Next Step in the Journey?

[Roger Chandler]

People who pursue "excellence" are always looking ahead.....they cannot afford to dwell on the past much. In my "journey" in the turning side of woodworking, I have gone from beginning with some table legs, candlesticks, and a lamp or two. I began turning on a lathe somewhere along about 2004, and it was December of 2008 when I turned my first bowl........no chuck, no bowl gouges.........a faceplate and a spindle gouge and that turned out fairly well........that got me serious about turning.

Accumulation of tooling and skills have steadily increased, and I am to the point that I am pretty comfortable at the lathe, and yet I see that there are regions beyond where I am at currently..........that makes me wonder, what is the best path to "get there?"

I have considered taking a class at Arrowmont or John C. Campbell, but my responsibilties and limited time make it almost impossible for me to get away and devote a week or two to turning......usually some of these classes focus in on a certain aspect of turning or embellishment.........I am a bit of a purist who likes the natural beauty of the wood to speak for itself most of the time........even though as far as "art," embellishment seems to be the name of the game in recent years.

Would seeking out one on one mentoring be a good way to go the the "next level," or where do you think I can gain the most in this pursuit? More books, more videos?.........I will say that I got Malcolm Tibbet's book on segmenting and will be pursuing that when I can find some time to sit down and just digest the techniques he wrote of.

The observations of experienced turners on this matter would mean a lot to me..........I value the experience and accomplishments of my fellow "creekers" and know there is a lot of wisdom in the minds of this group.

[Mike Cruz]

Roger, odd for me to be the first to reply since you asked for opinions from experienced turners, but I do fit in the fellow Creeker catagory, so I'll give it a stab... ;)

Nothing, nothing, nothing takes the place of hand on "doing it". You can read books, watch videos, watch other turners. But until YOU do it (and likely do it a lot), you won't truely "get it". One on one mentoring and classes are a great idea. That way, you can ask for guidence in specific arenas that can help you to develop certain skills. I know, for me, that it is often a matter of being able to "see", so that I know what to do. Seeing someone else do something helps to figure out the process, but you have to be able to see it. You'll never get the perfect ogee if you can't envision it. Now, that doesn't mean that you'll be able to do it if you can see it, but doing it without being able to "see it" is difficult to imposible...at least for me.

If I were you, the first thing I'd do, is look at pics of the kind of stuff you'd like to make. Find a couple that interest you that don't seem too incredibly difficult. Sure, watch videos of someone doing something like it. But then get your hands dirty doing it. Now, you might want to start with sample wood, just in case it takes you 10 tries to "get it". Or use great wood the first time and what happens happens. But, if nothing else try to recreate what you've seen others do. If that doesn't do the trick, do the private classes or mentoring. Once you can copy other peoples work (even if it isn't exactly), put your own spin on it.

Most of what I said isn't new news to you. But seeing me write it might reenforce what you may have already been thinking.

[David DeCristoforo]

One thing I have learned is that there is absolutely no point in reinventing the wheel. Mike is correct in saying that there is nothing better than "doing it". But if you can do it under the watchful eye of those who "know how", so much the better. So if you have the time and the dough, taking some classes from someone who has already mastered the necessary techniques will get you farther down the road faster.

[Roger Chandler]

Another thought came to mind as I pondered this quest.......should I broaden my efforts to learn how to do more things, or narrow down my efforts and concentrate on doing one or two things to a really high degree of execution? You know the old saying......"jack of all trades and master of none" ......well, folks who are multi-skilled are valuable, but rarely reach a status of "master of the craft."

This is part of the search I guess.......knowing what to pursue.....:confused:

[Tony De Masi]

Roger, I think both Mike and David have not only given great advice, but I think you already knew it as well. I was turning for a few years and was progressing slowly. I was having some issues with a continuous curve on the outside of a bowl. So I took a two day class with Bill Grumbine. Learn a lot? Sure did. Learn how to do a better curve on the outside of a bowl? Sure did. But it was NOTHING that you would have picked up by watching his video. It had to do with foot positioning. He simply changed my stance and all was better. So, IMO, think real hard about what it is you really want to learn, search for those who can help, and go for it.

