it's gone, and very rarely does half my lead end up on the floor in little broken nibs like it does with mechanical pencil lead.

[John Coloccia]

That's mostly what I use too. Those Staedtler Mars holders do seem to last forever. The sharpener too.

[george wilson]

to tell the truth,I,too use a sharp pencil most of the time. My German bench knife with a double bevel works just fine. I just tilt the blade so that the knife cuts right along the side of the square or rule.

I must confess that over 40 years ago,I bought a marking knife from Woodcraft,but have never ever used it. It has a rather strange blade shape to it anyway,and the other end is a rather fat awl blade. Obviously,anyone could make a marking knife from an old hacksaw blade,piece of spring steel(same thing),or whatever tempered bit of steel they have on hand. I just haven't bothered to do so.

I should get into making marking knives to sell,though. They seem to be popular,and are quick to make.

[Zach Dillinger]

I'd buy one George. Not that I need one... :)

[Jason Coen]

Hmmmmm...

:p

[David Weaver]

If Jason buys one of George's knives, I'm going to call him a high roller!!! :)

[Jason Coen]

If Jason buys one of George's knives, I'm going to call him a high roller!!! :)

Honestly, I'd be burning up the intrawebs to have something, anything in my shop that George made. I think I've saved every picture he's posted of something he's made and look at them often for ideas and inspiration. In my shop a marking knife made by George would be placed in a gold stand and illuminated by a big Hollywood spotlight. :D

[Zach Dillinger]

Honestly, I'd be burning up the intrawebs to have something, anything in my shop that George made. I think I've saved every picture he's posted of something he's made and look at them often for ideas and inspiration. In my shop a marking knife made by George would be placed in a gold stand and illuminated by a big Hollywood spotlight. :D

that's why I would want one... minus the stand and spotlight.

[Jason Coen]

that's why I would want one... minus the stand and spotlight.

It'd go in a special box with through dovetails, no doubt. :p

[John Coloccia]

The problem with George is that he's so good at everything that I can't decide what to ask him for. If I ever meet him in person, I think I'm going to break all his fingers because it's JUST NOT FAIR. That said, if he ever wants to make me a little scratch stock for scraping the color coat off guitar binding, I'd surely pay for it. :D

[Sam Murdoch]

Mechanical pencil and sandpaper sander for me too. And you can get different colors for those hard to see black on dark wood situations.

[Mel Fulks]

The ads could say "I make em, and I use em". There's nothing quite as effective as a good celebrity endorsement!

[James Conrad]

I use an awl. Gets into tight spaces and find it does not follow the grain the way a typical marking knife can.

[brian c miller]

I'd settle for a pencil sharpened by geroge.

[Andrae Covington]

That's mostly what I use too. Those Staedtler Mars holders do seem to last forever. The sharpener too.

I'm still using the ones I bought for highschool drafting class.

It's getting a little more difficult to find 2mm lead these days, but they're still around, so you're not limited to the 2H to HB midrange. I'm currently using a 4H left over from college. The 9H is so hard, it's a pencil and a marking knife.:eek: (The science doesn't bear this out... graphite is about 1 or 2 on the ordinal Mohs scale, while hardened steel is around 7 or 8, and diamond 10. But nevermind the science, a hard lead will leave a distinct impression in wood.)

Along with the drafting pencil, I use the LV striking knife. I used to try to sharpen the tip to a sharp point, but discovered after a while that it works better if it's a little rounded over, as others have attested. My only real complaint is that the blade is pretty short. I need to buy/make a longer knife for dovetails. (By the way, the 2mm diameter of the drafting lead, at least in a hard lead like 4H, can cantilever quite a ways out of the holder to reach into smaller spaces, without breaking. But it's still wider than a thin knife.)

[Derek Cohen]

Knives, pencils and scratch awls all have a place.

If I am sawing to a line then I want one that is knifed - there is no grey area there. A knife is for cross-grain striking and a scratch awl is for with-grain striking (the fine knife blade can get "distracted" by the grain). Sharp pencils are useful for marking out, particularly where you do not wish to leave a mark on the wood surface.