[charlie knighton]

Roger, when turners are brought in to demo at club meetings, many times they hold turning session with 5 to 8 turners. this is less expensive than one on one, but very helpful. smith mtn woodturners have some major turners scheduled, check them out. i believe the blue ridge woodturners had Ashley do a all day training class for $100, which is a deal.

[David E Keller]

You've been turning longer than I have, so I'm not sure my input is what you're after... Of course, my ignorance has never stopped me from offering advice!:D

Take a course... For me, it was Clewes, and I had a blast. There are lots of great teachers out there, so find someone nearby or someone you've always admired. Going to demos is not the same... Seeing is good, but doing is learning.

As to whether to broaden or narrow your focus, I'm not sure that's so important. I think it's more about learning and mastering the basic techniques. Sort of like the guitar... You could memorize how to play a song, but I think you'd be better off learning the chords... Then you can write your own music!

If you want to become 'known', I think doing variations on a single theme might be helpful. If you want to become a better turner, I believe it's more about mastering the techniques.

[Thom Sturgill]

I'll echo those who recommend tutoring. I took a weekend class in spindle turning and had a day-long hands on with David Ellsworth and a handful of our club members. I have watched (and own) a fair library of books and DVDs. Just as a book cannot adequately show you tool presentation, a DVD cannot correct your posture.

As to diversity vs specialization, I have gone the diversity route as I feel a need to master the field before I develop a 'signature' style or form. I have seen others (here on SMC) go the other route and quickly settle into a signature form and be VERY successful. I do not (YET) try to sell, so that affects my decision. While I have become known in our club for the variety of forms I have produced, I am now coming to the point where I feel a need to repeat forms until I can do them consistently and understand the impact of various changes. As a result, these forms have changed, improved, and are beginning to take on 'signature' aspects while the 'artistic' aspects have attained new levels. So while making a functional, pleasing pepper grinder is OK, now I want to improve the form and make a functional, artistic pepper grinder, or pen, or vase, or box, or whatever..

[BILL DONAHUE]

Roger, There's been some good advice on here so far. I've been to Campbell School three times and each time felt guilty and regretful about leaving (I'm a financial advisor & busy) but felt it was well worth it afterwards. A week, or more precisely five days, of intense training that usually runs from 9am to 9:30 pm (if you want it to) accelerates the learning process immensely. You're not only spending all of that time learning but you're eliminating the learning of bad habits and getting experience that otherwise might take years. I also found that under the watchful eyes of the instructors I was more likely to stretch and take chances on more complex things that I otherwise wouldn't have risked. My experience was somewhat unusual in that I took an advanced class in hollowed forms at Campbell after having made only 4 pens and 6 bowls on a mini lathe. The learning curve was steep and fortunately the other students helped alot. Years ago I begged my way into an underwater photography course for professional photographers and it was a terrific experience that taught me the value of stretching one's abilities.

[Jeff Nicol]

So far many, many good bits of advice, and we all have something that works for us that may never work for another. When I really got back into turning in late 2004 all I wanted was to spin wood and try as many things as I could. In the beginning all I had was a basic set of older Craftsman tools that I attempted to do things that they were not meant to do. So a bowl gouge, scraper and a good skew was added to the mix and my skills grew with the mastering of each new tool. By understanding each tool and finding where the "Sweet" spot is for you with each of them through lots of practice and mistakes that clear up some of their mysteries. Of course for every rule there can be found by someone a way to use a tool in such a way that new and intriquing methods are developed which lead to a new tool and then the learning begins again. This keeps us all looking for the elusive "Perfect" curve or symmetry or proportions that have appealed to the eye of so many collectors over the decades.

With all that being said, it is always good to be able to spend some time with someone who has mastered the type or types of turning you are yearning to bring into your repertoire of turning skills, this can be done one on one or in a group setting where others are there for the same reason that you are, and they may have different ways of looking at things that can be learned along with the skills and guidance of the instructor, thus helping you to learn additional knowledge free along the way. What I have learned while showing folks my methods, that when a helping hand that can guide the tool to a correct angle, tweak your stance etc lets the student feel when the tool is cutting at it's best and it does not feel like the tool and lathe are fighting you as you make the cut. This then can be found again as the student practices with the tool.

Practice and turning a lot of different forms will help with the next form that you want to try, because all of the cuts and curves are used somewhere in all turning, and can be put together to create what you are looking for. Some have a natural eye for how to create the beauty in wood that is all around us in nature, and then many have to put extra effort into some study of a form or style to be able to get it out of the blank. So do some technical sketches and use a template to guide you to getting the curves correct and eventually after time your muscle memory will allow you to repeat the movements of your hands and body.

Good luck and it will work its way out in time,

Jeff

[Curt Fuller]

Roger, we all learn in different ways I suppose. I had some one on one instruction a few years ago from a guy that has been a demonstrator at the Utah Symposium, has turned professionally for nearly 40 years, and is in my opinion as good as they get. But it was the most frustrating turning experience I've ever had. I should have learned so much from him but my own hard headed stubborness turned the experience into a nightmare. I just couldn't do things the way he did them. There are so many different approaches to how you hold a tool, how you work the wood. If you're having problems with the actual technique then some one on one learning will probably help you. But if you're trying to move your work to another level artistically then you need to study or watch someone that inspires you with their creativity rather than their technique. I don't mean to come across sounding snobbish, but I usually ignore threads on the forums that deal with which tool is best or what's the best way to make a certain cut, the technique threads. I've learned to use the tools I have by using them and I've learned that there's a way to do about anything if you work at it, but there is almost always more than one way to do it too. Someone else might think I've lost my marbles if they watched me turn, but my ways work for me and that's really all that matters. But from an artistic standpoint I've learned everything I know from observing the work I've seen here at SMC and on other forums. I look at the pictures everyday, looking not just at the finished product but imagining what the wood looked like before they turned it, where it came from on the tree, how they oriented it on the lathe. Over time you latch onto certain other turners work that you really like. Then it seems like you actually try copying it. But in the process of copying you naturally throw your own influences and nuances into it and sometimes it works, sometimes it gets tossed. You get to a point where you can kick off the training wheels but you never get to the point where something you see doesn't have an impact on your own work and steer you into something new. That's the beauty of woodturning...unless you're doing production work to exacting specifications, every piece is the next step in the journey.

[Roger Chandler]

Wow! I must say ........I am impressed by the wisdom of my fellow turners.........each post thoughtful, measured, and my question taken seriously.............all to which I say a hearty "thank you!!!" You each one have given me food for thought.....I realize that I need to define what I am after and as has been the case in most of my endeavors in life, I have been one that has pretty much found my own path..........not that there were not helps or mentors along the way, but I had to find the "fit" for myself.

Many of your comments have resonated in my spirit......if I tried in this post to elaborate on each one that sparked a note with me......this would cease to be a post and turn into a book, so I will spare you all that reading. Just want you to know that your wisdom, acquired from your experiences and years of pursuing your goals in this craft are a valuable asset to me.....I totally agree with DD's comment......"no need to re-invent the wheel" ......that is the "WHY" of my question.....life is too short to have to stumble around in the dark, when there are many who have lighted the way ahead of you!

My sincerest appreciation to you all!

[Mike Cruz]

I can't remember the last thead that gave such in depth replies to a question. Great thread, Roger. Great replies, all. I actually read all of them!

[Thomas Canfield]

Rpger,

Today I "helped" my 11 year old granddaughter turn some pens. She has turned a pen a year for the last 3 or 4 years with a lot of help, and I started out giving a fair amount of help at first. She ended up turning 5 pens and the last one she did with very little assistance from me. All that said, there is a lot to be gained from the repetition of doing the same thing over and over and getting the practice. I would like to be able to have her just work on some 2x2 spindle material to see what she would do on her own.

I did watch a lot of DVDs and demonstrators before I had any real success turning, and that success came after getting a sharpening system for sharp tools (consistent edge on bowl gouges really helps), turning a lot of rough turn green bowls (6 or more at one time), and even turning some 2x6 material. You can get a lot of good practice turning bowls out of 2x6 material because the wood is usually such that a sharp tool is required to get a decent cut and you also pratice sharpening. I like to use a worm screw in my chuck to start a bowl and turn a tenon on the bottom. You can glue on a waste block to the 2x6 to gain more depth, or just glue a couple sections together since they are really just practice material. Green wood is even better to practice on since there is less dust and when you get those long shavings coming off, you are really hooked. Finding a local turning club and a mentor is also one of the best sources for help.