The scratch awl here is the type to which I refer. Hold it like a pencil. Those bulb-handle-types are inappropriate for marking out.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/KnivesforMichaelConnor.jpg

Some knives I have just completed for Christmas gifts ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Knives/Knives2.jpg

Can you guess the woods? :) (one is a surprise)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I use an awl.

Sometimes an awl is my tool of choice.

It used to be possible to buy dart sharpeners at pubs that had dart leagues. They are great for sharpening awls. That is all mine is used for since giving up on darts ages ago.

Did a quick search. Amazon has some. Likely available through some sporting goods stores.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Can you guess the woods?

None of them look much like what grows here in Washington.

One almost looks like black walnut.

jtk

[Jason Coen]

Black palm, jarrah (?), wenge, wenge, no idea, black walnut.

And back to rocking the baby...

[Chris Griggs]

That's mostly what I use too. Those Staedtler Mars holders do seem to last forever. The sharpener too.

Think I'll grab one of these. I'm sick of snapping my mechanical pencil lead.

Would love something made by George too, I mean, who wouldn't?!!!

[Carl Beckett]

You can still get them at most Staples stores, and a lot of art stores too. It's like 7 bucks, but I've never had one go bad. The lead is more expensive than mechanical pencil lead at first, but I also end up using it almost till it's gone, and very rarely does half my lead end up on the floor in little broken nibs like it does with mechanical pencil lead.


Another consideration on these mechanical pencils (or drafting pencils) is you can get whatever lead hardness you want. Harder lead can sharpen up better, and doesnt break off, or smear quite as bad.

For a knife I have to admit my most frequently used marker is an old kitchen paring knife....

[Zach Dillinger]

It'd go in a special box with through dovetails, no doubt. :p

Eeeww, no.

[David Weaver]

Eeeww, no.

Maybe if they're secret miter dovetails. I'd like to have a nice clean straight grained candle box with a sliding lid and secret miter dovetails.

[jamie shard]

I'm a high roller. I love love love my blue spruce marking knife. I love the thin-ness and springyness of the blade, the feel of the dense african blackwood (which is wonderful, a nice satin touch and even the thermal conduction/insulation of the wood feels good... maybe it reminds me of my high school clarinet? I don't know...), the shape of the handle under my fingers, and the beauty of the completely gratuitous crisply shaped ornament on the end. Like someone said, it's one of the most used shop tools, so why not love it?

http://www.bluesprucetoolworks.com/cgi/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SMK1

[Zach Dillinger]

Maybe if they're secret miter dovetails. I'd like to have a nice clean straight grained candle box with a sliding lid and secret miter dovetails.

As would I; I've never made one like that. I've always liked the look of the one that Roy made on tv a few years ago. I'd probably veneer mine, crotch mahogany or perhaps burled walnut, but I do like the secret drawers in that one.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The 2mm drafting leads are still available at a lot of art stores and online; I lucked out though and found a full package of leads at an antique shop. I only bought one package, I know wish I had got all three since they were so cheap, even though one will probably last me a really long time.

For marking knives, the two I like are the LV "Utilitas" striking knife and the nice one I have from Chester Toolworks (made by Dave here on SMC) which I just find terrific. The heavy blade and longer bevels on the Utilitas knife is handy at times for trimming tasks too.

Lately I've been grabbing the hock carving knife I recently handled, since it's often handy since I keep it close by for trimming and beveling and such.

[Jacob Muldowney]

If you are looking for a Lead Holder and extra 2mm lead, check Hobby Lobby they sell them with their drafting supplies. They even have a Holder that comes with 12 different colored 2mm lead refills. That actually might be nice depending on what wood you are using. If you are interested you can print the 40% off one item coupon from the website and get it cheap.

[John Coloccia]

The 2mm drafting leads are still available at a lot of art stores and online; I lucked out though and found a full package of leads at an antique shop. I only bought one package, I know wish I had got all three since they were so cheap, even though one will probably last me a really long time.