[Roger Chandler]

Rpger,



I did watch a lot of DVDs and demonstrators before I had any real success turning, and that success came after getting a sharpening system for sharp tools (consistent edge on bowl gouges really helps), turning a lot of rough turn green bowls (6 or more at one time), and even turning some 2x6 material. You can get a lot of good practice turning bowls out of 2x6 material because the wood is usually such that a sharp tool is required to get a decent cut and you also pratice sharpening. I like to use a worm screw in my chuck to start a bowl and turn a tenon on the bottom. You can glue on a waste block to the 2x6 to gain more depth, or just glue a couple sections together since they are really just practice material. Green wood is even better to practice on since there is less dust and when you get those long shavings coming off, you are really hooked. Finding a local turning club and a mentor is also one of the best sources for help.

Thanks Thomas! ;):)

[Jamie Donaldson]

I am a firm believer that quality hands-on instruction is a sure path to rapidly improving skills in just about anything we attempt. That's how I began my career in photography after dropping out of a career path in medicine, so when I began turning 25 yrs. ago I quickly realized the path to proficiency was to learn by studying with others more skilled than myself. When the interest in turning was rekindled, after starting in high school shop class in 1959, I took my first class at the Campbell Folk School in 1986. When I exhausted my knowledge in a certain area of interest, I would select a specific teacher to broaden my skills, and shorten the learning process significantly under their tutelage. I've been fortunate to be able to learn turning from many teachers like Oland, Ellsworth, Osolnik, Key, Escoulen, Jordan, Fleming, Sanders, and several others that I don't recall at the moment. I've attended numerous regional symposia, 13 AAW Symposia, including 5 as a demonstrator, and have now been instructing at the Folk School for the past 10 yrs. Rude always said we learn to turn by standing at the lathe, but it helps to know what we want to do and how to safely and efficiently accomplish it!

[Steve Schlumpf]

Roger - I have enjoyed reading all the advice! Great thread!

Like you, I have considered taking a class someday but the time, travel and expense seem overwhelming - at least for now. One thing, in addition to what the others have suggested, is to find out what it is you want to turn. It is hard to narrow that down but there must be something out there in the wide world of turning that stirs your imagination. Figure that out... then figure out who does it best in the style that you want to learn. Chances are you can learn a lot from viewing that person's work online or in person. One other thing to remember is that we are all turners... and love to hear from other turners. I am willing to bet that if you emailed that individual, they would be willing to critique your work and offer tips to help you grow. I know that worked for me and from turners that most folks probably never would think of approaching!

Like everyone else has said - you have to do the work (turning) in order to improve. Help is there when you need it... but you have to be at a point in your development that the advice given can be built upon. Hope that makes sense, but all too often we see turners post their first bowl and ask for a critique. Until they turn a bunch of them and get comfortable with the process, tips on form and embellishing are meaningless... IMO.

Have fun with everything! It's all good!

[Bernie Weishapl]

Roger thanks for the post and question. Very enlightening.

[Michael Stafford]

I started out being a self taught turner. The main problem with that scenario is that you are limited by the skills of the teacher and the ability of the student to learn. Sounds facetious but it is very true. I learned a lot from videos and books but not enough. I don't believe I would have ever learned how to back hollow from a written description whereas a few minutes with a good teacher, Richard Raffan, helped me to do the cut.

If I had it to do all over again I would start by taking a basic turning skills class with someone who specializes in teaching skills. Alan Leland, who teaches at John C. Campbell is one of the finest basic skill teachers I have encountered. Every time I have had the opportunity to be around him I have learned so much.

I have been taking classes under various instructors at John C. Campbell every year since 2004 and have had classes with Jamie Donaldson, Frank Penta, the late Ed Moore, Don Russell, Nick Cook and Alan Leland when he was assisting Frank. I cannot begin to express how much I learned from each of these gentlemen and how much their instruction improved my skills. The subtle nuances of presentation and hand positions can make a huge difference in the quality of cut and finish of a piece. A good instructor can observe you while you are cutting and offer advice which can have a profound effect on the quality of your turnings and your skill levels.

Another reason I recommend classes is that members of the class will almost always have something to offer that will help you improve. In my classes I try to find out what particular skills my students have and if they are willing allow them to do mini demonstrations so they can share those skills with the class.

Workshops, hands on sessions, break out sessions are another way to improve ones skills. Wood turning is a craft that one can continue to learn for a lifetime.

On my bucket list are classes with Jimmy Clewes, Richard Raffan and Ray Key. I doubt I will ever be able to take a class with these gentlemen but having had the opportunity to spend some time observing each of them I know they have a lot to teach me about turning.

[Michelle Rich]

remember this is opinion & worth what you paid for it:

First, If it were me, I would set a goal. i.e., I want to make _______. then I would find a way to get it done. When I was happy with that, i'd get a new goal & pursue that. I say this, as your description is all over the map. You have a goal of "next level". what the heck is that?
I learned the hardest way possible. From myself. I am a horrible teacher! There were few books, few tools, no support for women to pursue the art. (that is putting it mildly..I was spit on in one store) No videos, no Youtube, no forums on the internet. In some ways this was to my benefit. I had no idea what was & was not possible. In other ways it was horrendous. I suppose today it shows in my negative space designs, as they look like they are made one way, and they are not. I've had to think outside the box so much, that it has become 2nd nature.
Figure out the road you want to take & the goal at the end, and plow forward and achieve it in the manner that best suits you.

[Mike Cruz]

Like everyone else has said - you have to do the work (turning) in order to improve. Help is there when you need it... but you have to be at a point in your development that the advice given can be built upon. Hope that makes sense, but all too often we see turners post their first bowl and ask for a critique. Until they turn a bunch of them and get comfortable with the process, tips on form and embellishing are meaningless... IMO.



Steve, you hit on a very important point here. For me, I know that advancement and growth rely on building skills. I knew that, for me, I needed to "know" my tools with simple things like bowls (with simple curves) before what I could call advancing to hollow forms. Some don't see HFs as necessarily advancing. I do. A bowl has an inside and an outside. You can see both. You can always see your tool. You can always see your work. Usually, the outside curve is one curve. HFs, in general, not only have an outside, but that outside consists of multiple curves, transitions, placements of transitions, necks, finials, AND then you need to hollow them out. And THAT takes feel. Feel is not something you can be taught. You have to learn it from experience. Now that I am getting into HFs, I can "feel" what the tip of the tool is doing, even though I can't see it. I can tell when the inside is getting full of shavings. Something I wouldn't have been able to do right after starting turning. And I knew, for me, that I was ready to do HFs when I got to the point that I didn't have to think about my tool presentation when I approached the lathe. I just grabbed it and went at the wood. Each of us is different. We advance at different rates. But your point that you have to be in the position to understand that next move or growth NEEDS to be there. Otherwise, sure you can go through the motions with someone watching over you, but I don't believe you will actually learn and be able to duplicate it on your own.

[John Keeton]

Roger, looks like you are getting some great response!! Good topic.

Having viewed your work, it would seem to me that you have the tool skills to turn just about anything. Having watched Raffan, Clewes, and others in person, they all have catches, etc. While some may have a better stance, approach to the wood, grip, etc., most of those nuances work for that person, and may or may not work for the next. I don’t think I have seen anyone with the fluidity of Stuart Batty, and he is mesmerizing to listen to. But, I am not sure a particular method of moving the tool that works for someone that is much taller than me, with more weight, etc., or someone that turns bowl after bowl, will necessarily work for me at 5’ 7”, and without much desire for turning bowls.

I say all that to suggest that an intensive study of design considerations - curves, form, proportions, flow, etc., would benefit you perhaps more than anything. In doing that, you may well discover another avenue of turning that attracts you. I never really cared for the vase forms, but since doing the cremation urns, I have developed a fondness for them. Interestingly, after doing a recent sketch, I wondered how closely it conformed to a true catenary curve. I have studied that form, a lot, but have never bothered to actually take a piece of lightweight chain and drape it over one of my sketches. Amazingly, my drawing was within an 1/8” of being dead on. I love that curve, and being able to achieve it on paper without a mechanical aid, and then in wood, was a significant accomplishment for me.