For marking knives, the two I like are the LV "Utilitas" striking knife and the nice one I have from Chester Toolworks (made by Dave here on SMC) which I just find terrific. The heavy blade and longer bevels on the Utilitas knife is handy at times for trimming tasks too.

Lately I've been grabbing the hock carving knife I recently handled, since it's often handy since I keep it close by for trimming and beveling and such.

just FYI: The holders, leads and sharpeners are readily available at Office Max, Office Depot, Staples, Michaels, Etc. I happen to buy a box anytime I go to Dick Blick for drafting tape.

[David Weaver]

I'm a high roller. I love love love my blue spruce marking knife. I love the thin-ness and springyness of the blade, the feel of the dense african blackwood (which is wonderful, a nice satin touch and even the thermal conduction/insulation of the wood feels good... maybe it reminds me of my high school clarinet? I don't know...), the shape of the handle under my fingers, and the beauty of the completely gratuitous crisply shaped ornament on the end. Like someone said, it's one of the most used shop tools, so why not love it?

http://www.bluesprucetoolworks.com/cgi/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SMK1

That's identical to the one that was given to me. It is probably blackwood also, I'm guessing it was. The guy who gave it to me had an entire dining room set made of african blackwood (he moved here from south africa). It's nice stuff. Makes for a spectacular table, chairs and sideboard.

[David Weaver]

just FYI: The holders, leads and sharpeners are readily available at Office Max, Office Depot, Staples, Michaels, Etc. I happen to buy a box anytime I go to Dick Blick for drafting tape.

Soon to be "the list of a thousand retailers", they are also available at Michaels, which seems to use the Rockler pricing model - it is worth going only if they give you a coupon, but some of their coupons are nutty - like 50%, and can make it worthwhile.

[george wilson]

African blackwood is a truly nasty wood to work!! It is a rosewood species that was prized for turning in the 18th. and 19th. C's,because it didn't dull ornamental turning tools like ebony did. Very difficult to plane,though,as it tears out.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

My local Staples carries them, but only seems to have one hardness of lead, so I usually swing by an art store, as I often prefer to have something harder or softer. I have an old Tru-Point lead pointer for mine, but it seems they're still available - trupoint.com. Those big heavy ones are nice; I've been meaning to pick up a variable taper one - sometimes being able to dial up the angle makes a more durable tip for wood; I've been using the built-in sharpener on one of my cases or sandpaper when I want a larger included angle on the lead tip.

(I mention the metal ones being nice, they are because of the heft; I believe the newer ones are plastic with a metal plate to add the weight - some of the older ones have a metal surface where the pencil sits, and that can chew up your collet after a while, so the plastic ones are actually better in some regards.

[Jim Koepke]

I only bought one package, I know wish I had got all three since they were so cheap, even though one will probably last me a really long time.

My worry about these things is what happens when my supply runs out? Will there be any available? So my reasoning is to buy more than what will likely be needed in my lifetime and leave it for my heirs to figure what to do with it. Who knows, maybe by then they will be selling for $5 a lead.

Maybe some day my old Rapido-Graph pens will be worth something...

jtk

[Zach Dillinger]

My worry about these things is what happens when my supply runs out? Will there be any available? So my reasoning is to buy more than what will likely be needed in my lifetime and leave it for my heirs to figure what to do with it. Who knows, maybe by then they will be selling for $5 a lead.

Maybe some day my old Rapido-Graph pens will be worth something...

jtk

I feel the same way about good quality wooden jointer planes. What will I do if I use mine up?? That's why I have more than a dozen...

[Russell Sansom]

I seem to be in the minority. I've preferred a more conventional double-sided knife with a short and very sharp thin point. I also prefer an oval handle because it helps my hand register to the cut. I'm ok with a pencil grip for shallow cross-grain marks on, say, poplar, but otherwise I want that firm "fist-grip" to keep the blade where it's supposed to go.

The steel proved to be the critical dimension in my knives. I was lucky that my grandfather paid close attention to keeping the temper in his tools, so I've been able to pick out a few of his old high-carbon blades that will keep a razor point for months of daily use. I've tried a few commercial spear-point knives but haven't found an ideal combination of sharp and sharpenable.