Others views notwithstanding, I believe the “really good forms” come from our Creator. The catenary, the ogee, the various forms of mathematical accelerating curves, the nautilus – Pythagoras and Fibonacci and others didn’t “create” those forms, they simply discovered the amazingly predictable math behind the curves and numerical successions. These curves and the underlying mathematics comprise the natural order of our world. It is up to us to discover them, and then learn to combine them in an aesthetically pleasing form with proper proportion.

In my opinion, and that is all it is, there is a stark difference between being able to replicate what someone teaches you – duplicating a particular curve, as in a hemispherical bowl, and being able to create a three dimensional object that is instantly pleasing to those that view it.

In order to accomplish that, It would seem that first, one must be able to visually recognize good form. Most can, but not all. Then, one must be able to transfer that mental image to paper – some can, but perhaps most cannot. The final step is to then take that form to an artistic medium – wood, clay, etc., and produce a three dimensional object. Few can, the majority simply cannot. All are blessed with talents, just not all have the same talents. Whether one has the ability to create beautiful flowing curves is arguably an inherent talent and simply not learnable. It may be hidden, not yet discovered and yet subject to development.

So, get a sketch pad, some sharp #2 pencils, a Pink Pearl eraser, and spend a few hours drawing curves and forms! It is amazing what it will do for your work. Duplicating the sketch in wood is another challenge, but with calipers and patience, it can easily be done by someone with your tool skills.

Then, to John C. Campbell. Look over the curriculum and see if there is something that interests you. You will love the experience, and your wife can probably find a course that interests her during the same week. It is a wonderful place, great food, and good fellowship. I really wouldn’t mind spending 3-4 weeks a year there!!

[Mike Cruz]

Great break down and advice, John. This is a much more in depth explanation of what I meant when I said that you have to be able to "see" what you want to do. I just couldn't articulate it like you did.

Also, one thing I've noticed about me, is that I reach a certain skill level in a certain discipline, and I level out. I get good, but I don't get great. I've gotten my golf handicap down to a 9. In recreational ski racing, I'm in the top 5% or so. But I will likely never get any better than that in either one. And while I haven't yet plateaued yet in turning, there will come a time when what I do is as good as I'll be able to do. And there is one major reason/factor... I generally speaking am not willing to do what it takes to improve past that point! That last little bit to becoming "great" takes a lot of study and hard work. Now, let me explain... I ENJOY golf. I ENJOY ski racing. I ENJOY turning. To get past my plateau, it becomes work to me. And it loses its "fun". I never like school. I only went (and yes graduated) college because my mom was willing to pay for it, and I was smart enough to know that shouldn't pass that up. I hated learning...learning when it went beyond what I was interested in really knowing. It just isn't what drives me. There are a LOT of people that LOVE learning. They are sponges. They could sit and listen to demos, DVDs, read books, do research...no me. But that, fortunately or unfortunately, is what will keep me from becoming GREAT at anything.

While I respect John for not only knowing the curves, but knowing the names of the curves, etc (and I've heard Keller speak like that too), I find it fascinating, but know that I have no interest pursuing the learning of them. Now, eventually, I might learn them by doing, and happenstance. But I won't seek out the knowledge of them and their application.

This may or may not, depending on who YOU are, aide or impede you journey in turning...

[Bill Hensley]

I'm another attendee of John C. Campbell Folk School, up to that point I was self taught. I went with the intention of learning tips and tricks to get me beyond my current level. As Steve mentioned above, you need a foundation to build upon. Only then will you appreciate and get the most out of what the instructor is offering.

The instructors recognized our individual skill levels and challenged us to do things to get us outside our comfort zone. Is it pricey, yep! Is it worth it? Absolutely! You get a week of total immersion and our instructors were good about opening the shop early and keeping it open in the evenings after dinner. You'll get out of it what you are willing to put into it.

Funny thing about the class was you quickly learn to make do with a basic set of turning tools. I soon realized I've bought way more tools than I really need.

[Joe Bradshaw]

Roger, as several others in this thread have mentioned, John C. Campbell Folk School is great for intensive training. Five days of almost one on one training with world class turners. No distractions(radio, television)just turning. Plus it is summer camp for adults.