The long knife here is only practical for situations where I have to reach deeply. It's hard to bear down without putting a finger on the back of the blade itself, but for that deep dovetail or structure with large scantlings, it has no peer.

The crescent profile is a multi-tasker, marking and slicing. It has its uses but it is very dangerous...once it slices skin it only goes deeper as it proceeds. The crude looking knife is a stray piece of good steel with a handle I whittled 50-some years. This knife is still pulling its weight around the shop.

[george wilson]

Russel,your knife on the left has the blade shape of the German bench knife I've used since the 60's for carving and marking. When the blade wears out,I make another. I really like the knives of that pattern that Pfiel makes.

BUT,I ask you,WHAT could really be better than the PM blade marking knives that LV now sells? Maybe a bit of overkill(who's going to dull a marking knife???) But,I really like the PM steel. I'm not sure if they only offer them with plastic handles. I'd saw the handle off and make a wooden one just to get the blade. I think they are pretty inexpensive.

[Chris Griggs]

I think those plastic handled ones are A2... Or did I not notice something new come out? Either way, those really appeal to me - Inexpensive enough that you can buh a few and not worry about losing one. Wish I'd ordered the set of 3 when it was on special.

Russel your post is well timed!. I was just thinking that I have a couple of old quite small paring knives around and that I might grind them down to something similar to your pics.

[Jason Coen]

That's identical to the one that was given to me. It is probably blackwood also, I'm guessing it was. The guy who gave it to me had an entire dining room set made of african blackwood (he moved here from south africa). It's nice stuff. Makes for a spectacular table, chairs and sideboard.

That makes three of us.

:eek:

[Ryan Baker]

African blackwood is a truly nasty wood to work!! It is a rosewood species that was prized for turning in the 18th. and 19th. C's,because it didn't dull ornamental turning tools like ebony did. Very difficult to plane,though,as it tears out.

I don't recall ever planing blackwood, but it is a dream to turn. Much nicer than gaboon ebony. Cocobolo and rosewoods in general turn very nicely too. Feel free to send all your nasty blackwood my direction! :)

[george wilson]

I wanted to make guitar fingerboards from mine,but thickness sanding is the necessary route,it looks like! mine is about 3/8" thick,about 100 years old. I also have a 1/2 log about 5" in diameter. Came from a defunct company that made knife handles. I also got some planks of yew from them. I love yew wood. It looks soft,but is quite hard. What I have is rather wild grained. I'd love to make a long bow from it,but it is wild grained,and very old,too. I've made 3 deep throated fret saws from it. The first one was used to saw the marquetry guitar,and another I didn't make pictures of. It's throat was about 2' deep,to encompass the guitar's body. A tricky,rather heavy saw to use with 6/0 jeweler's saw blades(about .005" x .008" wide,I'd have to look it up). They were VERY thin and narrow,and would snap so easily. My wrist was in better shape back then!!!! Yew was about as light for its weight as I was going to get,though,and to have enough strength to hold a good,tight blade.

[John Coloccia]

I actually just did an African Blackwood fingerboard (haven't finished it yet). I doubt that anyone could distinguish it from ebony. I just bought it as a goof from LMII because I'd never used it before. Since I thickness sand all of my boards on my drum sander, I don't know how it planes. I notice, though, that LMII lists them as no longer available. I wonder if this wood is starting to disappear too?

[george wilson]

Ebony is really best for sustaining tone,but the blackwood is very pretty.

This statement may start a controversy!!:)

P.S.: I'll explain my reasoning; The string vibration wants to dissipate somewhere. It will do so at the peghead end or the bridge end. I have found a heavier peghead directs more of the vibration toward the bridge end. Ebony is hard and heavy,and it adds mass to the neck end.

There is always a lot of argument about fingerboard material. These are just my own reasons for preferring ebony.

[Matt Lau]

I've tried a bunch.

My favorite is a #11 vintage carbon blade Bard Parker in a #2 handle.